I have just encountered a rush from zerg that I think glitched.
Zerg is all standard until he makes a queen, rushes it to your base with 6 drones and about 8-10 zerglings. One drone makes a hatch and then cancels it quickly allowing creep. Queen builds a tumor there. While the tumor is spreading they start making 5-6 spine crawlers. Also preventing you from killing them as he has now spawned 20 zerglings by now.
Anyway to counter this as Terran as by the time I had more resources as him and was just got my 3rd barracks done by the time the spine crawlers destroyed my wall and 30+ zerglings just flooded in. Killing my 5 marines and 3 marauders that i had no choice but to micro and still lost. This happened at the 7 minute mark.
This little glitch is too quick for Terran as I said he had 5+ spine crawlers out and 18 zerglings protecting when I just got my 3rd barracks up and constantly have near 0 minerals Marcoing well. He had started his spine crawlers before the 5 minute mark. Seems like a very unfair glitch that grants a win just like Terran can not counter 4- gate zealot rush very well at all.
I have encountered this rush about 5 times today and every time I tried something different, but nothing seemed to work as I could not get the number of units I needed to destroy the spine crawlers and the zerglings. If I target the zerglings then the 5 spine crawlers spawn and I could not deal with that. Also because he doesn't have many drones anymore he doesn't have to make overlords. He just gives up a drone for a spine crawler and makes more zerglings. I hope the glitch is fixed because right now Terran can not beat it, because it's just to quick.
For Z to pull drones and a queen across the map, then losing minerals canceling a hatchery, and then more drones throwing up crawlers, I don't see how he can have any sort of economy while doing this.
So in the time that it took to lumber the queen over, make 8-10 zerglings, have enough for another hatchery, make 20 zerglings all the while they have very few drones mining... and then also have the minerals for 5-6 spine crawlers, and all you have is 5 marines and 3 marauders?
You didn't scout him to see if he was doing any funky shit like pulling 6 drones from his mineral line. If you saw this you wouldn't have spammed more raxes but made units instead ?
This obviously is an all-in. I would just put down 2 bunkers behind my wall and relocate my wall so that Marauders in bunkers can kill any spine crawler trying to hit that wall. Marauders in bunkers should have the same range as spine crawlers.
I think what this demonstrates is that you can't just wall in, invest heavily in economy and tech, and expect to be safe regardless of what your opponent does in the early game.
I had more building, but I was planning to wall myself in then push out after expo. I saw w/ a scv drones, but I figured he was quick expanding somewhere random where I wouldnt expect to look. Did not expect what he did because I never saw this build before so I was planning to tech up quick, expo and build up mmm w/ thor's and tanks.
Well first of all your first barrack should be built at 11/11 atleast that's how most terrans do and instead of 3rd barrack factory will be nice and not suiciding all units will be nice as well and make extra depots if u have 500 minreals n you see ur depots are getttin attacked
Problem 1 - You scouted way too late Problem 2- you ran right by his strange move and didn't seem to notice it. Problem 3 - Upon seeing him setup outside your base, you chose to continue pumping rax, i believe a Factory and a couple of hellions would have been far more beneficial or at the very least a reactor to start pumping mass rines. This would have been possible because you had a huge econ advantage and zerg had basically none. Also a bunker would of helped massively as well. Problem 4 - You should have harassed those lings constantly while those spines were being built. He didn't have enough of them there at that time to pose a real threat and didn't have enough econ to produce enough to keep up with you.
What happened was the zerg went with an all in. If you had reacted correctly, you would of handed z a loss easily. You simply chose the wrong tactic and did not adapt to the situation.
You macro could have been a lot better as other posters have mentioned. The viability of this rush is definitely not proven by your replay.
However, I think the rush does abuse an unintended glitch: A canceled hatchery should not produce usable creep. It's clear that Blizzard wants to make creep a strategic part of SC2, with the inclusion of the overlord's vomit and queen creep tumors. The overlord's vomit is only accessible after lair tech, which suggests that blizzard realizes the potential imbalance of free-standing creep early in the game.
The canceled hatchery seems like an abusive way to place a creep tumor early in the game. It would only be useful for an all-in rush such as this, but it seems like it is an unintended mechanic when you consider the other creep generating abilities.
On April 19 2010 02:33 Equaoh wrote: 1) Are you platinum? 2) Needs 7 more replays. Try playing with a friend and practice specifically against this strategy.
I think you only need 8 replays to call a strategy/unit imbalanced
On April 19 2010 02:54 PiSan wrote: However, I think the rush does abuse an unintended glitch: A canceled hatchery should not produce usable creep.
