EPT
[ASL19] Grand Finals
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
Hoping for good games either way  | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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maybe
249 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
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pseudosignal
1 Post
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10341 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
ᄃᅠᄌᅠᄋᅠ화이팅!! + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/93B5U18.png) | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10106 Posts
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ScarletAerie
40 Posts
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prototype.
Canada4200 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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prosatan
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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Monochromatic
United States997 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:04 Monochromatic wrote: This is my first time watching a BW final live. I'm happy whoever wins. Nice dude congrats! | ||
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
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Mochi0415
1 Post
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
also where are the kpop dancers | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
Hope they'll only be getting bigger and bigger venues | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:23 seRapH wrote: Soulkey never got an ASL silver? Best going to give him that honor. Thats a good point! Win-win for everyone. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
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gravity
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prosatan
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
please make a red archon | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
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prosatan
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prosatan
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
Damn, we lost the Nexus. I'm afraid only Jangbi can win from here | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
God I have a bad feeling about this series >< | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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alypse
2771 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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Monochromatic
United States997 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
120 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:41 Monochromatic wrote: I really hope the rest of the games don't look like that one. It's all part of watching live lol. Best should just forget about game 1 and execute his plan to win as best as he can. | ||
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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SCRVN
63 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:44 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: I almost missed this. Great that the starcraft subreddit actively suppresses content related to broodwar. There is also an r/broodwar you can follow | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:48 QRCode wrote: Weird build by Best. Citadel first really only works on 4P maps when Zerg can't get an overlord into main on first scout. Even more confusing, he did make a goon I think to stop the overlord in the main but the timing was just not there. Hopefully this was a fluke or something or this will be a quick series... agree 100% ! | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:46 NovaTheFeared wrote: Best just went for a build that auto-folds to 5 muta. Not untrue, but making goons without range with that simcity is just the worst. He either shoulda commited fully to zealot/archon or goon/ht in that scenario imo. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
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Peeano
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prosatan
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Peeano
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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polgas
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seRapH
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Peeano
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seRapH
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
edit: I guess SoulKey had enough of that one though... | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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alypse
2771 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:04 prosatan wrote: best was ahead but that gg was a bit premature imo its a long series and now we have a fight. | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:04 alypse wrote: Jesus goons with range feels like a different unit. they really are ! Goons without range step on mines even with an observer near them !! it drives me crazyyyyy | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
Correct !!!!! | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
Reset time. First epic game incoming? | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10106 Posts
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prototype.
Canada4200 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:04 prosatan wrote: best was ahead but that gg was a bit premature imo From a viewer's perspective, it would have been nice to see more of the game even if a player was extremely behind. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:06 VioleTAK wrote: OK!!! Reset time. First epic game incoming? it is on death valley ?? | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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Simplistik
1998 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
Oh shit it's DV... I'm curious what Best has planned for this one. | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:07 TMNT wrote: Why did Soulkey play like that and why didn't he play like that against Snow? Almost never seen an all in Hydra bust attempt that doesn't even kill a cannon lol. He was counting on Best overbuilding cannons, skipping tech etc.. A bust that doesn't come through is not end of the game.. Best did all the right things though, SK was too far behind... Good win for Best, I feel like he needs two wins to get the nerves out and then just play at his normal level up until match point (if he gets there) where emotions will come back in a fury. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Peeano
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:14 Peeano wrote: SK often tries to get away with not droning to hit timings to force trades in his favor so he tech/macro explode right after. Good to see it being shut down. EXACTLY! He reminds me of how superGMs in chess manage to gain advantage vs 'regular' highlevelGMs with tiny tricks, and it's magic to see them unable to pull it now and then when a regular GM has a moment of brilliance. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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seRapH
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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prosatan
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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Simplistik
1998 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
120 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
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prototype.
Canada4200 Posts
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
No tilting in the finals! Get up, even the scales. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:29 VioleTAK wrote: Shaking your head as game4 begins.. stop it Best! No tilting in the finals! Get up, even the scales. This. | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
zealots buy a bit of time tho | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
A few guardians would be nice from SK here. Oh, nice maelstrom on the mutas! | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:41 Peeano wrote: Best still the undisputed macro king if you don't touch his probes. +1 Peeano !! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:42 prosatan wrote: guys do you have a feeling there are fewer viewers than usually ??? No way. Definitely more than usual, or do you mean foreigners? | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
but best can use feedback on him haha | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:43 Peeano wrote: No way. Definitely more than usual, or do you mean foreigners? 16k on official stream and 15k and 10 k on Calm and Rain.... yes , i think you are right!! Sea and Jd with many viewers also !! | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
not all in vs all in | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
Keeps countering and outmanoeuvring SK | ||
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prototype.
