Hmm i cant watch this on daum unless i do something extra? Usually i can watch on daum but this time i get a pop-up box telling me something in korean then it wont start... damn, anyone else having the same problem?
HITTE THANK GOD YOU CAME AND MADE THIS THREAD, i was kinda wondering like where the hell is the thread 10 mins b4 the finals start. JAEDONG, GORUSH WILL WATCH OVER YOU O_O!!
On December 22 2007 18:07 LxRogue wrote: Hey, they aren't so bad, and i guess this is going to be the live report thread? Because the other one is just jaedong hype.
Stork seas the pool after ovie build. Stork has forged first and does a nice pylon block at the narrow area near the z base to deny a drone scout^^ Lings out and jaedong gets a late gas after discovering the pylon. Stork has 2 cannons on there way and gateway to block. Stork nicely blocks the drone about to build jaedongs nat. Jaedong has an extremely late nat!
Jaedong finally gains access to his nat when 2 lings kill the probe. Jaedong making a quick lair. Stork should scout it though. A quick gas goes up for P. As well as a fast cy core. Jaedong makes a hydra den when the lair is half down. Probably plans to use lurk + swarm to gain some quick/safe expos.
Stargate down for stork. No +1 yet so we could see a very tech heavy build. Ahhh a second starport in the back of Storks base. The overlord is oblivious. 3 zealots move out to pressure + scout. 2 hdras make it under swarm, I dont know if stork saw this. Sair out, taking out an ovie. 2 lurks being morphed.
Jaedong looks to be in trouble as stork is well prepared with cannons and taking out a third ovie. Jaedong launches his all in attack!! It fails as stork displays nice defensive skills to shut down the all in lurk/ling attack. 4 sairs raping overlords left and write. Jaedong struggling with low drones to do get some anti air up. Jaedong GGs. He had no way of comming back after failing so bad with that all it.
On December 22 2007 18:42 game.no wrote: stork proves how powerful bisu build is and how good he is with it.
You're retarded. Stork didnt prove anything except that he has good game reading abilities and that jaedong made a stupid choice to all in. The strength of P's build did not even come into play this game. It was more a great demonstration of early P probe harass. This caused jaedong to lean towards an all in style of play because he knew he would be behind after his extremely late nat.
wow i also like zvt better than zvp and am better at it... but how can u be so godly in zvt and so ABYSMAL in zvp? anything else than jaedong getting owned 3-0 will surprise me if he continues to play zvp at this level. Its MUCH WORSE than zvp from one of the zerg twins... and that says alot t.t
On December 22 2007 18:48 game.no wrote: jaedong didn't play badly, stop hating. stork is a strong player, used to be weak in pvz with his old build. his new bisu build rapes faces.
On December 22 2007 18:46 LonelyMargarita wrote: How long until typing the phrase "bisu build" is a 2 day ban? The sooner the better (or filter it to say something else).
That scout probe harassing REALLY caused jaedong to falter then breakdown, THE HATCHERY POPPED OUT THE SAME TIME AS STORK's NEXUS, jaedong was so behind already esp doing such a low econ, he had no choice to do an all in or hanbang if not he'll get raped horribly at mid-late game.
On December 22 2007 18:48 game.no wrote: jaedong didn't play badly, stop hating. stork is a strong player, used to be weak in pvz with his old build. his new bisu build rapes faces.
incredible lol
go jaedong, make this a good fight please. roll over stork with the new savior build gogo
Jaedong didnt play that bad per say. He was forced to play from behind after doing a poorly chosen 9 pool into expo build. Stork did an excellent job of delaying the drone with pylons/probe harass. This caused jaedong to change his build and add a late gas. If you can force your opponent to do this, youre in a great situation. Jaedong simply decided to take a gamble and do an all in lurker/ling build instead of struggle into a mid/late game way behind.
On December 22 2007 18:50 dragoonkf wrote: That scout probe harassing REALLY caused jaedong to falter then breakdown, THE HATCHERY POPPED OUT THE SAME TIME AS STORK's NEXUS, jaedong was so behind already esp doing such a low econ, he had no choice to do an all in or hanbang if not he'll get raped horribly at mid-late game.
Lol is stork apm 182 ? while jaedong was... 276 ? I saw the highest APM for jaedong was 465 ? while stork as only 250+... goes to show apm =\= game win
On December 22 2007 18:53 dragoonkf wrote: Lol is stork apm 182 ? while jaedong was... 276 ? I saw the highest APM for jaedong was 465 ? while stork as only 250+... goes to show apm =\= game win
You lose faith quickly LR. 12 hatch 11 pool is looks like from jaedong. First zealot on its way as a probe harasses drones, jaedong sends one out. He will most likely see the first Z comming and he does, then runs back.
Stork displaying great zealot micro as he lays a nexus down in back. He is controling 2 seperate zealots in jaedongs base. Now a third comes and 2 zs take down 2 lings. The 1 zealot is still alive at jaedongs expansion, running around Jaedong pulls some drones! Hes getting desperate but he runs them back. Stork with amazing zealot micro but one finally goes down. A third hatch is down in jaedongs base.
Lair going down as 2 zealots get 2 more drone kills before going down. It looks like stork did all off ONE gate. Not 2. Spire down for jaedong. Forge done + a cannon. Stargate down as well. A citadel is started as well as a second gas. Surely stork will expect muta and prepare in time while massing sairs. He's in great position.
A sair gets 2 overlord kills. But jaedongs mutas are hatched without slow down. A third hatch going down for jaedong and stork looks to have good timing but may be in trouble from muta/scourge strikes.
3 gates and no archives for stork. Stork seems to be opting for a +1 zeal speeds off three gates!Ah archeives down by his nat. Ohh amazing muta /scourge work as the cannons are abit slow. Jaedong takes down the cannons and 3 sairs. He also blocks his front with 2 evos against the +1 speed zeal counter. Another sair down from scourge! Stork in deep trouble. Beautifully played game from jaedong. He had to do something suprising and he did, with perfect timing.
Nice play be Jaedong. Was Stork being cocky or something? Even AFTER he scouted the fast spire, he didn't add many cannon to his main and added GATES (no archive), instead of building corsair.
lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
Storks build was fine. The early zealot harass was fantastic for him. His mistake (and a huge one at that) was being too comfortable with his sairs and as a result he had REALLY slow cannons. If he had 5 cannons by each nexus before muta arrived he wouldve been in a commanding position. His zeal counter attack wouldve killed the zerg 2nd gas expo. The result wouldve been a midgame P win.
Whats weird is, why didnt stork get some DRAGOONS at least ? i mean he did scout the spire it cant be a fake =/ If stork managed to stop that attack, he would stand a chance.
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn't ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
On December 22 2007 19:12 AnOth3rDAy wrote: stork constantly made corsairs thought, it was really nice micro by jaedong imo.
He didn\'t add a second stargate after scouting the spire though.
o when did he scout the spire? with probe or when i didnt notice ;x
he scouted it with his first corsair, but then got too comfortable with himself and didnt prepare enough for jaedong\'s one and only hope of winning the game and got punished for it
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
No, you don't understand. If Zerg wins, it's great play by Zerg. If Zerg loses, it's bad play by Zerg. Protoss is a boring constant. Kind of like a wall of defenders with free kicks in football. If the free-kick taker scores, he did well. If he misses, he didn't do well. It's not like you say: "Oh, great work, wall". Less *yawn* protoss, more *yeee* Zerg. :-)
On December 22 2007 19:17 Scooter wrote: AHAHA! OH MY GOD!! Anyone else see that parody of Love Actually with Jaedong and his coach? Freaking genius!! Someone youtube that shit.
OH THAT'S WHAT THOSE SIGNS WERE AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAha
On December 22 2007 19:17 dragoonkf wrote: Whats weird is, why didnt stork get some DRAGOONS at least ? i mean he did scout the spire it cant be a fake =/ If stork managed to stop that attack, he would stand a chance.
2nd'd Some goons wouldve been better than those all in zeals I mean all in zeals vs all in muta wtf?
