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On April 19 2010 22:31 Ghardo wrote:if only random players were allowed to vote (in theory) it would be even more representative. most people tend to be quite egoistical about their own race and its standing / balance 
True that, people will always deny that their own race is overpowered, and whine at the other races.
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Reduce marauder range by 1 IMO. I say that'd fix it.
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Too many people are still thinking in Broodwar terms (I am, too, to be perfectly honest) and too many people are complaining about things instead of adapting.
Prime examples are roach/hydra got nerfed we heard a HUGE cry by zergplayers since their primary a-move strategy has become harder. Or Terran having trouble with Immortals until they figured out that EMP is quite a good counter.
There are still many balance issues but they should be adressed SLOWLY... e.g. stalker vs marauder, phoenix, archons, the whole mech issue, the new infestor they are thinking about etc pp. I hope they really take their time and really, REALLY make up their own mind on how to fix things since 90% of the suggestions I read in the blizzard boards are just... let's say they will bring back issues already solved.
Back2topic:
To my personal experience Zerg is by far the easiest race from the very beginning. It's pure mechanics and even now it works well up to platinum for many players. Once the skill level in average rises, this will propably become the easy to learn - hard to master race as protoss was in SC:BW.
I kinda refuse to tell who is harder to play since my main race is Protoss and for now I tested more Zerg than Terran to get an idea of the other races. Protoss is definately hard to play in terms that your decisions will be stuck with you for a long range of time plus Protoss has almost no propper defense (canons and FF thats it - and who the f... wants to nerf this one as well again?) while Terran can "adapt" while using their strong defense (thor vs air, turrets, planetary fortress, bunkers and slowing marauders to name a few). Warpgates require a lot more effort in macroing (no cueing) tough Terran also has a hard time to differ the addons given to them. So as you see, I'm not that sure about that.
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I play random mid range platinum, have watched hundreds of replay of all latest tournaments and my feelings are:
1) Zerg Macro mechanic are the easiest to play, spaw larva timing is very easy to get used to and even if you're not a pro you can have one queen at each hatch for insane production capability late game. Creep tumor is very very powerful and still underused in my opinion, does require some good mechanics but the sight it gives and move speed is insane (people should start and do creep cleanup). Overlord creep is kinda imba with the speed upgrade.
Combat wise, zerg is clearly NOT the easiest race to play. Spamming (wisely) force field is not hard and it gives an insane advantage. Hit & Run with stimmed marauders is not hard and it gives an insane advantage. Flanking IS hard to set-up, its not just a combat gimmick, it needs preparation. I just love people saying its A-Move and win. Well unfortunately A-Moving into a protoss or terran blob is sure death.
2) Protoss vs Terran is the match-up I understand the least. At my level protoss ground demolishes terran, good unit placement, immortals and guardian shield from sentries and warp gate production is just doom for the terran. Only very late game with a big blob and upgrades does terran get the advantage, and even then, psi-storm is such a pain to take care of. On the other hand, Banshees harass into mass banshees is insanely powerful mid and late game for terran and stalker blink doesn't cut-it (even more so on maps with lots of high ground (e.g Kulas Ravine). At high level, I find protoss having the advantage, once again because its ground is just too good early / mid game. EMP is all the shit but if the toss has 4 groups of units, its not that easy to pull off early game. Immortal transition to high templar seems to give the edge to protoss in that match-up
3) TVZ seems very very balanced and interesting with different options for terran (helion to marauder and m&m&m or helion to thor with the newest thor-drop technique or helion/reaper to banshee) as well as for zerg (baneling bust, speedling/baneling muta, hydra to roach / hydra). I love this match-up from both sides ! At a "pro" level though I find it very strange that zerg players lose late game vs terran blob (i.e at one point of critical medivac count, marauder / medivac blob just wins vs roach/hydra even at upgrade parity) without even trying either to harass with drops or to make the teck switch to broodlords which switch back the balance towards zerg (though anticipating the switch as terran can be very cost effective with viking being so strong anti-"big"air).
4) PVZ is the one I played the most and enjoy it quite a bit but there are less options then TVZ. Protoss harass into FE is very strong on some maps and the critical timing push is always a challenge for zerg to hold (which I find interesting overall). Now it seems the latest trend for zerg is to build a million sunken in that match-up and harass with there very strong mobility (speedlings / muta) before winning the macro war. That doesn't bother me too much eventhough I would like to have some epic battles as in BW with multiple flanks and storms everywhere but it seems protoss blob is a bit too strong nowadays (colossus / sentry combo is insane vs ground)
5) ZVZ is the worst match-up by far...TVT and PVP have some opportunities and have changing meta-games (mainly because the "killer" unit is higher teck : colossus / banshee or viking). In ZVZ, apart from some "nice" speedlings / banelings matchs on some maps, it always comes down to roaches / hydra sim-city style with both players building there army for the BIG encounter. Quite boring overhole.