This had to be programmed specifically into the game. It couldn't happen by accident.
It costs 75 minerals, you need 300 minerals in the bank to do it, and you need a slow-moving, expensive queen present to cast a creep tumor. I don't think it's going to break the game any more than proxy pylons or bunker rushes.
On April 19 2010 02:13 BDF92 wrote: So in the time that it took to lumber the queen over, make 8-10 zerglings, have enough for another hatchery, make 20 zerglings all the while they have very few drones mining... and then also have the minerals for 5-6 spine crawlers, and all you have is 5 marines and 3 marauders?
My thoughts exactly... Just didn't have the balls to say that since I'm a newbie around the forums..XD
The guy is going all in on a no gas build. I'm not terran, so I don't know the timings, but if you got out a single siege tank it'd be over. If you got some reapers, it'd be over even sooner. If you got a single banshee it'd probably be over, get two and it'd definitely be over. You should be able to do at least one of these in this situation.
There was a thread talking about this "glitch" LOL. I don't think it's unfair - and you do need at least 7 more platinum-level replays or this gets closed
On April 19 2010 02:30 Funchucks wrote: I think what this demonstrates is that you can't just wall in, invest heavily in economy and tech, and expect to be safe regardless of what your opponent does in the early game.
Thanks for the advice. I think my main problem was that I thought he was just going to randomly expand somewhere on the map so. I was not aware that this rush existed. Also that macro that game was bad at best. Thanks for the help have a great day everybody.
On April 19 2010 03:56 Twinweapon wrote: Thanks for the advice. I think my main problem was that I thought he was just going to randomly expand somewhere on the map so. I was not aware that this rush existed. Also that macro that game was bad at best. Thanks for the help have a great day everybody.
And you didn't expect or scout it the five other times you claimed it happened to you today?
I'm usually not responding to thread asking for help, but your case is a little more interesting than usual cry for nerf. You played decently in this replay, and there is a kind of fashion these days to go for spine rush. And moreover I kind of liked the way to create a creep tumor out of nowhere, so I'll try to be helpful.
I'm Zerg, not so bad of a player (10th plat). You did almost well to defend this rush. Let's admit your opponent succed into creating 5 crawlers, and some creep tumors. A crawler has a range of 7, which is outranging all your units (you had few marines & a marauder). BUT his army can't go forward since he has no creep, so the first thing to do is to position you units just at the limit range of spine crawlers, to prevent any creep tumor to pop to far forward.
This won't stop the rush, but it will delay it pretty well. He'll have to move his crawlers forward to be able to throw down a new creep tumor, and during this process (10sec for burrowing), you'll have free shots on the crawlers.
And once again you won't kill them, but only damaging them. But you just have to pull back a little bit, and start again : put all your units in an arc so that you'll prevent a new creep tumor to come to far in your base.
The only thing you have to do is DELAY his push. He had half your workers, so you'll be way ahead once you'll push him back. Doing this kind of positionning, back and forth, will damage the crawlers little by little, and normally you won't loose any M&M. Just keep your production building far away from the rush zone, to keep them safe. You'll outmacro him rather fast. Fast enough to kill few crawlers no problem.
Also, keep in mind that all of his strategy depends on creep. If you missed to kill one of his creep tumor (let's imagine he overmicro'd you / distracted you), you can still scan and snipe it. No creep tumor, no rush. Creep tumors are the real key of this rush.
Hope I was helpful for you. Thanks for sharing this nice cheese. Have fun with SC2 Twinweapon
I was planning to expo b/c that's what I thought he was going for, but that was until I saw creep and zerglings outside my wall-in and was like O DAM PROBLEM WTH IS THIS. I thought he was chesseing units outside my base, not spine crawlers until I saw them.
The fact that you put 'impossible to counter' in your thread title while encountering this only once (based on the single replay you provided) is just baffling.
Did you even try to counter this build before calling it impossible to counter?
Rofl, rename the thread title because it's not impossible to counter. Just because something is new and you couldn't find a way to beat it doesn't mean it's impossible to counter. You should probably do some more research and have a friend do this specific build vs you until you find a way to counter it before saying it's impossible to stop.
