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On December 22 2007 21:50 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:46 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:38 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas. the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_< If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs. Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference. I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot. of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys... also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now... That is quite ignorant Do you know that units in SC power increace is not linear, but an exponential increace, lets put it this way 4sairs=16 power 5sairs=25 power
the thing is it doesnt help if it still isnt enough i think 5 sairs wouldnt have made much of a difference you guys obviously do, but you are wrong just watch the vod...
i even read the templrs just come out when the battle finishes... come on dont make the game more beautiful than it really was... it was just an attack that was good, but the timing was not spectacular half a minute later or a minute and the outcome would probably be the same unless he would have built 3 goons it might have helped....
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let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
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On December 22 2007 21:58 Kaolla wrote:
let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
How bout you play some ZvP or PvZ yourself, see the diffrence yourself between having 4 sairs to 6 sairs, youll be quite shocked, but I dont know, maybe Im a horrible SC player.
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 22 2007 21:53 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass. i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this.
One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one.
If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack).
4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better.
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Thank you Lee ! <3
From 11-shared place to 6-single place in LB !
 Lee Jae Dong
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Just for a clarification, the increase is not exponential but QUADRATIC.
A linear increase is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
An exponential increase is 1, 2, 4, 8, 16...
And quadratic is of course 1, 4, 9, 16, 25...
Just a clarification. ^^
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On December 22 2007 21:58 Kaolla wrote:
let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
In one minute, he could've easily added 2-3 more cannons to his main (he was fortifying his nat much more heavily for some odd reason) and build nearly 2 more corsairs, not to mention that the archon was also coming. With about 5+ sairs it is really hard to split scourge to effectively target them all without losses in scourge, unless given time to chase them.
He may have been able to fight the battle in place over the cannons (i.e NOT run and give Jaedong time to split his scourge to perfection). If Jaedong tries send muta in first to try to delay and give time to split scourge, the 5 sairs hurt the mutas a LOT and 5-6 cannons >>> heavily damaged mutas. I'm not certain how many mutas he had, but I don't think it was more than 8 or 9.
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On December 22 2007 22:00 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:58 Kaolla wrote:
let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done... How bout you play some ZvP or PvZ yourself, see the diffrence yourself between having 4 sairs to 6 sairs, youll be quite shocked, but I dont know, maybe Im a horrible SC player.
ok this is really my last reply... first of all it woulda been 4 or 5, not 4 or 6... second of all i am aware the difference is big...
the thing is because of the way JD moves in he has to target either muta or scourge, but because of the things happening targetting the muta would be auto since they fly in first, then he has to manually target scourge, which will probably take a very small ammount of time as well, but he would probably have problems killing them as well with 5 sairs (aka couldnt) then nothing changes he still can choose attack muta and die do a bit mroe dmg but still lose like he did with 4 or attack scourge but dont kill them and let the sairs die without any dmg... last option is fly away to exp save sairs and let main fall without scourges dying... all in all the options would be the same... the thing this is about is just that 5 sairs instead of 4 would have not given him the power to stop this (I think) and thus the timing didnt matter since no other strong anti air thing was coming up anytime soon... obviously you guys think the 5th sair magically woulda saved him, but its probably just to justify the game as being superb instead of being just mediocre (like it was) >.<
anyway blah!
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 22 2007 22:05 StRyKeR wrote:
Just for a clarification, the increase is not exponential but QUADRATIC.
A linear increase is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
An exponential increase is 1, 2, 4, 8, 16...
And quadratic is of course 1, 4, 9, 16, 25...
Just a clarification. ^^
Yes you're right haha. It's not a true exponential increase.
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On December 22 2007 22:05 StRyKeR wrote:
Just for a clarification, the increase is not exponential but QUADRATIC.
A linear increase is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
An exponential increase is 1, 2, 4, 8, 16...
And quadratic is of course 1, 4, 9, 16, 25...
Just a clarification. ^^
A Quadratic equation is an exponential equation, I just used ^2 as an example, Quadratic exponential growth seems more accurate than square exponential growth in SC.
Edit: Btw is it that hard to aruge vs a couple of "horrible" Players ?
