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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Hello everyone,
I've been watching a lot of replays and vods, and I have played quite a few games as well. Recently I've rolled a bit as random, trying to experience each race and enjoy the beta to the fullest, however protoss seems to be my thing most. I don't feel necessarily stronger or weaker than the other races though that might be my inexperience thus far.
Regularly I hear and read cries of imbalance and gameplay. 'Protoss is such an a-click race', 'Zerg just masses!' or 'Force Fields are so OP!' Just a few examples, there are tons more (just watch orb's stream).
Anyways, on to the point of this thread. What I'm really wondering is, what is your opinion regarding balance and the races. Why am I wondering? Because honestly, I feel this game is more balanced than people give it credit for. Or at least not as imbalanced as people state it is, or was. I feel the 'imbalance whines' are illustrative for this: they generally cover each race and are largely inconsistent.
1. The balance in total: which is the strongest race overall?
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, TvZ
3. What is the easiest race to play? P? T? Z?
I'm a sucker for statistics and really curious what the opinion is regarding these questions. The statistics should provide us with interesting information. Of course flawed due to the available maps, which are somewhat flawed, and differences in level of play (i.e. this might be totally different at the high level than low level). Try to view these questions for the entire population.
Of course, feel free to elaborate. Polls inside the spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Strongest race overall?Protoss (195) 42% Zerg (164) 35% Terran (109) 23% 468 total votes Your vote: Strongest race overall? (Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Terran
Poll: What is the easiest race to play?Zerg (205) 48% Protoss (154) 36% Terran (64) 15% 423 total votes Your vote: What is the easiest race to play? (Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
Poll: The TvZ matchup is favored forTerran (223) 61% Zerg (92) 25% Equal (51) 14% 366 total votes Your vote: The TvZ matchup is favored for (Vote): Terran
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Equal
Poll: The TvP matchup is favored forProtoss (246) 67% Terran (88) 24% Equal (32) 9% 366 total votes Your vote: The TvP matchup is favored for (Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Equal
Poll: The PvZ matchup is favored forZerg (196) 53% Protoss (130) 35% Equal (42) 11% 368 total votes Your vote: The PvZ matchup is favored for (Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Equal
I've left out the 'balanced option' here and there to entice an opinion.
Extra disclaimer: elaborate or don't post-- simple 'X is OP' replies will receive a ban. I don't want a shitty thread.
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Roaches still > all
[User warned for this post] -- if you don't have something interesting or elaborative to say, don't say anything at all. //bey
Guess I shortened my post too much. The rest was in my head. Sry.
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On April 19 2010 19:58 ghen wrote:
Roaches still > all
Marauders completely rape roaches, it's not even close lol
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MMM ball still > all
Tip: select all units in a ball and issue an attack-move. colect ur win :S
sorry but was bein sarcastic due to a previous post.
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In a match where no gimmick move like really fast void ray or banshee or some shit is used it feels like zerg is ahead if game goes on past 15 mins or so.
Two things make zerg extreamly powerful right now.
Spawn larva
Creep tumors and overlord creep.
Spawn larva is just too good when you have saved up your larva on all hatches late game to instantly make another 150 supply in 20 sec. Protoss and terran have to spend shitloads of gold on production buildings where its allmost free for zerg. Playing late game macro war is downhill battle against zerg.
I think invisible creep tumors really make scouting and mobility too good for zerg. For 25 energy you can cover half map in creep. Possible fix would be to make max 2-3 extra creep tumors off one. It doesnt feel like much of a sacrifise for zerg to use creep tumors now, like it is with terran and mule/scan. Maby increase energy for creep tumors to atleast 50 would make it a harder choice.
I also think overlord scouting is a little too powerful now. Zerg is supposed to use overseer changeling etc, but there is no need for it as fast and cheap you can get overlord speed you will have all info you need for 50/50, a upgrade you would get anyways. Seems like zerg scouting in general is just really powerfull.
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I think its funny how when TL makes a poll like this, it's legit. However when blizzard released beta survey's asking pretty much the same questions everyone went apeshit on them.
That the OP worded the polls a lot better than blizzard did =D
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Very interesting results already :D So far it isn't really positive for terran it seems? I wonder if this is due to it needing more creative play, making it both harder and averagely worse.
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I've been playing terran over the weekend, and despite my macro/feel of the race being absolutely horrible, im still beating 1700 Platinum players with ease just by making marauders. so I dunno, I dont understand how people think terran is so weak.
If I play more then 10 games of them, and learn the race and play enough to make my macro smooth with them, I might switch to terran fulltime
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TvP
Terrans can't compete against toss.
immortal timing pushes with well used chrono boosts can end the game if the terran early scout is removed. If Terrans use scan to counter the timing push they wont have the units to back it up because the mule option is gone.
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I think that "which race is the hardest" is a very subjective topic. It seems to be really personal. For example i find Zerg the hardest, then Terran and my main race the Protoss the easiest. But I've been playing protoss for what.. 10 years. And still I don't think that's the main reason ..I just feel more comfortable with T and P style macro. For the matchups: I'm fond of statistics too but in my opinion right now the only advantage in a matchup is because of trend builds. To be able to have a stronger argument of which race is favored allot more games have to be played.. and it is still a subjective matter. With all that said they are all good topics for discussion which never hurts, only heps come up with stuff. 
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On April 19 2010 20:49 Talic_Zealot wrote:I think that "which race is the hardest" is a very subjective topic. It seems to be really personal. For example i find Zerg the hardest, then Terran and my main race the Protoss the easiest. But I've been playing protoss for what.. 10 years. And still I don't think that's the main reason ..I just feel more comfortable with T and P style macro. For the matchups: I'm fond of statistics too but in my opinion right now the only advantage in a matchup is because of trend builds. To be able to have a stronger argument of which race is favored allot more games have to be played.. and it is still a subjective matter. With all that said they are all good topics for discussion which never hurts, only heps come up with stuff.
For sure. I try to base my feelings mostly on games watched and knowledge rather than personal experience. It might even out with a big N though, unless there are big statistical differences in races played.
I feel the same way with the maps. Some maps really just don't cut it and I feel that in order to properly balance the game, truly good maps are required.
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For reference, I'm in Bronze so a lot of my opinion may be off, but I played Terran every match and would win about one or two for every one match I lost.
I have since switched to Toss and suddenly I've won 7 games in a row and am now in Silver.
I know that it is fundamentally wrong to think of one race as overpowered against the others, as there is always something you could have done better as a player to secure your win, but let me explain why I may be having an easier time with Toss.
In their tech tree there isn't a whole lot of diversity necessary to scout AND build tier 2 units. One building allows you to build observers, arguably one of the best scouting units in the game, and immortals, which absolutely destroy units with hardened shield and +30 bonus to armored units. Then, if ground units got ya down, just grab some colossus.
The only thing they lack is anti-air, but I'm not convinced that this is much of a problem considering the amount of pressure they can put on other players early game, requiring people to stall their builds and make defensive units. With enough scouting, a good banshee rush should be spotted and easily countered with 4 stalkers and an observer. The observer comes out just as the first banshee comes out, so it shouldn't be an issue for toss.
Also - forcefield is incredibly useful because it can be used right out of the box and is indestructible. It can push a lot of units such as roaches out of range as well. It is excellent for defense on ramps, offensive separation of units, and it's just a perk that they do so much damage.
