On January 08 2009 21:58 meegrean wrote: Bisu can't lose this.
Yep, if by.hero somehow manages to edge out RuBy then I can't see Bisu losing to such a new zerg. If RuBy does what most expect him to do by throwing hero aside with ease then I can't see Bisu losing to RuBy, seeing as RuBy is particularly weak at TvP in comparison to his other matchups.
After watching Bisu lose the first game in the finals, then win 3-1... After watching him lose the first to Flash on Gom, then win 2-1... I simply have no more doubts. After watching Bisu single handedly turning the whole MSL groups in 3 seconds, from one thing to a complete other story all together, with as much effort as sneezing... Making many fans a'cry. Behold the power of the strongest player in the world. Bisu is a powerhouse. Ruby and Hero are having nightmares tonight, and they already typed GG in their mind, Its OVER before it started! Bisu's OSL is at hand :-) Bisu 2-0 or 2-1, advancing comfortably either way.
If Bisu wins this 2-0 he will be around 2330, maybe slightly more but i don't think he can break the peak though (depends if he plays RuBy or by.hero and if the score of the first match is 2-0 or 2-1).
That means that in the next match he could play the worst noob out there and get the ELO peak easily.. well gues who he plays with
this is nonsense stop the jinx, after watching bisu vs flash you cant fear bisu losing to this players. Unless he get 5 pooled/hidra rushed or chessed in some way and even then i still give him over 60% chance.
Bisu will comfortably advance from this group. No doubt. Both of these guys have prety bad stats in vP and Bisu is tearing apart much better players then them these days.
fear for Bisu is expected, I'm always worried about my fav players no matter who they're playing. Luckily Bisu is not someone that is worried about pressure or plays on the defensive; if Ruby or hero plan on taking him down they better bring it
On January 09 2009 06:07 ondik wrote: If Bisu wins this 2-0 he will be around 2330, maybe slightly more but i don't think he can break the peak though (depends if he plays RuBy or by.hero and if the score of the first match is 2-0 or 2-1).
That means that in the next match he could play the worst noob out there and get the ELO peak easily.. well gues who he plays with
Bisu only got five points from Pusan and Pusan was at the same ELO rank as Ruby is now, so if he 2-0's Ruby, he will at maximum be at 2325. if by.hero wins, i'm not even sure Bisu cracks 2320 with a 2-0.
On January 09 2009 09:15 Frits wrote: Can't wait to return from exams tomorrow to find out that hero owned the shit out of ruby and bisu. Oh man that would make my day. Go hero.
On January 09 2009 09:32 Hot_Bid wrote:Bisu only got five points from Pusan and Pusan was at the same ELO rank as Ruby is now, so if he 2-0's Ruby, he will at maximum be at 2325. if by.hero wins, i'm not even sure Bisu cracks 2320 with a 2-0.
Really? Well I don't know how you use ELO here, in a board game i play it's like this: if players of same rating play, winner gets 16 points, then the higher the rating difference is, the less winner gets, till difference of about 750 points when he gets 0.
So i thought it could be similar here, but I see I was wrong
On January 09 2009 09:32 Hot_Bid wrote:Bisu only got five points from Pusan and Pusan was at the same ELO rank as Ruby is now, so if he 2-0's Ruby, he will at maximum be at 2325. if by.hero wins, i'm not even sure Bisu cracks 2320 with a 2-0.
Really? Well I don't know how you use ELO here, in a board game i play it's like this: if players of same rating play, winner gets 16 points, then the higher the rating difference is, the less winner gets, till difference of about 750 points when he gets 0.
So i thought it could be similar here, but I see I was wrong
for me the vlc stream works for about 3 sec and then stops :S worked perfectly until hitting 18:30. Live reporting would be much appreciated as a result!
On January 09 2009 18:40 Zinbiel wrote: for me the vlc stream works for about 3 sec and then stops :S worked perfectly until hitting 18:30. Live reporting would be much appreciated as a result!
Try opening it in windows media player, VLC stream doesnt work for me either. Click the link and have it open with WMP.
Im watching on Daum player right now. I dont know if that is different from Daum sports.
i used to use daum because it had excellent quality. but recently it hasn't been working for me =( all the IE players are pretty laggy, o well, thats why we got LRs i guess ^^
On January 09 2009 18:48 Itachii wrote: Could someone post Daum low quality link? (the one to open in IE) My vlc is lagging, Corinthos stream is laggy also
On January 09 2009 18:40 Zinbiel wrote: for me the vlc stream works for about 3 sec and then stops :S worked perfectly until hitting 18:30. Live reporting would be much appreciated as a result!
Try opening it in windows media player, VLC stream doesnt work for me either. Click the link and have it open with WMP.
commentators note that the lack of a 4th gas for by.hero is hurting him badly, a very true fact as ruby seems to be getting more and more further ahead
On January 09 2009 18:58 SaveYourSavior wrote: gg by by.hero. In the end, ruby played solid as hell. An extremely standard, yet still fun to watch, game of TvZ (imo).
Ruby also already has an engineering bay and 3 medics. He has 3 medics and 3 rines, probably got the medics to get early mana. Ruby turreting up now for mutalisk.
I really like hero's build, I'm using this exact one vs 1rax on colo , 2 hat muta timing with early third base. easy to get 3 base vs a mech build also.
Defiler mound going down as well as Guardians. First vessel is out. Many mnmf and 3 tanks are going to push out right now. Ruby needs to do something with this.
Lurkers are killing the temples.
Hero snipes a tank! Absolutley no-no from Ruby.
HE SNIPES THE VESSEL. Another one replaces it, but guardians are coming. Hes going to need those vessels.
Zerg stalling the ball with his lurker/ling for defilers and his guardians to pop. Guardians are morphing outside Ruby's nautral. Scourge gets the vessel! and Darkswarm is out.
Both streams (VLC and corinthos') went messy about the same time. Strangely enough the VLC stream seems far ahead. slideshow on both fronts makes me a sad panda :S
Ruby is on 5-base and Ultras are/ or should be around the corner.Ruby with an mnm ball and 2 vessels charge into lurkers. I thought he was going to pull it off for a second. Ruby's running out of options, time is running out/
- No Daum Sports - YaoYuan only works 15% of the time. - VLC plays for a couple seconds, buffers a few seconds, repeats until it gets perfect audio and slideshow - P2P only MSL. - Corinthos's MSl stream works miles better than his OSLs (which works 15% of the time)
After all that, I truly do appreciate the efforts especially Corinthos's, just wish I could watch it :|
On January 09 2009 19:23 wtflah wrote: - No Daum Sports - YaoYuan only works 15% of the time. - VLC plays for a couple seconds, buffers a few seconds, repeats until it gets perfect audio and slideshow - P2P only MSL. - Corinthos's MSl stream works miles better than his OSLs (which works 15% of the time)
After all that, I truly do appreciate the efforts especially Corinthos's, just wish I could watch it :|
Man dont whine, if you cant get a stream bad luck but be grateful for when you can
On January 09 2009 19:23 wtflah wrote: - No Daum Sports - YaoYuan only works 15% of the time. - VLC plays for a couple seconds, buffers a few seconds, repeats until it gets perfect audio and slideshow - P2P only MSL. - Corinthos's MSl stream works miles better than his OSLs (which works 15% of the time)
After all that, I truly do appreciate the efforts especially Corinthos's, just wish I could watch it :|
Man dont whine, if you cant get a stream bad luck but be grateful for when you can
Did I not just say I appreciated the efforts by the streams, it was ONE post.
By.Hero takes out a handful of SCV's with 3 lings, distracting with 6 on the ramped m& m force while Ruby runs by sunkens on the right side to snipe out by.hero's natural gas
the tiny m&m force momentarily forces drones to escape the natural before mutas take em out
Ruby's lost a lot of rines. Took out Hero's nat gas and forced hero to stop mining before mutas were able to mop up the inf. Not a lot of defense for mutas...
Stream freezes and it's back. I think the muta harass must have killed Ruby?
Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
bisu is probably surprised and clearly thrilled to be playing a zerg. sea said ruby is the scariest player in the mbc house, and i presume bisu knew how good ruby is/was from his time on mbc before moving to skt1.
but there's more at stake playing against by.hero, bisu's 2300++ rating, which would drop quite steeply if he even drops one game. fortunately the maps are balanced or favoring protoss, i can't see bisu losing unless hero does some really well executed all in. even that is really hard, bisu's first probe is insane.