As a final word, there are some things that bother me (perma force field in ramp for example which "feels" very very imbalanced) but overall the game is very well balanced, it could be improved though with some changes to bring some units into the game (for instance, phoenix are just plain bad except vs mutalisks, why not try and buff the phoenix even more vs mutalisks and nerf the sentry attack (not its spells, just the attack) so that protoss gets a good anti-air solution and isn't getting the same army composition every single game whether the zerg goes ground or air...
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I personally have problems in PvT, marauders are raping all my units except immortals, but usually the amount of immortals is not that big. If T goes air, i am very weak against it. What to use against Terran's mass air? Stalkers are too weak, if he adds small ground army to his ball.
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On April 19 2010 20:56 rewsky wrote:
For reference, I'm in Bronze so a lot of my opinion may be off, but I played Terran every match and would win about one or two for every one match I lost.
I have since switched to Toss and suddenly I've won 7 games in a row and am now in Silver.
I know that it is fundamentally wrong to think of one race as overpowered against the others, as there is always something you could have done better as a player to secure your win, but let me explain why I may be having an easier time with Toss.
In their tech tree there isn't a whole lot of diversity necessary to scout AND build tier 2 units. One building allows you to build observers, arguably one of the best scouting units in the game, and immortals, which absolutely destroy units with hardened shield and +30 bonus to armored units. Then, if ground units got ya down, just grab some colossus.
The only thing they lack is anti-air, but I'm not convinced that this is much of a problem considering the amount of pressure they can put on other players early game, requiring people to stall their builds and make defensive units. With enough scouting, a good banshee rush should be spotted and easily countered with 4 stalkers and an observer. The observer comes out just as the first banshee comes out, so it shouldn't be an issue for toss.
Also - forcefield is incredibly useful because it can be used right out of the box and is indestructible. It can push a lot of units such as roaches out of range as well. It is excellent for defense on ramps, offensive separation of units, and it's just a perk that they do so much damage.
The downside is that Toss units are extremely expensive, but less units that are stronger may mean easier micro for people, which is why they appear to be so good.
I think Toss is a very strong match to play against right now, but not impossible. I've been winning as them, but I wonder if that's because of how much more scouting I do thanks to observers, or if the culmination of all of my previous points make it an easier race for me to manage.
Sounds like you are heavily micro intensive player. Toss in sc2 are more micro intensive and as Terran you need to do a lot of harass (but you know Terran probably has the most strategies to harass other races). Also as Terran you are harshly punished for not macroing properly. Toss or Zerg can pop up units faster than Terran (damn u reactor nerf! we were still behind producing more units and you do this to us T_T). If you work on your macro game more you will be able to do very well.
Two more points to add.
One
Is it just me or is the theme of each race for sc2 are
Terran: Harass and Harass more
Protoss: Micro and Micro better
Zerg: MACRO like Idra does on friday night
Two
The poll, "which do you think is the most powerful race?", has coherency with the whine poll on play xp site.
http://playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
pink =zerg
green = terran
blue = toss
purple = no race is UPed
Of course the whine poll is to see which is the weakest race but the poll's numbers are reciprocal to the poll here. Good to know Koreans are on the same wave length with the TL.net community
I'm Korean and I approve of this topic.
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I think toss is by far the easiest race to play.. Zerg is not even close. I think the people that say zerg is must have never played it. U need alot of macro to keep up, and zerg win by taking over the map and getting lots of expos which having a ton of bases greatly increases ur macro. Also balancing ur econ and units isn't that easy.
And if u think Zerg is the most powerful race ur funny. This is not 3 patches ago. Roach nerf made them worthless besides being a meat shield of 80hp hydras..
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On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:
...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O
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On April 19 2010 20:30 Beyonder wrote:
Very interesting results already :D So far it isn't really positive for terran it seems? I wonder if this is due to it needing more creative play, making it both harder and averagely worse.
I think you should be careful with the results you get from the polls. Something that should never go out of mind is that the majority of people voting aren't good, and the polls only show what people believe, not any actual circumstance.
Also, I believe you should have added a couple extra polls for the "easiest race to play," because the easiest race to play at the noob level is, let's be honest here, Protoss. Is Protoss the easiest race to play in the mid-level? The upper-level? Those are different polls imo.