The downside is that Toss units are extremely expensive, but less units that are stronger may mean easier micro for people, which is why they appear to be so good.
I think Toss is a very strong match to play against right now, but not impossible. I've been winning as them, but I wonder if that's because of how much more scouting I do thanks to observers, or if the culmination of all of my previous points make it an easier race for me to manage.
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The poll is somewhat biased. If you look at the poll the great majority favor Zerg so it should come to no surprise in TvZ people voted for T favored. Same for other matchups. You can't have a subjective poll with a big chunk of players leaning towards a certain race.
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On April 19 2010 21:19 Black Octopi wrote:
The poll is somewhat biased. If you look at the poll the great majority favor Zerg so it should come to no surprise in TvZ people voted for T favored. Same for other matchups. You can't have a subjective poll with a big chunk of players leaning towards a certain race.
Complaining about statistics when the poll was created 2 hours ago is bad form. Details, it's all in the details.
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I'm Silver so I think at my level we can improve our play to overcome most problems. The ease of playing a race then makes the most difference. I personally find Protoss the easiest to play. They have a easy to use buildings system, warp gates and solid units like the sentry and immortal. Zerg is next with a great production but timing of drones vs military is still kinda hard. I'm playing Terran atm and I find that even simple stuff like a probe harass puts me off my game and defending a immortal push is hard. Anecdotal evidence from encountering far more Protoss players than anyone else and looking at my ladder make it seem as if others consider Protoss easy as well, at least in my little corner.
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Im fairly high platin with about 700 games so far and I've played every race for quite some time (Zerg the least I have to admit) and my opinion is:
- Zerg is by far the best race in a macro-game but it can be hard defending against timing-attacks, but that's mostly the players fault.
- Terran has a huge advantage over Protoss cuz of Marauder+EMP. although, if it get's to the lategame with lots of High-Templars for the Toss, it even's out a bit but just end's up in storms and EMP being dropped all over the place, which is quite ridiculous.
- Protoss is the race that is the worst abusing high-yield minerals and has the hardest time securing other expansion, jsut because they don't have mules and can't fly their buildings around and repair them (like Terran) and they don't have cheap hatcheries and a very fast army like the Zerg.
- Terran plyers most of the times just do some cheesey strategy with Thor-Drops, fast-banshees or timing-attacks and Protoss msotly win just by all-in timing-attacks, so I guess it's harder for those two races to have a solid macro-oriented build that favours good mechanics over cheesey stuff, or it's jsut easier to cheese with those races I guess...
Though I don't think there is just one race that's far superior or easier to play, but all the races favour another playstyle I guess... Zerg is very Maco-oriented and you need to have good mechanics and defend well (so you have to know the enemys timings for the attacks very well), Protoss facours a more creative and micro-oriented playstyle and Terran is somewhere in the middle I guess...
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Well, let's answer in the order you presented.
1. The balance in total: which is the strongest race overall?
This is tough, because the answer is hugely dependent on player skill. Since I'm assuming that you're referring to high-level play, I have to say Protoss. They are extremely micro dependent, but once that micro is in place they have the most powerful tools to alter battles with. On the flipside, if you do not possess the micro to use those abilities properly, Protoss ends up being farily weak.
At low-level play I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful. More info on that in part 3.
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
PvT - P favored. It's really the Protoss game to lose, Terran will be on the reactionary end for the whole game.
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
3. What is the easiest race to play? P? T? Z?
Zerg are most certainly the easiest to play. I base this on the fact that their army simply doesn't require much micro. The Zerg army is pretty much all attack-move. They lack on-use combat abilities, and their only caster is more or less a joke in it's current state. The only micro they have to do in combat is positional and targeting, which everyone else has to do as well. It is also easier to keep up the Zerg macro during combat, since one hatchery control group will give you access to all larvae, and thus the entire production chain.
That said, they of course have a lot of room to expand efficiency in high-level play, and are by no means weak. As Day[9] put it, Zerg are the most mechanical race, requiring less thought but more repetitive action. Consequently, they are also the strongest in low-level play, since T and P players won't have the precision required to make their armies effective.
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I was always a zerg player even in bw but I switched to random after the ladder reset. I actually found terran to be super easy to play, and toss to be the hardest by far imo. When I first started sc2 I was a silver zerg, but if I started as terran I'd say I'd be gold, and a low level silver as toss.
As far as balance of the game goes I agree with the op that everyone cries about the game when in reality I thought sc2 would be much worse than it is now. I think I'd have to be a top tier random plat player and play a million games before I had an concrete ideas if something was unbalanced or not. I'd probably have to do something like keep a spreadsheet of races, bo's, skill level of opponent, and the outcome of the game.
I've seen in a few older threads people claiming that the winrates with each race was almost exactly 33%. Is that true? I think this was after patch 6 was released, but if those numbers are true then we don't have anything to be complaining about. How many people complaining about imba have even played 100 games after each patch? What if the game truly was 90% balanced at the moment, would we even know?
To throw in another poker analogy, it's like people who say poker's not beatable when statistically it's hard to be a winner but it's more than possible and there's lots of people whose primary income is from poker.
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if only random players were allowed to vote (in theory) it would be even more representative.
most people tend to be quite egoistical about their own race and its standing / balance 
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On April 19 2010 20:56 rewsky wrote:
For reference, I'm in Bronze so a lot of my opinion may be off, but I played Terran every match and would win about one or two for every one match I lost.
I have since switched to Toss and suddenly I've won 7 games in a row and am now in Silver.
I know that it is fundamentally wrong to think of one race as overpowered against the others, as there is always something you could have done better as a player to secure your win, but let me explain why I may be having an easier time with Toss.
In their tech tree there isn't a whole lot of diversity necessary to scout AND build tier 2 units. One building allows you to build observers, arguably one of the best scouting units in the game, and immortals, which absolutely destroy units with hardened shield and +30 bonus to armored units. Then, if ground units got ya down, just grab some colossus.
The only thing they lack is anti-air, but I'm not convinced that this is much of a problem considering the amount of pressure they can put on other players early game, requiring people to stall their builds and make defensive units. With enough scouting, a good banshee rush should be spotted and easily countered with 4 stalkers and an observer. The observer comes out just as the first banshee comes out, so it shouldn't be an issue for toss.
Also - forcefield is incredibly useful because it can be used right out of the box and is indestructible. It can push a lot of units such as roaches out of range as well. It is excellent for defense on ramps, offensive separation of units, and it's just a perk that they do so much damage.
The downside is that Toss units are extremely expensive, but less units that are stronger may mean easier micro for people, which is why they appear to be so good.
I think Toss is a very strong match to play against right now, but not impossible. I've been winning as them, but I wonder if that's because of how much more scouting I do thanks to observers, or if the culmination of all of my previous points make it an easier race for me to manage.
just a comment, this does not necessarily mean imbalance(it still could). in SC1 most people thought that toss was much easier to pick up and play, while terran required much more micro at the lower levels. but at higher levels they were much more balanced when you could multitask and micro properly.
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On April 19 2010 22:31 Ghardo wrote:if only random players were allowed to vote (in theory) it would be even more representative. most people tend to be quite egoistical about their own race and its standing / balance
True that, people will always deny that their own race is overpowered, and whine at the other races.
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Reduce marauder range by 1 IMO. I say that'd fix it.
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Too many people are still thinking in Broodwar terms (I am, too, to be perfectly honest) and too many people are complaining about things instead of adapting.