I love how when I call something overpowered/imbalanced I get temp banned, but when this guy does it with the same amount of evidence, nothing happens.
not impossible, but very creative and interesting.. i would tweak the zerg build to get way more lings early on.. you dont really need that much mins to make this work because by the time your queen slumbers over to opponents base, you'll have a shitload of mins piled up
i think a better use of this strat would be against double gate zlot rushers.. if you proxy spine crawlers at your nat you could get your expo up and running with ease.. will have to experiment though
The rush itself is definitely not OP nor the problem here. I would file a bug report about the creep upon the hatch cancel though, just in case it isn't intentional. I don't see a big problem with it ... since you have to give up so much to do it, but it may be unintended none the less.
That's not even a rush IMHO. Takes forever for that fat-azz Queen to bring her anthenae across the map. Reminds me a bit of the famous "Mothership Rush" :D
Didn't know that unfinished hatchery spawns creep... there might be something fundamentally wrong with that, regardless of whether or not this is easily defendable
On April 19 2010 07:34 tenpromicro wrote: i think a better use of this strat would be against double gate zlot rushers.. if you proxy spine crawlers at your nat you could get your expo up and running with ease.. will have to experiment though
Would hurt more than it would help... you'd have 75 less minerals early on when you couldn't afford it and the early spine crawler would mean you're also 100 minerals less than much sooner. I'd sooner just fend off with lings...
PS. As soon as you see the queen coming you know what's happening too...
On April 19 2010 07:52 DragonDefonce wrote: Didn't know that unfinished hatchery spawns creep... there might be something fundamentally wrong with that, regardless of whether or not this is easily defendable
Despite the fact that this "rush" itself is utterly useless, this could have certain utility for moving the creep pre-Lair. Though it is pretty costly at 75 minerals, plus the time when you're spending nothing to wait for 300 minerals, plus any Spawn Larva cycles that you miss due to the Queen being away from base and spending 25 energy on a tumor.
This might be worth it to establish a contain at the natural on maps like Kulas Ravine. But even then, it's pretty iffy.
On April 19 2010 02:10 Bac wrote: Even if she says shes on the pill, wrap that shit up anyway.
Have you read the rules on Teamliquid?... Shitty oneliners are bannable offence. Also the OP should better read the rules... you need multiple replays on platinum level if you are not a known player to provide evidence that something's wrong. Please read the rules before posting.
I don't think this build is overpowered at all since its all in, deal with it.
On April 19 2010 02:07 Twinweapon wrote: I have just encountered a rush from zerg that I think glitched.
Zerg is all standard until he makes a queen, rushes it to your base with 6 drones and about 8-10 zerglings. One drone makes a hatch and then cancels it quickly allowing creep. Queen builds a tumor there. While the tumor is spreading they start making 5-6 spine crawlers. Also preventing you from killing them as he has now spawned 20 zerglings by now.
Anyway to counter this as Terran as by the time I had more resources as him and was just got my 3rd barracks done by the time the spine crawlers destroyed my wall and 30+ zerglings just flooded in. Killing my 5 marines and 3 marauders that i had no choice but to micro and still lost. This happened at the 7 minute mark.
This little glitch is too quick for Terran as I said he had 5+ spine crawlers out and 18 zerglings protecting when I just got my 3rd barracks up and constantly have near 0 minerals Marcoing well. He had started his spine crawlers before the 5 minute mark. Seems like a very unfair glitch that grants a win just like Terran can not counter 4- gate zealot rush very well at all.
I have encountered this rush about 5 times today and every time I tried something different, but nothing seemed to work as I could not get the number of units I needed to destroy the spine crawlers and the zerglings. If I target the zerglings then the 5 spine crawlers spawn and I could not deal with that. Also because he doesn't have many drones anymore he doesn't have to make overlords. He just gives up a drone for a spine crawler and makes more zerglings. I hope the glitch is fixed because right now Terran can not beat it, because it's just to quick.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?4yygmwknr3n
Any insight is helpful Thanks
Just scout it... You can literally walk up, make a bunker, and your marines will take care of the rest. Unless you tried to do something greedy and don't have any marines.
On April 19 2010 02:07 Twinweapon wrote: I have just encountered a rush from zerg that I think glitched.
Zerg is all standard until he makes a queen, rushes it to your base with 6 drones and about 8-10 zerglings. One drone makes a hatch and then cancels it quickly allowing creep. Queen builds a tumor there. While the tumor is spreading they start making 5-6 spine crawlers. Also preventing you from killing them as he has now spawned 20 zerglings by now.
Anyway to counter this as Terran as by the time I had more resources as him and was just got my 3rd barracks done by the time the spine crawlers destroyed my wall and 30+ zerglings just flooded in. Killing my 5 marines and 3 marauders that i had no choice but to micro and still lost. This happened at the 7 minute mark.