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I like that you ask which race is favored in mirror matches. That made me smile.
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On April 19 2010 23:46 wbz0rn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:
...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O
Exactly what I was thinking.. Automatically responding with Z when u see who is the most powerful ftl.
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On April 19 2010 23:46 wbz0rn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:
...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O
I think what he's saying is lack of tools to handle MMM ball during the early and mid timing pushes. Late game Zerg is still dominant, against toss or terran.
Dominance
From my experience, when I'm not doing anything creative
TvZ
Early game - Terran: (reapers' ability to deny FEs)
Mid game - Terran: (MMM ball)
Late game - Zerg: (Broodlords + Hydras, hydras + infestors or any other mass + support)
TvP
Early game - Terran: (reaper + marauders are making a comeback, marauders are still answer to toss' ground force)
Mid game - Even: there is the immortal push but if Terran survives Terran can medivac push back
Late game - Toss by a small margin: favoured but ever so slightly. I guess warpgate and chronoboost mechanics are far superior to mule mechanics end game.
When I'm protoss
PvZ
Early game - Protoss: Immortals pushes aren't very effective but still can apply early pressure and have option to deviate to voidrays
Mid game - Zerg, very slightly: Mutas or hydralisks, they are both good
Late game - Zerg: Broodlords, possibly with muta or hydra support
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In my biased opinion as a Zerg player, I find Zerg to be the weakest race when two competent players face each other.
One of the primary reasons for this is that Zerg units are simply less cost efficient. Take the Hydralisk for instance and compare it to the Marine. An unupgraded Hydra deals 2.07 times as much dps as a Marine against a 0 armor target (2.28 as much against 1 armor, 2.59 against 2 armor and 3.11 against 3 armor). Hydras cost at least three times as much (since gas is almost always more precious than minerals), so unless your opponent is way ahead in upgrades, Marines provide more cost effective dps.
What about durability? Well, if we compare 1 Hydra to 3 Marines, the Terran loses 1/3 of his dps after receiving 45 damage (putting him slighty behind the hydra dps), then after receiving 80 damage the hydra dies, which means the zerg player loses all of his dps, while the two of the Terran Marines are still alive. Marines win this round, too. The only advantage the Hydra has here is being slightly less susceptible to aoe/splash.
Now what about upgrades? The Hydra gets +1 damage per attack upgrade, so does the Marine, which is obviously much stronger for the Marine. Stimpack and Combat Shields is also much, much more useful than a lousy +1 range upgrade.
So we can conclude that Terrans most basic unit is actually significantly stronger than the most important tier 2 unit for Zerg.
Now don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly fine for Zerg units to be somewhat less cost-efficient, because Zerg's superior production (due to Queens and the ability to instantly switch between drone production and unit production) makes up for it. However, Zerg benefits the least from good micro, so a platinum Zerg's Roach Hydra army is only slightly more powerful than the same army controlled by a Bronze or Silver player. On the other hand, both T and P profit massively from good micro, making their armies so much more cost-effective that a Zerg simply cannot keep up without having a significantly stronger economy.
However, securing that economic advantage is very difficult, as both Terran and Protoss have many dangerous timing pushes available, as well as a number of tech rushes (such as Banshees or Void Rays) and preparing for all of those AND securing a sizeable economic lead simply cannot be done.
Due to those reasons, I think that at the platinum level, P>T>Z, at the gold level all races are about equal and in silver and below, Z>P=T.
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I don't understand how everyone says zerg has the easiest macro mechanic. They have the least forgiving one. With zerg, every second of spawn larva that you miss you are losing production. With terran, all you have to do is just spam mules or scans, with nothing lost. With protoss, you can just chrono boost all your gateways when you're producing.
The point I'm trying to get at is that the zerg macro mechanic is the only one which has a "cooldown". If you miss some kind of timing with protoss/terran, you still have energy left over to use it on other things. With zerg, all you can do with the extra energy is lay down a creep tumor which while helpful pales in comparison to having a forgiving macro mechanic(especially considering overlords already spew creep).
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1350+ point Plat protoss (before the reset)
Strongest Race: Protoss
Reason: The only thing protoss lacks right now is a hard anti-air counter. Apart from that protoss are insanely strong and all fronts. Early game stalkers/immortals/sentry rule the battlefield, and later on Colossi and Templar just cements the domination. They're not unbeatable, but I feel like they're the strongest race right now. (Also I'm basing this on the fact that I was just a C level protoss player in SC1 and I was sporting close to a 70% win rate before the reset, even at plat)
Favored in TvZ: No idea. Yet to play a single game as either race and I've only watch a few TvZ.