Prime examples are roach/hydra got nerfed we heard a HUGE cry by zergplayers since their primary a-move strategy has become harder. Or Terran having trouble with Immortals until they figured out that EMP is quite a good counter.
There are still many balance issues but they should be adressed SLOWLY... e.g. stalker vs marauder, phoenix, archons, the whole mech issue, the new infestor they are thinking about etc pp. I hope they really take their time and really, REALLY make up their own mind on how to fix things since 90% of the suggestions I read in the blizzard boards are just... let's say they will bring back issues already solved.
Back2topic:
To my personal experience Zerg is by far the easiest race from the very beginning. It's pure mechanics and even now it works well up to platinum for many players. Once the skill level in average rises, this will propably become the easy to learn - hard to master race as protoss was in SC:BW.
I kinda refuse to tell who is harder to play since my main race is Protoss and for now I tested more Zerg than Terran to get an idea of the other races. Protoss is definately hard to play in terms that your decisions will be stuck with you for a long range of time plus Protoss has almost no propper defense (canons and FF thats it - and who the f... wants to nerf this one as well again?) while Terran can "adapt" while using their strong defense (thor vs air, turrets, planetary fortress, bunkers and slowing marauders to name a few). Warpgates require a lot more effort in macroing (no cueing) tough Terran also has a hard time to differ the addons given to them. So as you see, I'm not that sure about that.
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I play random mid range platinum, have watched hundreds of replay of all latest tournaments and my feelings are:
1) Zerg Macro mechanic are the easiest to play, spaw larva timing is very easy to get used to and even if you're not a pro you can have one queen at each hatch for insane production capability late game. Creep tumor is very very powerful and still underused in my opinion, does require some good mechanics but the sight it gives and move speed is insane (people should start and do creep cleanup). Overlord creep is kinda imba with the speed upgrade.
Combat wise, zerg is clearly NOT the easiest race to play. Spamming (wisely) force field is not hard and it gives an insane advantage. Hit & Run with stimmed marauders is not hard and it gives an insane advantage. Flanking IS hard to set-up, its not just a combat gimmick, it needs preparation. I just love people saying its A-Move and win. Well unfortunately A-Moving into a protoss or terran blob is sure death.
2) Protoss vs Terran is the match-up I understand the least. At my level protoss ground demolishes terran, good unit placement, immortals and guardian shield from sentries and warp gate production is just doom for the terran. Only very late game with a big blob and upgrades does terran get the advantage, and even then, psi-storm is such a pain to take care of. On the other hand, Banshees harass into mass banshees is insanely powerful mid and late game for terran and stalker blink doesn't cut-it (even more so on maps with lots of high ground (e.g Kulas Ravine). At high level, I find protoss having the advantage, once again because its ground is just too good early / mid game. EMP is all the shit but if the toss has 4 groups of units, its not that easy to pull off early game. Immortal transition to high templar seems to give the edge to protoss in that match-up
3) TVZ seems very very balanced and interesting with different options for terran (helion to marauder and m&m&m or helion to thor with the newest thor-drop technique or helion/reaper to banshee) as well as for zerg (baneling bust, speedling/baneling muta, hydra to roach / hydra). I love this match-up from both sides ! At a "pro" level though I find it very strange that zerg players lose late game vs terran blob (i.e at one point of critical medivac count, marauder / medivac blob just wins vs roach/hydra even at upgrade parity) without even trying either to harass with drops or to make the teck switch to broodlords which switch back the balance towards zerg (though anticipating the switch as terran can be very cost effective with viking being so strong anti-"big"air).
4) PVZ is the one I played the most and enjoy it quite a bit but there are less options then TVZ. Protoss harass into FE is very strong on some maps and the critical timing push is always a challenge for zerg to hold (which I find interesting overall). Now it seems the latest trend for zerg is to build a million sunken in that match-up and harass with there very strong mobility (speedlings / muta) before winning the macro war. That doesn't bother me too much eventhough I would like to have some epic battles as in BW with multiple flanks and storms everywhere but it seems protoss blob is a bit too strong nowadays (colossus / sentry combo is insane vs ground)
5) ZVZ is the worst match-up by far...TVT and PVP have some opportunities and have changing meta-games (mainly because the "killer" unit is higher teck : colossus / banshee or viking). In ZVZ, apart from some "nice" speedlings / banelings matchs on some maps, it always comes down to roaches / hydra sim-city style with both players building there army for the BIG encounter. Quite boring overhole.
As a final word, there are some things that bother me (perma force field in ramp for example which "feels" very very imbalanced) but overall the game is very well balanced, it could be improved though with some changes to bring some units into the game (for instance, phoenix are just plain bad except vs mutalisks, why not try and buff the phoenix even more vs mutalisks and nerf the sentry attack (not its spells, just the attack) so that protoss gets a good anti-air solution and isn't getting the same army composition every single game whether the zerg goes ground or air...
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I personally have problems in PvT, marauders are raping all my units except immortals, but usually the amount of immortals is not that big. If T goes air, i am very weak against it. What to use against Terran's mass air? Stalkers are too weak, if he adds small ground army to his ball.
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On April 19 2010 20:56 rewsky wrote:
For reference, I'm in Bronze so a lot of my opinion may be off, but I played Terran every match and would win about one or two for every one match I lost.
I have since switched to Toss and suddenly I've won 7 games in a row and am now in Silver.
I know that it is fundamentally wrong to think of one race as overpowered against the others, as there is always something you could have done better as a player to secure your win, but let me explain why I may be having an easier time with Toss.
In their tech tree there isn't a whole lot of diversity necessary to scout AND build tier 2 units. One building allows you to build observers, arguably one of the best scouting units in the game, and immortals, which absolutely destroy units with hardened shield and +30 bonus to armored units. Then, if ground units got ya down, just grab some colossus.
The only thing they lack is anti-air, but I'm not convinced that this is much of a problem considering the amount of pressure they can put on other players early game, requiring people to stall their builds and make defensive units. With enough scouting, a good banshee rush should be spotted and easily countered with 4 stalkers and an observer. The observer comes out just as the first banshee comes out, so it shouldn't be an issue for toss.
Also - forcefield is incredibly useful because it can be used right out of the box and is indestructible. It can push a lot of units such as roaches out of range as well. It is excellent for defense on ramps, offensive separation of units, and it's just a perk that they do so much damage.
The downside is that Toss units are extremely expensive, but less units that are stronger may mean easier micro for people, which is why they appear to be so good.
I think Toss is a very strong match to play against right now, but not impossible. I've been winning as them, but I wonder if that's because of how much more scouting I do thanks to observers, or if the culmination of all of my previous points make it an easier race for me to manage.
Sounds like you are heavily micro intensive player. Toss in sc2 are more micro intensive and as Terran you need to do a lot of harass (but you know Terran probably has the most strategies to harass other races). Also as Terran you are harshly punished for not macroing properly. Toss or Zerg can pop up units faster than Terran (damn u reactor nerf! we were still behind producing more units and you do this to us T_T). If you work on your macro game more you will be able to do very well.
Two more points to add.
One
Is it just me or is the theme of each race for sc2 are
Terran: Harass and Harass more
Protoss: Micro and Micro better
Zerg: MACRO like Idra does on friday night
Two
The poll, "which do you think is the most powerful race?", has coherency with the whine poll on play xp site.
http://playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
pink =zerg
green = terran
blue = toss
purple = no race is UPed
Of course the whine poll is to see which is the weakest race but the poll's numbers are reciprocal to the poll here. Good to know Koreans are on the same wave length with the TL.net community
I'm Korean and I approve of this topic.