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
On January 09 2009 19:50 Manifesto7 wrote: This will be a good indication of his upcoming MSL group too, as hero has to be on the same tier as zero and magma.
maybe, or maybe not. the map poll is completely different
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
Eh, JD does have a bad history with mech I guess but Flash (who brought back the use of Mech build) has more games lost using mech than won (lol). I dunno, when Luxury played against Mech he actually did a pretty good job beating it down at MST.
On January 09 2009 19:50 Manifesto7 wrote: This will be a good indication of his upcoming MSL group too, as hero has to be on the same tier as zero and magma.
I think zero and magma are both underrated zerg power houses.
Zero has the most flaweless muta control in the game right now, and supposedly daniel lee himself says magma is one of the best zergs he's seen, but tv nerves get him down.
On January 09 2009 19:51 ondik wrote: For everyone having troubles with stream - just go to http://live.plu.cn/hanguo/ and then click on PPS it's working perfectly! (the stream is little bit behind though)
Not working for me.. It gives me the little symbol indicating a picture is loading, then procedes to give me the red x. Do I need to have some kind of player installed? Sorry I don't watch the streams often..
On January 09 2009 19:50 Manifesto7 wrote: This will be a good indication of his upcoming MSL group too, as hero has to be on the same tier as zero and magma.
maybe, or maybe not. the map poll is completely different
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
Eh, JD does have a bad history with mech I guess but Flash (who brought back the use of Mech build) has more games lost using mech than won (lol). I dunno, when Luxury played against Mech he actually did a pretty good job beating it down at MST.
Check our luxury vs Forgg, then watch jaedong vs flash from the same day, terran did the same build both games . In the mst he(lux) was super solid I agree.
Where do you get your 'Mech' stats from flash? I am pretty sure they might be wrong.
there has to be a reason why all Ts aren't going mech, its not fool proof that its better than bio, look at hyuk rampaging through mech in his group. mbc though seems to be avoiding it, sea and light don't mech often thus ruby doesn't.
imo if you're playing vs bisu, you almost have to 9p or 9ps, then kill scout and either allin or expo behind. letting him 14nex and letting his probe see everything is basically autodeath.
On January 09 2009 19:55 Hot_Bid wrote: there has to be a reason why all Ts aren't going mech, its not fool proof that its better than bio, look at hyuk rampaging through mech in his group. mbc though seems to be avoiding it, sea and light don't mech often thus ruby doesn't.
Most of the super strong terrans don't use mech, because there is a skill cap. While there is no skill cap for bio play.
Sea/fbh/hwasin/forgg/mind all have such strong marine play it doesn't make since to switch.
I don't think mech is better then bio, perfect bio feels impossible to beat, its just that for terrans like fantasy or upmagic who don't have strong tvz bionic play it allows them to be more creative and beat zergs who are much better then them at 'standard' play.
Fantasy beating ggplay was an obscene injustice to zerg fans everywhere .
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
Eh, JD does have a bad history with mech I guess but Flash (who brought back the use of Mech build) has more games lost using mech than won (lol). I dunno, when Luxury played against Mech he actually did a pretty good job beating it down at MST.
Check our luxury vs Forgg, then watch jaedong vs flash from the same day, terran did the same build both games . In the mst he(lux) was super solid I agree.
Where do you get your 'Mech' stats from flash? I am pretty sure they might be wrong.
No stats lol, just guessed considering he lost alot of games using Mech in Zerg these days (including last season)
The thing about KTF vs Lecaf team is that the whole Lecaf team was trying to figure out how to fight back Mech build, and the best solution they came up with was "Deflect the first vulture wave by blocking 2nd hatch entrance using Evo Chambers and every building". And JD vs Flash, since it was the same build JD knew there is a very very small timing hole within that build. However, the only thing Flash did different was he built a CC instead of building an engineering bay widening the vulnerability which JD exploited.
Tears of the Moon was made to be a more Zerg friendly map because so many zerg players bitched at mapmakers saying the maps arent fair (hence the reason why the mapmakers were generous to make a large platform dedicated for overlords) and lotsa minerals spread out
This is off topic guys, but can someone confirm that the VLC stream is more than 220KBps? If so, tough luck for me, damn this location and it's crappy internet services.
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
Eh, JD does have a bad history with mech I guess but Flash (who brought back the use of Mech build) has more games lost using mech than won (lol). I dunno, when Luxury played against Mech he actually did a pretty good job beating it down at MST.
Check our luxury vs Forgg, then watch jaedong vs flash from the same day, terran did the same build both games . In the mst he(lux) was super solid I agree.
Where do you get your 'Mech' stats from flash? I am pretty sure they might be wrong.
No stats lol, just guessed considering he lost alot of games using Mech in Zerg these days (including last season)
The thing about KTF vs Lecaf team is that the whole Lecaf team was trying to figure out how to fight back Mech build, and the best solution they came up with was "Deflect the first vulture wave by blocking 2nd hatch entrance using Evo Chambers and every building". And JD vs Flash, since it was the same build JD knew there is a very very small timing hole within that build. However, the only thing Flash did different was he built a CC instead of building an engineering bay widening the vulnerability which JD exploited.
btw what are we talking about?
I was talking about how low level terrans need to use mech. Then we talked about jaedong being bad against mech then you made up incorrect stats about flash () then you talked about the differences between flash and forgg's play.
Overall I think mech gives terran a better chance against top tier zergs. You go valks and you take away insane muta control. You go mech and you take away insane defiler skills. You go mech and zerg has to guess about which variation your doing since there are so many.
I hold to my argument that terrans who aren't in the elite should be using mech style of play.
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
Eh, JD does have a bad history with mech I guess but Flash (who brought back the use of Mech build) has more games lost using mech than won (lol). I dunno, when Luxury played against Mech he actually did a pretty good job beating it down at MST.
Check our luxury vs Forgg, then watch jaedong vs flash from the same day, terran did the same build both games . In the mst he(lux) was super solid I agree.
Where do you get your 'Mech' stats from flash? I am pretty sure they might be wrong.
No stats lol, just guessed considering he lost alot of games using Mech in Zerg these days (including last season)
The thing about KTF vs Lecaf team is that the whole Lecaf team was trying to figure out how to fight back Mech build, and the best solution they came up with was "Deflect the first vulture wave by blocking 2nd hatch entrance using Evo Chambers and every building". And JD vs Flash, since it was the same build JD knew there is a very very small timing hole within that build. However, the only thing Flash did different was he built a CC instead of building an engineering bay widening the vulnerability which JD exploited.
btw what are we talking about?
I was talking about how low level terrans need to use mech. Then we talked about jaedong being bad against mech then you made up incorrect stats about flash () then you talked about the differences between flash and forgg's play.
Overall I think mech gives terran a better chance against top tier zergs. You go valks and you take away insane muta control. You go mech and you take away insane defiler skills. You go mech and zerg has to guess about which variation your doing since there are so many.
I hold to my argument that terrans who aren't in the elite should be using mech style of play.
Oh right, if that was what we were talking about I should've agreed with you Dunno why I disagreed with you.
On January 09 2009 20:05 antiq wrote: This is off topic guys, but can someone confirm that the VLC stream is more than 220KBps? If so, tough luck for me, damn this location and it's crappy internet services.
On January 09 2009 10:09 Shikyo wrote: I can only see Bisu dropping the first game to creative cheese... as much as I hope that he loses, I don't see it happening.
First half correct.. let's hope I was wrong about the second half and that Bisu loses.
On January 09 2009 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: Heros's strategic transitions in game 2 were fucking sick. I have no clue why every terran who isn't in the top 3-4 terrans isn't going mech. I mean even upmagic is now beating jaedong .....
according to Flash, against smart players it gets very difficult to use Mech
And cmon, you have to admit JD played terribly against Upmagic.
I don't consider by.hero a smart player. I think lower tier terrans should use it by default.
Jaedong plays terribly most games against mech. So does savior/july/luxur and effort. I think mech is a good idea for most terranns
Eh, JD does have a bad history with mech I guess but Flash (who brought back the use of Mech build) has more games lost using mech than won (lol). I dunno, when Luxury played against Mech he actually did a pretty good job beating it down at MST.
Check our luxury vs Forgg, then watch jaedong vs flash from the same day, terran did the same build both games . In the mst he(lux) was super solid I agree.
Where do you get your 'Mech' stats from flash? I am pretty sure they might be wrong.
