[OSL] Ro36 Group H - Page 26

On January 09 2009 21:23 Hot_Bid wrote:

I don't think it's this simple. Nobody plays PvZ like Bisu. Nobody. It's not even close. Lots of players try to play like Bisu, but they never get it right. Most of the dragons have their own PvZ styles, each subtly distinct from each other, but Bisu's is just far different. Kal's is the closest, but Bisu is still far and away different.

It's the same with July, Savior, and Jaedong in ZvT during their respective eras. You cite Savior as someone who changed the ZvT, he did but only in the defiler / hive play part. He never used his mutas the way Jaedong, Yarnc, or Luxury did with their ultra-aggressive two hatch muta builds. Savior rarely if ever killed Terrans with his mutas, he often just kept the mutas alive well into late game to stop drops, harass expansions, etc.

Imo the timeline for PvZ / ZvP strategically goes as follows (pardon me if its not 100% correct, i'm not that sure):

• Protoss do one base builds, they are successful on maps with really short rush distances like Requiem. They also succeed on island maps for obvious reasons. But on maps with long distances, easily defendable naturals, or cliffs, Protoss gets owned by lurkers and late game ZvP.
  
  
• FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
  
  
• It gets even worse with Savior at the top. Even though no other Zergs are showcasing the type of dominance Savior does, it still feels impossible. Savior takes the map, turtles with lurkers and scourge, and then plows you over late game with ultras. Best case scenario? Allin or elimination race like Nal_rA did on peaks. The true dark ages of PvZ.
  
  
• Bisu shows up and introduces FE and corsair play. Corsairs absolutely rape Zerg. Read this thread for why: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60959. Protoss start FEing every single time, and one base play 100% dies.
  
  
• Protoss players experiment with FE openings, all involving one or more corsairs, with reaver variants, dark templar variants, timing attacks with goons, etc.
  
  
• Jaedong comes up with a build on blue storm that exploits the corsair timing, by going 3 hatch spire and doesn't built mutas, but only scourge to stop corsairs while adding more hatches and drones and expos. THEN he switches to mass ground in time for the first Protoss attack, mixing in better, more efficient dark swarm and plague usage than ever before.
  
  
• Protoss get better at playing versus this, massing critical corsair numbers and using the reaver-FE variant which has become far more popular than the sair-dt opening. the "passive" protoss style of small-scale reaver-sair harass while taking bases and building a huge one-punch army is prevalent among all tosses now. Free, Bisu, and others incorporate more late game reavers into their armies to deal with ultraling better. Zergs respond with more dswarm and plague.
  
  
• Zerg haven't fully responded, but it seems the next step is burrow hydra / burrow ling (infolings!) and possibly parasite to deal with the harass, into mass hydra (with less lurkers) to allow for more mobility, aggressiveness, and exploitation the delayed storm. Not really sure how this will go yet.

The main difference between older ZvP and modern ZvP is that during the Savior era, Zergs simply played defensive and attempted to last until late game and then they were home free. Bisu gave Protosses a way to very effectively attack a Zerg who is doing this, before Bisu P's had no "safe" option to do this while taking bases.

Jaedong came up with a way to defend even better, but P's are still finding holes with new and improved mini reaver-sair builds and better army mix/timing/control. Thus, I believe that its now shifting the other way, that the Zergs will have to become more aggressive, using drops and risky plays to gain advantage over "standard" protoss FE-->harass-->expand-->army timing.

On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote:


I actually believe PvZ is pretty much balanced at this point. I just don't like the fact that map makers pay so much attention to keep the protoss players happy whilst taking no notice of the fact that ZvT is becoming more and more difficult for the zerg despite all the evolution in zerg play (which I personally think is bigger than protoss evolution). It actually doesn't matter whether Bisu stands alone at the top because protoss players now have no difficulty overcoming zergs. Maps like Raid Assault and Rush Hour have given way to protoss friendly maps like Katrina and Colosseum. Can Bisu strut his unique PvZ on maps like RH3? I think protoss have done well to evolve, but maps have played a large part in the recent protoss domination.

Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005. Nal Ra's FE did more to the protoss than you give him credit for. Everyone remembers how Savior toyed with the protoss in 2006, but seem to forget that most protosses had much less difficulty defeating zergs in general. People complained so much about Savior, they forgot about the other zergs who were having a real hard time against protoss in maps like Longinus. Even Savior played very cunningly on these maps in order to win.

In an age where TvP and PvZ has become pretty much balanced, it's a real shame that ZvT has become such a bitch to win.

On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote:
Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.

On January 09 2009 21:07 MrHoon wrote:

haha this is my favorite post of all time.

On January 09 2009 22:36 ondik wrote:
Thanks by.hero for destroying OSL. Dumbfuck.

On January 09 2009 22:48 Pioneer wrote:

ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.