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On December 22 2007 20:58 Last Romantic wrote:
After seeing that game 3 by Jaedong and comparing it with game 3 by Bisu against sAviOr, I would like to see them play against each other on Fantasy.
IMO, one of the differences between the two games is that both Savior and Bisu played more aggressively in their game, while both Stork and Jaedong played passively (giving Zerg free map control). Bisu also had about 3-4 SICK storm drops (killed ~20 drones), while Stork got only 3 drones with his reaver and also lost a shuttle stupidly to scourge (Bisu was much more careful with his to keep it with sairs). Bisu expanded faster and more frequently, and secured his island better (at least double the amount of cannons). Jaedong also built more lurkers in mid-game which possibly stalled the push better, but his ridiculous economy allowed this.
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On December 22 2007 21:03 GTR-2-Go wrote:
I have no idea why my post about Reach was funny :>
it captured the state of bewilderment of everybody's mind at the time
"Stah-gai-tuh?"
reach was actually ahead until he did that
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On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro
timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals...
all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
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As far as finals go, I thought the series was rather lacking. Jaedong won convincingly and deserved his win, but the games didn't have much flair. The "perfect timing" in game 2 was more from Stork's incorrect judgment, for if he saw the late third and lack of hydra den he should've been far more prepared for the muta. Game 3 had great defense by Jaedong, but made for an uninteresting game when he just walked over Stork. Game 4 was like a typical blue storm game in proleague, with loads of lurks taking advantage of the trench and even more lings tearing apart a mostly goon army.
Overall I'm most disappointed in Stork for playing so uninspired. Nothing in this series even comes half as close to the finals we've had earlier this year, be it the epic game-changing stasis in Bisu v Stork, the tense down-to-the-wire beauty that was GGPlay v Iris, or the shocking revolution of PvZ when the invincible Maestro got 0-3'd. Props to Jaedong for his victory, but as a spectator, I can't help but wish for a little more from both players.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
I don't know how else to put this, but you are just wrong.
4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack.
It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 22 2007 21:15 Silverflame wrote:
As far as finals go, I thought the series was rather lacking. Jaedong won convincingly and deserved his win, but the games didn't have much flair. The "perfect timing" in game 2 was more from Stork's incorrect judgment, for if he saw the late third and lack of hydra den he should've been far more prepared for the muta. Game 3 had great defense by Jaedong, but made for an uninteresting game when he just walked over Stork. Game 4 was like a typical blue storm game in proleague, with loads of lurks taking advantage of the trench and even more lings tearing apart a mostly goon army.
Overall I'm most disappointed in Stork for playing so uninspired. Nothing in this series even comes half as close to the finals we've had earlier this year, be it the epic game-changing stasis in Bisu v Stork, the tense down-to-the-wire beauty that was GGPlay v Iris, or the shocking revolution of PvZ when the invincible Maestro got 0-3'd. Props to Jaedong for his victory, but as a spectator, I can't help but wish for a little more from both players.
The game 2 muta attack was just perfectly executed and perfectly timed by Jaedong, I really don't see how much more prepared you can be than having 4 cannons and 4 corsairs. That's about as safe as it gets.
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Melbourne5338 Posts
On December 21 2007 17:47 Hot_Bid wrote:
if jaedong wins i'm 100% writing an article about him
yay! article about jaedong!
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On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas.
the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
oh and the execution was good, yes i couldnt have done that so well... but even clon woulda managed to do that... not that special...
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On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard...
You are a Terran player with probably little to no experience with either Protoss or Zerg. Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about in PvZ timing and we can all move on. You are starting to appear almost as stubborn as game.no. The situation is also different from a 4 hatch power muta build like Savior uses for all-in muta, because mutas can then reach a critical mass. In this case, however, it is the corsairs that will reach their critical mass (and incoming archon) before the 3-hatch mutas and dominate them from there on.
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On December 22 2007 21:38 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... You are a Terran player with probably little to no experience with either Protoss or Zerg. Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about in PvZ timing and we can all move on. You are starting to appear almost as stubborn as game.no.
i probably played more games pvz than you have even though im a ter player >.<
i played random so often... just watch the fucking vod and dont be ignorant...
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 22 2007 21:38 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas. the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_<
If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs.
Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference.
I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot. At 6-8 Corsairs, it becomes very difficult to properly scourge them. At 10+ Corsairs, it's basically impossible to do anything to them with just Zerg lair air units without an overwhelming advantage. Stork was JUST at the cusp of reaching the "unscourgeable" mass. One more Corsair or cannon would've been HUGE. It almost doesn't matter how many mutas Jaedong proportionately adds.
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On December 22 2007 21:43 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:38 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas. the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_< If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs. Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference. I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot.
of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys...
also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
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On December 22 2007 21:41 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:38 teamsolid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... You are a Terran player with probably little to no experience with either Protoss or Zerg. Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about in PvZ timing and we can all move on. You are starting to appear almost as stubborn as game.no. i probably played more games pvz than you have even though im a ter player >.< i played random so often... just watch the fucking vod and dont be ignorant...
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you probably played in the old-school age with 2 gate and such before this exact situation was common. Also PvZ only happens 1/6 games, so don't overestimate your experience. Otherwise, I don't understand how this is so hard to grasp.