No stats lol, just guessed considering he lost alot of games using Mech in Zerg these days (including last season)
The thing about KTF vs Lecaf team is that the whole Lecaf team was trying to figure out how to fight back Mech build, and the best solution they came up with was "Deflect the first vulture wave by blocking 2nd hatch entrance using Evo Chambers and every building". And JD vs Flash, since it was the same build JD knew there is a very very small timing hole within that build. However, the only thing Flash did different was he built a CC instead of building an engineering bay widening the vulnerability which JD exploited.
btw what are we talking about?
I was talking about how low level terrans need to use mech. Then we talked about jaedong being bad against mech then you made up incorrect stats about flash () then you talked about the differences between flash and forgg's play.
Overall I think mech gives terran a better chance against top tier zergs. You go valks and you take away insane muta control. You go mech and you take away insane defiler skills. You go mech and zerg has to guess about which variation your doing since there are so many.
I hold to my argument that terrans who aren't in the elite should be using mech style of play.
Oh right, if that was what we were talking about I should've agreed with you Dunno why I disagreed with you.
ahah. Well you are one of my favorite posters, so I don't mind having a conversation about both of us being right .
Sorry but the odds of winning any starleague is much higher playing on two than on one. And I think if he has to drop any that would be MSL, it's time for him to aim for the OSL and become bonjwa!
On January 09 2009 20:10 AttackZerg wrote: If bisu loses tonight and is only playing 1 league plus proleague I bet his odds of winning a forth msl will be much higher.
On January 09 2009 20:11 kemoryan wrote: Sorry but the odds of winning any starleague is much higher playing on two than on one. And I think if he has to drop any that would be MSL, it's time for him to aim for the OSL and become bonjwa!
i wouldn't be so sure about that, especially with modern proleague schedule demands. pretty sure if stork was only playing MSL he'd have beaten Kal in Club Day. players usually prioritize one league over the other.
I got this opened through VLC now i'll stream and it will be fine for about a minute, then the window will get a lot smaller and it is no longer streaming video to me anymore... Anyone else having this problem, how can I fix it?
overall bisu played very sloppy, I believe he lost over 6 reavers the entire game. When he first pushed out his army attacked without being backed up by the reavers then the army died, the reavers died afterward.
By.hero seemed to break bisu's mentality after the first game.
Unbelievable. Bisu just got flat out careless. This is actually probably bad news for Savior and the rest of MSL Group A as Bisu'll be back with a vengeance.
Anything can happen in SC but to lose a BO3 2-0 in your best matchup in the QUALIFIERS for OSL is pretty inexcusable =/
Dude wtf Bisu.... two starports against 1 gas 6 hat zergs ..... grrrr.....
I can't believe bisu goes into epic mode against jaedong, beats effort in an awesome game, beats flash 2/1 and then proceeds to lose to ..... hero.... a zerg so bad even savior knocked him out of gom, and you know you are pretty bad when savior beats you (these days)....
On January 09 2009 20:06 Patrio wrote: This is carma for Bisu fucking up the MSL group selection. This will be further proved when he goes 0-2 in his group and sAviOr and maGma advances
On January 09 2009 20:37 AttackZerg wrote: Dude wtf Bisu.... two starports against 1 gas 6 hat zergs ..... grrrr.....
I can't believe bisu goes into epic mode against jaedong, beats effort in an awesome game, beats flash 2/1 and then proceeds to lose to ..... hero.... a zerg so bad even savior knocked him out of gom, and you know you are pretty bad when savior beats you (these days)....
.
sAviOr knocked out by.great, best knocked out hero 2-1.
I for one think Bisu played rather good, hero just played great + got a good pos advantage where he could keep on dropping into bisus main\3rd non stop. And bisus shuttle control wasnt that bad, hero just did a great job of surrounding and sniping.
By the way, both saint and hero are playing the most solid zvp's in the world right now. Very defensive and strong. Anybody trying to master ZvP map control and macro watch Saint vs Free on andro, is it textbook ZvP.
Instead of baby feeding protosses double-nexus friendly maps with tons of minerals, they made Tears of the Moon which forces protosses to think twice about doing the same old. So you blame zergs for not evolving? Let's see you do any better when the maps are against you. Bisu-build my ass, your triumphs against the zerg were spoon fed.
I'm so stoked a zerg user made it to the final 16.
Btw, I like Bisu. But after the SC gods read these forums, they pretty much had to do this, or Bisu's p3nis would have been totally worn out from all the sucking.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Letmelose wrote: One thing I like about OGN.
They try new maps.
Instead of baby feeding protosses double-nexus friendly maps with tons of minerals, they made Tears of the Moon which forces protosses to think twice about doing the same old. So you blame zergs for not evolving? Let's see you do any better when the maps are against you. Bisu-build my ass, your triumphs against the zerg were spoon fed.
I'm so stoked a zerg user made it to the final 16.
right, because PvZ was so balanced in the days before forge fe.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote: Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o
Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress.
I dont know what positive you guys see in bisu's play. The very foundations of his PvZ (pumping sairs, multi harass) were absolutely nowhere to be seen. He deflected some of the drops pretty nicely but the game was over when hero took his 4th pretty much with ez - I'm sure bisu knew there was no going back at this point, his storm/dt drops came so late and he kept throwing up units carelessly in the middle of the map. Maybe he was practicing hard his PvT but even so his preparation for the first game was an absolute trash and his play in the second was more suitable for his form from 6 months ago. As much as I'm disappointed with him, Bisu deserved his fate, if he wants to live up to his ambitions he must prepare for every possible scenario. Ah I'm always so frustrated by his performance in the early stage of the tournaments, as rule he is auto semifinalists once he advances from his group or so but KTY is starting his tournaments soo difficult
On January 09 2009 20:42 Letmelose wrote: One thing I like about OGN.
They try new maps.
Instead of baby feeding protosses double-nexus friendly maps with tons of minerals, they made Tears of the Moon which forces protosses to think twice about doing the same old. So you blame zergs for not evolving? Let's see you do any better when the maps are against you. Bisu-build my ass, your triumphs against the zerg were spoon fed.
I'm so stoked a zerg user made it to the final 16.
right, because PvZ was so balanced in the days before forge fe.
Is it the Z's fault that the Protoss weren't smart enough to Forge FE? =D
Win some lose some. GOM + MSL + OSL + Proleague + New maps = too much too handle. Bisu is one of the better players out there, but to expect him to roll over everything on earth with ease is unrealistic. He obviously didn't practice on TotM that much (if at all?) and was probably practicing expecting to play Ruby.
He just didn't play well. Hero played fantastically and rightfully earned his spot. I don't want to sound like a blind Bisu fanboy (I'm not) but haters are going to be quick to jump on this, and they shouldn't get their hopes up. None of Starcraft's most dominant players have ever been simultaneously dominating in three starleauges + progleague.
64.56% /= 100%. Even Jaedong doesn't win every single ZvZ he plays, even if we expect him to.
He played bad tonight but IMO it doesn't mean anything. Expect him to continue to have a commanding presence in MSL/GOM/Proleague.
i don't know why everyone is saying the map is the issue. one probe scouting back there and Bisu stops the ling runby, one pylon at the back generator area and bisu stops that hydra allin. the stuff was easily preventable if Bisu prepared like he should have. same with game 2, bisu lost 4-5 reavers and three shuttles unnecessarily, also lost all his sairs. speedshuttles and sairs would've been great to defend against those drops, instead bisu has nothing and the ovies can just load and unload constantly.
i'm not saying hero didn't play well, because he did, and for all we know even if bisu played his best he might have lost, but the reason it seemed so rape was because it was a combination of hero playing great and bisu playing poorly.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote: Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o
Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress.
Wow, I didn't realize that - it's pretty impressive. There's a reasonable (though not strong) chance that Hero actually ends up being the ONLY Zerg to get to RO16 of both leagues! JD will probably do it, but seeing as how he would have to beat two of FBH/Flash/Hwasin, hasn't even officially qualified for OSL RO16, and needs to play two matches to get into OSL, it's no sure thing! Some other Zergs have a chance too.
EDIT: Sorry I was unclear. I meant Hero had a chance to be the only Zerg player to simultaneously qualify for both MSL and OSL rounds of 16.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Letmelose wrote: One thing I like about OGN.
They try new maps.
Instead of baby feeding protosses double-nexus friendly maps with tons of minerals, they made Tears of the Moon which forces protosses to think twice about doing the same old. So you blame zergs for not evolving? Let's see you do any better when the maps are against you. Bisu-build my ass, your triumphs against the zerg were spoon fed.