Canada4200 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
GG !!! 2-2 !!!! | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:46 Vasoline73 wrote: Nice! Best at least not choking. 2-2 don't jinx it. | ||
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:47 angry_maia wrote: have they both just been winning each others maps? hahaha thats right !! | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:47 angry_maia wrote: have they both just been winning each others maps? lol true! | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:47 Peeano wrote: I can't believe the build didn't get punished much harder by mutas, but that's on SK. Best played soo safe, that's why his supply looked terrible most of the game. Which is good, Soulkey is low-key an insanely aggressive player. So the strat, as opposed to that Death valley was good this time. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:47 angry_maia wrote: Its been happening a lot this ASLhave they both just been winning each others maps? | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:46 prosatan wrote: this is the type of game Best needs ! Long , macro , back and forth game!! not all in vs all in Yeah, if Best gets to macro freely, you need by.hero amount of drones to break even. It's not SK's strength. Best can do this. Just 2 more wins. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:47 Peeano wrote: I can't believe the build didn't get punished much harder by mutas, but that's on SK. Best built 4 cannons in the main so can't be punished by Muta probably. But Soulkey still got the game before Best pushed his 4th. Was on equal supply. Best turned the game the moment he got that flank . In hindsight Soulkey making his 4th at bottom left was the move that lost him the game. Had he taken it at 12 we would have had a late macro game and he would have won. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:51 BLinD-RawR wrote: lets see if this still works  | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:51 BLinD-RawR wrote: yes, yes it does.  DOHMEN !! | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
Soulkey was on life support with 1 Hatch in main and less than 10 drones. If Best just put 1 cannon by the mineral.... | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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spets1
55 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:49 oxKnu wrote: Best played soo safe, that's why his supply looked terrible most of the game. Which is good, Soulkey is low-key an insanely aggressive player. So the strat, as opposed to that Death valley was good this time. He shoulda harassed waaay harder during the window when neither maelstrom and storm were ready. He just had to simcity and park his lings. He made mutas and then wasted his window by scouting and chasing zealots. It's bad on SK. Basically not using his early mutas aggressively, which always sucks unless you are getting 1 base all inned. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:54 BLinD-RawR wrote: if anyone can find me the original Doh-men image I could use that too Somewhere in Nada's Body thread I imagine, but I´m not scrolling that thread of dead images. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:57 Peeano wrote: Somewhere in Nada's Body thread I imagine, but I´m not scrolling that thread of dead images. I will do it right now !! | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:58 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: For a second there i thought tlnet got hacked lmao no just plain admin abuse, not doing that unless BeSt wins again. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:55 Peeano wrote: The problem is if he is aggressive with the muta's and the DA came out 10-20 seconds earlier he eats a maelstrom and loses all the muta's for no compensation.He shoulda harassed waaay harder during the window when neither maelstrom and storm were ready. He just had to simcity and park his lings. He made mutas and then wasted his window by scouting and chasing zealots. It's bad on SK. Basically not using his early mutas aggressively, which always sucks unless you are getting 1 base all inned. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
edit: no huge damage luckily | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:00 prosatan wrote: aaaa .. on nada s body i only see image loading] image loading] image loading] with NO actual image,,, Don´t miss the show, dude! Nevermind that thread. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:03 Peeano wrote: Don´t miss the show, dude! Nevermind that thread. you are right haha!! scrolling through nada s body when it 's ASL final hahaha | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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seRapH
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
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prosatan
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
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seRapH
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Vasoline73
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Peeano
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: the effective defense being a hero DT that saved the day? :pcan't believe it took this long but we finally got effective bust defense from protoss. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:09 Gorsameth wrote: the effective defense being a hero DT that saved the day? :p I meant in general but yeah lol | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
Best is taking his 3rd right now | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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Vasoline73
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prosatan
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gravity
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prosatan
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Vasoline73
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BLinD-RawR
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Gorsameth
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
but i still feel he is a bit ahead... | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
damn this is the defense of shakuras | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:15 Vasoline73 wrote: I think Best has it this is far from over and SK still feels ahead | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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alypse
2771 Posts
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polgas
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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seRapH
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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prosatan
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
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Peeano
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polgas
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BLinD-RawR
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
sk is going hive at last | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:19 polgas wrote: SK probably waiting to snipe that nexus again. can't afford to throw units because he had to secure his expos, best got a chance to expand for it | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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On May 25 2025 16:22 BLinD-RawR wrote: yeah its just lurker ling defiler gotta get them archons and reavers Never realized how terrible these maps are for Protoss, this one in particular needs more static defense than Sparta.. | ||
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DOHMEN | ||
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On May 25 2025 16:31 Peeano wrote: Colour me impressed. That felt like what Snow was aiming for done better. I think Snow's army control was better when he won here against SK. | ||
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TMNT
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BLinD-RawR
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On May 25 2025 16:30 FlaShFTW wrote: Best thew a bit but played the mid to late game immaculately. This is some of the best protoss army control I've ever seen in this matchup. I think expecting the perfect game in this environment absurd, but to ensure that you can cover for your own mistakes is what makes a great player. | ||
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Giovanni8
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On May 25 2025 16:31 foxmeep wrote: Where plague and hydras I think ling lurk defiler was fine for SK but every backstab and counterpush he could have done got caught by Best's army just moving around. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
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On May 25 2025 16:32 TMNT wrote: Best put himself to a similar position as Snow last time. Maybe he'll pull a risky build this time instead of Snow's extra safe play in game 6. Watch Best do what Motive did vs Rush and attempt to build a gate and cannons behind soulkey's main :^) | ||