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I think toss is by far the easiest race to play.. Zerg is not even close. I think the people that say zerg is must have never played it. U need alot of macro to keep up, and zerg win by taking over the map and getting lots of expos which having a ton of bases greatly increases ur macro. Also balancing ur econ and units isn't that easy.
And if u think Zerg is the most powerful race ur funny. This is not 3 patches ago. Roach nerf made them worthless besides being a meat shield of 80hp hydras..
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On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:
...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O
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On April 19 2010 20:30 Beyonder wrote:
Very interesting results already :D So far it isn't really positive for terran it seems? I wonder if this is due to it needing more creative play, making it both harder and averagely worse.
I think you should be careful with the results you get from the polls. Something that should never go out of mind is that the majority of people voting aren't good, and the polls only show what people believe, not any actual circumstance.
Also, I believe you should have added a couple extra polls for the "easiest race to play," because the easiest race to play at the noob level is, let's be honest here, Protoss. Is Protoss the easiest race to play in the mid-level? The upper-level? Those are different polls imo.
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I like that you ask which race is favored in mirror matches. That made me smile.
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On April 19 2010 23:46 wbz0rn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:
...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O
Exactly what I was thinking.. Automatically responding with Z when u see who is the most powerful ftl.
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On April 19 2010 23:46 wbz0rn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:
...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z.
isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O
I think what he's saying is lack of tools to handle MMM ball during the early and mid timing pushes. Late game Zerg is still dominant, against toss or terran.
Dominance
From my experience, when I'm not doing anything creative
TvZ
Early game - Terran: (reapers' ability to deny FEs)
Mid game - Terran: (MMM ball)
Late game - Zerg: (Broodlords + Hydras, hydras + infestors or any other mass + support)
TvP
Early game - Terran: (reaper + marauders are making a comeback, marauders are still answer to toss' ground force)
Mid game - Even: there is the immortal push but if Terran survives Terran can medivac push back
Late game - Toss by a small margin: favoured but ever so slightly. I guess warpgate and chronoboost mechanics are far superior to mule mechanics end game.
When I'm protoss
PvZ
Early game - Protoss: Immortals pushes aren't very effective but still can apply early pressure and have option to deviate to voidrays
Mid game - Zerg, very slightly: Mutas or hydralisks, they are both good
Late game - Zerg: Broodlords, possibly with muta or hydra support
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In my biased opinion as a Zerg player, I find Zerg to be the weakest race when two competent players face each other.
One of the primary reasons for this is that Zerg units are simply less cost efficient. Take the Hydralisk for instance and compare it to the Marine. An unupgraded Hydra deals 2.07 times as much dps as a Marine against a 0 armor target (2.28 as much against 1 armor, 2.59 against 2 armor and 3.11 against 3 armor). Hydras cost at least three times as much (since gas is almost always more precious than minerals), so unless your opponent is way ahead in upgrades, Marines provide more cost effective dps.
What about durability? Well, if we compare 1 Hydra to 3 Marines, the Terran loses 1/3 of his dps after receiving 45 damage (putting him slighty behind the hydra dps), then after receiving 80 damage the hydra dies, which means the zerg player loses all of his dps, while the two of the Terran Marines are still alive. Marines win this round, too. The only advantage the Hydra has here is being slightly less susceptible to aoe/splash.
Now what about upgrades? The Hydra gets +1 damage per attack upgrade, so does the Marine, which is obviously much stronger for the Marine. Stimpack and Combat Shields is also much, much more useful than a lousy +1 range upgrade.
So we can conclude that Terrans most basic unit is actually significantly stronger than the most important tier 2 unit for Zerg.
Now don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly fine for Zerg units to be somewhat less cost-efficient, because Zerg's superior production (due to Queens and the ability to instantly switch between drone production and unit production) makes up for it. However, Zerg benefits the least from good micro, so a platinum Zerg's Roach Hydra army is only slightly more powerful than the same army controlled by a Bronze or Silver player. On the other hand, both T and P profit massively from good micro, making their armies so much more cost-effective that a Zerg simply cannot keep up without having a significantly stronger economy.
However, securing that economic advantage is very difficult, as both Terran and Protoss have many dangerous timing pushes available, as well as a number of tech rushes (such as Banshees or Void Rays) and preparing for all of those AND securing a sizeable economic lead simply cannot be done.
Due to those reasons, I think that at the platinum level, P>T>Z, at the gold level all races are about equal and in silver and below, Z>P=T.
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I don't understand how everyone says zerg has the easiest macro mechanic. They have the least forgiving one. With zerg, every second of spawn larva that you miss you are losing production. With terran, all you have to do is just spam mules or scans, with nothing lost. With protoss, you can just chrono boost all your gateways when you're producing.
The point I'm trying to get at is that the zerg macro mechanic is the only one which has a "cooldown". If you miss some kind of timing with protoss/terran, you still have energy left over to use it on other things. With zerg, all you can do with the extra energy is lay down a creep tumor which while helpful pales in comparison to having a forgiving macro mechanic(especially considering overlords already spew creep).
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1350+ point Plat protoss (before the reset)
Strongest Race: Protoss
Reason: The only thing protoss lacks right now is a hard anti-air counter. Apart from that protoss are insanely strong and all fronts. Early game stalkers/immortals/sentry rule the battlefield, and later on Colossi and Templar just cements the domination. They're not unbeatable, but I feel like they're the strongest race right now. (Also I'm basing this on the fact that I was just a C level protoss player in SC1 and I was sporting close to a 70% win rate before the reset, even at plat)
Favored in TvZ: No idea. Yet to play a single game as either race and I've only watch a few TvZ.
Favored in TvP: Protoss.
Reasons: - Unless T goes for 6/10 rax reaper harass protoss has map control in the early game.
- 4 gate warp rush/3-4 immortal pushes are neigh unbeatable if you FE as terran making that nearly undoable.
- P can quite safely expand and still fend off most rushes T can throw at you.
- Immortal drops are ridiculously strong against Marauders, the backbone of nearly every terran army..
- Storm/Colossi tear through MMM so easily
Favored in ZvP: Even or slightly Z favored.
Reason: I was tempted to write Z favored here, but the discovery of the Nazgul 10 pylon/10 gate -> chrono zeal harass -> expo has really turned this match-up around for me. It allows you to deal early damage and expand (provided you deal enough damage with your zeals) something giving you both an economic and military advantage if done correctly. Good Zs will not allow you to do much damage, but many Zs tend to overling and thus suffer economic damage as a result.
Z still has unbelievably strong tech switches: opening 14 pool -> 15 hatch -> roach -> muta is such a strong play, and I have trouble dealing with the mutas even though I know they're coming, since my army is based mostly around immortals to counter the roaches. Even if I fend off the mutas Z has expanded once of twice putting me behind. The build is counterable though, if I hit the timing where Zs spire is nearly done, and his saving larvae for mutas.
I feel good Z's beat good Ps most of the time, and since I think Z has a slight edge in this matchup.