Favored in TvP: Protoss.
Reasons: - Unless T goes for 6/10 rax reaper harass protoss has map control in the early game.
- 4 gate warp rush/3-4 immortal pushes are neigh unbeatable if you FE as terran making that nearly undoable.
- P can quite safely expand and still fend off most rushes T can throw at you.
- Immortal drops are ridiculously strong against Marauders, the backbone of nearly every terran army..
- Storm/Colossi tear through MMM so easily
Favored in ZvP: Even or slightly Z favored.
Reason: I was tempted to write Z favored here, but the discovery of the Nazgul 10 pylon/10 gate -> chrono zeal harass -> expo has really turned this match-up around for me. It allows you to deal early damage and expand (provided you deal enough damage with your zeals) something giving you both an economic and military advantage if done correctly. Good Zs will not allow you to do much damage, but many Zs tend to overling and thus suffer economic damage as a result.
Z still has unbelievably strong tech switches: opening 14 pool -> 15 hatch -> roach -> muta is such a strong play, and I have trouble dealing with the mutas even though I know they're coming, since my army is based mostly around immortals to counter the roaches. Even if I fend off the mutas Z has expanded once of twice putting me behind. The build is counterable though, if I hit the timing where Zs spire is nearly done, and his saving larvae for mutas.
I feel good Z's beat good Ps most of the time, and since I think Z has a slight edge in this matchup.
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I feel this poll is going to be a bad idea because people are going to start quoting it for balance and it grossly oversimplifies matchups. Just take PvZ, the ~4 gate push no robotics can be deadly if you can time it vs their lair and roach count, but then most P's flounder in the mid-late game unless they did significant damage, especially since many people are unwilling to massgame FE openings on the ladder since they are perceived to be more vulnerable since P hasn't figured out how to gauge the # of Z units well. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of protoss wins in PvZ occur from warpgate rushes, and the majority of losses occur from a mass warpgate strategy dying to heavy ling/roach/hydra or FE's falling to zerg's macro advantage and mass muta switches.
Similarly in PvT many Terrans at the end of the last patch were relying on 1-2 barracks marauder expansions, and from my experience among top EU platinums some still haven't adjusted as well to the pressure builds of P which got more effective since you can see quite easily what T is doing with stalkers now. But I wouldn't say either side has a major advantage now, it's too early to tell.
This is like polling a bunch of D players on the balance of broodwar.
(and yes, I play protoss, 1850/2200 after/before reset.)
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I feel like the map also have an effect on individual match up balance right now, and not just the unit balance between 2 different races. For example, maps with narrow spaces are favor terran vs zerg, protoss vs zerg, and terran vs protoss. Maps with wide open space and huge ground to cover between different expansions favor toward zerg vs terran, zerg vs protoss and protoss vs terran.
There are Maps such as lost temple, while having walls in the center to create narrow spaces, it also have wide open areas outside of the 4 center walls, so players can pick their battle that favors their race. This kind of map will be more balanced toward all match ups, and it makes a better criteria for us to talk about balance between races.
My qualifications to post this is my faultless logics. 
oh and I wipe out both Chill and Kennigit single handily on ladder 
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useless poll, people will always vote for their race
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I'd be more interested to know which Race has won over the most tourneys to date.
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On April 19 2010 20:49 Talic_Zealot wrote:I think that "which race is the hardest" is a very subjective topic. It seems to be really personal. For example i find Zerg the hardest, then Terran and my main race the Protoss the easiest. But I've been playing protoss for what.. 10 years. And still I don't think that's the main reason ..I just feel more comfortable with T and P style macro. For the matchups: I'm fond of statistics too but in my opinion right now the only advantage in a matchup is because of trend builds. To be able to have a stronger argument of which race is favored allot more games have to be played.. and it is still a subjective matter. With all that said they are all good topics for discussion which never hurts, only heps come up with stuff. 
Having played both BW and SC2 helps. In BW, I felt competent with Protoss, decent with Terran, and terrible with Zerg; in SC2, I still feel competent with Protoss and decent with Terran, but my best race is probably Zerg, even though I play them very little. Sure, spamming roaches doesn't mean I'm super skillful as Zerg, but it feels way too effective for how easy it is to spam them- just how like in BW, low-level players usually find Protoss easier to play as because they can just 1a2a3a with suspect macro and micro and still be somewhat effective.
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EPT
