On November 17 2008 12:54 Enrique wrote: Ordinarily, this would be a matchup I wouldn't care about at all, but with OOV there, I'm absolutely going to be watching!
oov must have a build planned. I don't see any other reason why he would be playing on Raid Assault, and also so soon after coming out of retirement. s2 is going to get completely destroyed by GGPlay
Bisu - Free should be great if it's nearly as exciting as their MSL series. Of course the grudge match factor is awesome.
And BeSt will obviously walk all over this poor unfortunate Terran.
Oov must be upset enough with all the Terrans in SKT executing his invented mech to show up this time on ZvsZ map. Look forward to watching his planned build. it should be 3-0
On November 17 2008 13:05 economist_ wrote: Oov must be upset enough with all the Terrans in SKT executing his invented mech to show up this time on ZvsZ map. Look forward to watching his planned build. it should be 3-0
Is there any reason to think it's anything other than some quick rush like 2 racks? He'll probably last 3 minutes if he tries the "Fantasy" build on raid assualt.
Looking forward to seeing how well Oov's micro is considering his injury issues.
On November 17 2008 13:44 omfghi2u2 wrote: doesnt oov's wrist hut too much or something?
I thought his wrist got damaged like a year bofore retirement, and he retired simply because his wrist injury kept him from fully performing comfortably?
On November 17 2008 12:56 TarsTarkas wrote: This better be 3-0 SKT
lol, this just occurred to me:
New T1 strategy is to play their Zerg in the fourth set and win 3-0. Why didn't they think of this before?
It's because they want to put a zerg on Raid-Assault, since that map is zerg-favoured =/.
Check the map order.
I think oov himself wanted to play on RA because its a map he knows well and there was 100% chance of a z coming from stars, so he just had to prepare tvz.
On November 17 2008 14:59 Nitan wrote: Bisu vs. Free again eh? I thought it was Best vs. Free. Oh well.
It should be good though, no?
I'm really curious if Free manages to take this one or Bisu proves yet again that he is on top of his game recently. But I have to say that Free had a ridiculously tight schedule recently... MSL semi-final, Gom TV ro32 and now this game.
On November 17 2008 12:56 TarsTarkas wrote: This better be 3-0 SKT
lol, this just occurred to me:
New T1 strategy is to play their Zerg in the fourth set and win 3-0. Why didn't they think of this before?
It's because they want to put a zerg on Raid-Assault, since that map is zerg-favoured =/.
Check the map order.
I think oov himself wanted to play on RA because its a map he knows well and there was 100% chance of a z coming from stars, so he just had to prepare tvz.
In light of all the ZvZs and TvZs there have been no TvTs on Raid Assault. Odd.
We are probably mis-communicating, the reason T1 didn't try for a blitz 3-0 strategy because zerg is favourable on the third map and thus, they put their zerg there. I mean this case is different because oov is back and he is comfortable on the map, but thats (im guessing) why SKT1 didn't think of the 3-0 strat before.
We are probably mis-communicating, the reason T1 didn't try for a blitz 3-0 strategy because zerg is favourable on the third map and thus, they put their zerg there. I mean this case is different because oov is back and he is comfortable on the map, but thats (im guessing) why SKT1 didn't think of the 3-0 strat before.
Raid Assault isn't the third map in every PL match...far from it. In fact, this may be the only match T1 has played so far with Raid Assault as the third map. I think you are assuming that every PL match has the same map order? Not so.
Anyway, this discussion is silly because my original suggestion wasn't really serious.
SKT should have this although I can see it going to Ace with Free and GGplay winning. But either Bisu or Best should be able to win against any player Stars send. I hope oov wins just for some good old lols.
Bisu's stuff really out of position... he barely loses, but reinforcements from Free start to steamroll him. Free picks off Bisu's shuttle before the reaver pops. Zealot takes out Bisu's reaver in his mineral line.
Bisu still not dead? I'm really confused how that happened.