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Koalla is right here. There is nothing spectacular about timing there.4 sair or 5 sair wouldn't make any difference. I dont know why you guys talking about 6-8 sairs here. 4+1=5 no? That's what we call "timing".
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On December 22 2007 22:02 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:53 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass. i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav).... I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this. One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one. If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack). 4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better.
sob ok you make me respond as well... yea the cannons auto target muta as well tho and even vs smaller numbers stork already couldnt target the scourges so vs larger number he most surely couldnt.... the cannon placement woulda been near his nexus so it would've easily targetted the muta if not ok then he loses some scourges but vs quite some muta the cannons die fast anyway... the sairs now were just running too, i think like i mentioned before the way of flying in made sure his sairs could not target both muta and scourge so it was a choice... where targetting scourge probably wouldnt have helped.... both things are easy wins for the muta scourge i think...
maybe we can ask ashur to create a simulation and recreate it exactly including stork and JD AI or sth >_< but i dont believe in a stork win or good timing....
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It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
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can you just say non-linear?
how can you quantitively proove if the increase is quadratic of exponential
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 22 2007 22:12 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 22:02 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:53 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass. i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav).... I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this. One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one. If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack). 4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better. sob ok you make me respond as well... yea the cannons auto target muta as well tho and even vs smaller numbers stork already couldnt target the scourges so vs larger number he most surely couldnt.... the cannon placement woulda been near his nexus so it would've easily targetted the muta if not ok then he loses some scourges but vs quite some muta the cannons die fast anyway... the sairs now were just running too, i think like i mentioned before the way of flying in made sure his sairs could not target both muta and scourge so it was a choice... where targetting scourge probably wouldnt have helped.... both things are easy wins for the muta scourge i think... maybe we can ask ashur to create a simulation and recreate it exactly including stork and JD AI or sth >_< but i dont believe in a stork win or good timing....
I'm saying with another cannon and another sair, Stork might not have run away, because it's harder for Jaedong to perfectly scourge a pack of 5 sairs with 5 cannons underneath. Stork might have just stayed and fought, and 5 sairs might have melted a few of the scourge before they killed the sairs, which would have made him win the fight, because he'd have 4 cannons left + 1 or 2 damaged sairs vs a muta pack. With only 4 sairs, Stork ran and his sairs basically did nothing.
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On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote:
It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 22 2007 22:16 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote:
It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do. well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
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On December 22 2007 22:17 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 22:16 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote:
It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do. well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
You mean horrible players rite? 
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On December 22 2007 22:15 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 22:12 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 22:02 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:53 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass. i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav).... I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this. One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one. If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack). 4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better. sob ok you make me respond as well... yea the cannons auto target muta as well tho and even vs smaller numbers stork already couldnt target the scourges so vs larger number he most surely couldnt.... the cannon placement woulda been near his nexus so it would've easily targetted the muta if not ok then he loses some scourges but vs quite some muta the cannons die fast anyway... the sairs now were just running too, i think like i mentioned before the way of flying in made sure his sairs could not target both muta and scourge so it was a choice... where targetting scourge probably wouldnt have helped.... both things are easy wins for the muta scourge i think... maybe we can ask ashur to create a simulation and recreate it exactly including stork and JD AI or sth >_< but i dont believe in a stork win or good timing.... I'm saying with another cannon and another sair, Stork might not have run away, because it's harder for Jaedong to perfectly scourge a pack of 5 sairs with 5 cannons underneath. Stork might have just stayed and fought, and 5 sairs might have melted a few of the scourge before they killed the sairs, which would have made him win the fight, because he'd have 4 cannons left + 1 or 2 damaged sairs vs a muta pack. With only 4 sairs, Stork ran and his sairs basically did nothing.
the thing is that with 5 sairs maybe he woulda killed some but then he had 1 or 2 sairs which you just argued for did nothing because f the quadratic dmg thing...
anywya even if he had that the difference was just too big to justify any diffence in outcome i believe... and he was just still too low on sairs... if he had a steadier production of anti air and just 1 sair more i would have believed in it but he had no strong anti air comin up >.<
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On December 22 2007 22:17 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 22:16 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote:
It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do. well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
0 difference...
would still have been too little...
even if he killed 2-4 scourge it still woulda been too little and GG
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EPT