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DropBear
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VioleTAK
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My eyes are still blinded by those beautiful archons! LETS GO! Matchpoint! Win one of two! | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:31 Peeano wrote: Colour me impressed. That felt like what Snow was aiming for done better. Snow was miles better. He didn't have the huge lead Best had in this game, but prevented Zerg from getting both Hive and 4th base. The game ended with Snow on 4 bases and Soulkey starving on 3 bases. Best let Zerg get into Defiler and equal supply, but I feel like Soulkey thought he was much further behind than he actually was. And I guess he never really recovered from the mid game deficit. | ||
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prosatan
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On May 25 2025 16:32 Giovanni8 wrote: The last 2 games by Best should be in the "Modern manual of PvZ". Even if he losses this serie, Best Is the new Revolutionist. haha i like this so much! "Modern manual of PvZ" | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:34 BLinD-RawR wrote: I think ling lurk defiler was fine for SK but every backstab and counterpush he could have done got caught by Best's army just moving around. Felt like he would chuck down swarm and then just got stormed under it for almost zero damage. And his lings were only +1, he built 7000 of them and they did fk all lol | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:36 TMNT wrote: Snow was miles better. He didn't have the huge lead Best had in this game, but prevented Zerg from getting both Hive and 4th base. The game ended with Snow on 4 bases and Soulkey starving on 3 bases. Best let Zerg get into Defiler and equal supply, but I feel like Soulkey thought he was much further behind than he actually was. And I guess he never really recovered from the mid game deficit. Yeah tbf SK was behind a lot going into late game | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
Not that I mind of course :D Let's gooooooo Best! | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
On May 25 2025 16:34 BLinD-RawR wrote: Bests army control has been so good these last 2 games, outside of the start of the last game where SK managed to pull Best apart and snipe a lot of templars.I think ling lurk defiler was fine for SK but every backstab and counterpush he could have done got caught by Best's army just moving around. | ||
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seRapH
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angry_maia
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On May 25 2025 16:41 angry_maia wrote: wait is best just dead not even sort of. | ||
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Peeano
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prosatan
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On May 25 2025 16:41 angry_maia wrote: wait is best just dead noooo !! | ||
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gravity
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Peeano
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This time SK fully droned and is getting 4th up. Let's see how Best can fare this time. | ||
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should've done that in his previous games | ||
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Viejo1
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BLinD-RawR
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DTS DTS | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
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seRapH
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
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FEEDBACK | ||
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On May 25 2025 16:59 Peeano wrote: Would love to see 2 mind controls here on lurkers to deny swarm ling on expos fun fact about mind control, it also turns the DA's shields to 0 | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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On May 25 2025 17:00 Zergxhx wrote: Why does Dark Archon kill 1 feedback | ||
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prosatan
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prosatan
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On May 25 2025 17:00 Zergxhx wrote: Why does Dark Archon kill 1 or the dts which merged had previous kills | ||
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gravity
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BLinD-RawR
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On May 25 2025 17:01 gravity wrote: Gotta be one of the most DA-heavy pro games ever. DA has been in meta for a while now especially with Best | ||
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RIBOOOOOO | ||
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:thinking: | ||
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VioleTAK
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If you tilt you'll regret it for the rest of your life. Play with a clear mind, focus, give it your all. You got this. Your moment is now. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
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It's time to play the best game you've ever played, Best! Think of those times you crushed Flash when no one else could touch him. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
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On May 25 2025 17:18 prosatan wrote: best dont do smth stupid! hope cannons will be up in time....... Best's strength is still macro, but SK should know by now to not go too aggro. And so far SK is droning. Knowing the average PvZ this will be epic if Best gets any lead and rides to victory. | ||
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Incomplete..ReV
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On May 25 2025 17:20 BLinD-RawR wrote: so nervous for best man. Same. Almost can't watch. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
Best please! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:22 alypse wrote: @BR Is it true that Flash will return next season? most likely yes. | ||
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prosatan
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On May 25 2025 17:22 alypse wrote: @BR Is it true that Flash will return next season? Flash , effort and soma also | ||
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
Best has a chance at taking this! | ||
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prosatan
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On May 25 2025 17:26 Peeano wrote: Gatewayman getting his signature DA again. but he needs to STOP losing zealots for free !! | ||
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prosatan
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i am sad | ||
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Sorusaba
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gravity
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alypse
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Croatia155 Posts
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prosatan
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On May 25 2025 17:30 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: wtf did he forget to cancel yes but what went so wrong ?!?! | ||
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Giovanni8
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FlaShFTW
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prosatan
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4 ASLS back to back... | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
Congrats SK I guess... 😔 | ||
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prototype.
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
Congrats to SoulKey on the 4-peat. | ||
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prosatan
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polgas
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21558 Posts
Very happy we got an amazing final Best ASL I can remember. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7795 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
Bonjwa? | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
Mini is/was right all along.. P.S: I hope Best's mental game improves going forward and this season is a breakthrough for him. I'm excited for next season for Soulkey vs Flash. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
...and thus after 15+ years Best finally joins the Kong line. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7885 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:35 sM.Zik wrote: Congrats Soulkey! Bonjwa? you bet he is ! | ||
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HOLYBATS
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felleN