I'm so stoked a zerg user made it to the final 16.
right, because PvZ was so balanced in the days before forge fe.
Is it the Z's fault that the Protoss weren't smart enough to Forge FE? =D
You can't forge fe on all maps, especially older ones. Encouraging map makers to make maps you can't forge fe on to help PvZ balance is what isn't smart.
He could've built a pylon there to see if he was coming from the backside or not. There are 2 stacked generators (4 total) which is slower than some maps which have 3-4 mineral patches. He should've seen it coming.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote: Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o
Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress.
Wow, I didn't realize that - it's pretty impressive. There's a reasonable (though not strong) chance that Hero actually ends up being the ONLY Zerg to get to RO16 of both leagues! JD will probably do it, but seeing as how he would have to beat two of FBH/Flash/Hwasin, hasn't even officially qualified for OSL RO16, and needs to play two matches to get into OSL, it's no sure thing! Some other Zergs have a chance too.
Ummm.. at least one Zerg is going to go through Group A, since there's 3 Z's in there. I expect Jaedong to get through his group, although it wouldn't be anything new if he got owned by some cheese. Yarnc should have a decent chance as well, but I'm thinking that UpMagiC will advance. He beat much really bad, and his mech is really strong against Z. But I'm hoping that hero is able to overcome it, he seems to be a pretty smart player.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote: Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o
Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress.
Wow, I didn't realize that - it's pretty impressive. There's a reasonable (though not strong) chance that Hero actually ends up being the ONLY Zerg to get to RO16 of both leagues! JD will probably do it, but seeing as how he would have to beat two of FBH/Flash/Hwasin, hasn't even officially qualified for OSL RO16, and needs to play two matches to get into OSL, it's no sure thing! Some other Zergs have a chance too.
1. GGPlay is already seeded into OSL Ro16
2. Luxury, Yarnc, July, and Jaedong, the four best Zergs at the moment (aside from Effort) have yet to play their groups. You have to figure at least one of them makes it through.
3. MSL Ro16 is way too far off to be predicting whether one player is the only one to make it through, the racial distribution of 14/8/8 makes it really unlikely one race gets shut out.
4. MSL Ro32 Group A has three Zergs in it, one of Savior / Zero / Magma will make it.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Letmelose wrote: One thing I like about OGN.
They try new maps.
Instead of baby feeding protosses double-nexus friendly maps with tons of minerals, they made Tears of the Moon which forces protosses to think twice about doing the same old. So you blame zergs for not evolving? Let's see you do any better when the maps are against you. Bisu-build my ass, your triumphs against the zerg were spoon fed.
I'm so stoked a zerg user made it to the final 16.
right, because PvZ was so balanced in the days before forge fe.
Nope, PvsZ was the most imbalanced mu in the days before forge fe?
for fucks sake. I thought He'd get this osl given his present performance. It seems as though Protoss players who dominate are never 'invincible' like savior or iloveoov was.
On January 09 2009 20:49 Hot_Bid wrote: i don't know why everyone is saying the map is the issue. one probe scouting back there and Bisu stops the ling runby, one pylon at the back generator area and bisu stops that hydra allin. the stuff was easily preventable if Bisu prepared like he should have. same with game 2, bisu lost 4-5 reavers and three shuttles unnecessarily, also lost all his sairs. speedshuttles and sairs would've been great to defend against those drops, instead bisu has nothing and the ovies can just load and unload constantly.
i'm not saying hero didn't play well, because he did, and for all we know even if bisu played his best he might have lost, but the reason it seemed so rape was because it was a combination of hero playing great and bisu playing poorly.
Agreed.
Hero really took it to the next level though. Remember game2 against Ruby where he had 4.3k/1.6k in the bank? He really improved his macro big time in that game against Bisu.
edit: the one upside to this as a Bisu fan is that he will probably be MORE careful in his MSL group than he otherwise would've been. Sucks that he won't be in the OSL though.
Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote: Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o
Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress.
Wow, I didn't realize that - it's pretty impressive. There's a reasonable (though not strong) chance that Hero actually ends up being the ONLY Zerg to get to RO16 of both leagues! JD will probably do it, but seeing as how he would have to beat two of FBH/Flash/Hwasin, hasn't even officially qualified for OSL RO16, and needs to play two matches to get into OSL, it's no sure thing! Some other Zergs have a chance too.
1. GGPlay is already seeded into OSL Ro16
2. Luxury, Yarnc, July, and Jaedong, the four best Zergs at the moment (aside from Effort) have yet to play their groups. You have to figure at least one of them makes it through.
3. MSL Ro16 is way too far off to be predicting whether one player is the only one to make it through, the racial distribution of 14/8/8 makes it really unlikely one race gets shut out.
4. MSL Ro32 Group A has three Zergs in it, one of Savior / Zero / Magma will make it.
He's saying he might be the only zerg to reach the ro16 in both leagues at the same time.
The zergs still in both leagues besides by.hero are:
YarnC (who has pretty easy groups in both leagues, wouldn't be surprised to see him in both ro16s) Luxury (Kal and Leta in his MSL group, but he should be able to beat either Hiya or Shuttle in OSL. Wouldn't be surprised however if he's eliminated from one or both) Jaedong (Group of death in MSL, vs Tazza and Light in OSL)
If he does make it even if all of the above 3 do that's some pretty elite company, nothing to scoff at in any case. He also might fall on his face, we'll just have to see.
On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote: Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
Which is quite likely to happen in the MSL because of what Bisu did at the MSL group selection. Hence the celebration and shouts of "karma".
Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote: Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
blue storm is pretty muta friendly?
The instant 2 hatch mutalisk killed terrans. They changed it.
When zergs die to mechanic play, people tell them to improve.
When terrans die to 2 hatch mutalisk by doing the same old 1 barrack expand play, people don't tell terrans to do 1 base play, or use valks to stop it, they just change the map so mutalisk raids become useless.
Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
Meh I was extremely happy when JD was outed by han and casy in OSL, so I guess the reaction of the bisu haters is pretty much predictable and I pretty much dont care about them
On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote: Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
I don't think it's this simple. Nobody plays PvZ like Bisu. Nobody. It's not even close. Lots of players try to play like Bisu, but they never get it right. Most of the dragons have their own PvZ styles, each subtly distinct from each other, but Bisu's is just far different. Kal's is the closest, but Bisu is still far and away different.
It's the same with July, Savior, and Jaedong in ZvT during their respective eras. You cite Savior as someone who changed the ZvT, he did but only in the defiler / hive play part. He never used his mutas the way Jaedong, Yarnc, or Luxury did with their ultra-aggressive two hatch muta builds. Savior rarely if ever killed Terrans with his mutas, he often just kept the mutas alive well into late game to stop drops, harass expansions, etc.
Imo the timeline for PvZ / ZvP strategically goes as follows (pardon me if its not 100% correct, i'm not that sure):
Protoss do one base builds, they are successful on maps with really short rush distances like Requiem. They also succeed on island maps for obvious reasons. But on maps with long distances, easily defendable naturals, or cliffs, Protoss gets owned by lurkers and late game ZvP.
FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
It gets even worse with Savior at the top. Even though no other Zergs are showcasing the type of dominance Savior does, it still feels impossible. Savior takes the map, turtles with lurkers and scourge, and then plows you over late game with ultras. Best case scenario? Allin or elimination race like Nal_rA did on peaks. The true dark ages of PvZ.
Protoss players experiment with FE openings, all involving one or more corsairs, with reaver variants, dark templar variants, timing attacks with goons, etc.
Jaedong comes up with a build on blue storm that exploits the corsair timing, by going 3 hatch spire and doesn't built mutas, but only scourge to stop corsairs while adding more hatches and drones and expos. THEN he switches to mass ground in time for the first Protoss attack, mixing in better, more efficient dark swarm and plague usage than ever before.
Protoss get better at playing versus this, massing critical corsair numbers and using the reaver-FE variant which has become far more popular than the sair-dt opening. the "passive" protoss style of small-scale reaver-sair harass while taking bases and building a huge one-punch army is prevalent among all tosses now. Free, Bisu, and others incorporate more late game reavers into their armies to deal with ultraling better. Zergs respond with more dswarm and plague.
Zerg haven't fully responded, but it seems the next step is burrow hydra / burrow ling (infolings!) and possibly parasite to deal with the harass, into mass hydra (with less lurkers) to allow for more mobility, aggressiveness, and exploitation the delayed storm. Not really sure how this will go yet.