On December 22 2007 19:17 dragoonkf wrote: Whats weird is, why didnt stork get some DRAGOONS at least ? i mean he did scout the spire it cant be a fake =/ If stork managed to stop that attack, he would stand a chance.
Well many zerg simply get a spire and make 6 scourge. They then go hyrda while adding 2 evos and taking a third gas + more hatches. They then use hydras to pressure while teching lurk for a mid game win.
Looks like Stork is again uncomfortable with using the full Protoss tech like bisu does, ironically it's almost like the opposite of his PvP (where he tries to tech faster usually).
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn't ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
omgay
well 1 minute later and it woulda been about the same he was just not prepared... and he just was too confident on those few sairs he had as someone else mentioned... the comentators also have to be superexcited since it is the finals... this was definately not one of those super timing moments as you all seem to want ppl to believe.. just a mediocre game like game 1 or a great game like game 1 whatever you want... oh and no need to flame... bunch of 15 yr olds here...
On December 22 2007 19:17 dragoonkf wrote: Whats weird is, why didnt stork get some DRAGOONS at least ? i mean he did scout the spire it cant be a fake =/ If stork managed to stop that attack, he would stand a chance.
2nd'd Some goons wouldve been better than those all in zeals I mean all in zeals vs all in muta wtf?
You're missing the point of storks build. You don't build dragoons. You build pure sair/zeal/temp and completely rape the late game. Unfortunately stork failed to protect from early game timings and didnt get to that point. THat doesnt mean goons wouldve been a good idea. He simply needed more cannons and earlier.
Now that I see the replay, that was excellent tactics by Jaedong. First he tried to lure the corsairs out by attacking the cannon on the edge of the base. It worked, but Stork retreated them too fast for the scourgaes. But then, Jaedong presses the attack. He uses mutas to take down the cannons while running his scourges into the corsairs.
If Stork had made his cannons target the scourges, the mutalisks would have torn up his cannons and the remaining scourge would have killed his corsairs.
If Stork had targeted the mutas with his corsairs the scourge would have killed them while they were stationary.
So Stork targeted the mutas with his cannons and ran his corsairs away, which gave the mutas free reign over his base.
On December 22 2007 19:20 BluzMan wrote: As absurd as it might seem, muta tech is the way to play against sair debuts.
I wouldn't say that necessarily. Fast gates harass forge cannons, then tech is just uneblievably slow. Stork used to do this and that's why he lost so much. He could have had much more corsairs.
On December 22 2007 19:17 Scooter wrote: AHAHA! OH MY GOD!! Anyone else see that parody of Love Actually with Jaedong and his coach? Freaking genius!! Someone youtube that shit.
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn't ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
omgay
well 1 minute later and it woulda been about the same he was just not prepared... and he just was too confident on those few sairs he had as someone else mentioned... the comentators also have to be superexcited since it is the finals... this was definately not one of those super timing moments as you all seem to want ppl to believe.. just a mediocre game like game 1 or a great game like game 1 whatever you want... oh and no need to flame... bunch of 15 yr olds here...
I'm not flaming but the first line of this post clearly shows you have no clue. A minute late stork wouldve repelled the attack easily because he wouldve had 2 more sairs. And at least another cannon. Not only that but he wouldve had time to get an archon out most likely as well.
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn't ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
omgay
well 1 minute later and it woulda been about the same he was just not prepared... and he just was too confident on those few sairs he had as someone else mentioned... the comentators also have to be superexcited since it is the finals... this was definately not one of those super timing moments as you all seem to want ppl to believe.. just a mediocre game like game 1 or a great game like game 1 whatever you want... oh and no need to flame... bunch of 15 yr olds here...
I'm not flaming but the first line of this post clearly shows you have no clue. A minute late stork wouldve repelled the attack easily because he wouldve had 2 more sairs. And at least another cannon. Not only that but he wouldve had time to get an archon out most likely as well.
Agreed. The timing was such that RIGHT when the cannons/sairs all died the templar popped and were immediately sniped. It was beautiful.
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that's an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it's not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn't ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
omgay
well 1 minute later and it woulda been about the same he was just not prepared... and he just was too confident on those few sairs he had as someone else mentioned... the comentators also have to be superexcited since it is the finals... this was definately not one of those super timing moments as you all seem to want ppl to believe.. just a mediocre game like game 1 or a great game like game 1 whatever you want... oh and no need to flame... bunch of 15 yr olds here...
I'm not flaming but the first line of this post clearly shows you have no clue. A minute late stork wouldve repelled the attack easily because he wouldve had 2 more sairs. And at least another cannon. Not only that but he wouldve had time to get an archon out most likely as well.
Jaedong going for over pool hatch safe build. Hes at 9. Stork with nexus + forge + gateway + cannon. He pulls 8 probes and thanks to excellent building positioning hes safe from jaedongs early lings. Jaedong has his gas done as well as a third hatchery. He seems to going for a standard 3 hatch drone pump + lair tech.
Stork with cy core done. Jaedongs overlord spots the stargate as more cannons go up at the 2nd nat nexus. Spire is down. Early timing on the spire...dangerous. Hopefully stork will get enough cannons this time He starts a robo as his zealots move out to pressure/scout. He should be able to spot the spire! He does and walks into the zerg main. His cannon timing shouldnt be late this time 2 zeals harassing the main base drones. They take out 1 before being surrounded by lings. Jaedong has made another gas expansion.
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that\'s an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it\'s not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn\'t ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
omgay
well 1 minute later and it woulda been about the same he was just not prepared... and he just was too confident on those few sairs he had as someone else mentioned... the comentators also have to be superexcited since it is the finals... this was definately not one of those super timing moments as you all seem to want ppl to believe.. just a mediocre game like game 1 or a great game like game 1 whatever you want... oh and no need to flame... bunch of 15 yr olds here...
I\'m not flaming but the first line of this post clearly shows you have no clue. A minute late stork wouldve repelled the attack easily because he wouldve had 2 more sairs. And at least another cannon. Not only that but he wouldve had time to get an archon out most likely as well.
Agreed. The timing was such that RIGHT when the cannons/sairs all died the templar popped and were immediately sniped. It was beautiful.
learn to watch objective to a game... minute owulda been maybe +1 sair and maybe 1 cannon which wouldnt have helped too much at all.. still enough scourges left after following the sairs and the templars were quite late as well wasnt like they were killed right after all resistance died or even during... you just make it beautiful in your mind but it wasnt that superb at all... timing was NOT that important in this match and he just raped stork cause his def was down.. done... if you refuse to see that then you are just the ignorant one... any game is different if 1 of them would attack some time later and theo ther would have 423423 more units... nothing special, normal game...
Jaedong has made only scourge from his early spire. Keeping them out of his base in the early game to deny scouting. Jaedong has so many hatcherys ! Wow a shuttle barely avoids some scourge. Sairs take out a few more scourge as Stork takes the island at 12. This is looking to be a pretty epic game as Jaedong has his 3rd gas done. The sairs move in to look around by are denied by hydras. One sair down.
Nice shuttle with reaver takes out 3 drones or so and forces the rest to run. Hydras are there but stork moves away quickly. Ah jaedong has burrowed lings around the mapto spot for shuttles and sair movement.
Ah nice hydra burrow trap denies some sair but stork is quick and doesnt lose any. Templar archives finally down for stork as he is beggining to mass gates. A spore at the zerg second nat. Jaedong has massed many hydra. Will he be able to switch his game plan in time to deal with the following land army?
On December 22 2007 19:10 Kaolla wrote: lol if jeadong wins its great play if stork wins its bad play by jeadong in case you guys didnt notice that was just as horrible play by stork, going for the wrong strat... stork haters... nothing amazing there just bad play by stork... wasted alot of zeals early on (altho they also did some dmg they coulda done much more) and way too little anti air...