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I feel this poll is going to be a bad idea because people are going to start quoting it for balance and it grossly oversimplifies matchups. Just take PvZ, the ~4 gate push no robotics can be deadly if you can time it vs their lair and roach count, but then most P's flounder in the mid-late game unless they did significant damage, especially since many people are unwilling to massgame FE openings on the ladder since they are perceived to be more vulnerable since P hasn't figured out how to gauge the # of Z units well. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of protoss wins in PvZ occur from warpgate rushes, and the majority of losses occur from a mass warpgate strategy dying to heavy ling/roach/hydra or FE's falling to zerg's macro advantage and mass muta switches.
Similarly in PvT many Terrans at the end of the last patch were relying on 1-2 barracks marauder expansions, and from my experience among top EU platinums some still haven't adjusted as well to the pressure builds of P which got more effective since you can see quite easily what T is doing with stalkers now. But I wouldn't say either side has a major advantage now, it's too early to tell.
This is like polling a bunch of D players on the balance of broodwar.
(and yes, I play protoss, 1850/2200 after/before reset.)
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I feel like the map also have an effect on individual match up balance right now, and not just the unit balance between 2 different races. For example, maps with narrow spaces are favor terran vs zerg, protoss vs zerg, and terran vs protoss. Maps with wide open space and huge ground to cover between different expansions favor toward zerg vs terran, zerg vs protoss and protoss vs terran.
There are Maps such as lost temple, while having walls in the center to create narrow spaces, it also have wide open areas outside of the 4 center walls, so players can pick their battle that favors their race. This kind of map will be more balanced toward all match ups, and it makes a better criteria for us to talk about balance between races.
My qualifications to post this is my faultless logics. 
oh and I wipe out both Chill and Kennigit single handily on ladder 
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useless poll, people will always vote for their race
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I'd be more interested to know which Race has won over the most tourneys to date.
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On April 19 2010 20:49 Talic_Zealot wrote:I think that "which race is the hardest" is a very subjective topic. It seems to be really personal. For example i find Zerg the hardest, then Terran and my main race the Protoss the easiest. But I've been playing protoss for what.. 10 years. And still I don't think that's the main reason ..I just feel more comfortable with T and P style macro. For the matchups: I'm fond of statistics too but in my opinion right now the only advantage in a matchup is because of trend builds. To be able to have a stronger argument of which race is favored allot more games have to be played.. and it is still a subjective matter. With all that said they are all good topics for discussion which never hurts, only heps come up with stuff.
Having played both BW and SC2 helps. In BW, I felt competent with Protoss, decent with Terran, and terrible with Zerg; in SC2, I still feel competent with Protoss and decent with Terran, but my best race is probably Zerg, even though I play them very little. Sure, spamming roaches doesn't mean I'm super skillful as Zerg, but it feels way too effective for how easy it is to spam them- just how like in BW, low-level players usually find Protoss easier to play as because they can just 1a2a3a with suspect macro and micro and still be somewhat effective.
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I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
TvZ: Same thing basically. Terran has to inflict some sort of damage early on with a well-timed rush or something along those lines.
TvP: This matchup sort of "evens" out in the midgame where before the patch, Terran was definitely in a stronger position early game, now it's kinda reversed where protoss has the early game advantages while Terran struggles to take it to the midgame. (Arguably midgame is hard as fuck for Terran, but I'm a terran player and I'm pretty sure i'm, if only slightly, biased.)
Even though it might seem I'm one of those who cries out imbalance, i'm seriously trying to stop that. I agree with you, this game is actually more balanced than what people make it out to be. I can just relate to myself when saying that, It's SO much easier on your ego (especially on your ego) to cry out "IMBALANCE!" rather than saying "I fucked up, he played better".
I think SC/BW players are the ones doing this the most right now, mainly due to the fact that we always took pride in that "our" game was the most balanced RTS game, thus we could never really blame imbalance (maybe an imbalanced map every now and then). Now that we're given the oppertunity to do so, so to say, I think a lot of sc/bw players capitalize on this a tad bit too much, rather than accepting that you just played worse than your opponent.
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I feel like the conversation is missing some extremely important details.
1. First off, some of you need some damn foresight. In 2 years this game is going to look nothing like it does today. Bisu corsair play, Zerg defiler play? They were late comers and are now completely dominant. We are using only the most basic strategies right now.
2. The skill cap is one of those terms that gets mocked, but it is pivotal here. Look at top beta replays and find me a player that isn't doing absolutely terrible with chrono boost once they have a few nexus or more than 10 min into the game. Same with mule and spawn larva. Honestly, we all SUCK at this game.
That being said, this sort of conversation is important, but please throttle back your egos and realize that this game will be changing each month, with or without balance changes.
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On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)...
Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently to make any kind of judgement. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers.
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On April 20 2010 01:32 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)... Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers.
I've watched TONS of lategame PvZ's and only took yesterdays Zotac Cup as an example. Evidently, Zpux (I can't remember how to say shit that ends with an X in plural) play was a lot better and had his opponent(s) adjusted they might have performed better. But I've seen lots of high-level matches (Nazgul vs Haypro, Zpux vs Goody.. etc) Where the protoss player has gone for a strong economical build, trying to mirror the Zerg in terms of economy, and still get completly crushed. Yet, i'm not saying you're wrong, these zerg players might just flat out be better than their opponents, but I can't help but to get the feeling that something is still wrong in the mid to lategame in PvZ.
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On April 20 2010 01:36 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:32 Antimage wrote:On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)... Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers. I've watched TONS of lategame PvZ's and only took yesterdays Zotac Cup as an example. Evidently, Zpux (I can't remember how to say shit that ends with an X in plural) play was a lot better and had his opponent(s) adjusted they might have performed better. But I've seen lots of high-level matches (Nazgul vs Haypro, Zpux vs Goody.. etc) Where the protoss player has gone for a strong economical build, trying to mirror the Zerg in terms of economy, and still get completly crushed. Yet, i'm not saying you're wrong, these zerg players might just flat out be better than their opponents, but I can't help but to get the feeling that something is still wrong in the mid to lategame in PvZ.
What unit composition do toss players have problems with? Blink stalkers own brood lords, storms/colossi/immortals/stalkers/sentries murder anything on the ground with force fields/guardian shields/psi storms blanketing the entire battlefield. Sure, you might not be able to make an aggressive move until you have enough psi storm + 2-3 colossi, but the zerg player won't attack into 3-4 cannons + HT's anyway. Again, I'd suggest watching my games with Machine - Protoss CAN keep up macro-wise, and if it's imbalanced at the late game, I'd say the game hasn't been played long enough to determine that 100%.
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Personally I feel like it's the old BW power triangle of Zerg > Protoss > Terran > Zerg, only except much more exaggerated in SC2.
Terran's response to Protoss was mech, but with the Immortal the power of early game mech, which was the brunt of Terran's defense has been negated. As a result, Protoss is simply stronger than Terran in the early game due to the Immortal and the fact that Marines simply build so slowly now. Once it gets to mid-late game, the two races are pretty equal once a tank mass is reached or sufficient Thors come into play.
Zerg's advantage over the Protoss was it's ability to tech switch incredibly easy. In SC2, that ability has only been increased with the introduction of spawn larva. Add to that the Protoss's weak anti-air and very specialized units (Colossi rapes ground, but raped by air, Immortal rapes roaches but gets raped by speedlings and enough hydras, etc...), Zerg tech swtiches from hydra/roach masses to muta masses are just incredibly deadly. And once the game gets to late-game, if Protoss doesn't have a economic advantage by that point, they will always lose when Broodlords come into play.