The main difference between older ZvP and modern ZvP is that during the Savior era, Zergs simply played defensive and attempted to last until late game and then they were home free. Bisu gave Protosses a way to very effectively attack a Zerg who is doing this, before Bisu P's had no "safe" option to do this while taking bases.
Jaedong came up with a way to defend even better, but P's are still finding holes with new and improved mini reaver-sair builds and better army mix/timing/control. Thus, I believe that its now shifting the other way, that the Zergs will have to become more aggressive, using drops and risky plays to gain advantage over "standard" protoss FE-->harass-->expand-->army timing.
On January 09 2009 20:42 Shikyo wrote: Hey, I just thought about something! Maybe the 2-1 vs Ruby wasn't a fluke? =o
Yeah really. By.hero is in both leagues now (his MSL group is Much, Upmagic, YarnC) so I'm a bit curious to see how he does as the tournaments progress.
Wow, I didn't realize that - it's pretty impressive. There's a reasonable (though not strong) chance that Hero actually ends up being the ONLY Zerg to get to RO16 of both leagues! JD will probably do it, but seeing as how he would have to beat two of FBH/Flash/Hwasin, hasn't even officially qualified for OSL RO16, and needs to play two matches to get into OSL, it's no sure thing! Some other Zergs have a chance too.
1. GGPlay is already seeded into OSL Ro16
2. Luxury, Yarnc, July, and Jaedong, the four best Zergs at the moment (aside from Effort) have yet to play their groups. You have to figure at least one of them makes it through.
3. MSL Ro16 is way too far off to be predicting whether one player is the only one to make it through, the racial distribution of 14/8/8 makes it really unlikely one race gets shut out.
4. MSL Ro32 Group A has three Zergs in it, one of Savior / Zero / Magma will make it.
He's saying he might be the only zerg to reach the ro16 in both leagues at the same time.
The zergs still in both leagues besides by.hero are:
YarnC (who has pretty easy groups in both leagues, wouldn't be surprised to see him in both ro16s) Luxury (Kal and Leta in his MSL group, but he should be able to beat either Hiya or Shuttle in OSL. Wouldn't be surprised however if he's eliminated from one or both) Jaedong (Group of death in MSL, vs Tazza and Light in OSL)
If he does make it even if all of the above 3 do that's some pretty elite company, nothing to scoff at in any case. He also might fall on his face, we'll just have to see.
Yeah, I was unclear earlier - I meant both RO16's at the same time. Thanks.
That's a huuuuge upset. Who would have thought that one of two best PvZers will get knocked out by some pretty much unknown guy. I need desperately to watch the VODs of that group. But wow, I guess Bisu will have to wait for his OSL title a bit longer.
On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote: Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
I don't think it's this simple. Nobody plays PvZ like Bisu. Nobody. It's not even close. Lots of players try to play like Bisu, but they never get it right. Most of the dragons have their own PvZ styles, each subtly distinct from each other, but Bisu's is just far different. Kal's is the closest, but Bisu is still far and away different.
It's the same with July, Savior, and Jaedong in ZvT during their respective eras. You cite Savior as someone who changed the ZvT, he did but only in the defiler / hive play part. He never used his mutas the way Jaedong, Yarnc, or Luxury did with their ultra-aggressive two hatch muta builds. Savior rarely if ever killed Terrans with his mutas, he often just kept the mutas alive well into late game to stop drops, harass expansions, etc.
Imo the timeline for PvZ / ZvP strategically goes as follows (pardon me if its not 100% correct, i'm not that sure):
Protoss do one base builds, they are successful on maps with really short rush distances like Requiem. They also succeed on island maps for obvious reasons. But on maps with long distances, easily defendable naturals, or cliffs, Protoss gets owned by lurkers and late game ZvP.
FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
It gets even worse with Savior at the top. Even though no other Zergs are showcasing the type of dominance Savior does, it still feels impossible. Savior takes the map, turtles with lurkers and scourge, and then plows you over late game with ultras. Best case scenario? Allin or elimination race like Nal_rA did on peaks. The true dark ages of PvZ.
Protoss players experiment with FE openings, all involving one or more corsairs, with reaver variants, dark templar variants, timing attacks with goons, etc.
Jaedong comes up with a build on blue storm that exploits the corsair timing, by going 3 hatch spire and doesn't built mutas, but only scourge to stop corsairs while adding more hatches and drones and expos. THEN he switches to mass ground in time for the first Protoss attack, mixing in better, more efficient dark swarm and plague usage than ever before.
Protoss get better at playing versus this, massing critical corsair numbers and using the reaver-FE variant which has become far more popular than the sair-dt opening. the "passive" protoss style of small-scale reaver-sair harass while taking bases and building a huge one-punch army is prevalent among all tosses now. Free, Bisu, and others incorporate more late game reavers into their armies to deal with ultraling better. Zergs respond with more dswarm and plague.
Zerg haven't fully responded, but it seems the next step is burrow hydra / burrow ling (infolings!) and possibly parasite to deal with the harass, into mass hydra (with less lurkers) to allow for more mobility, aggressiveness, and exploitation the delayed storm. Not really sure how this will go yet.
The main difference between older ZvP and modern ZvP is that during the Savior era, Zergs simply played defensive and attempted to last until late game and then they were home free. Bisu gave Protosses a way to very effectively attack a Zerg who is doing this, before Bisu P's had no "safe" option to do this while taking bases.
Jaedong came up with a way to defend even better, but P's are still finding holes with new and improved mini reaver-sair builds and better army mix/timing/control. Thus, I believe that its now shifting the other way, that the Zergs will have to become more aggressive, using drops and risky plays to gain advantage over "standard" protoss FE-->harass-->expand-->army timing.
I actually believe PvZ is pretty much balanced at this point. I just don't like the fact that map makers pay so much attention to keep the protoss players happy whilst taking no notice of the fact that ZvT is becoming more and more difficult for the zerg despite all the evolution in zerg play (which I personally think is bigger than protoss evolution). It actually doesn't matter whether Bisu stands alone at the top because protoss players now have no difficulty overcoming zergs. Maps like Raid Assault and Rush Hour have given way to protoss friendly maps like Katrina and Colosseum. Can Bisu strut his unique PvZ on maps like RH3? I think protoss have done well to evolve, but maps have played a large part in the recent protoss domination.
Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005. Nal Ra's FE did more to the protoss than you give him credit for. Everyone remembers how Savior toyed with the protoss in 2006, but seem to forget that most protosses had much less difficulty defeating zergs in general. People complained so much about Savior, they forgot about the other zergs who were having a real hard time against protoss in maps like Longinus. Even Savior played very cunningly on these maps in order to win.
In an age where TvP and PvZ has become pretty much balanced, it's a real shame that ZvT has become such a bitch to win.
Aw man, I knew the age of Bisu doing well in starleagues and proleague was too good to be true. Oh well, if he tears up GOM I'll be more than happy. And then he'll win the OSL after this one. >_>
On January 09 2009 21:00 Letmelose wrote: Ok maybe this is the wrong thread to post this on, but here it goes anyway.
One of my biggest gripes when it comes to the issue of balance is consistency.
When zergs finally stood up to terrans with the art of 3 hatch play, mutalisk control, defiler and nydus canal usage. It shocked the terrans all over. In fact, I believe this zerg revolution led by Savior is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) changes made to a match up in progaming history. The thing is, the better zergs got at mutalisk harass, the more difficult the maps got to use this new skill in. In fact, the zerg revolution was butt raped by the map makers who basically cancelled out the improvements made by the zerg players by making gay maps.
Protoss was struggling against zergs too, but when Bisu changed the match-ups, the map makers made it even more double-nexus friendly, gave even more minerals, made it easy for protoss to gain their 3rd gas.
How come when zergs improve, it needs to be cancelled out, but when protoss gain ground in PvZ, the map makers make it all the more easier?
Bisu and the so called six dragons are really benefitting from this "protoss friendly era", though it is true that they are very talented players. I'm just real tired of map makers making the same old maps that make PvZ easy with three easy steps while telling zerg players to use friggin' queens or die against terrans.
I don't think it's this simple. Nobody plays PvZ like Bisu. Nobody. It's not even close. Lots of players try to play like Bisu, but they never get it right. Most of the dragons have their own PvZ styles, each subtly distinct from each other, but Bisu's is just far different. Kal's is the closest, but Bisu is still far and away different.