Australia60 Posts
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway630 Posts
Well played SoulKey! | ||
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Peeano
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NovaTheFeared
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Monochromatic
United States997 Posts
4peat is cool - I don't think it will happen again anytime soon. That said, Soulkey looked beatable vs Snow and looked even worse vs Best. | ||
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Simplistik
1998 Posts
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Simplistik
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:36 Peeano wrote: Yeah those last 2 games SK remembered how ZvP can easily beat gatewayman Protoss, but those xspawns definitely helped him. He remembered to just macro lol. All the games he lost was due to failed early aggression. It was over after forcing 6 cannons and sniping the upgrading forge for free | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4969 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:41 foxmeep wrote: He remembered to just macro lol. All the games he lost was due to failed early aggression. It was over after forcing 6 cannons and sniping the upgrading forge for free Yup. Pretty much. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines132 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50099 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:43 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: asl 20 confirmed i guess we weren't in doubt of ASL20, they told us 2 ASLs were coming this year, ASL21 is still not announced. that said considering this is the first season in years to have an external venue for the finals, they're probably not in doubt for future seasons. | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
I will say, I really do hope these organizers stop punishing Protoss with these mappools. In what world does the weakest race routinely get punished by the map choices and that's a good thing. I hope this non-sense stops at some point. | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria481 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote: Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play by both sides. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6517 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:46 oxKnu wrote: Best has very poor corsair micro and a bit of a clumsy approach to the early game in PvZ and that will catch-up sooner or later in a bo7. I will say, I really do hope these organizers stop punishing Protoss with these mappools. In what world does the weakest race routinely get punished by the map choices and that's a good thing. I hope this non-sense stops at some point. Fck outta here with that rethoric. RESPECT GREATNESS WHEN YOU SEE IT. The maps never been better for protoss. DO you know how i say this with a straight face ? CUZ THERE IS LITERALLY 1 ZERG. ONLY 1 DOING THIS SHIT!!!!. Make the maps more zerg favored and you will see how protoss will do better i promess. Soulkey havent played zerg vs zerg in so long. LMAO That said Im expecting map makers to make it even harder next season. Holyshit SK just won 4 ASLS. went to game 7 and that guy was holding that microphone like nothing not adrenaline nothing brother. At this point he is on sanax or ACtually a psychopath cuz there is no way. I mean shit At this point im giving to him the most ICY player to be in Finals. NO QUESTION. GREATEST ZERG POST KESPA ERA. NO QUESTION. AND WIN 1 more ASL in A ROW LIKE THIS IM GIVING TO HIM THE ZERG GOAT STATUS NO QUESTION RESPECT GREATNESS WHEN YOU SEE IT. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote: I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play. SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. | ||
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alypse
2771 Posts
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SCRVN
63 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. Why Protoss and Terran don't do opposite things to Zerg? Or Zerg is the strongest race is normal thing in the best balance game? | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote: SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers. That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do). | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
This final was ok-ish. Some mindgames, some mistakes (from both sides) and the full set. You can't complain about it considering some of the finals we've had in the past. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On May 25 2025 18:10 TMNT wrote: I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers. That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do). i dont agree this is text book, this is pretty unusual, he anticipate 4th exp and give up on perfect simcity in both 2nd and 3rd expansion (and still hold fast zeals push, this is maybe Best biggest mistake in this game, he should have committed on attacking the 2nd exp, but probably he was not aware of ealy 3rd exp at this point, Best though he had time, he didnt have), and ALL this, from Soulkey side, was only possible to what he did in the opening. Soulkey kept the secret token for the last match in my opinion. Try yourself going on early 4th exp on ladder and see where you end up.... | ||
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 25 2025 18:36 Xeln4g4 wrote: i dont agree this is text book, this is pretty unusual, he anticipate 4th exp and give up on perfect simcity in both 2nd and 3rd expansion (and still hold fast zeals push, this is maybe Best biggest mistake in this game, he should have committed on attacking the 2nd exp, but probably he was not aware of ealy 3rd exp at this point, Best though he had time, he didnt have), and ALL this, from Soulkey side, was only possible to what he did in the opening. Soulkey kept the secret token for the last match in my opinion. Try yourself going on early 4th exp on ladder and see where you end up.... Yeah, no I mean textbook in general PvZ. That game Soulkey got slightly ahead with the opening and spawn location, then he kept getting ahead by being greedy bit by bit, here and there, while Best kept playing a middle of the road, safety first build, that got him nowhere: - Soulkey got to drone up, got Lair, Den and 5 Hatches without any zealot moving out on the map - He also got away with a Spire at 9th minute, because P saw the Lair, built 3 Sairs, then realized Z got Hydras already, and stopped building Sairs. So 3 useless Sairs for P. - He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back before P typed gg. If Best had committed to the push you said, he would have lost all the zealots anyway. It was too late at that point to even up the game just by brute force for P. Against that type of build from Z, P need some blind counter. A Sair mass Speedlot+1 push much earlier for example, but I have no doubt Soulkey could have adapted his build accordingly to not lose, and then take the game to late where he's favored again. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13000 Posts
Not enough great things to say about SoulKey. His decision making in game, under pressure is just outstanding. Always seems to make the right move at the right time. Such a great ASL. Really hope Flash comes back for the next one. We need a Flash vs Soulkey series. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
I don't think Best is too upset. He already overachieved this season and got rid of the choker tag (sort of), and no one should be expected to beat Soulkey anyway. In fact both him and Snow and their fans seem to be content that they took Soulkey to game 7. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1759 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
What a shame.. what a damn shame. GGs, anyway. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19219 Posts
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ggsimida
1147 Posts
On May 25 2025 20:54 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Sad ending, but still - one of the best ASL tournaments ever. Somewhere in the Top 3 I think. Very entertaining stuff. (1) flash v effort (2) mini v rush (3) this is my choice. tho i only pick this asl finals since its probably the best final of SK 4 peat series | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
Soulkey vs SnOw had a quality of play that was legitimately the peak of remastered era starcraft. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13970 Posts
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Kraekkling
395 Posts