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Braavos36401 Posts
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
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On December 22 2007 21:46 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:38 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas. the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_< If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs. Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference. I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot. of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys... also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 22 2007 21:46 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:38 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas. the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_< If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs. Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference. I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot. of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys... also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
Okay I'm just going to stop posting about this because you clearly are either
a) can't admit when you are wrong or
b) are simply too stubborn or ignorant.
It's not that difficult a concept to understand.
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On December 22 2007 21:46 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:38 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 21:27 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2007 21:13 Kaolla wrote:On December 22 2007 20:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
man, the muta attack timing was so perfect game 2, even just 30 seconds later and stork would've held easily
games 3 and 4 were amazing, it's like jaedong learned to play right before our eyes
big, management, macro oriented games, jaedong stood up to stork in what was supposed to be stork's advantage
with of course, his own little twists, the obs scourging and defiler use
if you removed the IDs from the Zerg player in game 3 and 4, you would think you were watching Savior with better micro timing wasnt that important in game 2... it was just ownage... now dont say if he was later he would had this and that jeadong woulda had more too and the archon woulda been way too late either way maybe 1 sair more and 1 cannon wouldnt have helped shit vs 3 more muta for zerg (just an estimate)... really you guys overhype these finals... all games were just on par (nothing above avg seen) and stork just sucked too hard... I don't know how to put this, but you are just wrong. 4 sairs are JUST below the critical number you need to engage scourges and mutas. It's a cumulative effect. Once they reach a certain mass, like 6-8, you can't scourge them without most of the scourge dying before they hit. Each corsair or cannon past the amount Stork had greatly increases the effectiveness of the others, because they can all fire for that much longer. It's a HUGE difference against units that stack. It's so important that many people in this thread, the Korean announcers, and anyone else who understands PvZ in this situation would recognize that had Jaedong attacked 30 seconds later, the attack probably would have failed horribly. It doesn't matter that he may have had X more mutas, because the effect of adding 1 more corsair or cannon to the defending force is proportionately much greater than adding the same ratio of mutas. the korean announcers are just hyping as well.. they can hardly say it sucks what hes doing but hes lucky stork messes up... of course the comeback was nice but the thing is that it was stork's fault, not a great attack by jeadong... and you tought i never played bw??? the thing is that if scourges come from different direction sair does nothing against them as they were going after muta anyway... that was the problem he was having already.. 1 more cannon and sair would have made 0 difference... JD woulda had more units too and it would just be a trade off... he wouldnt have had enough sairs to just own it up... this is just overhyping the game... it isnt worth that much and it was just a mediocre game... just watch the vod when its released >_< If you have 2x the number of scourges as there are enemy Corsairs, every extra Corsair added makes it harder to scourge a bunch of Corsairs. 8 scourge vs 4 corsairs is much, much easier than 12 scourge vs 6 corsairs. Stork ran his Corsairs instead of engaging the scourge because he didn't have critical mass. Critical mass is RIGHT around 6 Corsairs, so an extra cannon and extra Corsair would have made a huge difference. I'm surprised you still don't understand this, it should obvious to anyone who has played ZvP or PvZ a lot. of course its much easier but he had scourge left if i remember correct after scourging the sairs so he had enough also 4+1 = 5, not 6.... and quit the obvious thing its getting old and i probably played more pvz and zvp than most of you guys... also note that the sairs were probably not in perfect position ... cant remember exactly now...
That is quite ignorant
Do you know that units in SC power increace is not linear, but an exponential increace,
lets put it this way
4sairs=16 power
5sairs=25 power
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On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass.
i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute...
yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
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On December 22 2007 21:53 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2007 21:48 Hot_Bid wrote:
One of the strengths Bisu has over the other P's is that his early Corsairs harass but don't die. At numbers below 5-6, Corsairs are vulnerable to mutas and scourge. Bisu manages his 1-4 Corsair count very well, and does damage with them but doesn't lose them so he reaches critical mass faster. Other P's lose them and never get enough to get a critical mass. i admit there is a small chance im wrong, but the battle was not exactly close nor do i think 1 sair would have made any difference (the cannon is neglectible since it would be traded off for at least 1 muta) ... of course i know sair at some point are very very strong but i think at 5 sairs it would have fallen just as easily and it wouldnt have made much of a difference... if it woulda been super close stork wouldnt have retreated his sairs... i think that 1 extra sair makes little difference... maybe if he had 6-8 like you said it woulda been easy but that takes minutes to get 2-4 extra... that is not 30 seconds nor 1 minute... yea then it woulda been easy... thing is the timing was not super spectacular and it was not the super timing that we have seen in other games such as bisu vs savior where he stormed the lurker eggs and such, now that was real spectacular... (i think it was bisu vs sav)....
You simply dont understand that the increace in units in SC is an exponential increace and not a linear increace, let me put it to you this way.
24 goons vs 12 goons
at the end of the battle all the 12 goons will die ,and from the other side only 3 goons will be lost
2 zeals vs 1zeal
At the end of the battle the zeal will die, and one of the other 2 zeals will only lose its shields
Thats why losing your units or sairs is so critical
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EPT