Bisu was so reckless... when free's scout got that kill... then those two lost goons... I was thinking bisu doesn't think very highly of free even after their previous encounter.
yeah TItty sambo is so annoying but somehow i just doesnt feel right when i dont hear the crazy titty sambo on the breaks :D doesnt proleague has titty sambo? :~(
On November 17 2008 19:06 foldy wrote: yeah TItty sambo is so annoying but somehow i just doesnt feel right when i dont hear the crazy titty sambo on the breaks :D doesnt proleague has titty sambo? :~(
dude... is it just me or is piano's clicking some of the quickest most precise you've seen? best looked sluggish by comparison. i could be way off here since i haven't seen a ton of examples
On November 17 2008 19:09 nihil2501 wrote: dude... is it just me or is piano's clicking some of the quickest most precise you've seen? best looked sluggish by comparison. i could be way off here since i haven't seen a ton of examples
IMO NaDa/Light/Xellos are faster and more accurate.
On November 17 2008 19:28 vAltyR wrote: I think best threw away his arbiters for the supply.. because seriously, it doesn' tlook like the loss hurt him that much
Not much can hurt you when you are up 2 expos for quite some time..
Very impressed by BeSt monster macro, but Piano put up a great fight, those emps on arbiters were pretty heart breaking lol, but who needs them when you have 10000000 zealots.
On November 17 2008 19:29 nihil2501 wrote: what do the stars at the end of the game mean?
It means how good the player is. Players gain stars by beating players and lose stars by losing to players? Not too sure but surely it goes something around those lines.
On November 17 2008 19:29 nihil2501 wrote: what do the stars at the end of the game mean?
I think they got stars when they do specials things like pimp plays or epic come back or maybe just by beating players with better kespa ranks... it is just a supposition
On November 17 2008 19:33 nihil2501 wrote: is coliseum P>T in late game due all resources being on the periphery of the map?
I don't think so... if the Terran lets that happen, then yeah, it starts to favor Protoss a lot. But a successful push onto the Protoss's main tends to make both the expos there useless pretty quickly.
Edit: Oh. Late game... it really depends on what happened midgame I think. I think its harder for the Terran to take and protect expos, but if they manage to get good positioning it isn't so bad.
Piano showed some promising play. His control was quite impressive. The problem, of course, is that he just can't macro nearly as well as Best. And in the end, Best just had a lot more units to throw away.
On November 17 2008 19:45 Plutonium wrote: I think the storms only got off because he didn't have the detection from the vessels up, so the HT's got in close under cover of the arbiters.
EMP on the HTs would have been nice. No, I think it's because the tanks were too clumped together and Piano was too eager in his push.
Hydras are out for zerg, the commentators keep talking about lurkers, oov has about 10-12 goliaths pushing out to his natural with two valkyries. Oov expanding.
On November 17 2008 20:06 soudo wrote: I thought the key thing that made the "fantasy mech build" viable was successful early vulture harass. Did not see any of that.
did you not notice that oov's build was entirely different
Raid Assault is a 1 base 2 hatch muta map. You can't even do the fantasy build against a 2 base 2 hatch muta build becuase then mutas will be out while you made 4 vultures, mines, a CC and a dropship.
Upon watching that again, Oov's army was completely arranged the wrong way to deal with the attack. The mutas hit the tanks up top, the hydras hit the golies, and the Valks got cloned so fast.
Looking at the replay though, that was a very nice flank, tank splash was minimized with them hitting the highground, and the lower golis couldn't take the other ground units & mutas.
On November 17 2008 20:06 soudo wrote: I thought the key thing that made the "fantasy mech build" viable was successful early vulture harass. Did not see any of that.
did you not notice that oov's build was entirely different
Wasn't it because zero went for super fast mutas ? After oov scouted he had to adapt to it and massed goliaths.
regardless of the army formation, did you see the spot in the map he camped at? it was at the intersection of three large pathways and zero had large forces come from each.
I've never seen so much macro on raid assault. And Oov... that strategy had to fail because there was no harrassment. How could he expect zerg to NOT just expand everywhere if he doesn't even have dropships?