It's the same with July, Savior, and Jaedong in ZvT during their respective eras. You cite Savior as someone who changed the ZvT, he did but only in the defiler / hive play part. He never used his mutas the way Jaedong, Yarnc, or Luxury did with their ultra-aggressive two hatch muta builds. Savior rarely if ever killed Terrans with his mutas, he often just kept the mutas alive well into late game to stop drops, harass expansions, etc.
Imo the timeline for PvZ / ZvP strategically goes as follows (pardon me if its not 100% correct, i'm not that sure):
Protoss do one base builds, they are successful on maps with really short rush distances like Requiem. They also succeed on island maps for obvious reasons. But on maps with long distances, easily defendable naturals, or cliffs, Protoss gets owned by lurkers and late game ZvP.
FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
It gets even worse with Savior at the top. Even though no other Zergs are showcasing the type of dominance Savior does, it still feels impossible. Savior takes the map, turtles with lurkers and scourge, and then plows you over late game with ultras. Best case scenario? Allin or elimination race like Nal_rA did on peaks. The true dark ages of PvZ.
Protoss players experiment with FE openings, all involving one or more corsairs, with reaver variants, dark templar variants, timing attacks with goons, etc.
Jaedong comes up with a build on blue storm that exploits the corsair timing, by going 3 hatch spire and doesn't built mutas, but only scourge to stop corsairs while adding more hatches and drones and expos. THEN he switches to mass ground in time for the first Protoss attack, mixing in better, more efficient dark swarm and plague usage than ever before.
Protoss get better at playing versus this, massing critical corsair numbers and using the reaver-FE variant which has become far more popular than the sair-dt opening. the "passive" protoss style of small-scale reaver-sair harass while taking bases and building a huge one-punch army is prevalent among all tosses now. Free, Bisu, and others incorporate more late game reavers into their armies to deal with ultraling better. Zergs respond with more dswarm and plague.
Zerg haven't fully responded, but it seems the next step is burrow hydra / burrow ling (infolings!) and possibly parasite to deal with the harass, into mass hydra (with less lurkers) to allow for more mobility, aggressiveness, and exploitation the delayed storm. Not really sure how this will go yet.
The main difference between older ZvP and modern ZvP is that during the Savior era, Zergs simply played defensive and attempted to last until late game and then they were home free. Bisu gave Protosses a way to very effectively attack a Zerg who is doing this, before Bisu P's had no "safe" option to do this while taking bases.
Jaedong came up with a way to defend even better, but P's are still finding holes with new and improved mini reaver-sair builds and better army mix/timing/control. Thus, I believe that its now shifting the other way, that the Zergs will have to become more aggressive, using drops and risky plays to gain advantage over "standard" protoss FE-->harass-->expand-->army timing.
I actually believe PvZ is pretty much balanced at this point. I just don't like the fact that map makers pay so much attention to keep the protoss players happy whilst taking no notice of the fact that ZvT is becoming more and more difficult for the zerg despite all the evolution in zerg play (which I personally think is bigger than protoss evolution). It actually doesn't matter whether Bisu stands alone at the top because protoss players now have no difficulty overcoming zergs. Maps like Raid Assault and Rush Hour have given way to protoss friendly maps like Katrina and Colosseum. Can Bisu strut his unique PvZ on maps like RH3? I think protoss have done well to evolve, but maps have played a large part in the recent protoss domination.
Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005. Nal Ra's FE did more to the protoss than you give him credit for. Everyone remembers how Savior toyed with the protoss in 2006, but seem to forget that most protosses had much less difficulty defeating zergs in general. People complained so much about Savior, they forgot about the other zergs who were having a real hard time against protoss in maps like Longinus. Even Savior played very cunningly on these maps in order to win.
In an age where TvP and PvZ has become pretty much balanced, it's a real shame that ZvT has become such a bitch to win.
Oh, man. Who complained about Savior. Sry for offtop. I'm new here. So i just want to to know. What ppl thought about Savior at that time. MB i will give me URL for threads or explain me what is what ? Did korean ppl complained about MJY ? Thx for attention
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
Lol. Whoever celebrates because someone like Bisu gets knocked out at row 32 is dumb. The OSL just lost one of its best players. It's like losing flash or jaedong at row 32... simply sucks.
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
From TLPD, this seasons proleague.
TvZ: 63-46 (57.8%) [ Games ] ZvP: 60-46 (56.6%) [ Games ] PvT: 53-47 (53%) [ Games ]
I knew I had good reason for a bad feeling about this group. Man, this will be my first time as a fan of pro starcraft without Bisu in a league. Got into it after his first MSL win.
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
Last 80 tvz's: terran 56 wins, zerg 24 wins.
This is arguably why jaedong is the best starcraft player ever.
But yea tvz is easily the most imba matchup now and historically.
On January 09 2009 23:36 sh02hp0869 wrote: My think that Bisu might be overworked? Not saying Hero playing bad but Protoss have been having some problem v Z in the last mouth.
The number of games since the beginning of December. Of these, I think Leta handles the overworking the best, but might crumble just like Flash did.
Bisu
17
Flash
20
Leta
20
You're kind of right but good players play a lot... Hmm.
EDIT:
+ 09-01-09 Batoo 2008 OSL (Twilight) Return of the King (T)RuBy Win + 09-01-09 Batoo 2008 OSL (Twilight) Medusa (T)RuBy Win + 09-01-09 Batoo 2008 OSL (Twilight) Tears of the Moon (Z)RuBy Loss
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
Last 80 tvz's: terran 56 wins, zerg 24 wins.
This is arguably why jaedong is the best starcraft player ever.
But yea tvz is easily the most imba matchup now and historically.
A lot of those Zerg losses came from Andromeda which severly favors Terran TvZ, look at Medusa's TvZ record. It can go both ways, it's not Zerg having a non map dependent advantage it's the maps favoring them. Race's being favored on maps changes like clockwork, soon enough there will be maps that favor Z over P.
You also need to count in that Zerg's are playing terribly overall, it's not all race imbalance/map imbalance. It's Zerg's not adapting to different styles, going all-in every game with some 2 hatch build will only work 50% of the time.
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
Last 80 tvz's: terran 56 wins, zerg 24 wins.
This is arguably why jaedong is the best starcraft player ever.
But yea tvz is easily the most imba matchup now and historically.
A lot of those Zerg losses came from Andromeda which severly favors Terran TvZ, look at Medusa's TvZ record. It can go both ways, it's not Zerg having a non map dependent advantage it's the maps favoring them. Race's being favored on maps changes like clockwork, soon enough there will be maps that favor Z over P.
You also need to count in that Zerg's are playing terribly overall, it's not all race imbalance/map imbalance. It's Zerg's not adapting to different styles, going all-in every game with some 2 hatch build will only work 50% of the time.
Zergs has actually not played that bad v P im pretty sure about that. And if you actually watch games by the lesser know Z like Shine, Zero, Saint, type-b, great are actually really good players. T have only slighty better topp 30 I would say. And even if it is true that Z are playing terrible 56 - 24 is way to high to make that of a diffrent. More so if you look at the top T almost everone have there best MU against Z. Z are not playing bad against Protoss thats for sure. It might only by temporary we just have to wait and see.
BIsu overworked? lol? Everyone has proleague to worry about. When you are in 2 or more semi-finals at the same time versus multiple matchups, then that argument is valid. Bisu lost, so has Stork, Jangbi, Free and Kal in the recent weeks. Get over it.
Protoss do one base builds, they are successful on maps with really short rush distances like Requiem. They also succeed on island maps for obvious reasons. But on maps with long distances, easily defendable naturals, or cliffs, Protoss gets owned by lurkers and late game ZvP.
yup
FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
half true; maps like guillotine and forte allowed FE play and was preferred on those maps- it was a situational build not an everything build
It gets even worse with Savior at the top. Even though no other Zergs are showcasing the type of dominance Savior does, it still feels impossible. Savior takes the map, turtles with lurkers and scourge, and then plows you over late game with ultras. Best case scenario? Allin or elimination race like Nal_rA did on peaks. The true dark ages of PvZ.
Half true; Dark ages for Protoss came before savior with the era of July/Gorush. With the savior era you begin to see a number of new protoss player flourish. Only other decent zvp'er at this time was silver (lol?)