glad SK got punished for doing dumb shit a few times, but also glad that he stopped doing dumb shit in the last two games when it mattered imo the death valley game is worth an in-depth discussion because there were a lot of game changing decisions in just a few minutes. in the end Best made mistakes which lost him the game... really no pylon at second ramp? those 7 zealots in the zerg main just sitting and doing nothing? not even checking whether SK took his other front expo? whyyyyyyyy the game on radeon was a great showcase of mid-game protoss strength. things seemed to go very well for SK - the no-stargate 3-gate cheese did nothing; and a few moments later Best was turtling up on 8 (!!) cannons at 8 minutes just to be safe vs muta, on only 3 gateways ?? while SK was just shitting out drones from 5 hatch... BUT all of protoss' gas went into a one big goon/temp army and because SK got cocky and took an early 4th, goon/temp can just crush hydra/lurk if Zerg is forced to attack into Protoss. very educational game | ||
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Agh
United States905 Posts
On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote: Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players. Yeah man that 3rd will be easy. Forget the fact that most games end to an attack into a narrow choke despite the maximum cannons allowed being thrown down.  | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
My impression of Best's PvZ has did a 180. Esp after game 5. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2235 Posts
SK is #1 but pvz is bullshit since 2003... every PvZ finals that happens just makes bigger the figure of KIM TAEK GOD | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10106 Posts
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote: Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play by both sides. Second to last game BeSt was behind in supply after muta harassment, took a third when SK got his fourth and started hive. He was already far behind and he was very much still in it. If the game was equal SK should have been behind in supply because zealots cost 2 supply and hydra only 1, and lurkers being much more expensive than dragoons | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19219 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4114 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote: How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records. Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually? Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know. Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport | ||
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bochs
United States103 Posts
As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season? | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:49 M2 wrote: Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually? Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know. Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport This is the right answer. Only foreigners care about goat and bonjwa. Korean don't. Best we can give him is best player of Afreeca era, with an asterisk (because Flash is missing). Any attempt to draw comparison with Kespa is silly. On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote: Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season. As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season? How about Soulkey picking Protoss then? He's been playing A LOT of ladder games as offraces. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote: Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season. As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season? Something different? Bro, Flash is just gonna go mech build and it will be GG. No thanks, better he stays away and let us believe that SK is the best. | ||
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LpTraxamillion
258 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:49 M2 wrote: Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually? Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know. Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport The top players still play the game for 4-8 hours per day nearly every day and have for 20 years. The ones who didn't blow out their wrists or burn out for the most part have just gotten better over time (there are exceptions like arguably jd and bisu). Just watch the replays from kespa versus now. The game is at the highest level it has ever been. Even stats like apm and eapm are higher than they have ever been. Soulkey wipes the floor with anyone from their kespa prime, including flash | ||
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bochs
United States103 Posts
On May 26 2025 07:33 iFU.pauline wrote: Something different? Bro, Flash is just gonna go mech build and it will be GG. No thanks, better he stays away and let us believe that SK is the best. Yeah I'm so curious how SK is going to counter Flash's 14cc mech build. I have seen no success from any Zerg so far, including SK. Of course 9d is instant gg for Terran, but you can't 9d every game, so still need a more sustainable strategy. | ||
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LpTraxamillion
258 Posts
I can forgive the the suboptimal strategy and lack of timings because the game was less evolved back then, but even the control was substantially worse. Best was even worse with corsairs back then by a considerable margin, units were hanging everywhere on both sides, storms were instantly stacking on top of each other every engagement. Ultras lategame vs P rather than defiler was a choice, but I guess julyzerg was so ahead it didn't even matter. Best's play in this 2025 final was infinitely cleaner than his play in 2008 and in general he plays so much better these days, especially his storm control | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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Simplistik
1998 Posts
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote: How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records. I guess for team leagues we can look at KCM and Major Proleague and he's very good in both... | ||
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Simplistik
1998 Posts
Protoss wins: OSL: GARIMTO vs Skelton MSL: Bisu vs Savior SSL: Bisu vs herO KSL/ASL: - Zerg wins: OSL: July vs Reach, Jaedong vs Stork, July vs Best MSL: Savior vs Reach, Savior vs nal_ra, Jaedong vs Kal, Luxury vs Jangbi SSL: (Terror vs Eagle, Force vs Eagle), herO vs Bisu ASL: Effort vs Bisu, Larva vs Mini, SK vs Mini, SK vs Best Honestly, whatever the reason, Protoss seems to be up against it, and Bisu really is special. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5093 Posts
Better luck next time Best. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
Best was powering for so long on 2 base and mass gateway, and couldn't even hold his third base against a Zerg who was massing drones with 4 base and going quick hive. | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote: Only foreigners care about goat and bonjwa. Korean don't. On the Afreeca stream after the last game I saw a comment scroll by that was like "<Korean characters>GOAT", so I guess some of them care. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
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bochs
United States103 Posts
On May 26 2025 10:41 Simplistik wrote: I guess for team leagues we can look at KCM and Major Proleague and he's very good in both... SK's performance in KCM is mediocre at best, and sometimes even disappointing. He seems to not put up his best fight when stake is not high enough. I remember he skipped a KCM finals even though he qualified. Even in ro4 vs Snow and the finals vs Best, he was gambling with nonstandard plays trying to score quick and easy wins, and only pulled off standard play as plan B if that didn't work well. I wonder if he had played standard to start with, whether he'd 4:0 or 4:1 vs Snow and Best. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
258 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:07 HOLYBATS wrote: Comparing different era is silly. I hope Flash returns next season and we will have some competition. Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5093 Posts
On May 26 2025 12:03 Highways wrote: Game 6 and 7 shows that Protoss cannot match Zerg in macro game. Best was powering for so long on 2 base and mass gateway, and couldn't even hold his third base against a Zerg who was massing drones with 4 base and going quick hive. Agreed. Game 6 and 7 made it quite clear in a straight up macro game, protoss has no chance. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:19 LpTraxamillion wrote: Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity | ||
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 26 2025 15:23 pyrogenetix wrote: Agreed. Game 6 and 7 made it quite clear in a straight up macro game, protoss has no chance. Did you not watch the Radeon game? It was a macro game, Protoss took ONE good fight at the 4th and basically won the game and I would consider SK to be ahead after the weak zealot harass | ||
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 26 2025 12:24 Galacsia wrote: imo the biggest problem in PvZ is scouting. Protoss has the tools to fend off against anything from Zerg but not being able to know what's coming (especially early on) and considering Protoss stuff costs more than Zerg stuff, tends to make Protoss players invest a lot into something that may or may not pay off. This is just ZvT in reverse, Zerg MUST go muta to start because you don't know what the Terran has. He could actually be going mech or valk or fast vessel, you just don't know seeing a barracks + 2 supply depot wall at the front In the same vein, you must get at least one corsair to verify what the Zerg is doing and adjust after that | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