This little glitch is too quick for Terran as I said he had 5+ spine crawlers out and 18 zerglings protecting when I just got my 3rd barracks up and constantly have near 0 minerals Marcoing well. He had started his spine crawlers before the 5 minute mark. Seems like a very unfair glitch that grants a win just like Terran can not counter 4- gate zealot rush very well at all.
I have encountered this rush about 5 times today and every time I tried something different, but nothing seemed to work as I could not get the number of units I needed to destroy the spine crawlers and the zerglings. If I target the zerglings then the 5 spine crawlers spawn and I could not deal with that. Also because he doesn't have many drones anymore he doesn't have to make overlords. He just gives up a drone for a spine crawler and makes more zerglings. I hope the glitch is fixed because right now Terran can not beat it, because it's just to quick.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?4yygmwknr3n
Any insight is helpful Thanks
Just scout it... You can literally walk up, make a bunker, and your marines will take care of the rest. Unless you tried to do something greedy and don't have any marines.
alas, marines in bunkers have range 6 - spine crawlers range 7. only the marauder get to par when in a a bunker, which you won't be able to build on creep. transfusion works quite well and i guess repairing does, too - but the latter screws with the whole cost argument.
The spine crawlers do extra damage to armored units, and thus walls. But honestly, this is just like any other cheese. The Zerg loses around 100 minerals by canceling that hatchery. They also had to save up for the hatchery in the first place so their economy is really hurt by this. If you scout this, you should just start pumping marauders and build bunkers. Marauders in bunkers have equal range as spine crawlers and they do bonus damage to the spines, as well. Transfusion on the spines shouldn't be as big an issue because you can repair your bunkers as well.
jajaj Somebody say... bunker rush ??? after the f..ing patch 8 for us... Zerg have design something that would nutts terran and protoss.... I hope that you find your answer
I watched the rep and i'm sorry but you're just all over the place man. You really can't aford to tie up all those resources queueing that many units that early, and you IGNORED HIS PROXY when you had vision of it wtf lol? Please don't call something impossible to defend, ever, unless you have fantastic evidence and credibility like Orb's reaper thread.
On April 19 2010 02:54 PiSan wrote: However, I think the rush does abuse an unintended glitch: A canceled hatchery should not produce usable creep.
This had to be programmed specifically into the game. It couldn't happen by accident.
Uh... what? It could easily happen accidentally.
Speaking as a programmer, I can say without doubt that there is no way that the programmers didn't know and consciously decide whether a cancelled hatchery would leave a patch of creep.
On April 19 2010 02:54 PiSan wrote: However, I think the rush does abuse an unintended glitch: A canceled hatchery should not produce usable creep.
This had to be programmed specifically into the game. It couldn't happen by accident.
Uh... what? It could easily happen accidentally.
Speaking as a programmer, I can say without doubt that there is no way that the programmers didn't know and consciously decide whether a cancelled hatchery would leave a patch of creep.
I agree. I think even if it IS a bug, isn't this one of those bugs that everybody kept saying we would find and use to push the game further into a meta game? Like all those bugs in BW that gave depth to the game?
And since the crawler tumor all in might be stopped easily, it doesn't mean that there won't ever be a use for using hatcheries for proxy creep. You don't even need to have your queen leave the base in some instances.
If you hatchery cancel at those red dots outside of your base, you can spread an existing creep tumor to it.
At the 5:25 mark you saw: 1) a creep tumor at your front door 2) a queen at your front door 3) at least 1 drone at your front door
Perhaps you've never met this before so you don't know how to counter it, but now that you've seen it, the answer is obviously to make 2 bunkers, a Marauder each inside (which you had time to make), and 1 or 2 scv's each to repair while you make depots in the back (your front 2 depots will be lost, but that is fine - you will be economically ahead. Instead of queuing up 3 marauders in your barracks, you could've made bunkers, etc. in the for a back wall, load units inside to be safe. Just don't let zerglings run in, which is simple.
I dont know if this is intended by blizzard to have creep when u cancel hatch, but this so called glitch is not the issue. The person basically did a tower rush on you and u need bunkers(can salvage for 100%) and marauders in them. While doing this u could send a few reapers to his main and destroy his drones
Lol at the people thinking that such a thing is immediately a glitch or bug. As already explained, how the hack is a programmer supposed to accidently put some some (rather more than just some in this case) lines of code into a script? Use your brain, it's most likely something that was intended. Whether or not the programmers foresaw this way ( I won't call it abuse) of using that feature is another thing. But that's seriously neither a glitch nor bug.
