EPTNow apparently a lot of people in Korea see proleague as the biggest thing but Starcraft is a 1v1 game by nature. If your team sucks, there's almost no way you can win the proleague (even though JD came close) just like Federer can't win the Davis Cup by himself. Should a player have no chance of winning the most prestigious award just because he is on a bad team? I don't think so, and this is why I think individual leagues should be seen as more important as everyone is on equal footing.
[OSL] Bacchus OSL Semi-Final B - fantasy vs Jaedong - Page…
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
Now apparently a lot of people in Korea see proleague as the biggest thing but Starcraft is a 1v1 game by nature. If your team sucks, there's almost no way you can win the proleague (even though JD came close) just like Federer can't win the Davis Cup by himself. Should a player have no chance of winning the most prestigious award just because he is on a bad team? I don't think so, and this is why I think individual leagues should be seen as more important as everyone is on equal footing. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Either way, I think it's foolish to say that PL > SLs is anything more than politics and publicity. Starcraft is a INDIVIDUAL GAME. Since the removal of 2v2, and especially with the format that the PL uses, the only factor of teams is who you practice with, but even then we know they practice with plenty of other people. Until you actually have people switching out mid-game or go back to 2v2, SC will remain a game of individuals thrown onto a team. I may be wrong, but I can't help but feel that if you got the HONEST opinion of any player, that they would prefer the starleagues since it exemplifies what starcraft is. I also believe that if they did say Proleague, that they would either be lieing or more-or-less convinced by their coaches and sponsers it is what they should worry about. Also, from a fan perspective the only balanced way to look at starcraft is through the ind leagues. There you have 1v1 in bo3/5 where the better player almost always comes out on top. In the PL you have gimmicks like the super-ace and have such disparities in team skill levels that most sets are determined before they are played. That's my 2c | ||
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vaMpYr
France119 Posts
On August 15 2009 02:10 Stratos_speAr wrote: No, no, no, no. The Proleague is the most popular SC league in Korea. Furthermore, the team wins a lot more and gets a lot more recognition by winning the Proleague. A player winning an individual league gets the glory, not the team, and only part of his tournament winnings go to the team. let me tell you my opinion  i am the 1# jaedong's fan for sure . I have really hudge passion for SC and korean scene . even if i watch korean scene since 1999/2000 , i watch 100% of korean scene only for 2 years now . and there is my opinion : OSL and MSL was more popular in the past times , winning and OSL in 2001/2005 was the most great thing a progamer can ever touch . but since the PL of 2005 and 2006 when SKT ruled the earth , the team leagues have got so much popularity . and more and more with the ACE team made by the emperor . stork said in end of 2008 that now , winning and OSL doesnt give more glory than being an A-class in PL . but it used to . the team leagues are now really more intresting than individual leagues . each team can think about what player will play on what map thinking about the other team witch player they will put on this map .. ect ect . the PL is strategic , psycologic and beautiful . the best example is the PL finals . boxer will stay for ever the most smart player of SC . he find the best strategy to win jaedong in some ace match of some finale of most important PL of all time . im sure boxer would have won too if he played but maybe in a different way . PL can show the greatness of one player without showing him play . and i think it can become more and more important in the future . many players says that they care really more about PL than the individual leagues . fantasy played maybe his best game of his life on outsider . even if jaedong had won , fantasy was highest lvl possible . and jaedong too . i can assure you as biggest fan of jaedong that he played REALLY REALLY good considering the start game . if he didnt miss the last 2 minutes of the game , he would have won . both results would have been a legend . i like fantasy now but i just regret he is the boxer/oov puppet . i still wait for the next hero terran who will crush everyone on earth . i still wait the next nada or boxer . (oov sucks hard :p ) fantasy succeded vs the world best player in the stage the most important and for that , he will be for ever a legend , a hero . i think the future can be really intresting . koreans care more about PL because its friendship , its have confidence in his teamtates . the teams league are the most intresting thing in SC right now , even the