On November 17 2008 20:08 Plutonium wrote: Upon watching that again, Oov's army was completely arranged the wrong way to deal with the attack. The mutas hit the tanks up top, the hydras hit the golies, and the Valks got cloned so fast.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Bifur wrote: Tanks of oov were killed by muta, because his goliaths were misplaced. And then his goliaths were killed by hydra, because he lost his tanks.
Did you see the scourges killing the valks? Mutas shouldn't do so much damage when he had goli+valk, but they did. Enough scourge > Valk, that's ZvP wisdom at work here
even if his army were not positioned for anti-hydra he'd have gotten raped still. either hydra sweeps up or muta
On November 17 2008 20:06 soudo wrote: I thought the key thing that made the "fantasy mech build" viable was successful early vulture harass. Did not see any of that.
did you not notice that oov's build was entirely different
It was totally different but I think that a few vultures running around the map could have sniped a few of those undefended drones / hatches to slow down the expansion rate.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Plutonium wrote: Upon watching that again, Oov's army was completely arranged the wrong way to deal with the attack. The mutas hit the tanks up top, the hydras hit the golies, and the Valks got cloned so fast.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Bifur wrote: Tanks of oov were killed by muta, because his goliaths were misplaced. And then his goliaths were killed by hydra, because he lost his tanks.
Did you see the scourges killing the valks?
Mutas shouldn't do so much damage but they did.
Scourge > Valk, that's ZvP wisdom at work here
even if his army were not positioned for anti-hydra he'd have gotten raped
Oov would have done great if he only had the tanks and golies together. The Tanks would have gibbed the hydras, the golies could have focus-fired the scourge while he ran the valks, and then once the scourge are gone, the valks come back and destroy the mutas.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Plutonium wrote: Upon watching that again, Oov's army was completely arranged the wrong way to deal with the attack. The mutas hit the tanks up top, the hydras hit the golies, and the Valks got cloned so fast.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Bifur wrote: Tanks of oov were killed by muta, because his goliaths were misplaced. And then his goliaths were killed by hydra, because he lost his tanks.
Did you see the scourges killing the valks?
Mutas shouldn't do so much damage but they did.
Scourge > Valk, that's ZvP wisdom at work here
even if his army were not positioned for anti-hydra he'd have gotten raped
Oov would have done great if he only had the tanks and golies together. The Tanks would have gibbed the hydras, the golies could have focus-fired the scourge while he ran the valks, and then once the scourge are gone, the valks come back and destroy the mutas.
not possible, ai doesn't target like that, scourges will always hit with muta drawing fire
On November 17 2008 20:08 Plutonium wrote: Upon watching that again, Oov's army was completely arranged the wrong way to deal with the attack. The mutas hit the tanks up top, the hydras hit the golies, and the Valks got cloned so fast.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Bifur wrote: Tanks of oov were killed by muta, because his goliaths were misplaced. And then his goliaths were killed by hydra, because he lost his tanks.
Did you see the scourges killing the valks?
Mutas shouldn't do so much damage but they did.
Scourge > Valk, that's ZvP wisdom at work here
even if his army were not positioned for anti-hydra he'd have gotten raped
Oov would have done great if he only had the tanks and golies together. The Tanks would have gibbed the hydras, the golies could have focus-fired the scourge while he ran the valks, and then once the scourge are gone, the valks come back and destroy the mutas.
not possible, ai doesn't target like that, scourges will always hit with muta drawing fire
It's called Micro, dude.
Edit: Wait, what am I saying? Oov with micro? Lol.
On November 17 2008 20:12 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: It was totally different but I think that a few vultures running around the map could have sniped a few of those undefended drones / hatches to slow down the expansion rate.
On November 17 2008 20:12 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: It was totally different but I think that a few vultures running around the map could have sniped a few of those undefended drones / hatches to slow down the expansion rate.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Plutonium wrote: Upon watching that again, Oov's army was completely arranged the wrong way to deal with the attack. The mutas hit the tanks up top, the hydras hit the golies, and the Valks got cloned so fast.