Bisu did not introduce FE play. FE play was commonplace well before Bisu played savior (e.g Anytime vs GGplay/Gorush from Shinhan 2 OSL). A number of variations for the FE existed; 5gate +1 speedlot attack (Most Protoss e.g. Bisu in 06), Corsair/Zealot (Anytime), Reaver/Sair (on maps with easy third gases) and the Corsair/DT build (later popularized by Bisu). Protoss winrate vs Zerg starts to climb towards the end of 2006 with Protoss like Daezang showing real flair in PvZ (pioneered "bisu build" on Blitz). Bisu rapes savior, Protoss realize how good corsairs are and all variations of FE open with Stargate from here on (bar the occasional deviation).
Protoss players experiment with FE openings, all involving one or more corsairs, with reaver variants, dark templar variants, timing attacks with goons, etc.
Partially true; they had already experimented a great deal with these openings (particular dragoon timing attacks). The most notable build to evolve during this time is the Sair/Reaver opening into standard ground play (previously sair/reaver usually meant it dominated early/mid game play, now it was just early). Protoss still very much followed the traditional bisu through this time.
Jaedong comes up with a build on blue storm that exploits the corsair timing, by going 3 hatch spire and doesn't built mutas, but only scourge to stop corsairs while adding more hatches and drones and expos. THEN he switches to mass ground in time for the first Protoss attack, mixing in better, more efficient dark swarm and plague usage than ever before.
Partly true, 815 the master of Blue Storm found the timings to exploit Protoss on this map. Jaedong used this one on Blue Storm only. Jaedong dropped this style after this game and focused on the popular 4hatch-hydra-lair variation and won the MSL with this style. Zerg still generally struggle to deal with Protoss macro.
Protoss get better at playing versus this, massing critical corsair numbers and using the reaver-FE variant which has become far more popular than the sair-dt opening. the "passive" protoss style of small-scale reaver-sair harass while taking bases and building a huge one-punch army is prevalent among all tosses now. Free, Bisu, and others incorporate more late game reavers into their armies to deal with ultraling better. Zergs respond with more dswarm and plague.
July rapes Best on Andromeda using the spire before hydraden build using scourge to snipe corsairs. This style of play becomes widely adopted on Andromeda and is quickly developed on other maps as well (becomes dominate Zerg style). Reavers has also grown in popularity from Nal_ra vs Savior on Peaks and were largely accepted as the late game weapon of choice of DA (see a number of Tau Cross games). Swarm plague came more in the Jaedong style between January-May 2008
Zerg haven't fully responded, but it seems the next step is burrow hydra / burrow ling (infolings!) and possibly parasite to deal with the harass, into mass hydra (with less lurkers) to allow for more mobility, aggressiveness, and exploitation the delayed storm. Not really sure how this will go yet.
Again, not quite true. Recent trends amongst protoss have favored the 4gate 2archon variation which gives a very strong pressure attack, but also includes 1 corsair for scouting purposes. Zerg have almost solved this as indicated by the rising winrate (notably on Destination) using a 3hatch -> lair -> spire -> hydraden build (similar to the one Jaedong/815 was using a long time ago). Zerg also begin to take expansions more freely to rival the protoss economy (previously Corsair/DT play prevented taking the 4th base due to geographical distance and overlord speed). Zerg also lessen emphasis on Hive tech units (defiler-lurker-ling combination of Jaedong) and begin to focus more on Lair tech and the "Neo-Sauron Zerg" style. Thus far the Neo Sauron has just about leveled the ZvP winrate.
On January 09 2009 09:15 Frits wrote: Can't wait to return from exams tomorrow to find out that hero owned the shit out of ruby and bisu. Oh man that would make my day. Go hero.
On January 10 2009 01:44 TarsTarkas wrote: So did hero play amazingly well, or did Bisu not care? what happened here?
Obviously Bisu cared. How could he not care about OSL expecially given that he never won one? I am also waiting for vods but from reading LR it seems like Bisu got outplayed (and he played rather poorly).
Wow, how did this fucking happen? rofl. I skipped watching this ONE group, because I assumed Bisu would just roll it, and then this?! haha. *goes and gets the vods*
Well it was fun while it last it ... No wonder all of you are so shoked that Bisu lost . When you overhype someone you never see it coming . I an the other hand knew better .... STX is where the ZvP's true mastery on both side is with July and Kal and its not Bisu and Jaedong always thought that it's there and always will . Not to surprised with the results given by.hero is from STX i am a little surpsised that he beat Ruby thought , but i don't think to highly of Ruby enyways . I'm happy that an other zerg made it to the OSL and with this i can say that protoss dominance at least upon zerg is over .
That doesn't change the fact that Bisu is still a favourite in his MSL group . I would be happy to see Savior beat him , but i don't think that will happen . Zero has the best chance of winning againts him and i don't know about Magma thought haven't seen to much of his games .
If this was the GOMTV-Intel classic and Bisu lost to Hero, there would already be 5 guys in here screaming: "Lol, noone is taking GOM seriously, he obviously didn't even train for it."
This happens in a game where someone with a 67% win-ratio is considered a god.
They are paying him. That's it. MBCgame are paying Bisu to always fail out of OSL and keep his fans watching MSL instead. Ok, now to watch to the VODs and figure out what really happened.
On January 10 2009 02:43 raga4ka wrote: Well it was fun while it last it ... No wonder all of you are so shoked that Bisu lost . When you overhype someone you never see it coming . I an the other hand knew better .... STX is where the ZvP's true mastery on both side is with July and Kal and its not Bisu and Jaedong always thought that it's there and always will . Not to surprised with the results given by.hero is from STX i am a little surpsised that he beat Ruby thought , but i don't think to highly of Ruby enyways . I'm happy that an other zerg made it to the OSL and with this i can say that protoss dominance at least upon zerg is over .
That doesn't change the fact that Bisu is still a favourite in his MSL group . I would be happy to see Savior beat him , but i don't think that will happen . Zero has the best chance of winning againts him and i don't know about Magma thought haven't seen to much of his games .
take a time and read the first page. many of us were worried about bisu's fall. the group stages of every tournament is where this guy could be outed, he underperforms every time in the first few games of every competition
On January 09 2009 19:55 Hot_Bid wrote: there has to be a reason why all Ts aren't going mech, its not fool proof that its better than bio, look at hyuk rampaging through mech in his group. mbc though seems to be avoiding it, sea and light don't mech often thus ruby doesn't.
Light actually has done mech quite a bit. As opposed to sea and ruby who havent done it at all.
And Forgg used mech too I recall, seems more his style as sometimes he just doesnt plain feel like microing. I dont know about a skill cap or anything like that using mech, but Id have to agree with hotbid in that its not foolproof confident in their standard play have no reason to do it unless the map calls for it or they wanna throw their opponent off.
On January 09 2009 21:23 Hot_Bid wrote: [*]FEs begin to be used (started by Nal_rA) but are never really effective, as they give the Z way too much map control and the timing attack (most often +1 speedzeal) is easily dealt with by Zerg lair tech.
FE pvz is older than ra. I recall watching a replay of a pvz between grrrr... and sven in which grrrr... opened with fe -> +1speedzeal shortly after 1.08 came out. So fe pvz precedes ra by a year at the very least.
I also seem to remember arang feing a lot in the same time period.
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
Last 80 tvz's: terran 56 wins, zerg 24 wins.
This is arguably why jaedong is the best starcraft player ever.
But yea tvz is easily the most imba matchup now and historically.
When jaedong win 3 msls in a row and then wins the osl 3 times he can be considered the best starcraft player ever
I honestly see this as the inevitability of protoss getting so fucking dominant. You simply cant have a player like iloveoov dominating zergs for so long without breeding July, GoRush, etc. You cant have a player like sAviOr dominating protoss without breeding a Bisu, and you certainly cant have Protoss dominating every top zerg without seeing a massive widespread increase in Zerg skills.
I mean as a zerg player, watching the increase in ability in all aspects (hydra control, timing, ratio of hydra to lurker, ability to scourge shuttles, deal with harassment, etc, etc) has been shocking, and now I think we are gonna see a real scary time for Protoss coming up where they are reaping what they have sown, so to speak, starting with the phenomenal control that by.hero showed in these games.
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
Last 80 tvz's: terran 56 wins, zerg 24 wins.
This is arguably why jaedong is the best starcraft player ever.
But yea tvz is easily the most imba matchup now and historically.
When jaedong win 3 msls in a row and then wins the osl 3 times he can be considered the best starcraft player ever
On January 09 2009 22:14 Letmelose wrote: Zergs didn't crush protoss like everyone seems to think pre-Bisu era. In fact, ZvT has consistently been the most unbalanced match-up in progaming since 2005.