STX masters makes me cry all day ( estro =((((((( ) . but dont forget jaedong is one of the most sucessfull player in PL of all time . in the PL 2007 , he was a GOD , a MONSTER , a LEGEND , a BEAST , a SANGOKU . he was something like 27-3 in stats at some day . obviously , the PL final killed him , making him lose the MSL ( calm played top zvz lvl ) , and forcing him to play in a really agressive way to win fantasy . we can see in his interview he care about PL as much as everyone . OSL is still a legend tourney , especially for the golden mouse and back to back OSL , so jaedong is showing everyone he is still the best with that . MSL is still a legend tourney with savior and bisu history . but the PL is the most important , you must accept that . i have some korean friend who lives in france for a few years , and he have a VERY good known of the korean scene . its all about PL . thats simple . and the bonjwa case is a dumb case i think , i dont see any player really dominating in some days . boxer used to lost many games , same thing for nada , same thing for savior ( his zvz lol ) . the only one we can talk about in this case is iloveoov maybe , but still , he lost many games too ( and i HATE him :p ) . and their dominance periode was all about 1 year . jaedong is here now since early 2007 . winning 3 OSL in less than 2 years will be some exploit . jaedong lose many games , same thing for bisu , flash , fantasy , stork ect ect . bonjwa case is close . and i like seeing jaedong lose sometimes in a brillant way ( jaedong vs fantasy@heatbreak PL round 4 ) . seeing him only win would be boring . i think OSL and MSL will be legendary for ever , but THE tourney is PL now . boxer said it clearly i think . one last thing , i watch 100% GOM games since the season 1 , and i really dont see so much motivation on the players . i dont think they care a lot . the jaedong/bisu special match was a almost a joke , it almost seems that bisu and jaedong took a drink just before and talk how they can give people best show possible . i even think that the bisu'mistake in the last game wasnt planned , maybe they talked in another drink after the show with jaedong telling to bisu he is an idiot in failing in their planned show . | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On August 15 2009 03:23 Mortality wrote: Best all time? Hello, have you forgotten NaDa here? 3 time OSL champ / 3 time MSL champ mean nothing to you? Not to mention all the other tournaments he won (KTF Premier League, GhemTV SL, ITV League, OGN Masters League...). Oh sure, these days the PL schedules of players like JD are incredibly hectic, but can you really put a man down for winning THREE starleagues in the same season? That's what NaDa did. It would be like winning OSL/MSL and GOM all in the same season. How's that possible? o.O | ||
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
Let's hope MSL (i.e. Iris) delivers otherwise the final stages of the individual leagues this season are going to be pretty low on the epicmeter. I'm going to laugh so hard if the OSL finals happen to be a remake of Savior vs Chojja. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On August 15 2009 03:37 Matoo- wrote: Just watched game 3 on YouTube. I'm not impressed. Fantasy must be so pissed off at himself. At least now I don't regret oversleeping this morning. Let's hope MSL (i.e. Iris) delivers otherwise the final stages of the individual leagues this season are going to be pretty low on the epicmeter. I'm going to laugh so hard if the OSL finals happen to be a remake of Savior vs Chojja. Yeah, he could have had a chance but he was a bit careless with his first marine and his 3rd (?) which he lost in his mineral line. | ||
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Krackling
United States96 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
Have you followed pro SC at all? Or are you just one of those clueless people that started following it recently because of SC2? | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
I have an extreme dislike for Fantasy. Uses way too many neo-boxer cheese rushes and I love seeing him get bashed. This is just me venting my frustration against Boxer 3-0 Yellow with allin scv rushes. I never got over that. | ||
Jonvvv
Norway1530 Posts
Commentator: oh......... Everyone: OOOOOOOOHHHHHHH xD | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 15 2009 03:23 Mortality wrote: Best all time? Hello, have you forgotten NaDa here? 3 time OSL champ / 3 time MSL champ mean nothing to you? Not to mention all the other tournaments he won (KTF Premier League, GhemTV SL, ITV League, OGN Masters League...). Oh sure, these days the PL schedules of players like JD are incredibly hectic, but can you really put a man down for winning THREE starleagues in the same season? That's what NaDa did. It would be like winning OSL/MSL and GOM all in the same season. I haven't forgotten about Nada, I merely said JD would be a serious candidate for the title. Winning 3 OSLs (if he beats Yarnc that is), 1 MSL, 1 GOM tourney, winning 67% of all his games, all in the modern world of SC (with Stork, Bisu, Flash etc to compete with) and at the age of 19 is a ridiculously strong feature that shoudn't be underestimated. | ||