3 drones and several lings for 3 zealots? off of one-gate? that\'s an excellent advantage to P early game.
also it\'s not like his zeals really came into play after that at all; having those 3 zealots would not have saved him from muta
4 zeal i think, being a good trade off doesnt mean that it couldnt have been better... he just wasted them when they died... and no they wouldnt have helped him against muta but as also mentioned he didnt counter it well enough but instead guessed on a more powerful build for lateron... thing is that he was already ahead...
nothing great by jeadong there some muta on attack move and some scourge... think most of us could have done the same thing... timing wasnt that special either he had to go asap else it was just waiting for defeat not rly any point in that...
WTF no way u could do that shit so well the scourge cloning was beautiful
and it wasn\'t ASAP ATTACK the commentators were like FUCKNG HAN TIMING HAN TIMGIN (ONE TIMING ONE TIMING) so jaedong just went in before theres like 5019205 cannons and corsairs
omgay
well 1 minute later and it woulda been about the same he was just not prepared... and he just was too confident on those few sairs he had as someone else mentioned... the comentators also have to be superexcited since it is the finals... this was definately not one of those super timing moments as you all seem to want ppl to believe.. just a mediocre game like game 1 or a great game like game 1 whatever you want... oh and no need to flame... bunch of 15 yr olds here...
I\'m not flaming but the first line of this post clearly shows you have no clue. A minute late stork wouldve repelled the attack easily because he wouldve had 2 more sairs. And at least another cannon. Not only that but he wouldve had time to get an archon out most likely as well.
Agreed. The timing was such that RIGHT when the cannons/sairs all died the templar popped and were immediately sniped. It was beautiful.
learn to watch objective to a game... minute owulda been maybe +1 sair and maybe 1 cannon which wouldnt have helped too much at all.. still enough scourges left after following the sairs and the templars were quite late as well wasnt like they were killed right after all resistance died or even during... you just make it beautiful in your mind but it wasnt that superb at all... timing was NOT that important in this match and he just raped stork cause his def was down.. done... if you refuse to see that then you are just the ignorant one... any game is different if 1 of them would attack some time later and theo ther would have 423423 more units... nothing special, normal game...
I'd say it was a little bit of both. It was good tactics by Jaedong after scouting with his scourge, but it's also biased to say that it was perfect timing in that he know the templar were just about to pop and Stork had just few enough units and it was all planned. It was more of a right place at the right time for Jaedong and he took advantage accordingly. But being biased is normal, we naturally hype our favorites in the finals of one of the biggest tournaments there are.
10 or so sairs + a shuttle with what i beleive to be 2 reavers moving towards the 2nd gas nat and the morphing main hatch! He drops a Dt and delys the hydras with sair + reaver. A nice reaver drop fires a scarab at a chunk of drones, but they run in time
Goon/zeal/reaver move to take another base but 2 burrowed lings see it. Either way i doubt jaedong will be able to stop it. Stork looking very strong this game.
Damn as I say this jaedong takes out a bunch of sairs and snipes a shuttle Mass lurk + hydra for jaedong. Goon reaver + temp for stork. Hive has started, as well as 2 creeps in the main base to defend harass if necessary.
Wow jaedong had a lot more than I thought. He seems to have slwed down the p counter. Wow hes stoped it cold while dropping the remaining hydras into the P main.
lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong lee jae dong
Jaedong forces Stork to GG. As his next wave obliterates the remains of the P army. Great play by jaedong to deny all harassment while macroing smoothly. That hydra drop was key as it forced stork t have to make an offensive play. A play that jaedong was more than ready for with good lurk positioning to delay the counter.
AMAZING play by Jae. Very Savior-esque, controlling the map all the time. Denied Stork harassment all the way until he gained a superior ground in eco, then dropped the expo, a last desperation attempt by Stork to retake the game resulted in a loss of the whole army and a main. Simply put, amazing, Savior has to learn from this game.
Reaver/Sair was completely owned, excellent map control by Jaedong. Impressive hydra drop too, considering the defense that was there and how his army still crushed Stork's soon after.
well; July vs Goodfriend had this situation; goodfriend was down 1-2 Nada vs Anytime had this situation; anytime was down 1-2 both won the first game as far as i can recall, these are the only games that have been in this situation; and the player that was down, wins game 4, then loses set 5
On December 22 2007 19:46 game.no wrote: Stork does not deliver, all the jaedong haters still have more to say? jaedong isnt playing bad at all, like I said.
wow what a great game by jaedong... can anyone grasp how game 3 and game 1 can be from the same zerg?? if someone showed me these vods without telling me who plays id say game 1 was a random guy who probably will never make it past online practice partner... game 3 i would have said "nice savior rep!"
On December 22 2007 19:36 Ancestral wrote: GAY scarab AI. Perfect execution there
Yeah, that was bullshit. Perfect drop but AI makes sure you don\'t get any kills.
The AI isnt THAT gay. There is some patern to it. Stork was quick to run drones so the hatch blocked the path/
They both had really good timing ... Stork with his dt + corsair for distraction and Jaedong with his drone running away. No other unit MISSES though. Oh well, gg by Jaedong. Go Stork! I BELIEEEEVE
On December 22 2007 19:46 game.no wrote: Stork does not deliver, all the jaedong haters still have more to say? jaedong isnt playing bad at all, like I said.
On December 22 2007 19:46 game.no wrote: Stork does not deliver, all the jaedong haters still have more to say? jaedong isnt playing bad at all, like I said.
You cant judge him from the 1st game, if you know anything about starcraft you know that he was forced to do that, although i admit that he could have positioned his lurkers better and actually have gotten that expansion down.
FUCKING HELL GOT FAMILY DINNER NOW GTG OUT T_______________________T
JAEDONG WIN PLZ THANKS!! >_<>_< or someone can like sms me the results overseas or sometihng, . j/k . o well guess i'll ahve to wait for the results >_<
Maybe Ill get flamed, but this is how I see things:
This game proves that there is no neo-gen PvZ. The difference to the the times before bisu is only he himself. His build is useless for anybody else. Bisu is a fucking genious that nobody comes even close to. His bo is known for more than a year now and I havent seen a convinging "neo-gen PvZ" from anybody else but Bisu. We have PvZ and we have Bisu vs Z. No neo-gen PvZ.
On December 22 2007 19:53 SayGG wrote: Maybe Ill get flamed, but this is how I see things:
This game proves that there is no neo-gen PvZ. The difference to the the times before bisu is only he himself. His build is useless for anybody else. Bisu is a fucking genious that nobody comes even close to. His bo is known for more than a year now and I havent seen a convinging "neo-gen PvZ" from anybody else but Bisu. We have PvZ and we have Bisu vs Z. No neo-gen PvZ.
On December 22 2007 19:53 alffla wrote: FUCKING HELL GOT FAMILY DINNER NOW GTG OUT T_______________________T
JAEDONG WIN PLZ THANKS!! >_<>_< or someone can like sms me the results overseas or sometihng, . j/k . o well guess i'll ahve to wait for the results >_<
이제동 GOGOGOGO
PM me your number if you need to know and are in china... otherwise never mind -_-
On December 22 2007 19:47 SoMuchBetter wrote: 3 absolutely abysmal games so far
Even game 3? Anyways, I can see Jaedong wrapping it up with an easy win on Blue Storm, especially if he can deny enough scouts.
I hope stork DOES go for scouts. Then JaeDong can't lose!
I played one game with close positions and I got raped by lone scouts sniping my ovies while my hydra were running around trying to catch them. It was sad.
On December 22 2007 19:46 game.no wrote: Stork does not deliver, all the jaedong haters still have more to say? jaedong isnt playing bad at all, like I said.
On December 22 2007 19:50 diehilde wrote: wow what a great game by jaedong... can anyone grasp how game 3 and game 1 can be from the same zerg?? if someone showed me these vods without telling me who plays id say game 1 was a random guy who probably will never make it past online practice partner... game 3 i would have said "nice savior rep!"
On December 22 2007 19:53 SayGG wrote: Maybe Ill get flamed, but this is how I see things:
This game proves that there is no neo-gen PvZ. The difference to the the times before bisu is only he himself. His build is useless for anybody else. Bisu is a fucking genious that nobody comes even close to. His bo is known for more than a year now and I havent seen a convinging \"neo-gen PvZ\" from anybody else but Bisu. We have PvZ and we have Bisu vs Z. No neo-gen PvZ.