On topic: It's quite annoying to see all these imba threads being put up that don't follow the new forum rules and are in fact pretty dumb. Plat league - 8 replays. That'll save everyone of us a whole bunch of time explaining obvious stuff...
lol that guy had such good manners.. i always rage if i lose to dumb cheese. i tried this strat out in a bunch of customs today vs differetn ppl and its really a matter of how well the guy scouts.. also if he dindt go reapers it could have ended differently bc reapers are paper
what really does puzzle me is the statement that there's a bunch of zerg players going for this build, since the poster lost 5 times to it in one day. will try this for fun, but would expect opponents to just stop it. literally, whatever units they have would work - if they build any army at all. marauders in replay above would deny spore crawlers; a couple marines would scout/kill drones and with reinforcements - queen; not to mention marauders, tanks and banshees
This was clearly not an optimized attempt. Your minerals were over 1200 at one point before you started your proxy hatch. Instead of going 15 pool, you should try again with 12 pool or even 10 pool and see how early you can do it while still able to afford some Zerglings for defense.
I like it how he actually went reapers, of which waltzed right by those building spine crawlers. Those reapers could have cleaned it all up so easily before they even finished.
Not to mention the flimsy little tumor can easily be killed with scans and then its GG for all 3 spine crawlers.
To everyone stating whether it was intended or not for hatcheries to leave creep when they're created:
It is obvious that the programmers wrote the code in such a fashion that when spawning a hatchery, creep is also spawned. However this could very be an unintended consequence of the way they made starcraft 2.
SC2 zerg is unique from SC1 zerg. Zerg buildings in SC2 "burn down" when they are removed from creep. Theres probably just one algorithm that checks this. If there is no creep under a zerg building, start removing life. This would also include hatcheries, so they just made the hatchery come with creep, so it doesn't start "burning" as it builds
It's clever use of game mechanics, but I wouldn't go as far to say that the programmers intended for cancelled hatcheries to leave behind creep that can then be abused with creep tumors. I seriously doubt a programmer was thinking "Okay we'll make the hatch spawn with creep so it can be cancelled and then a creep tumor can be put on it, leading to interesting offensive spine crawlers."
As for the build itsself, its basically identical to an offensive proxy hatch build, only it comes quicker because you don't have to wait for the hatchery to finish before you start building sunkens
Speaking as a programmer, I can say without doubt that there is no way that the programmers didn't know and consciously decide whether a cancelled hatchery would leave a patch of creep.
That statement is also bullshit. Just because its in the game means the programmer decided it would be that way? Programmers overlook things all the time, thats why there's beta testing.
On April 19 2010 19:03 caution.slip wrote: To everyone stating whether it was intended or not for hatcheries to leave creep when they're created:
It is obvious that the programmers wrote the code in such a fashion that when spawning a hatchery, creep is also spawned. However this could very be an unintended consequence of the way they made starcraft 2.
SC2 zerg is unique from SC1 zerg. Zerg buildings in SC2 "burn down" when they are removed from creep. Theres probably just one algorithm that checks this. If there is no creep under a zerg building, start removing life. This would also include hatcheries, so they just made the hatchery come with creep, so it doesn't start "burning" as it builds
It's clever use of game mechanics, but I wouldn't go as far to say that the programmers intended for cancelled hatcheries to leave behind creep that can then be abused with creep tumors. I seriously doubt a programmer was thinking "Okay we'll make the hatch spawn with creep so it can be cancelled and then a creep tumor can be put on it, leading to interesting offensive spine crawlers."
As for the build itsself, its basically identical to an offensive proxy hatch build, only it comes quicker because you don't have to wait for the hatchery to finish before you start building sunkens
Speaking as a programmer, I can say without doubt that there is no way that the programmers didn't know and consciously decide whether a cancelled hatchery would leave a patch of creep.
That statement is also bullshit. Just because its in the game means the programmer decided it would be that way? Programmers overlook things all the time, thats why there's beta testing.
nailed it on the nose there, that's exactly what I was about to edit into my post! Also I'd like to point out, the creep behavior is more likely than not built into the engine, i.e. the way it degrades.
Bottom line is, theres no reason that T's should ever die to this. I can't think of one physically viable scenario where T is completely screwed and cannot do anything to stop this.
Yeah the impossible to counter part is kind of silly. You ought to have like 100+ plat replays or something to make such an ambitious claim. There is a thread dedicated to this strategy already as well so I for one do not see the point in letting this thread stay open.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://j.imagehost.org/t/0422/tumors.jpg)