On November 17 2008 20:08 Bifur wrote: Tanks of oov were killed by muta, because his goliaths were misplaced. And then his goliaths were killed by hydra, because he lost his tanks.
Did you see the scourges killing the valks?
Mutas shouldn't do so much damage but they did.
Scourge > Valk, that's ZvP wisdom at work here
even if his army were not positioned for anti-hydra he'd have gotten raped
Oov would have done great if he only had the tanks and golies together. The Tanks would have gibbed the hydras, the golies could have focus-fired the scourge while he ran the valks, and then once the scourge are gone, the valks come back and destroy the mutas.
not possible, ai doesn't target like that, scourges will always hit with muta drawing fire
It's called Micro, dude.
Edit: Wait, what am I saying? Oov with micro? Lol.
LOL
nobody can target 6+ scourges on the move individually while hydralingmuta are moving in for the kill, that's pure by.fantasydope fantasy
besides, if valks are running and golis are shooting scourges, how's 3-4 tanks gonna stop the hydralingmuta?
Sheesh...oov's build was great. His battle formation was very poor (I don't think he expected an attack right then, as mines werent layed), but more importantly his timing was wrong. This was a Flash mech build with valkyries, not oov's other build which wouldn't have worked vs Zero's 2 hatch in main muta.
While oov could still have won that battle, it would have been excessively costly unless Zero was really stupid about it. micro this, blah blah whatever, the entire game hinged on that undiscovered 7 expansion. As much as I wanted oov to win, that was incredibly smart of Zero to use oov's own play against him vs a build that completely revolves around 1 timing attack. oov used so many scouting scvs to check for Zero's expansions and to know when to move out. If Zero had not taken 7, oov would have had a much superior army (although his timing was still a bit slow given that Zero took the 9 base too). oov games are about economics and timing. Battle micro or minor harassment isn't going to change anything. Bar extreme stupidity, oov was going to win if Zero did not take that extra expansion unseen the entire game. And once Zero did, again bar extreme stupidty, oov was going to lose.
On November 17 2008 20:27 QibingZero wrote: Wow, what complete domination. GG.
I still want to know how GGPlay held early.
It was like 8 lings and 2 drones vs like 15 lings. GGPlay came with like 7 lings left after killing all of S2's lings. My guess is some awesome "move" micro >_>
he coulda split his lings into 2 groups, charge down both bridges and surround ggplay, instead he was pacing back and forth like there was 1 single choke. you know what that says to me? he was repeating generic training scenario like a robot
woojin's purchase's like totally worth it now that stars are stomping azzezzezz
On November 17 2008 20:32 .risingdragoon wrote:ridges and surround ggplay, instead he was pacing back and forth like there was 1 single choke. you know what that says to me? he was repeating generic training scenario like a robot
It's not like T1 had a decent chance to make a comeback anyway. I don't think iloveoov would have taken the risk to play in the first place if they thought they still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs.
This being said, 0-12 for their Z players now. Scary!
Wow T1, wow. Have they become complacent? What the fuck is going on at the T1 house? Poor practice routines? I can't make sense of it...suddenly Hyuk, Canata and Midas are totally incapable of winning games.
On November 18 2008 01:38 PoP wrote: It's not like T1 had a decent chance to make a comeback anyway. I don't think iloveoov would have taken the risk to play in the first place if they thought they still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs.
This being said, 0-12 for their Z players now. Scary!
Isn't this season twice as long though? Hopefully they can still make a comeback.
Best played very ridiculousy.He lost dragoons on mines,and 5-6 arbiters on goliaths. Like a he doesnt care about PL. I think SKT1 got really trouble inside the team. MB it is fault of Manager...
On November 18 2008 07:58 simcar wrote: Best played very ridiculousy.He lost dragoons on mines,and 5-6 arbiters on goliaths. Like a he doesnt care about PL.
By the time he lost those arbiters, the game was already won (he had broken PianO's front door and was streaming troops in to seal the game).
As for the dragoons, if you're referring to the recall there's really no way BeSt could have known that there were mines where he recalled. Trying to get his arbiter further into PianO's base would have been impossible due to gols and turrets. This happens every once in a while, a Protoss will just get unlucky and recall into a bunch of mines.