Exactly... Every word is true. Not much of a finals so far, even game3 was just.. nice.
On December 22 2007 19:53 SayGG wrote: Maybe Ill get flamed, but this is how I see things:
This game proves that there is no neo-gen PvZ. The difference to the the times before bisu is only he himself. His build is useless for anybody else. Bisu is a fucking genious that nobody comes even close to. His bo is known for more than a year now and I havent seen a convinging "neo-gen PvZ" from anybody else but Bisu. We have PvZ and we have Bisu vs Z. No neo-gen PvZ.
So true. Bisu is now just using sair/reaver strats that have been part of PvZ arsenal for years without much success. BvZ imba =/
Jaedong at 7, Stork at 1. A pylon goes up at the choke. Jaedong pools first before overlord! Playing safe in case of proxys. A gas goes down as well. He might look to run by the choke with quick speedlings. Stork sees the early pool and of course goes forge first. He should follow with 2 cannons. And he does.
this is briliant. i couldn't have wished for something more humiliating for stork, than to try bisu's build throughout the whole final, and suck at it. ^_^
Storks first sair out to look at Jaedongs base. Temp archives comming in as well as a second gate. Jaedong looking to do some some dt harass it seems. However jaedong will be well prepared as his hydra den is down. Early scourge takes out a sair! Stork adds more gates. A dt is out and jaedong is starting his 2nd gas nat at 6.
Great timing by jaedong as a dt only gets 1 drone before a slow lord is in position. Jaedong not afraid of scourge it seems...and as a result losing another sair to scourge. Lings also trap and kill a Dt. Jaedong looks to be in great position.
Stork moving out with some speed zeals. No +1 yet. Lurks are out for jaedong! As well as 2 evos. Stork gets the canons at his min only in. But hes still behind. A thrid evo up for jaedong. Lurks defending his bases. Robo done for Stork. Will he be able to hurt jaedong before his econ gets out of control?
On December 22 2007 20:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Great timing by jaedong as a dt only gets 1 drone before a slow lord is in position. Jaedong not afraid of scourge it seems...and as a result losing another sair to scourge. Lings also trap and kill a Dt. Jaedong looks to be in great position.
It seems he's taking the: never let T get a ton of Science Vessles, idea to ZvP. I wonder if Bisu would have lost any corsairs like that.
Ooo a lurk is hidden behind the min only looking to get some probe kills. The first ob is out and stork is looking to take out the 2nd gas nat. Nice play by stork as he gets through and takes out the drones! But sotkrs many lurks + some lings stop the threat after some losses.
haha jaedong is the master of zerg walling, he blocked the entrance to 6 with evo + sunken but stork breaks in anyway with zeals/ht. lurkers behind the wall hit hard but stork gets through and gets a bunch of drones
Stork bravely starts a nexus at the lower right right under an overlord. Its protected by some zealots by a lot of lings on the move from jaedong. Jaedong has cracklings now.
Jaedong looking to take the top left base. Defedning with deflier/scourge/lurk and mass ling. Jaedong skillfully takes out some obs and stork turns around.
Wow beautiful! Stork engaging the zerg defenses and takes out almost all the lurks. But jaedong has another Huge army and 2 overlords faking a drop in the P main. Jaedong nicely flanks with lurks + attacking with lings and successfully takes out a chunk of goons + zs.
The game is very even still, way too early to call. Jaedong ahead but not by much as he is just now populating his 5th base. Stork stilll at 4. It will all come down to these next few battles. Stork is doing well but is out of storm and is facing mass cracks + swarm Stork really needs his 5th base and the time to mass up a unstoppable army. I Fear he will be crushed when ultras come out. Jaedong has a TON of hatches.
Wow! Hidden defilier in overlord drops and throws a plague + swarm. Hitting most of Storks goons. Stork has mannaged to sneak some cannons in at 12 and is starting a base there. Another plague goes off. A scary amount of lings for jaedong . Stork is trouble as he keeps wasting storms.
Ultras are out and jaedong is doom dropping the new base at 6. THere are many cannons there but they are not enough as the base falls! Stork looks to make a desperate counter but Jaedong has a amazingly huge army of lings + cracks. Beautiful ZvP from Jaedong here.
how horribly bad was that game.. it seemed like a p that had no idea what to do to counter the strat of his opponent just wandering around all game knowing he couldn't do anything >.<
On December 22 2007 20:21 1esu wrote: Where the HELL did that ZvP come from?
it came from stork doing nothing with his sair dt, letting jaedong have 4 bases for nothing then wasting his entire first force into a building/lurker block
The argument for why dominating in the stats department all year does not champion make has never been put forth better in this OSL finals. That aside, wtf Stork. This is the third final of somesort you've completely blown in a favoured showing (PvP vs Bisu, PvT vs Iris, PvZ vs Jaedong).
On December 22 2007 20:26 dokus wrote: Good job stork. Don't worry, here's a samsung phone. Why don't you call all your friends and tell them that you FAILED.
On December 22 2007 20:27 Kraekkling wrote: fuck i wanna be korean and my mom should cry while saying "w00t my son is so great at playing computergames" xd
dude some korean parents are worse than anything u can imagine. im guessing at first his parents were like "wtf, progamer? gtfo" but then he showed them a paycheck from a tourney win and they were like "omg <3"
On December 22 2007 20:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I guess the girl in the audience is Jaedongs girlfriend. She\'s starting to cry as well now, and shes really attractive
On December 22 2007 20:27 Last Romantic wrote: Interviewer: So how did you do it? Jaedong: I had difficulties ZvP but I knew my ZvT was very strong. So I raped Stork with ZvT strategies eZ
On December 22 2007 20:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I guess the girl in the audience is Jaedongs girlfriend. She\'s starting to cry as well now, and shes really attractive
On December 22 2007 20:27 Kraekkling wrote: fuck i wanna be korean and my mom should cry while saying "w00t my son is so great at playing computergames" xd
dude some korean parents are worse than anything u can imagine. im guessing at first his parents were like "wtf, progamer? gtfo" but then he showed them a paycheck from a tourney win and they were like "omg <3"
Cmon guys give Stork a break, he played his best but jaedong did better. Yes he may be bad-mannered sometimes but he is a good player, im sure he was having fun when he did FBH dance also. He didnt said anything bad when jaedong won, so yea hope we can keep supporting him !
game 1: quite a bad all-in attempt by Jae. Stork surprisingly walked away with dual SG corsairs, but the game-deciding thing was awful micro by Jae when he attacked.
game 2: insane timing attack by Jae. pinned the sairs and raped the expo. A demonstration of how sair debuts are stopped by a muta tech fork.
game 3: just awesome play by Jae. zero room for harassment, map domination, insane economy. Stork was behind for the whole game.
game 4: I still don't quite understand what happened. 9 pool into an eco build? Late game ling/filer? Jae has a very fruitful habit to not rely on ultralisks for as long as possible, but that was taking it to the extreme. Still, great play.
overall series impression: the camera showed too little of lilsusie.
EDIT: there is so much "Jae" in this post because Stork did exactly nothing memorable in these series except for fun builds in game 1 and 2. But both of those proved quite useless as 2 SG sair didn't really help to deflect the attack and after it failed, the eco damage by sairs was an overkill. Game 3 and 4, Stork was inferior, not a single creative thing that succeeded.
On December 22 2007 20:45 BluzMan wrote: game 2: insane timing attack by Jae. pinned the sairs and raped the expo. A demonstration of how sair debuts are stopped by a muta tech fork.
he raped the main, the expo was completely cannons.
On December 22 2007 20:45 BluzMan wrote: game 2: insane timing attack by Jae. pinned the sairs and raped the expo. A demonstration of how sair debuts are stopped by a muta tech fork.
he raped the main, the expo was completely cannons.