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
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FireGuyX
United States1712 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
First of all, TvT finals is alot more boring than ZvZ finals, and it'll be good if all your douchebags don't watch because then the stream won't be as laggy  Fantasy cheesed JD with bunker rushes constantly in the finals and Zerg cheese like 4 pool is extremely risky and easy to defend against, while Terrans get a shitload of options to cheese Z and its not even that all-in. Stop crying, T is suppose to win verses Z because of balance problems but one time that it doesn't, you guys cry to death | ||
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nK)Duke
Germany936 Posts
On August 15 2009 04:22 FireGuyX wrote: I said earlier that Fantasy had the best TvZ, but after watching this series he clearly does not. Yeah I know he's facing Jaedong, but watching game 2 he attempted a mech to mm built like what Flash does and his micro, and game management is obviously not as good as Flash. Flash is inconsistent in TvZ, but it has more to do with some greedy built that doesn't work. After beating July, Flash perfected his bionic built. Fantasy showed some weaknesses in TvZ, that I wasn't aware of. fantasy only has boxer and iloveoov. without them, he would be nothing. | ||
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Krackling
United States96 Posts
On August 15 2009 04:10 Tien wrote: When zergs cheese, it is out of frustration against terran cheese. I have an extreme dislike for Fantasy. Uses way too many neo-boxer cheese rushes and I love seeing him get bashed. This is just me venting my frustration against Boxer 3-0 Yellow with allin scv rushes. I never got over that. What about JD's 4pool was "out of frustration against terran cheese"? I play Zerg too, and I think you are blinded by your bias in favor of your race. Boxer's annihilation of Yellow simply showed that Boxer was in a class of his own in terms of micro, at least at the time. None of the complaints you could have are any better than those from the terran. Poor fantasy couldn't scout the four pool until the lings were a few feet from his front door! That's how this game is. And even with those adverse circumstances, Fantasy defended well enough that JD had to seriously trick him into moving those scvs to reopen any chance at all of winning. By nature, good cheese will catch you off guard. Is that too much of a problem for you? | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Well congrats to him and hopefully he wins the finals. As to Fantasy, umm really feel sorry for him. He has been getting so close to a title yet something always comes to close that door. Stork in strongest form, and JD twice. Next season man, next season | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 15 2009 04:24 AzureEye wrote: huh? I really don't see that many ppl crying at all -.-lol at all the Terran fanboys crying to death screaming that JD cheesed and hope Yarnc takes him down and ZvZ finals is boring, they're not gonna watch, etc. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On August 14 2009 22:08 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy is not known to be clutch. Not trying to be a dick, but it's why he was sent out before Bisu in PL. Among other things like his 2-5 ace match. apparently skt1 disagrees. he was sent out as the ace in proleague grand finals, that speaks a lot for itself. he won his games, too. sorry but i don't buy your argument of "fantasy is not known to be clutch." it's merely what you think. i don't really understand what you mean by him being sent out before bisu. yes, fantasy has lost in finals, but i have to disagree with everything that shikyo said in his post. i don't see how you can possibly agree with any of that. he is clearly one of the best terrans, and he has proven he can win important games by pulling through in proleague grand finals. EDIT: I just read your post again and I might have completely missed your sarcasm | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13911 Posts
On August 15 2009 04:22 FireGuyX wrote: I said earlier that Fantasy had the best TvZ, but after watching this series he clearly does not. Yeah I know he's facing Jaedong, but watching game 2 he attempted a mech to mm built like what Flash does and his micro, and game management is obviously not as good as Flash. Flash is inconsistent in TvZ, but it has more to do with some greedy built that doesn't work. After beating July, Flash perfected his bionic built. Fantasy showed some weaknesses in TvZ, that I wasn't aware of. like he can't react under the pressure? | ||
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