Not sure how either of those episodes indicate that BeSt doesn't care about PL. In fact, I think it's pretty ridiculous in general to say that the holder of the PL's second-best record doesn't care about his Proleague games. Best is practicing all day every day for his PL matches, just like every other decent pro player.
On November 18 2008 01:38 PoP wrote: It's not like T1 had a decent chance to make a comeback anyway. I don't think iloveoov would have taken the risk to play in the first place if they thought they still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs.
This being said, 0-12 for their Z players now. Scary!
hahahaha 0-12 WOW, that's really bad. Yea, I think I remember S2 losing during that blizzard sandlot event to some foreigners, not surprised to see him struggling. and rumble has always been bad.. I did expect more from hyuk though ;;
edit: They should definitely play GoRush, he isn't nearly as bad as s2 or rumble
On November 18 2008 09:39 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: Bisu, what the fuck have you been doing?
It's not like he lost to a noob. Besides, making early game mistakes against free usually equals suicide. No one loves small/mid size goon army micro battle more than free.
So, tonight's PL game was:
-Bisu < free. Well, no one can really say it came as a surprise. Bisu played better and won the series in the MSL semis, but right now, any series between these two could go either way. Bisu fucked up at the beginning with those 2 goons, and I know most of TL knew free wasn't gonna let that chance slip.
-BeSt > PianO . PianO rushed it after he saw all those goons explode to mines, he got his vessels freezed, he couldn't EMP shit, he got roasted under all those HT that slipped just behind him after that. If he hadn't screwed up so much there he might have been able to hold his position and win, but he screwed up.
-Oov < ZerO. You didn't seriously expect Oov to comeback and start wrecking havoc in his first game? If he ever gets to wreck havoc again, it will still take him some time, and although he was not playing a JD or a yarnc, ZerO is no T1 zerg. Actually he is becoming the third column of WStars.
-Another T1 zerg < GGPlay. GGPlay went without glasses and he couldn't really tell an overlord from a drone, and he still owned the T1 zerg. No, seriously, at one point I almost believed T1 could break their z losing streak. GGPlay is regaining confidence and strength since he moved back to his home, and for T1... different face, same result. But at least s2 showed some spirit. Dumb, reckless, blindsighted spirit, but that's more than you can say for Hyuk, who couldn't make the lineup this week because he had a prozac overdose.
-Another T1 zerg < GGPlay. GGPlay went without glasses and he couldn't really tell an overlord from a drone, and he still owned the T1 zerg. No, seriously, at one point I almost believed T1 could break their z losing streak. GGPlay is regaining confidence and strength since he moved back to his home, and for T1... different face, same result. But at least s2 showed some spirit. Dumb, reckless, blindsighted spirit, but that's more than you can say for Hyuk, who couldn't make the lineup this week because he had a prozac overdose.
Haha. That's classic.
I see that s2 continues the great tradition of SKT1 Zergs. It seems they stopped playing Hyuk who is 0-10 in last 10 games! Now is time for s2 to get his record 'fixed' (it's not like he needs much; he has winning percentage below 30% now).
I think it's time for T1 to start throwing B-team Zergs into the lineup.
Modern[fOu]? OK, he lost 0-2 to ToSsGirL in GOM but whatever...at least he's young (16). n.die_soo? His pro record of 0-0 is gosu compared to other T1 Zergs punsoo? Damn this guy is ugly
well at least oov would own in a little all-coach tourny.. SKT1 loss was pretty surprising to me.
Piano's always been on top in WStars roster but he didn't deliver well today. Though they win and that definitely looks good for the new sponsor, gratz~
As for the dragoons, if you're referring to the recall there's really no way BeSt could have known that there were mines where he recalled. Trying to get his arbiter further into PianO's base would have been impossible due to gols and turrets. This happens every once in a while, a Protoss will just get unlucky and recall into a bunch of mines.
So, would you say that we cannot expect a top protoss player to check out the spot at which the play to recall to first? They should just leave it to luck?