for example best beat a queen who was in good shape. or how mini stomped a highly active effort 4-0 in asl 16. Asl15 best 3-1 action. Or asl 13. Rain beat soulkey and soma. And then Bisu beat Soma in 3rd place match. Or how Soulkey lost 4-0 vs snow last week in an online best of 7. the finals sample size is sooooooooooo small that it is not a good statistical representation of balance. Look at all best of sets over 5 or 7, offline and online, and you get the actual state of balance. for example, you can flip a coin 10 times and get head 8 times and tails two times. but if you flip it 100 times you will be much closer to 50/50. and if you flip it a 1000 times you will be even closer to 500/500. Small sample sizes are terrible for data interpretation. | ||
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femtehjulet
17 Posts
On May 26 2025 16:53 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: dont look at just the finals to determinenif P has a fair chance against Z. look at the entire bracket of a tournament. if you think that is too much, look at the top 8 instead. for example best beat a queen who was in good shape. or how mini stomped a highly active effort 4-0 in asl 16. Asl15 best 3-1 action. Or asl 13. Rain beat soulkey and soma. And then Bisu beat Soma in 3rd place match. Or how Soulkey lost 4-0 vs snow last week in an online best of 7. the finals sample size is sooooooooooo small that it is not a good statistical representation of balance. Look at all best of sets over 5 or 7, offline and online, and you get the actual state of balance. for example, you can flip a coin 10 times and get head 8 times and tails two times. but if you flip it 100 times you will be much closer to 50/50. and if you flip it a 1000 times you will be even closer to 500/500. Small sample sizes are terrible for data interpretation. Agree. Best - Queen 4-3, Snow - SK 3-4, Best - SK 3-4. What more to ask for in terms of balance? 1 Z, 1 T and 2 P top 4. SK is imba. Not Z vs P. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:19 LpTraxamillion wrote: Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity It is not the exact same game, you could make a comparison if the maps were identical. Destination alone would break the current meta in z v p for instance, so the skill gap might not be as obvious as you state, and he depends also which players we are talking about of course... Btw, MAKE TAU CROSS GREAT AGAIN! | ||
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Bonyth
Poland547 Posts
But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4114 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4114 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:04 Bonyth wrote: People really use tournament statistics to defend the balance and protoss race? We have 20+ years of tournament statistics, least protoss champions, least protoss bonjwas. But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. I am curious how will the statistics look like if we make a point system for all the tournaments semifinals and finals, where semifinal is 1 point, final - 2p and a winner - 3p. and see how many points each race will get, since, just the winners might not be the best measure, but ro376 doesn't show a lot too | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:04 Bonyth wrote: People really use tournament statistics to defend the balance and protoss race? We have 20+ years of tournament statistics, least protoss champions, least protoss bonjwas. But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Heck, most competitors perform worse in ASL than they do in online competition, in the comfort of their own home and own set-up. Judging players on their ability to play in a sub-optimal environment is going to create inaccurate data. It just shows which individuals can perform best in that sub-optimal environment. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4114 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:20 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Do we have this data though? What does it show? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
we do. you can find every match in which money was in someway invovled on eloboard. Some of the starcast soop duels get removed on request by starcast because he wants to paywall the games behind membership on his YT. the criteria to qualify for reporting on eloboard is for both player's POV to be on vod. https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=rank_list | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:20 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Heck, most competitors perform worse in ASL than they do in online competition, in the comfort of their own home and own set-up. Judging players on their ability to play in a sub-optimal environment is going to create inaccurate data. It just shows which individuals can perform best in that sub-optimal environment. I'm surprised you said this when you know full well the global PvZ win rate on eloboard is 47.4% out of 25k games that cover all of the tournaments above. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:25 TMNT wrote: I'm surprised you said this when you know full well the global PvZ win rate on eloboard is 47.4% out of 25k games that cover all of the tournaments above. didnt we also once reduce the pool of players used in the data to top 5 for each race and get even closer to 50%, by removing weak links like ysc and tyson for example. Also 47.4% is quite close to 50/50. also zerg has 44.9% vs terran. statistically thats, based on your argument, much worse, which it is. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iHIipgJ.png) also if we look at statistics by map, we do see maps that have negative zerg winratea. Citadel, invader, butter, blitz y, tempest, minstrel, Revolver for example. Apocalypse seems most balanced at 50.8% | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:28 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: didnt we also once reduce the pool of players used in the data to top 5 for each race and get even closer to 50%, by removing weak links like ysc and tyson for example. Also 47.4% is quite close to 50/50. also zerg has 44.9% vs terran. statistically thats, based on your argument, much worse, which it is. also if we look at statistics by map, we do see maps that have negative zerg winratea. Citadel, invader, butter, blitz y, tempest, minstrel, Revolver for example. Apocalypse seems most balanced at 50.8% I dont remember doing that, but I did something like that only for ASL/KSL though, and the conclusion points towards my argument iirc. Might want to do that again. Global win rates will always converge to something around 50 +/- 5% unless the matchup starts with something like 4 Drones vs 3 Probes. The reason is tier 1 players will always beat tier 2/3 players regardless of the imbalance. So tier 1 players of race A beat tier 2/3 players of race B, and vice versa, and they even out to some extent. Like many people said, BW is "slightly" imbalanced so that skill gap can make up for that imbalance. Hell, the skill gap can even make up for the 3 Probes vs 4 Drones situation, as Koreans have demonstrated it against the Chinese players. But you go up and up the ladder, the skill gap narrows down, and the imbalance starts to manifest, that's where I think tournament results can be applied. We saw that in KCM (literally a race vs race tourney) and all the Starleagues. But for me, tournament results or win rates are always only parts of the argument. I find it silly to say something like "hey, Snow lost to Soulkey 3 in a row so PvZ is imba", and equally silly is the counter argument "but Mini beat Queen 4-1 4-1 and beat Effort 4-0 so it's not". I always look at the gameplay aspect as well. For example, Snow lost to Soulkey earlier this ASL but if I have to choose one game to highlight the imba of PvZ it'd be the Dominator game where Snow won. Likewise, Best had the chance to 4-1 Soulkey in this finals, but even had he done so, it's not a good demonstration as to P has a fair chance vs Z. On the contrary, Best can lose to Soulkey 10 times in a row and I wouldn't use that sole result as evidence of PvZ balance, because Best is not tier 1 PvZ. And yes, for ZvT, it's bad for Zerg as well and is another issue. The maps you listed are indeed better for P in PvZ, but they belong to the smaller portion in the map pool unfortunately. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