On December 22 2007 20:26 dokus wrote: Good job stork. Don't worry, here's a samsung phone. Why don't you call all your friends and tell them that you FAILED.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
better micro or macro? I think Savior usually uses less units than his opponents
On December 22 2007 20:58 Last Romantic wrote: After seeing that game 3 by Jaedong and comparing it with game 3 by Bisu against sAviOr, I would like to see them play against each other on Fantasy.
IMO, one of the differences between the two games is that both Savior and Bisu played more aggressively in their game, while both Stork and Jaedong played passively (giving Zerg free map control). Bisu also had about 3-4 SICK storm drops (killed ~20 drones), while Stork got only 3 drones with his reaver and also lost a shuttle stupidly to scourge (Bisu was much more careful with his to keep it with sairs). Bisu expanded faster and more frequently, and secured his island better (at least double the amount of cannons). Jaedong also built more lurkers in mid-game which possibly stalled the push better, but his ridiculous economy allowed this.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
As far as finals go, I thought the series was rather lacking. Jaedong won convincingly and deserved his win, but the games didn't have much flair. The "perfect timing" in game 2 was more from Stork's incorrect judgment, for if he saw the late third and lack of hydra den he should've been far more prepared for the muta. Game 3 had great defense by Jaedong, but made for an uninteresting game when he just walked over Stork. Game 4 was like a typical blue storm game in proleague, with loads of lurks taking advantage of the trench and even more lings tearing apart a mostly goon army.
Overall I'm most disappointed in Stork for playing so uninspired. Nothing in this series even comes half as close to the finals we've had earlier this year, be it the epic game-changing stasis in Bisu v Stork, the tense down-to-the-wire beauty that was GGPlay v Iris, or the shocking revolution of PvZ when the invincible Maestro got 0-3'd. Props to Jaedong for his victory, but as a spectator, I can't help but wish for a little more from both players.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how else to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
On December 22 2007 21:15 Silverflame wrote: As far as finals go, I thought the series was rather lacking. Jaedong won convincingly and deserved his win, but the games didn't have much flair. The "perfect timing" in game 2 was more from Stork's incorrect judgment, for if he saw the late third and lack of hydra den he should've been far more prepared for the muta. Game 3 had great defense by Jaedong, but made for an uninteresting game when he just walked over Stork. Game 4 was like a typical blue storm game in proleague, with loads of lurks taking advantage of the trench and even more lings tearing apart a mostly goon army.
Overall I'm most disappointed in Stork for playing so uninspired. Nothing in this series even comes half as close to the finals we've had earlier this year, be it the epic game-changing stasis in Bisu v Stork, the tense down-to-the-wire beauty that was GGPlay v Iris, or the shocking revolution of PvZ when the invincible Maestro got 0-3'd. Props to Jaedong for his victory, but as a spectator, I can't help but wish for a little more from both players.
The game 2 muta attack was just perfectly executed and perfectly timed by Jaedong, I really don't see how much more prepared you can be than having 4 cannons and 4 corsairs. That's about as safe as it gets.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
oh and the execution was good, yes i couldnt have done that so well... but even clon woulda managed to do that... not that special...
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
You are a Terran player with probably little to no experience with either Protoss or Zerg. Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about in PvZ timing and we can all move on. You are starting to appear almost as stubborn as game.no. The situation is also different from a 4 hatch power muta build like Savior uses for all-in muta, because mutas can then reach a critical mass. In this case, however, it is the corsairs that will reach their critical mass (and incoming archon) before the 3-hatch mutas and dominate them from there on.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
You are a Terran player with probably little to no experience with either Protoss or Zerg. Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about in PvZ timing and we can all move on. You are starting to appear almost as stubborn as game.no.
i probably played more games pvz than you have even though im a ter player >.< i played random so often... just watch the fucking vod and dont be ignorant...
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot. At 6-8 Corsairs, it becomes very difficult to properly scourge them. At 10+ Corsairs, it's basically impossible to do anything to them with just Zerg lair air units without an overwhelming advantage. Stork was JUST at the cusp of reaching the "unscourgeable" mass. One more Corsair or cannon would've been HUGE. It almost doesn't matter how many mutas Jaedong proportionately adds.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot.
of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys...
also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
You are a Terran player with probably little to no experience with either Protoss or Zerg. Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about in PvZ timing and we can all move on. You are starting to appear almost as stubborn as game.no.
i probably played more games pvz than you have even though im a ter player >.< i played random so often... just watch the fucking vod and dont be ignorant...
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you probably played in the old-school age with 2 gate and such before this exact situation was common. Also PvZ only happens 1/6 games, so don't overestimate your experience. Otherwise, I don't understand how this is so hard to grasp.
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot.
of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys...
also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot.
of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys...
also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
Okay I'm just going to stop posting about this because you clearly are either
a) can't admit when you are wrong or b) are simply too stubborn or ignorant.
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot.
of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys...
also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
That is quite ignorant Do you know that units in SC power increace is not linear, but an exponential increace, lets put it this way 4sairs=16 power 5sairs=25 power
On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
You simply dont understand that the increace in units in SC is an exponential increace and not a linear increace, let me put it to you this way.
24 goons vs 12 goons at the end of the battle all the 12 goons will die ,and from the other side only 3 goons will be lost
2 zeals vs 1zeal At the end of the battle the zeal will die, and one of the other 2 zeals will only lose its shields
Thats why losing your units or sairs is so critical
On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote: man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot.
of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys...
also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
That is quite ignorant Do you know that units in SC power increace is not linear, but an exponential increace, lets put it this way 4sairs=16 power 5sairs=25 power
the thing is it doesnt help if it still isnt enough i think 5 sairs wouldnt have made much of a difference you guys obviously do, but you are wrong just watch the vod... i even read the templrs just come out when the battle finishes... come on dont make the game more beautiful than it really was... it was just an attack that was good, but the timing was not spectacular half a minute later or a minute and the outcome would probably be the same unless he would have built 3 goons it might have helped....
let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
On December 22 2007 21:58 Kaolla wrote: let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
How bout you play some ZvP or PvZ yourself, see the diffrence yourself between having 4 sairs to 6 sairs, youll be quite shocked, but I dont know, maybe Im a horrible SC player.
On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this.
One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one.
If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack).
4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better.
On December 22 2007 21:58 Kaolla wrote: let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
In one minute, he could've easily added 2-3 more cannons to his main (he was fortifying his nat much more heavily for some odd reason) and build nearly 2 more corsairs, not to mention that the archon was also coming. With about 5+ sairs it is really hard to split scourge to effectively target them all without losses in scourge, unless given time to chase them.
He may have been able to fight the battle in place over the cannons (i.e NOT run and give Jaedong time to split his scourge to perfection). If Jaedong tries send muta in first to try to delay and give time to split scourge, the 5 sairs hurt the mutas a LOT and 5-6 cannons >>> heavily damaged mutas. I'm not certain how many mutas he had, but I don't think it was more than 8 or 9.
On December 22 2007 21:58 Kaolla wrote: let me also say that since the scourges would not come from exactly the same direction if he targetted the muta the sairs would still go down, so he had to target scourge, but since they would auto target the muta this would have been a little troublesome and he probably still had to run for a bit which would give time to kill some cannons.. then he probably would have still failed.. he didnt come close to killing any scourge now... 1 sair surely wouldnt have made the difference he needed... if you cannot see that you are just horrible at sc... done...
How bout you play some ZvP or PvZ yourself, see the diffrence yourself between having 4 sairs to 6 sairs, youll be quite shocked, but I dont know, maybe Im a horrible SC player.
ok this is really my last reply... first of all it woulda been 4 or 5, not 4 or 6... second of all i am aware the difference is big... the thing is because of the way JD moves in he has to target either muta or scourge, but because of the things happening targetting the muta would be auto since they fly in first, then he has to manually target scourge, which will probably take a very small ammount of time as well, but he would probably have problems killing them as well with 5 sairs (aka couldnt) then nothing changes he still can choose attack muta and die do a bit mroe dmg but still lose like he did with 4 or attack scourge but dont kill them and let the sairs die without any dmg... last option is fly away to exp save sairs and let main fall without scourges dying... all in all the options would be the same... the thing this is about is just that 5 sairs instead of 4 would have not given him the power to stop this (I think) and thus the timing didnt matter since no other strong anti air thing was coming up anytime soon... obviously you guys think the 5th sair magically woulda saved him, but its probably just to justify the game as being superb instead of being just mediocre (like it was) >.< anyway blah!