Can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup, but I suspect it's mostly the absence of dark swarm protecting the squishy Zerg units combined with a lack of reliable (not ultras) Zerg splash damage to combat MMM balls.
@Antimage: Protoss has problem with mass mutas into mass hydras/roaches. It's very, very easy for Zerg to open with a quick spire, just mass up a TON of mutalisks and just rape your econ line. It's very hard to get enough stalkers/sentries that early in the game to counter a mass muta strategy. All the while they just tech up to hydras or mass roaches. The void ray push isn't as effective anymore because Zergs are learning to build a few spores, which combined with a queen absolutely demolishes early void ray rushes. In addition, Protoss can't keep up Phoenix production to be on par with Muta production due to the higher cost (and build time) of Phoenix and spawn larva. If you throw down enough stargates to match Zerg's constant muta production you'll just be raped when they switch over to hydras or even just mass speedlings, which is very easy to do. It's not impossible for Protoss to deal with early mass mutas, just very hard. Once Zerg gets the ball going and you don't whittle down the muta numbers sufficiently after the first or second harass the muta ball will just keep growing until it's gg.
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I'd love to continue this discussion, but I honestly have to go. But just a small input, the way I see it now, Protoss needs SO much shit in order to compete with a mid to lategame Z army while Z can rely on Basically 2 types of units and eventually throw in broodlords.
Like you said, Toss gets Storms/Colossi/Immortals/Stalkers/Sentries vs what? Usually Roach/Hydra and later on Broodlings. If i'm not way wrong here, affording both Storm and Colossus + Enough Immortal + Enough sentries is not very possible as a P player unless you can get up to 6 geysers going, and yet you seem to need all these things to deal with what Z can mass in pretty large numbers off just 2 bases.
Still, just a quick input but I get your point and I'm not saying you're wrong. I assume you're playing Protoss as well so you understand the matchup a whole lotter better than me, I have to go!
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ZvT - I found pretty easy using baneling busts or muta corrupter combo if they were going mech, but now im playing against decent people i'm finding it pretty hard.
ZvP - Stopping early game pushes is easy now using crawlers (not sure if thats a good for the game but hey) some people have said late game is easy for zerg but even if i have 4 base and keep them on two i still get owned late game. Mass sentries is my main problem but gonna go check out these zotac games people have been talking about
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On April 20 2010 01:41 Ryuu314 wrote:
@Antimage: Protoss has problem with mass mutas into mass hydras/roaches. It's very, very easy for Zerg to open with a quick spire, just mass up a TON of mutalisks and just rape your econ line. It's very hard to get enough stalkers/sentries that early in the game to counter a mass muta strategy. All the while they just tech up to hydras or mass roaches. The void ray push isn't as effective anymore because Zergs are learning to build a few spores, which combined with a queen absolutely demolishes early void ray rushes. In addition, Protoss can't keep up Phoenix production to be on par with Muta production due to the higher cost (and build time) of Phoenix and spawn larva. If you throw down enough stargates to match Zerg's constant muta production you'll just be raped when they switch over to hydras or even just mass speedlings, which is very easy to do.
If they use their gas on mutas, it means they won't have gas for roaches hydras. Which means they'll be reliant on spine crawlers/zerglings, which can be completely negated with blink stalkers or a well microed immortal push. If they mass lots and lots of spine crawlers to make it impossible to push in, then you can do the same, cannon up and get blink stalkers to fight those mutas. Once you have an ob in their base, you can get blink stalkers up into their main before they have a critical mass of mutas.
I truly believe phoenixes are NOT the answers to a mass muta zerg player, but a mass muta strategy is very susceptible to timing hits on their main like using blink stalkers or elevator tactics with the warp prism.
My suggestion is for you guys to stop opening up stargate in all your PvZ's - a surprise tactic works once in a while, but you can't hope to win your games like that.
EDIT: oh wow i mentioned blink stalkers a lot didn't I ... well I think I got the point across.
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On April 20 2010 01:32 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)... Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently to make any kind of judgement. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers.
this is exactly what i'm seeing as well. i'm so glad someone else does.
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I think actually Protoss are the best. The have no problems with Terran and as a Zerg youre not in a better position since brood lords come out. The only unit Protoss has a hard time to deal with.
In case what race is the easiest to play i wont make much of a difference between zerg and protoss. They are both pretty easy to handle. Zerg unit production is really smooth now in sc2 and Protoss with their warp in and forget buildings + the warpgates its not that hard. Terran in my eyes is much much harder to keep everything flowing.
The strenght of Z lies in their macro abilities. But they have really hard times vs timing pushes from all races. If you defend early and get 2-3 expansions youre in a good position, but that should be obvious.
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Current state of PvZ is that maps play a defining role on balance. On long distance, macro maps such as Desert Oasis and Scrap Station, things seems to be in favor of Z, but on short rush maps, P seems to be slightly stronger and able to punish greedy players much more.
Overall, I feel like T is probably the strongest race in the game by a little margin, while Z is by far easiest race to play. TvZ is a very well balanced matchup in my opinion.
Broodlords are currently overpowered. As predicted by pretty much everyone (except Blizzard) their -5 dmg nerf did nothing to help this issue, as the whole broodling mechanic is problematic, not just the dmg output of BL's.
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terran does seem to be the weakest race overall blizz will buff them im sure
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I feel that this game is well balanced on most maps but most definitely not on Desert Oasis. It's zerg heaven.
I've spent very little time playing anything but protoss so I'll talk about them. I have a great win percentage thanks to early pushes but the thing with these are that they're strong because people suck. When they do get stopped it's not necessarily because I got out-played but because the opponent simply had solid builds that don't lose to early pressure. There is no need to nerf the power of these pushes with patches because the problem (if there is a problem) will solve it self.
Force field is insanely powerful in some situations and nerfing it would make sense. But looking at BW, swarm was just craaaazy powerful in some situation (one swarm and a few lurkers in your natural? GG) and these extremely powerful and extremely situational spells makes the game interesting.
Decreasing the amount of shield that Immortals have would be a good change I must admit.
The risk is that mass MMM would be way hard to hold of before you get a decent amount of colossi.
EDIT: Oh, and I don't like Brood Lords. Not because the unit is overpowered but because they're a late game unit and zerg is crazy good in the late game. I love the HUGE macro of zergs late game because zerg should crash against their enemies in wave after wave. Sure, hydras, lings and roaches will die in huge numbers to the late game AoE of the other races but they can wear them down thanks to extreme production capabilities. The Brood Lord is too powerfull to fit in. Buff the Ultralisk instead.
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Z > P
If the zerg gets to mutalisks, the game is most likely over. It seems only mass zealot/sentry can deal with this, as Protoss rarely survive long enough to build high templar.
T > Z
Thors are extremely cost effective, fast banshee is devastating, turrets seem to hard-counter mutalisks, and Zerg can lose entire armies trying to kill a planetary fortress. Standard MM vs. standard zerg ground seems to be quite balanced though.
(Platinum ~20 Zerg)
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I think the polls are pretty accurate except for the "overall strongest race" which i think is a bit senseless
P>>>T, Z>>P, T?Z (dunno this one)
And the > are not in a "manageable" way atm, they are pretty imbafuck
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i rly need to cry if i see all this P>Z i dont know what league u guys are playing but this might be in copper... every people i ask say this mu is fucked up mass sentries and immo push fucks everything
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Hello.