- If the game is more balanced, then good, we solve the problem. - If P dominates and Z and T fans start talking about balance, maybe that's when I can use the exact argument that they are using now: "Hey the win rate is still close to 50%" or "PvT, PvZ is not P favored, it's just Snow who is imba, just get good bros", or "But Hero just beat Snow 4-1 in a series just last week, so it's still doable for Zerg", or "the metas for T and Z are too stale now we need some revolution".... or the worst one "T and Z just are less talented" Literally, in an alternate universe where P won 60% of the tournaments, those same arguments could be used in the reverse way - hence they are worthless, in this unverse of that universe. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3738 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:28 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: didnt we also once reduce the pool of players used in the data to top 5 for each race and get even closer to 50%, by removing weak links like ysc and tyson for example. Also 47.4% is quite close to 50/50. also zerg has 44.9% vs terran. statistically thats, based on your argument, much worse, which it is. also if we look at statistics by map, we do see maps that have negative zerg winratea. Citadel, invader, butter, blitz y, tempest, minstrel, Revolver for example. Apocalypse seems most balanced at 50.8% I think the fact that PvT is disadvantageous in that data set severely undermines its validity. Protoss has a natural advantage over terran, so if the data doesn't reflect that then it must be heavily scrutinized. My guess is that there are too many different levels of skill included to conclude anything about matchup imbalances. Only the best players (top 5/10/20 or something in that vicinity) can play well enough to reflect a race's true strength. Everybody else taints the data with their lack of strategic understanding. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:19 LpTraxamillion wrote: Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity It's the same game but the player pools are not the same. I agree with your argument that players now are not worse, if not better than in the past. But that doesn't make the comparison any more valid though. - Soulkey 2025 (34 year-old mechanics + 34 year-old game knowledge) > Soulkey 2010 (19 y mechanics + 19 y knowledge). That's for sure. - But Soulkey 2025 (34 y mechanics + 34 y knowledge) is very likely < Soulkey 2010 (19 y mechanics + same knowledge as 34 years old Soulkey) That's the first reason why you can't compare. Players now have more tools in their lockers. The second reason is there's no new influx of players. If they Kespa system was maintained up until now, we would probably see some dude born in the 2000s wiping the floors with the likes of Soulkey Flash Snow and literally putting them into retirement (sad but true lol). Hell, we even kind of saw that with the likes of Nada Boxer etc. That's why competing and maintaining top status in Kespa is an unrivalled challenge. | ||
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Kraekkling
395 Posts
Protoss has a natural advantage over terran [citation needed] --- tbh there are reasons to talk about balance but this finals isn't one of them the best player in the world just won a very close 4-3 series vs someone not particularly known for his strength in this matchup like, just from this one result we should conclude that P>Z, right? | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 20:34 Kraekkling wrote: [citation needed] --- tbh there are reasons to talk about balance but this finals isn't one of them the best player in the world just won a very close 4-3 series vs someone not particularly known for his strength in this matchup like, just from this one result we should conclude that P>Z, right? Exactly. Hence I hope my fellow PvZ whiners argue more wisely, otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the feet. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3738 Posts
On May 26 2025 20:34 Kraekkling wrote: [citation needed] --- tbh there are reasons to talk about balance but this finals isn't one of them the best player in the world just won a very close 4-3 series vs someone not particularly known for his strength in this matchup like, just from this one result we should conclude that P>Z, right? Post-Kespa protoss players have severely underperformed because they didn't have enough talent. Terran had Flash, Light, Sharp and a few others, while Zerg had Jaedong (later replaced by Effort/Queen/Soma/Soulkey). But all the top protoss players except for Bisu fell off. Rain was inactive, Stork gave up, Best has always been 2nd tier. Then Mini and Snow came around and they revived the protoss race. Snow in particular has consistently shown for many years that protoss should in fact, win more often than not against terran. He was never proven wrong by anyone. He mops the floor with the biggest calibers such as Flash. Even Light can't overcome the natural protoss advantage whenever he faces Snow. Or do you think Snow is just so much better than Light? No, Light has a positive record against all protoss players except for Snow. Snow has figured out how to play PvT correctly. He is the best proof that terran should be afraid of protoss. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland547 Posts
On May 26 2025 20:45 Magic Powers wrote: Post-Kespa protoss players have severely underperformed because they didn't have enough talent. Terran had Flash, Light, Sharp and a few others, while Zerg had Jaedong (later replaced by Effort/Queen/Soma/Soulkey). But all the top protoss players except for Bisu fell off. Rain was inactive, Stork gave up, Best has always been 2nd tier. Then Mini and Snow came around and they revived the protoss race. Snow in particular has consistently shown for many years that protoss should in fact, win more often than not against terran. He was never proven wrong by anyone. He mops the floor with the biggest calibers such as Flash. Even Light can't overcome the natural protoss advantage whenever he faces Snow. Or do you think Snow is just so much better than Light? No, Light has a positive record against all protoss players except for Snow. Snow has figured out how to play PvT correctly. He is the best proof that terran should be afraid of protoss. Super subjective. Protoss players just didn't have enough talent (despite the biggest player pool). Talk about coincidence. One of the arguments that triggers me :D Anyway, even if true, balance is done around the top, even if all of them are just naturally gifted. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 20:45 Magic Powers wrote: Post-Kespa protoss players have severely underperformed because they didn't have enough talent. Terran had Flash, Light, Sharp and a few others, while Zerg had Jaedong (later replaced by Effort/Queen/Soma/Soulkey). But all the top protoss players except for Bisu fell off. Rain was inactive, Stork gave up, Best has always been 2nd tier. Then Mini and Snow came around and they revived the protoss race. Snow in particular has consistently shown for many years that protoss should in fact, win more often than not against terran. He was never proven wrong by anyone. He mops the floor with the biggest calibers such as Flash. Even Light can't overcome the natural protoss advantage whenever he faces Snow. Or do you think Snow is just so much better than Light? No, Light has a positive record against all protoss players except for Snow. Snow has figured out how to play PvT correctly. He is the best proof that terran should be afraid of protoss. I mean, this post contains false information and already contradicts itself doesn't it? You said Protoss don't have enough talents but already listed 3: Bisu, Snow, Mini. Terran have: Flash yes, Light yes, but no, not Sharp. For the few others, probably yes. Tbh I don't know why Terran seem to have many one-season-wonder-ish type (Rush/JYJ/Royal/Mind), but overall they are also no more, if not less talented than "2nd-tier Best". Zerg have: Jaedong no (he fell off as well), Effort no (just as many ASL and as inactive as Rain), Soma no (top 3 of the race for sure but hasn't achieved more in ASL than "2nd-tier Best"), so only Queen and Soulkey. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3738 Posts
On May 26 2025 21:00 TMNT wrote: I mean, this post contains false information and already contradicts itself doesn't it? You said Protoss don't have enough talents but already listed 3: Bisu, Snow, Mini. Terran have: Flash yes, Light yes, but no, not Sharp. For the few others, probably yes. Tbh I don't know why Terran seem to have many one-season-wonder-ish type (Rush/JYJ/Royal/Mind), but overall they are also no more, if not less talented than "2nd-tier Best". Zerg have: Jaedong no (he fell off as well), Effort no (just as many ASL and as inactive as Rain), Soma no (top 3 of the race for sure but hasn't achieved more in ASL than "2nd-tier Best"), so only Queen and Soulkey. I didn't say protoss "doesn't" have enough talents, I said it didn't previously have enough talent. Prior to Mini, prior to Snow, before those players popped off. Likewise I was talking about the past years prior to Mini, prior to Snow, when I was talking about Sharp. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1009 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 26 2025 21:06 Magic Powers wrote: I didn't say protoss "doesn't" have enough talents, I said it didn't previously have enough talent. Prior to Mini, prior to Snow, before those players popped off. Likewise I was talking about the past years prior to Mini, prior to Snow, when I was talking about Sharp. Snow and Mini became tier 1 player around ASL5, so you're basically talking about the period from the dark age of BW to ASL4? Where Light was still a Ro24 player, Queen was in the military, Sharp is no more a valid example than Shuttle (who actually beat him and remained a tier 1 player until his military service), Soma didn't even exist, Soulkey was as strong as Best? You're just mixing up periods then. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