On December 22 2007 22:05 StRyKeR wrote: Just for a clarification, the increase is not exponential but QUADRATIC.
A linear increase is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... An exponential increase is 1, 2, 4, 8, 16... And quadratic is of course 1, 4, 9, 16, 25...
Just a clarification. ^^
A Quadratic equation is an exponential equation, I just used ^2 as an example, Quadratic exponential growth seems more accurate than square exponential growth in SC.
Edit: Btw is it that hard to aruge vs a couple of "horrible" Players ?
Koalla is right here. There is nothing spectacular about timing there.4 sair or 5 sair wouldn't make any difference. I dont know why you guys talking about 6-8 sairs here. 4+1=5 no? That's what we call "timing".
On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this.
One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one.
If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack).
4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better.
sob ok you make me respond as well... yea the cannons auto target muta as well tho and even vs smaller numbers stork already couldnt target the scourges so vs larger number he most surely couldnt.... the cannon placement woulda been near his nexus so it would've easily targetted the muta if not ok then he loses some scourges but vs quite some muta the cannons die fast anyway... the sairs now were just running too, i think like i mentioned before the way of flying in made sure his sairs could not target both muta and scourge so it was a choice... where targetting scourge probably wouldnt have helped.... both things are easy wins for the muta scourge i think... maybe we can ask ashur to create a simulation and recreate it exactly including stork and JD AI or sth >_< but i dont believe in a stork win or good timing....
On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this.
One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one.
If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack).
4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better.
sob ok you make me respond as well... yea the cannons auto target muta as well tho and even vs smaller numbers stork already couldnt target the scourges so vs larger number he most surely couldnt.... the cannon placement woulda been near his nexus so it would've easily targetted the muta if not ok then he loses some scourges but vs quite some muta the cannons die fast anyway... the sairs now were just running too, i think like i mentioned before the way of flying in made sure his sairs could not target both muta and scourge so it was a choice... where targetting scourge probably wouldnt have helped.... both things are easy wins for the muta scourge i think... maybe we can ask ashur to create a simulation and recreate it exactly including stork and JD AI or sth >_< but i dont believe in a stork win or good timing....
I'm saying with another cannon and another sair, Stork might not have run away, because it's harder for Jaedong to perfectly scourge a pack of 5 sairs with 5 cannons underneath. Stork might have just stayed and fought, and 5 sairs might have melted a few of the scourge before they killed the sairs, which would have made him win the fight, because he'd have 4 cannons left + 1 or 2 damaged sairs vs a muta pack. With only 4 sairs, Stork ran and his sairs basically did nothing.
On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote: It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote: It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just have to respond to this.
One extra cannon versus Mutas makes a ridiculous difference. It's another location to re-target, another place to move for the Mutas, another damage source that will be firing for the duration of the fight, and another thing for the Mutas to kill that allows everything else to fire for that much longer. It's an EXPONENTIAL increase not a linear one.
If you are a P player, you know there is a HUGE difference with facing mutalisks when having 3 cannons versus 4 cannons, and this is even more important when you are talking about Corsairs vs. scourge or mutas. When the numbers are as low in game 2, another corsair and cannon versus another few mutas is oftentimes the difference between completely annihilating the attacking force and completely losing your nexus. Not to mention an extra cannon may pick off a scourge that is trying to kill a corsair, because it's not targeting the mutas (more cannons = more chance a cannon is out of range and doesn't auto-target the muta stack).
4 sairs/4 cannons vs 12 muta 8 scourge is very, very different from 5 sairs/5 cannons vs 15 muta / 10 scourge. It's much harder to perfectly scourge even one more corsair, and every added sair/cannon exponentially makes the others better.
sob ok you make me respond as well... yea the cannons auto target muta as well tho and even vs smaller numbers stork already couldnt target the scourges so vs larger number he most surely couldnt.... the cannon placement woulda been near his nexus so it would've easily targetted the muta if not ok then he loses some scourges but vs quite some muta the cannons die fast anyway... the sairs now were just running too, i think like i mentioned before the way of flying in made sure his sairs could not target both muta and scourge so it was a choice... where targetting scourge probably wouldnt have helped.... both things are easy wins for the muta scourge i think... maybe we can ask ashur to create a simulation and recreate it exactly including stork and JD AI or sth >_< but i dont believe in a stork win or good timing....
I'm saying with another cannon and another sair, Stork might not have run away, because it's harder for Jaedong to perfectly scourge a pack of 5 sairs with 5 cannons underneath. Stork might have just stayed and fought, and 5 sairs might have melted a few of the scourge before they killed the sairs, which would have made him win the fight, because he'd have 4 cannons left + 1 or 2 damaged sairs vs a muta pack. With only 4 sairs, Stork ran and his sairs basically did nothing.
the thing is that with 5 sairs maybe he woulda killed some but then he had 1 or 2 sairs which you just argued for did nothing because f the quadratic dmg thing... anywya even if he had that the difference was just too big to justify any diffence in outcome i believe... and he was just still too low on sairs... if he had a steadier production of anti air and just 1 sair more i would have believed in it but he had no strong anti air comin up >.<
On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote: It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
0 difference... would still have been too little... even if he killed 2-4 scourge it still woulda been too little and GG
On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote: It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
0 difference... would still have been too little... even if he killed 2-4 scourge it still woulda been too little and GG
Since youre such a great player and we suck Try this out 24 sairs vs 60 Mutas and 20 scrouge Try that scenario out, it may prove some stuff to you.
On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote: It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
0 difference... would still have been too little... even if he killed 2-4 scourge it still woulda been too little and GG
how can you say that another sair would make 0 difference when you just admitted unit increase is exponential? don't hate man, jaedong attacked with that timing for a pretty significant reason. of course he always could have waited for more mutas right? since more sairs and cannons don't make a big difference? and the timing wasn't a big deal? right? he could've waited right?
On December 22 2007 22:13 Ace wrote: It's like you guys have never went OL hunting with sairs and seen how much of a difference one extra sair can do.
well the thing is he managed to do 0 dmg with 4 sairs... with 5 it wouldnt have been much more thts the point... i cant restrain myself T_T
read my above post. with an extra sair and cannon Stork might not have ran. that's the whole point. one extra sair makes a huge difference, the pro's understand this.
0 difference... would still have been too little... even if he killed 2-4 scourge it still woulda been too little and GG
You're missing the point here. It's possible that Stork still would've lost even 1 minute later (he didn't have the best control), but the battle would've been much, much closer and hard to call. That's why it's called a timing attack. A Terran can also move out in a "timing push" against Protoss (e.g. vs fast 3 base), which becomes less effective the longer he waits. Jaedong's attack at that moment in time was far more powerful than it would've been 1 min or more later. It's not just 1-2 more sairs (build time 40 sec, not 60 sec), 2 cannons could've been added as well. Stork had like 6-7 cannons at his nat I think, so he's not afraid to add them although I don't know why he built them there.
i got to talk to stork a bit afterwards, he was PISSSED as hell for losing. looked sooo sad. so glad you guys got to see my TL.net sign - i worked hard to get it on tv
it's 11pm and I just got home from the event - gonna post a blog in the morning i guess. or later tonight. took tons of pics.
On December 22 2007 23:16 lilsusie wrote: <3 <3 i love you guys toooooo~~
i got to talk to stork a bit afterwards, he was PISSSED as hell for losing. looked sooo sad. so glad you guys got to see my TL.net sign - i worked hard to get it on tv
it's 11pm and I just got home from the event - gonna post a blog in the morning i guess. or later tonight. took tons of pics.
look forward to it. congratulations for being on tv!