ZvT is actually pretty close to 50/50 if you look at the statistics for ZvT on recent maps.
this is just flatly not true, T>Z has been pretty prevalent over the past year or so
Interview of JulyZerg and the Kaarrrrmmaaaaa Zerg By.Hero
- You seem to have absorbed alot of JulyZerg's style ▲ JulyZerg hyung sits next to me at practice. Before I came to the stadium he told me "If I were you, I would all in against Bisu on the first match." I was going to plan an all in build if Bisu was going double nexus and thankfully he did go a double nex therefore I won the game easily. Also, whenever I practiced, I asked for JulyZerg Hyung's help many times and he told me what would be better at this situation and etc.
WHATS THIS? JULYZERG HAS GOT HIMSELF AN APPRENTICE?
- We heard you helped by.Hero win 2:0 against Bisu .▲ Hero sits next to me and I told him "If I were you, I would All-In game 1." Then I told him after game 1, go to a macro management game on Set 2. If you play out the games like this even though Bisu will use the same build as before it will feel different (I guess he is saying Hero will earn much more confidence). Bisu is still a progamer (saying Bisu is still a human being) so this will work regardless of the situation. Even if set 3 was played, Hero would've won.
What we've learned - Seems like Hero wants to be under the wings of SumoZerg - Even if JulyZerg dies out, we will have someone who can carry the fat torch - Fuck yeah JulyZerg. So badass
On January 10 2009 19:12 MrHoon wrote: Interview of JulyZerg and the Kaarrrrmmaaaaa Zerg By.Hero
- You seem to have absorbed alot of JulyZerg's style ▲ JulyZerg hyung sits next to me at practice. Before I came to the stadium he told me "If I were you, I would all in against Bisu on the first match." I was going to plan an all in build if Bisu was going double nexus and thankfully he did go a double nex therefore I won the game easily. Also, whenever I practiced, I asked for JulyZerg Hyung's help many times and he told me what would be better at this situation and etc.
WHATS THIS? JULYZERG HAS GOT HIMSELF AN APPRENTICE?
- We heard you helped by.Hero win 2:0 against Bisu .▲ Hero sits next to me and I told him "If I were you, I would All-In game 1." Then I told him after game 1, go to a macro management game on Set 2. If you play out the games like this even though Bisu will use the same build as before it will feel different (I guess he is saying Hero will earn much more confidence). Bisu is still a progamer (saying Bisu is still a human being) so this will work regardless of the situation. Even if set 3 was played, Hero would've won.
What we've learned - Seems like Hero wants to be under the wings of SumoZerg - Even if JulyZerg dies out, we will have someone who can carry the fat torch - Fuck yeah JulyZerg. So badass
On January 10 2009 19:12 MrHoon wrote: Interview of JulyZerg and the Kaarrrrmmaaaaa Zerg By.Hero
- You seem to have absorbed alot of JulyZerg's style ▲ JulyZerg hyung sits next to me at practice. Before I came to the stadium he told me "If I were you, I would all in against Bisu on the first match." I was going to plan an all in build if Bisu was going double nexus and thankfully he did go a double nex therefore I won the game easily. Also, whenever I practiced, I asked for JulyZerg Hyung's help many times and he told me what would be better at this situation and etc.
WHATS THIS? JULYZERG HAS GOT HIMSELF AN APPRENTICE?
- We heard you helped by.Hero win 2:0 against Bisu .▲ Hero sits next to me and I told him "If I were you, I would All-In game 1." Then I told him after game 1, go to a macro management game on Set 2. If you play out the games like this even though Bisu will use the same build as before it will feel different (I guess he is saying Hero will earn much more confidence). Bisu is still a progamer (saying Bisu is still a human being) so this will work regardless of the situation. Even if set 3 was played, Hero would've won.
What we've learned - Seems like Hero wants to be under the wings of SumoZerg - Even if JulyZerg dies out, we will have someone who can carry the fat torch - Fuck yeah JulyZerg. So badass
On January 10 2009 19:12 MrHoon wrote: Interview of JulyZerg and the Kaarrrrmmaaaaa Zerg By.Hero
- You seem to have absorbed alot of JulyZerg's style ▲ JulyZerg hyung sits next to me at practice. Before I came to the stadium he told me "If I were you, I would all in against Bisu on the first match." I was going to plan an all in build if Bisu was going double nexus and thankfully he did go a double nex therefore I won the game easily. Also, whenever I practiced, I asked for JulyZerg Hyung's help many times and he told me what would be better at this situation and etc.
WHATS THIS? JULYZERG HAS GOT HIMSELF AN APPRENTICE?
- We heard you helped by.Hero win 2:0 against Bisu .▲ Hero sits next to me and I told him "If I were you, I would All-In game 1." Then I told him after game 1, go to a macro management game on Set 2. If you play out the games like this even though Bisu will use the same build as before it will feel different (I guess he is saying Hero will earn much more confidence). Bisu is still a progamer (saying Bisu is still a human being) so this will work regardless of the situation. Even if set 3 was played, Hero would've won.
What we've learned - Seems like Hero wants to be under the wings of SumoZerg - Even if JulyZerg dies out, we will have someone who can carry the fat torch - Fuck yeah JulyZerg. So badass
Is this the whole interview ?
ofcourse not, but I got lazy lol.
Can someone please translate it . I'm very curious of what July and by.hero has to say , because July is my favourite pro by far
On January 10 2009 19:12 MrHoon wrote: Interview of JulyZerg and the Kaarrrrmmaaaaa Zerg By.Hero
- You seem to have absorbed alot of JulyZerg's style ▲ JulyZerg hyung sits next to me at practice. Before I came to the stadium he told me "If I were you, I would all in against Bisu on the first match." I was going to plan an all in build if Bisu was going double nexus and thankfully he did go a double nex therefore I won the game easily. Also, whenever I practiced, I asked for JulyZerg Hyung's help many times and he told me what would be better at this situation and etc.
WHATS THIS? JULYZERG HAS GOT HIMSELF AN APPRENTICE?
- We heard you helped by.Hero win 2:0 against Bisu .▲ Hero sits next to me and I told him "If I were you, I would All-In game 1." Then I told him after game 1, go to a macro management game on Set 2. If you play out the games like this even though Bisu will use the same build as before it will feel different (I guess he is saying Hero will earn much more confidence). Bisu is still a progamer (saying Bisu is still a human being) so this will work regardless of the situation. Even if set 3 was played, Hero would've won.
What we've learned - Seems like Hero wants to be under the wings of SumoZerg - Even if JulyZerg dies out, we will have someone who can carry the fat torch - Fuck yeah JulyZerg. So badass
Is this the whole interview ?
ofcourse not, but I got lazy lol.
Can someone please translate it . I'm very curious of what July and by.hero has to say , because July is my favourite pro by far
On January 10 2009 19:12 MrHoon wrote: Interview of JulyZerg and the Kaarrrrmmaaaaa Zerg By.Hero
- You seem to have absorbed alot of JulyZerg's style ▲ JulyZerg hyung sits next to me at practice. Before I came to the stadium he told me "If I were you, I would all in against Bisu on the first match." I was going to plan an all in build if Bisu was going double nexus and thankfully he did go a double nex therefore I won the game easily. Also, whenever I practiced, I asked for JulyZerg Hyung's help many times and he told me what would be better at this situation and etc.
WHATS THIS? JULYZERG HAS GOT HIMSELF AN APPRENTICE?
- We heard you helped by.Hero win 2:0 against Bisu .▲ Hero sits next to me and I told him "If I were you, I would All-In game 1." Then I told him after game 1, go to a macro management game on Set 2. If you play out the games like this even though Bisu will use the same build as before it will feel different (I guess he is saying Hero will earn much more confidence). Bisu is still a progamer (saying Bisu is still a human being) so this will work regardless of the situation. Even if set 3 was played, Hero would've won.
What we've learned - Seems like Hero wants to be under the wings of SumoZerg - Even if JulyZerg dies out, we will have someone who can carry the fat torch - Fuck yeah JulyZerg. So badass
Is this the whole interview ?
ofcourse not, but I got lazy lol.
Can someone please translate it . I'm very curious of what July and by.hero has to say , because July is my favourite pro by far
thats all they said about each other
Well i still am curious of what they asked July and by.hero after he killed Bisu . So i would be grateful if someone translates the whole thing .
Lol, I just realized that when Bisu beat Hero earlier last year in PL, I said hero had a lot of potential from his performance, and people said no way. What now?