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On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote:
Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
blue storm is pretty muta friendly?
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On January 09 2009 20:45 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2009 20:44 fearus wrote:
Whos going to cut their wrist like I am? Not me, I am celebrating because I am fans of  Flash  Jaedong and firebatheroAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
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OH MY GOD. Poor Bisu. Better luck in the next OSL.
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Blue storm is over a year old, and hasn't been that muta friendly for over half a year... I don't get why they changed it, 1.1 was fine.
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epic fail for 1000+ liquidbets
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On January 09 2009 21:05 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2009 20:45 MrHoon wrote:On January 09 2009 20:44 fearus wrote:
Whos going to cut their wrist like I am? Not me, I am celebrating because I am fans of Flash Jaedong and firebatheroAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
Which is quite likely to happen in the MSL because of what Bisu did at the MSL group selection. Hence the celebration and shouts of "karma".
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
i'm a sad panda 
btw theres a magma interview in scforall.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 09 2009 21:05 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2009 20:45 MrHoon wrote:On January 09 2009 20:44 fearus wrote:
Whos going to cut their wrist like I am? Not me, I am celebrating because I am fans of Flash Jaedong and firebatheroAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
haha this is my favorite post of all time.
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On January 09 2009 21:04 dongfeng wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote:
Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans. blue storm is pretty muta friendly?
The instant 2 hatch mutalisk killed terrans. They changed it.
When zergs die to mechanic play, people tell them to improve.
When terrans die to 2 hatch mutalisk by doing the same old 1 barrack expand play, people don't tell terrans to do 1 base play, or use valks to stop it, they just change the map so mutalisk raids become useless.
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9071 Posts
On January 09 2009 21:05 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2009 20:45 MrHoon wrote:On January 09 2009 20:44 fearus wrote:
Whos going to cut their wrist like I am? Not me, I am celebrating because I am fans of Flash Jaedong and firebatheroAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
Meh  I was extremely happy when JD was outed by han and casy in OSL, so I guess the reaction of the bisu haters is pretty much predictable and I pretty much dont care about them
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Germany2762 Posts
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wait does this mean bisu is eliminated??? YESSS
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By.hero is gona win the osl xD
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
WWWWHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT!!!!
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does bisu NOT want to win an osl?
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Braavos36401 Posts
On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote:
Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
I don't think it's this simple. Nobody plays PvZ like Bisu. Nobody. It's not even close. Lots of players try to play like Bisu, but they never get it right. Most of the dragons have their own PvZ styles, each subtly distinct from each other, but Bisu's is just far different. Kal's is the closest, but Bisu is still far and away different.
It's the same with July, Savior, and Jaedong in ZvT during their respective eras. You cite Savior as someone who changed the ZvT, he did but only in the defiler / hive play part. He never used his mutas the way Jaedong, Yarnc, or Luxury did with their ultra-aggressive two hatch muta builds. Savior rarely if ever killed Terrans with his mutas, he often just kept the mutas alive well into late game to stop drops, harass expansions, etc.
Imo the timeline for PvZ / ZvP strategically goes as follows (pardon me if its not 100% correct, i'm not that sure):
- Protoss do one base builds, they are successful on maps with really short rush distances like Requiem. They also succeed on island maps for obvious reasons. But on maps with long distances, easily defendable naturals, or cliffs, Protoss gets owned by lurkers and late game ZvP.
- FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
- It gets even worse with Savior at the top. Even though no other Zergs are showcasing the type of dominance Savior does, it still feels impossible. Savior takes the map, turtles with lurkers and scourge, and then plows you over late game with ultras. Best case scenario? Allin or elimination race like Nal_rA did on peaks. The true dark ages of PvZ.
- Bisu shows up and introduces FE and corsair play. Corsairs absolutely rape Zerg. Read this thread for why: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60959. Protoss start FEing every single time, and one base play 100% dies.
- Protoss players experiment with FE openings, all involving one or more corsairs, with reaver variants, dark templar variants, timing attacks with goons, etc.
- Jaedong comes up with a build on blue storm that exploits the corsair timing, by going 3 hatch spire and doesn't built mutas, but only scourge to stop corsairs while adding more hatches and drones and expos. THEN he switches to mass ground in time for the first Protoss attack, mixing in better, more efficient dark swarm and plague usage than ever before.
- Protoss get better at playing versus this, massing critical corsair numbers and using the reaver-FE variant which has become far more popular than the sair-dt opening. the "passive" protoss style of small-scale reaver-sair harass while taking bases and building a huge one-punch army is prevalent among all tosses now. Free, Bisu, and others incorporate more late game reavers into their armies to deal with ultraling better. Zergs respond with more dswarm and plague.
- Zerg haven't fully responded, but it seems the next step is burrow hydra / burrow ling (infolings!) and possibly parasite to deal with the harass, into mass hydra (with less lurkers) to allow for more mobility, aggressiveness, and exploitation the delayed storm. Not really sure how this will go yet.
The main difference between older ZvP and modern ZvP is that during the Savior era, Zergs simply played defensive and attempted to last until late game and then they were home free. Bisu gave Protosses a way to very effectively attack a Zerg who is doing this, before Bisu P's had no "safe" option to do this while taking bases.
Jaedong came up with a way to defend even better, but P's are still finding holes with new and improved mini reaver-sair builds and better army mix/timing/control. Thus, I believe that its now shifting the other way, that the Zergs will have to become more aggressive, using drops and risky plays to gain advantage over "standard" protoss FE-->harass-->expand-->army timing.
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On January 09 2009 21:03 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2009 20:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 09 2009 20:50 darktreb wrote:On January 09 2009 20:44 Rostam wrote:On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote:
Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress. Wow, I didn't realize that - it's pretty impressive. There's a reasonable (though not strong) chance that Hero actually ends up being the ONLY Zerg to get to RO16 of both leagues! JD will probably do it, but seeing as how he would have to beat two of FBH/Flash/Hwasin, hasn't even officially qualified for OSL RO16, and needs to play two matches to get into OSL, it's no sure thing! Some other Zergs have a chance too. 1. GGPlay is already seeded into OSL Ro16 2. Luxury, Yarnc, July, and Jaedong, the four best Zergs at the moment (aside from Effort) have yet to play their groups. You have to figure at least one of them makes it through. 3. MSL Ro16 is way too far off to be predicting whether one player is the only one to make it through, the racial distribution of 14/8/8 makes it really unlikely one race gets shut out. 4. MSL Ro32 Group A has three Zergs in it, one of Savior / Zero / Magma will make it. He's saying he might be the only zerg to reach the ro16 in both leagues at the same time. The zergs still in both leagues besides by.hero are: YarnC (who has pretty easy groups in both leagues, wouldn't be surprised to see him in both ro16s) Luxury (Kal and Leta in his MSL group, but he should be able to beat either Hiya or Shuttle in OSL. Wouldn't be surprised however if he's eliminated from one or both) Jaedong (Group of death in MSL, vs Tazza and Light in OSL) If he does make it even if all of the above 3 do that's some pretty elite company, nothing to scoff at in any case. He also might fall on his face, we'll just have to see.
Yeah, I was unclear earlier - I meant both RO16's at the same time. Thanks.
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bisu underestimated zerg guy. thats why he lost.
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EPT