I'm just gonna post my opinion here, and many of you might not agree but you will find out, in time, that I am right.
Zerg is currently the strongest race. The reason most think that ZvT is hard is because of the dumb strategies like baneling bust or roach rush that most low-level players are attempting. Gold and lower platinum are FILLED with people going baneling bust all games ZvT (and I should know, I play random). But the hard truth is that if zerg just goes for a macro game and manages to fend off the cheeses (reaper harass, hellion harass, bunker rush, etc), zerg is more likely to win than terran is.
Most people don't abuse macro like some good players do (see Idra replays). For a lower-level match it's easy to just FE into 3 hatch and mass drones with 1-2-3 sunkens. Getting one queen for every hatch should be safe against banshee harass, (i sometimes even go 4 queens out of 3 hatches and late gas if I feel that terran isn't teching super fast cloak) and lings will take care of most everything terran throws at you before lair is out. After than switching to some hydra/banelings will tilt the balance in your favor, especially since you have 50 drones and the terran is struggling with 20-30 scvs.
ZvP is a bit harder due to the Colossus, but MOST common protoss strats are really easy to hold off with queen/lings (especially that immortal rush, whenever I see a protoss going 1-gate-1-robo I go into 3 hatch queens, and pump out lings when he steps outside his base. 3-4 immortals and zeals don't stand a chance vs 3 sunks, 6 queens and lings. Not to mention that you'll have double his worker amount.)
So anyway, I played against platinum players who have ratings as high as 2000 (well, 1960++), so I'm not talking out of my ass. People are just trying too many rushes (baneling, muta, etc), but there's really no need for that since zerg CAN take the advantage in mid game. And if he does mass enough colossi, you should have a good enough economy to hold off until corruptors/broodlords kick in.
I'm not really sure about TvP, though it seems harder to win with Terran so far, but as far as ZvT and PvZ goes, you really can't say that T or P is stronger than zerg. At best they're even. And people who whine should just try to play some macro games and use the queen a bit more (I haven't lost a game to void rays/banshees ever since I've been going "macro").
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Yeah I don't really know if I think TvZ is balanced ATM. It feels like the terran needs to do something to stop the zerg from spamming drones, but the zerg can easily scout it and make a bunch of units in time to stop any attack that isn't all-in. So the terran can win if he does a lot of damage with harass or if the zerg messes up scouting an all in, but I feel like it's very difficult for the terran to win a normal game if the zerg just macros and scouts well.
They really need to increase the cost of overlord speed. They also need to nerf the ability to vomit creep. It should be an upgrade or it should at least go away much faster once the overlord is killed or moves. Also, creep tumors are ridiculous and should be looked at as well. Any good TvZ will have the terran turtling in his base while the zerg has creep and vision of vast areas of the map, giving them ridiculous levels of confidence and mobility. It's too easy for the zerg to have almost the entire map revealed and have 10+ super convenient scouts, all for a very cheap upgrade on the Lair.
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On April 19 2010 20:07 Pekkz wrote:
In a match where no gimmick move like really fast void ray or banshee or some shit is used it feels like zerg is ahead if game goes on past 15 mins or so.
Two things make zerg extreamly powerful right now.
Spawn larva
Creep tumors and overlord creep.
Spawn larva is just too good when you have saved up your larva on all hatches late game to instantly make another 150 supply in 20 sec. Protoss and terran have to spend shitloads of gold on production buildings where its allmost free for zerg. Playing late game macro war is downhill battle against zerg.
I think invisible creep tumors really make scouting and mobility too good for zerg. For 25 energy you can cover half map in creep. Possible fix would be to make max 2-3 extra creep tumors off one. It doesnt feel like much of a sacrifise for zerg to use creep tumors now, like it is with terran and mule/scan. Maby increase energy for creep tumors to atleast 50 would make it a harder choice.
I totally agree. While spreading creep everywhere is very Zerg-like, it gives them too decisive of a defender's advantage compared to the other races. In SC1 it was accepted to call the Terrans the defensive race of choice.
Despite the ability to lower depots, Terran is secondary to Zerg in SC2 in terms of defense. You get on that creep and Zerg forces, especially speedlings and Banelings, are on you instantly - not to mention all other ground moving quicker as well. Meanwhile they can produce vast amounts of forces far quicker than in SC1 because of Spawn Larva - enough that I feel it outweighs MULE benefits. So they get their reinforcements on you instantly. And movable sunkens allow them to shift their "static" defense to get a better position.
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PvT, P is favored if P chooses to do an early immortal push, but after T gets ghosts, T is favored.
PvZ Z is favored from beginning to end. Z can open with so many options - lings, banelings, roaches, hydras, mutas, or any combination of them. P can't scout them until observer is out so it's too hard to react. Mid game is okay, but Z will probably secure an advantage from early game, so it probably won't be in P's favor. Late game = broodlords.
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1. Terran
2. TvP T if he goes bio, if mech and P deals with it P will win, so about 50-50, PvZ, I'd say 70-30 (people cry for mass mutas and/or broodlords, but timing push is so devastating for Z), ZvT, 30-70, ravens just kill anything, people cry for nerf for the broodlords but thats basically all the Z has left... it's amazing and rediculous at the same time when you see 4-5 ravens kill tons of Z units within a couple secs and Z losing the game as he can only mass units and still might lose the game even when he has 3 more bases than T.
3. Easiest to play Z
4. Easiest to play and actually win the game, T.
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Even though I don't believe in favoritism, I do like to see what the general consensus is. I am very surprised that Z got the "easiest race" vote over P. Then again, who knows how many P or Z players actually voted there...
I think a better way to phrase it instead of "favored" is "which is more developed in XvX"...
I can see a lot of bans stemming from this thread ;P
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On April 20 2010 05:10 zomgzergrush wrote:
Even though I don't believe in favoritism, I do like to see what the general consensus is. I am very surprised that Z got the "easiest race" vote over P. Then again, who knows how many P or Z players actually voted there...
I think a better way to phrase it instead of "favored" is "which is more developed in XvX"...
I can see a lot of bans stemming from this thread ;P
how is protoss any easier than zerg?
it requires more micro AND has harder macro.
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I feel like the races are evenly balanced, but just don't think the units are balanced well enough (i.e. soft counters vs hard counters) to allow the diversity of strategy we saw in starcraft 1. For instance, although I think that any strategy can be stopped, I think its hard to be creative with your play when the only way to counter banshees in pvt, for example, is with air units, or when the only way to fight marauders is with immortal.
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I don't see how anyone could possibly vote for protoss being the easiest race to play when protoss has the toughest mechanics out of all three races.
Terran is a close second for this, but my god zerg is like three times as easy to play (never go back to your base for macro, no spellcasters so you just 1a to victory, queen mechanic completely removes the tension between building drones or army units)
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I find toss macro to be the easiest mainly due to warpgates. They also have the least number of units so micro is relatively easy as well. Their scouting (obs) is also super easy and insanely good.
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I've randomed and IMO late game P is easiest to macro. Select all warpgates, spam units. Chronoboost two robo's. Zerg still needs to inject individually at each hatchery all day in order to keep up peak efficiency. I don't see why you would need to go back to your P base to macro, either. Late game you have to at most what...chronoboost a few robos that are in the same place?