On December 22 2007 23:16 lilsusie wrote: <3 <3 i love you guys toooooo~~
i got to talk to stork a bit afterwards, he was PISSSED as hell for losing. looked sooo sad. so glad you guys got to see my TL.net sign - i worked hard to get it on tv
it's 11pm and I just got home from the event - gonna post a blog in the morning i guess. or later tonight. took tons of pics.
On December 22 2007 22:15 liosama wrote: can you just say non-linear? how can you quantitively proove if the increase is quadratic of exponential
It's basically like this.
X marine vs. 1 zealot.
Assume the zealot has infinite energy. The zealot will kill the marines one by one. Suppose one marine dies per minute.
What's the damage done at the end?
First minute, there's X marines. Second minute, X-1, and so on.
After all marines are dead, how much damage was done to the zealot? (X + X - 1 + X - 2 + ... ) worth of marine-minutes. That's quadratic in X (it's exactly X(X+1)/2).
It basically means that the more units you have, the more effective each unit becomes. Divide the expression by X, and we see that each unit's individual efficiency linearly increases with the size of the pack.
In other words, a marine among 10 is 5.5 times more effective than a marine by himself.
EDIT: And oh, exponential is NOT the right term. Strictly speaking, exponential increase refers to 2^n or (some base)^n.
Quadratic increase is the term you're looking for, although exponential does sound fitting.
On December 22 2007 22:15 liosama wrote: can you just say non-linear? how can you quantitively proove if the increase is quadratic of exponential
It's basically like this.
X marine vs. 1 zealot.
Assume the zealot has infinite energy. The zealot will kill the marines one by one. Suppose one marine dies per minute.
What's the damage done at the end?
First minute, there's X marines. Second minute, X-1, and so on.
After all marines are dead, how much damage was done to the zealot? (X + X - 1 + X - 2 + ... ) worth of marine-minutes. That's quadratic in X (it's exactly X(X+1)/2).
It basically means that the more units you have, the more effective each unit becomes. Divide the expression by X, and we see that each unit's individual efficiency linearly increases with the size of the pack.
In other words, a marine among 10 is 5.5 times more effective than a marine by himself.
EDIT: And oh, exponential is NOT the right term. Strictly speaking, exponential increase refers to 2^n or (some base)^n.
Quadratic increase is the term you're looking for, although exponential does sound fitting.
Aren't you only considering damage dealt tho? Corsairs are a different situation, because it is a splash based unit (unlike zeal) and survivability vs scourge (and muta) is very important to its effectiveness. I don't think you can put an exact number on how much improvement one corsair gives.
Assume the zealot has infinite energy. The zealot will kill the marines one by one. Suppose one marine dies per minute.
What's the damage done at the end?
First minute, there's X marines. Second minute, X-1, and so on.
After all marines are dead, how much damage was done to the zealot? (X + X - 1 + X - 2 + ... ) worth of marine-minutes. That's quadratic in X (it's exactly X(X+1)/2).
It basically means that the more units you have, the more effective each unit becomes. Divide the expression by X, and we see that each unit's individual efficiency linearly increases with the size of the pack.
[\QUOTE]
your model doesn't really make sense, i don't see how if there are x marines, the damage they deal to a zealot is x? but the problem is your formula doesn't take into account a zealot dying because when the zealot dies they aren't doing any damage.
But i do see where you are coming from, even though you're not taking into account micro and such I think figuring out the relationship is a tad more complex than that, I couldn't be bothered figuring it out.
On December 22 2007 20:22 Last Romantic wrote: JAEDONG HUGS HIS MOTHER AWW SUCH A GOOD SON
he's crying
she's crying
everyone melts
Jaedong's father?
some cerebrate or the Overmind himself he just brought zvp to another level, his hands are so fast that he's capable of pulling such micro while maintaining macro at sAviOr's level
my favorite part has to be in game 3 where the corsairs try to pick off one lone lord near the top right of the map, and the lord lures the corsairs away from the island... then one huge drop comes in and owns the island expo. when that happened all i was thinking was, "FUCK YEAH!" lol
Looks the like the PvZ revolution is just Bisu. Stork's corsair harass was ineffective and the defensive forge build allowed jaedong to whorcro 3 bases off the bat. All in all a good series, but I expected better of Stork.
On December 23 2007 03:05 kjk wrote: 3 zerg players, MJY, GGplay, and jaedong. next ? kwanro
Wait what? The next Zergmachine will be Firefist.
You heard it here first!
na its gonna be a KTF zerg.
where can i find vods to dl? I can't find it on Daum player, its not on vod tracker until tomorrow and Small vod doesn't have it. I'm watching on youtube but I like to watch final matches in hq.
On December 23 2007 03:05 kjk wrote: 3 zerg players, MJY, GGplay, and jaedong. next ? kwanro
Wait what? The next Zergmachine will be Firefist.
You heard it here first!
na its gonna be a KTF zerg.
where can i find vods to dl? I can't find it on Daum player, its not on vod tracker until tomorrow and Small vod doesn't have it. I'm watching on youtube but I like to watch final matches in hq.
I'm so happy. He owned games 2-4!!!! I watched them on Youtube so I missed pre game and post game stuff. Lilsusie was cute with her TL sign! JD and Stork crying was emotional =( And who was that girl beside JD's mom? His girlfriend? And another thing, there's always this one pretty good looking girl at Jaedong's games, I read in Youtube comments she's an actress and Lecaf's Coach's girlfriend. Anyone want to confirm this? Finally.........anyone have a pic of Jaedong's booth girl? Yes, I'm a dirty perv.
Go Dirty Perv Zerg! I shall be next great Zerg!...........Not XD
I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
greatest is a bit of a stretch there. he's good, but still unproven, at least in my eyes.
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
I don't know about greatest, but he sure as hell is good, and he is fucking fast.
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
Jaedong's ZvP was supposed to be horrid compared to the stronger protoss players, like Stork. That's why many of us are going crazy. Jaedong was the underdog here.
Well, his other 2 matchups were already top notch, and at the very least he proved that his ZvP isn't weak anymore. I'm not sure if it's better than sAviOr's, but I was very impressed that he went fast pool into heavy macro. It's safe to say that he has better micro, but only time will tell if he really is special, or just another GGPlay.
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
Jaedong's ZvP was supposed to be horrid compared to the stronger protoss players, like Stork. That's why many of us are going crazy. Jaedong was the underdog here.
especially considering jaedong has lost a BO5 vs rock not too long ago
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
Jaedong's ZvP was supposed to be horrid compared to the stronger protoss players, like Stork. That's why many of us are going crazy. Jaedong was the underdog here.
especially considering jaedong has lost a BO5 vs rock not too long ago
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
Jaedong's ZvP was supposed to be horrid compared to the stronger protoss players, like Stork. That's why many of us are going crazy. Jaedong was the underdog here.
especially considering jaedong has lost a BO5 vs rock not too long ago
On December 23 2007 07:18 Jibba wrote: Well, his other 2 matchups were already top notch, and at the very least he proved that his ZvP isn't weak anymore. I'm not sure if it's better than sAviOr's, but I was very impressed that he went fast pool into heavy macro. It's safe to say that he has better micro, but only time will tell if he really is special, or just another GGPlay.
Savior needs to take lessons from Jaedong about zvp.
I haven't seen Savior use Sauron / Macro zerg is a long long time is Sauron / Macro zerg is incredibly efficient vs protoss.
On December 23 2007 07:18 Jibba wrote: Well, his other 2 matchups were already top notch, and at the very least he proved that his ZvP isn't weak anymore. I'm not sure if it's better than sAviOr's, but I was very impressed that he went fast pool into heavy macro. It's safe to say that he has better micro, but only time will tell if he really is special, or just another GGPlay.
His other 2 matchups are "top notch"? I think they are better than top notch.
By the way, his protoss match-up statistic has improved to 19-17 after last night. I don't think GGplay ever came close to these statistics any time in his career. Jaedong has only played just over 100 games that count based on these statistics. However, if he continues in this way for his next 100 games, he will be arguably the greatest ever.
Yes I do like my statistics. They are a good reflection mostly. I don't know how many of you follow cricket, but if you do, you'd understand.
On December 23 2007 05:51 TheTyranid wrote: WALKED IT EEEEZ!!
Z wins 3 OSL in a row this year! 60% of all OSL won this year for Z.
FUCK the Protoss revolution! 2007 is the year of ZERG!
ZERG!!@#!@#!@#$@#$
I've been waiting for a year like this for 4 years.
Fuck Terrans, Fuck Protoss.
It's time for Zergs to dominate.
eh..I'd say it started last year with savior.
This whole "protoss" domination thing has been overly put out. We have seen an impeccable PvZ take a shocking win, and the first PvP MSL final...but in no way was Bisu/Stork ever in a perfect domineering position. I see this as, a few protoss have finally leveled up to the champion's podium, that they are capable of standing against the new era of terran/zergs when it seemed there would be no dreamer, hero or spirit could rise against indefinite odds. But considering the slew of alot of great players from terran/zerg, they sheerly outnumber the great new protoss and only time will tell if they can still hold the test of time against newer and newer styles.
But other than that..Jaedong played amazing, he really stepped up his game today..wow
Uh... I don't know people are talking about Stork like his PvZ is great... it isn't. He was lucky enough to dodge Savior but he couldn't beat Jaedong either. Okay, he can beat up a slumping July and every other third rate Zerg, good for him. The Protoss revolution isn't quite simply- it's the Bisu Revolution.
Wow, after watching the games, I can see the basis behind Jaedong being hyped as one of the greatest players of all time. He always had a scourge ready to kill obs, his storm dodging was superb (in game 4 he split his lings against storm so well i had to rewind and see it again), his multitasking is inhuman, and he has so much passion for the game. Lee Jae Dong is going places
Bit of a sidenote: why does Jaedong have a loss against UpMagic in his TLPD entry (in this OSL)? He 3-0ed him and they weren't in the same group. And the date is for the Lecaf/eSTRO match but uh... Lecaf 3-0ed eSTRO and they never played. :S
On December 23 2007 13:35 SigrUn wrote: Which video can you find Jaedong's "hot booth girl" in? I've watched all the games but I don't recall seeing her. <_<
I don't think I've ever learned more on how to improve my game and play BW better from a VOD than games 3 and 4. That was pretty awesome, Jaedong is my new hero
On December 23 2007 07:18 Jibba wrote: Well, his other 2 matchups were already top notch, and at the very least he proved that his ZvP isn't weak anymore. I'm not sure if it's better than sAviOr's, but I was very impressed that he went fast pool into heavy macro. It's safe to say that he has better micro, but only time will tell if he really is special, or just another GGPlay.
Savior needs to take lessons from Jaedong about zvp.
I haven't seen Savior use Sauron / Macro zerg is a long long time is Sauron / Macro zerg is incredibly efficient vs protoss.
no he doesn't. Savior still has the best ZvP on the pro scene by miles.
Umm... Savior ROLLS over any Toss not named Bisu, considering people get /worried/ about Jaedong vs Stork, I'm not sure how people can keep making comparisons between the two. Yeah Jaedong is hot for Royal Roading, but seriously ...
On December 23 2007 03:05 kjk wrote: 3 zerg players, MJY, GGplay, and jaedong. next ? kwanro
Wait what? The next Zergmachine will be Firefist.
You heard it here first!
I predict Sea.Jy. I also think he's the real Savior's protegee, not Kwanro. The latter is too unstable.
On the muta/scourge vs sair thing. It's not even in the sair number but in cannon number.
3 cannons are usually enough to fend off any kind of pura muta with splash support (sair/archon/storm).
Both scenarios:
Muta/scourge engage corsair. Suppose zerg's got good micro, then he engages in a way that sair AI targets mutas. It's very hard to target scourge since muta is attacking and scouge is not, so attack priorities are totally different. Sairs start to run.
After that engagement, sairs are flying around and mutas are (abit wounded) fighting with the cannons.
Scenario 1:
Wounded mutas manage to deal with the cannons, sairs die. Toss is basically dead.
Scenario 2:
Wounded mutas can't deal with the cannons, fly away, scourge dies to cannons. Zerg lost unbelievable amounts of gas while toss lost a neglible amount of minerals and NO gas at all.
And cannons do indeed follow a non-linear attack strength pattern vs muta just due to the fact that mutas have trouble switching targets. They are also much cheaper. 3,4,5 cannons pose a huge difference. What is also important is that Stork screwed up the initial handling of the attack, allowing mutas to freely kill the first cannon. It was misplaced anyway, imo, seeing spire, Stork should've added a link cannon from this one to his nexus. Subtle things decide PvZ and Stork doesn't know them apparently.
When sairs are 5+, with proper grouping they are immune to scourge coming from one direction. But not to muta/scourge, once again, because of the AI. The true critical mass comes at around 10-12, when they are able to kill muta fast enough to be able to switch to scourge before the little buggers reach them. The bad thing for the zerg is that maintaining muta/scourge at higher numbers is a real bitch (and it's very difficult to clone scourge) and it costs SO much gas that it's 100% do or die. Jaedong's timing and execution was perfect, I really want him to meet Bisu.
I mean, he was not really that expected to win those series (but, as always, the select few including me just knew better), but look at him now - he's the unrivaled master of both ZvZ and ZvT and he just proved that he can have a stellar ZvP as well. Basically, killing Bisu is the only thing he needs to do at this moment to claim his standing as the official powerouse of progaming.
Stork, on the other hand, doesn't qualify for that. He hasn't shown good PvZ exactly anywhere while Bisu had killed a lot of terrans lately. What worries me about Stork's play is not his control and execution, he was dominated, he didn't really fail at executing his gameplan, he didn't have a winning gameplan at the first place. Imo.
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
Jaedong's ZvP was supposed to be horrid compared to the stronger protoss players, like Stork. That's why many of us are going crazy. Jaedong was the underdog here.
especially considering jaedong has lost a BO5 vs rock not too long ago
On December 23 2007 07:01 ssj100 wrote: I don't understand why people even expected Stork to win. Jaedong is probably the greatest player we might ever see. His girlfriend and his value of other things in life might hinder his results though.
I think people are starting to forget how unstoppable and "HOLY SHIT MAPHAX" savior used to be in 2006. GO WATCH THE VODS
On December 23 2007 07:18 Jibba wrote: Well, his other 2 matchups were already top notch, and at the very least he proved that his ZvP isn't weak anymore. I'm not sure if it's better than sAviOr's, but I was very impressed that he went fast pool into heavy macro. It's safe to say that he has better micro, but only time will tell if he really is special, or just another GGPlay.
Savior needs to take lessons from Jaedong about zvp.
I haven't seen Savior use Sauron / Macro zerg is a long long time is Sauron / Macro zerg is incredibly efficient vs protoss.
savior mass mutas, mass expand is an example imo of sauron. though I can never pull it off on b.net
Game 1 was bleh, game 2 WTF? game 3 That is many hydra yes? game 4 Is this Savior playing?
Im sorry, but Stork looked absolutely helpless the games he lost, and the one he won was Jaedong losing not Stork winning. The "harass" failed miserably. Its strange that the gap between Storks PvP/PvT and his PvZ can be so big. I think Jaedong showed very nice play the last two games, and I loved his burrows all over in game 3.
Pretty bad final games overall, onesided as hell, but Jaedong surely is a deserving champion, and also an incredible good player.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6995/bannernc2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://image.fighterforum.com/MAIN/2007/12/FFMAIN20071221153453001.JPG)
Jaedong vs 
Stork
then it wont start... 
Lee Jae Dong 
![[image loading]](http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5877/jaedongf1mg6.jpg)
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! 
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![[image loading]](http://pic3.ohpy.com/up/elbbs/2007/12/23/80763/332434410/mid_ever_finals.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i18.tinypic.com/4y7z8ex.jpg)