As far as micro, I really don't find sentry micro incredibly stimulating. Yes sentry micro cutting forces in half is nice and all but I don't feel that it outweighs the fact that P units still are incredibly tough and well...don't ever die to one hit. To anything. Took an extra hit? That's okay it's still shields. Compared to: Took an extra hit? Too bad the units are dead now.
Knew this thread was gonna open quite the can of worms.
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1. The balance in total: which is the strongest race overall?
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, TvZ
3. What is the easiest race to play? P? T? Z?
1. ZERG
2. Z>P, T>P, Z>T
3. Z/P
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On April 20 2010 01:50 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:41 Ryuu314 wrote:
@Antimage: Protoss has problem with mass mutas into mass hydras/roaches. It's very, very easy for Zerg to open with a quick spire, just mass up a TON of mutalisks and just rape your econ line. It's very hard to get enough stalkers/sentries that early in the game to counter a mass muta strategy. All the while they just tech up to hydras or mass roaches. The void ray push isn't as effective anymore because Zergs are learning to build a few spores, which combined with a queen absolutely demolishes early void ray rushes. In addition, Protoss can't keep up Phoenix production to be on par with Muta production due to the higher cost (and build time) of Phoenix and spawn larva. If you throw down enough stargates to match Zerg's constant muta production you'll just be raped when they switch over to hydras or even just mass speedlings, which is very easy to do. If they use their gas on mutas, it means they won't have gas for roaches hydras. Which means they'll be reliant on spine crawlers/zerglings, which can be completely negated with blink stalkers or a well microed immortal push. If they mass lots and lots of spine crawlers to make it impossible to push in, then you can do the same, cannon up and get blink stalkers to fight those mutas. Once you have an ob in their base, you can get blink stalkers up into their main before they have a critical mass of mutas. I truly believe phoenixes are NOT the answers to a mass muta zerg player, but a mass muta strategy is very susceptible to timing hits on their main like using blink stalkers or elevator tactics with the warp prism. My suggestion is for you guys to stop opening up stargate in all your PvZ's - a surprise tactic works once in a while, but you can't hope to win your games like that. EDIT: oh wow i mentioned blink stalkers a lot didn't I ... well I think I got the point across.
The thing is, I rarely ever open with stargate. I only do so on maps with short air rush where void rays can still do some damage. The issue is that you need something like 1.5-2 stalkers for every muta the zerg brings. In addition, as the muta mass grows, the need for sentry's guardian shield grows as well. What many zergs do is they force you to build a good number of stalkers in order to counter their mutas and while they keep you in your base through muta harassment, they can either choose to tech, build more mutas, or expand. You as the Protoss player are forced to stay in your base and defend. You can't execute an immortal push because mutas shut down immortals. Additionally, on certain maps, like DO and scrap station, it's extremely hard to move your stalkers back and forth between your main and natural, so the muta harass is pretty much guaranteed several probe kills.
Countering mutas for Protoss is extremely reliant on scouting. As soon as you scout the Spire being put down you need to immediately start building stalkers and sentries. A slight delay for whatever reason will pretty much cost you the game. Defending against mutas can be done. It's not impossible by any means, but it's just very hard to deal with. Furthermore, once Zerg reaches a large enough mass of mutas, it becomes pretty much impossible to stop them with stalkers and sentries due to the bounce attack despite using guardian shield; hence me saying that it is absolutely imperative that you are able to whittle down the muta numbers one by one every time Zerg harasses.
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On April 19 2010 23:57 Brucy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 23:46 wbz0rn wrote:On April 19 2010 22:01 BillyMole wrote:+ Show Spoiler +...I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful...
2. Which race is favored in which matchup? PvT, ZvT, PvZ
ZvT - T is probably favored slightly due to a general Z lack of tools to deal with MMM ball, but this one is very close. If the Z takes the initiative and keeps up the harass, he can easily take it down.
PvZ - P favored. I'm sure many will argue this, but overall I'd say P is definitely favored. The later the game goes, the more of a chance Z has if he macroes up properly, but even then, the P force just has a lot more tools to wipe out a Z. + Show Spoiler +isnt that... erm... a contradiction? how can Z probably be most powerful race but at the same time less favored in every matchup due to their lack of tools in your opinion? o.O + Show Spoiler +
Exactly what I was thinking.. Automatically responding with Z when u see who is the most powerful ftl.
Both of you chose to selectively edit the quote. That sentence actually reads : At low-level play I'd say Zerg is probably the most powerful. The entire paragraph before that was me saying Protoss is the most powerful at high level play.
The matchups were written from a high-level play perspective. If I tailor them to low level play, Zerg crushes both of the other races fairly easily, since nobody has the micro needed to make Protoss nor Terran armies decent.
I would appreciate it if you responded to statements within context, rather than selectively editing and inferring contradictions that did not exist in the original post.
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On April 20 2010 05:40 -orb- wrote:
I don't see how anyone could possibly vote for protoss being the easiest race to play when protoss has the toughest mechanics out of all three races.
Terran is a close second for this, but my god zerg is like three times as easy to play (never go back to your base for macro, no spellcasters so you just 1a to victory, queen mechanic completely removes the tension between building drones or army units)
which mechanics do you mean? warpgates? dont think they are hard to use at all esp considering how powerful they are. only crono boost needs quite some attention to use well.
imho lots of it comes from 3 things:
1. P can just go warpgate/robo in all matchups and be perfectly fine/pressure alot. p atm rarely has to adapt much. the enemy adapts to what P does.
2. standart gateway units cover almost ervything the other races can throw at you esp early.there is no weakness and if there is one -> forcefield and wait it out.
3. besides forcefield/storm (which are easy to use with smart casting) P can just aclick and do super fine. while Z/T have to fight for position,focus stuff and overall has to fight harder to beat a equal P army the p mostly just has to make sure his collosi arent out in the open.
i dont say P is the easiest and i dont say there isnt much more p can do. i just say i can see where the mindset comes from.
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I'd say Terran has to do the most adjusting. Of the three, T feels like "what you stick with" matters more. As has been mentioned, Toss can do just fine off 4-5 warp/robo. Zerg can do whatever, tech switch whenever (has been the case since BW). Terran requires a bit more attention to what the other player is doing. Protoss' macro mechanic is the most difficult to remember/use, in my opinion. Although warp-in is fairly easy to stay on top of. I don't like the building all-select for terran. Tabbing through can get slightly confusing. But maybe I'm just new ^^
I think Zerg has the greatest macro potential. And therefore they'll be determined as the 1a/2a race. But it isn't all true. Zerg has to deal with a lot of bullshit, and has the most difficult time cheesing (the only real cheese I can think of is all in speed ling, but you can't hide that). So, although they can macro up and out-expand the best, they fall short in other areas.
To answer the real question, though, I think the races are fairly balanced. Some tweaks here and there are of course necessary, but nothing really stands out as a 1a/2a or severely micro intensive race. Other people's opinions notwithstanding. :O
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And yeah, this thread has biases seeping from its pores ^^
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I was thinking of creating such a thread after StarCraft2's release, but I've found this one through searching.
I hope we can get some up-to-date votes (we've learned more since beta) based on the current situation. I'm curious whether polls will be as they're now or they'll change.
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EDIT OH WAIT THIS IS OLD
SILLY ME FOR NOT CHECKING DATE
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wtf... talk about old-ass thread...
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these polls are kinda useless, might as well put up "what race do you play?"
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Katowice25012 Posts
Not a useful or interesting bump.
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EPT