On May 26 2025 20:32 TMNT wrote: It's the same game but the player pools are not the same. I agree with your argument that players now are not worse, if not better than in the past. But that doesn't make the comparison any more valid though. - Soulkey 2025 (34 year-old mechanics + 34 year-old game knowledge) > Soulkey 2010 (19 y mechanics + 19 y knowledge). That's for sure. - But Soulkey 2025 (34 y mechanics + 34 y knowledge) is very likely < Soulkey 2010 (19 y mechanics + same knowledge as 34 years old Soulkey) That's the first reason why you can't compare. Players now have more tools in their lockers. The second reason is there's no new influx of players. If they Kespa system was maintained up until now, we would probably see some dude born in the 2000s wiping the floors with the likes of Soulkey Flash Snow and literally putting them into retirement (sad but true lol). Hell, we even kind of saw that with the likes of Nada Boxer etc. That's why competing and maintaining top status in Kespa is an unrivalled challenge. Actually Lets look at League of Legends as an example. In league we still have a steady influx of new talent, yet we still see the veterans from 5-8 years ago dominate in competitive. There is a ceiling to the maximim achievable skill. after the first few years where players are figuring out the game and its capabilities, player reach maximum skill potential. Sometimes, but very very rarely, the maximum skill ceiling can be marginally broken through and raised a tiny bit. We see this too at the highest level of combat sports were the generally oldee fighters around 30 and just above hold champion belts for longer periods of time, even though there is a masssive influx of new talent cycling into the professional scenes. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1009 Posts
On May 26 2025 20:32 TMNT wrote: It's the same game but the player pools are not the same. I agree with your argument that players now are not worse, if not better than in the past. But that doesn't make the comparison any more valid though. - Soulkey 2025 (34 year-old mechanics + 34 year-old game knowledge) > Soulkey 2010 (19 y mechanics + 19 y knowledge). That's for sure. - But Soulkey 2025 (34 y mechanics + 34 y knowledge) is very likely < Soulkey 2010 (19 y mechanics + same knowledge as 34 years old Soulkey) That's the first reason why you can't compare. Players now have more tools in their lockers. The second reason is there's no new influx of players. If they Kespa system was maintained up until now, we would probably see some dude born in the 2000s wiping the floors with the likes of Soulkey Flash Snow and literally putting them into retirement (sad but true lol). Hell, we even kind of saw that with the likes of Nada Boxer etc. That's why competing and maintaining top status in Kespa is an unrivalled challenge. Facts. Obvious facts But facts | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
Change that and you are going to get different outcomes. Soulkey is the best Zerg ever (imo) but he has never been as dominant as Flash and we'll never get to that level. Just accept that the best 16 players are who they are and optimize the mappools for the best tournament settings and keep gargling that Hot6. | ||
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 26 2025 21:00 TMNT wrote: I mean, this post contains false information and already contradicts itself doesn't it? You said Protoss don't have enough talents but already listed 3: Bisu, Snow, Mini. Terran have: Flash yes, Light yes, but no, not Sharp. For the few others, probably yes. Tbh I don't know why Terran seem to have many one-season-wonder-ish type (Rush/JYJ/Royal/Mind), but overall they are also no more, if not less talented than "2nd-tier Best". Zerg have: Jaedong no (he fell off as well), Effort no (just as many ASL and as inactive as Rain), Soma no (top 3 of the race for sure but hasn't achieved more in ASL than "2nd-tier Best"), so only Queen and Soulkey. Forgetting about Hero? Just because he lost 3-4 to SK in the finals doesn't make him not good at the game. He's just as good as BeSt or Snow | ||
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LpTraxamillion
258 Posts
On May 27 2025 00:38 oxKnu wrote: You guys are arguing over non-sense. The fact of the matter is pretty clear: all of the modern mappools used in the remastered era except two seasons (one ASL, one KSL) have been created in a way that favors Terran overall and punishes Protoss against Zerg. (sometimes badly - wink wink Benzene, sometimes slightly) Change that and you are going to get different outcomes. Soulkey is the best Zerg ever (imo) but he has never been as dominant as Flash and we'll never get to that level. Just accept that the best 16 players are who they are and optimize the mappools for the best tournament settings and keep gargling that Hot6. 4 straight ASL tournament wins is as dominant as anyone has ever been | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
Snow has reaver control that sets him apart, Terran have certain styles and timings that set them apart. But every ZvP is Hero or SK or Queen just hydra busting with 0 downside then transitioning into whatever they want. Maps can’t fix it either, Toss have to go back to the drawing board on builds bc this meta is broken, blatantly. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
120 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7861 Posts
Congrats to Soulkey, though i can’t wait to see him finally fall. | ||
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LpTraxamillion
258 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:20 mOnion wrote: I just wish Soulkey looked dominant in a way that wasn’t abusing the broken matchup. Getting to hydra bust your way to free contain, delaying upgrades, and contain toss until they mine out 2 base and have to push to mine at all. Snow has reaver control that sets him apart, Terran have certain styles and timings that set them apart. But every ZvP is Hero or SK or Queen just hydra busting with 0 downside then transitioning into whatever they want. Maps can’t fix it either, Toss have to go back to the drawing board on builds bc this meta is broken, blatantly. Games you describe were largely the games SK lost Game 1 SK went straight muta and killed a fast citadel build Game 3 SK built nothing but lings Game 6 SK went fast double evo Game 7 SK didn't go for a quick busy or even 9-7-3 it was greedy heavy econ with late hydra and relatively fast upgrades to stop sair production and go into muta | ||
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LpTraxamillion
258 Posts
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nikolaus8844
103 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:04 nikolaus8844 wrote: I don't know about balance but Best's utter disregard of the safety of his HTs was something out of this world... SK was literally running rings around him in that regard When Zerg decides to kill HT there’s nothing toss can do. Same for T when they send vultures, dragoons fire too slow and HTs are the most easily sniped spell caster. You just overbuild and hope some make it through | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4717 Posts
One think I'm looking out for is if they start mixing in reavers sooner, coupled with an earlier third. There's very little Z can do when you block a ramp with zealots and reavers and cannons pre hive. Maybe I'm just not understanding the matchup. P always feels way too scared to move out or to expand. Maybe they should overlord hunt a little more consistently to deny vision so that they can take expansions less obviously? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:20 mOnion wrote: I just wish Soulkey looked dominant in a way that wasn’t abusing the broken matchup. Getting to hydra bust your way to free contain, delaying upgrades, and contain toss until they mine out 2 base and have to push to mine at all. Snow has reaver control that sets him apart, Terran have certain styles and timings that set them apart. But every ZvP is Hero or SK or Queen just hydra busting with 0 downside then transitioning into whatever they want. Maps can’t fix it either, Toss have to go back to the drawing board on builds bc this meta is broken, blatantly. if this is your hot take on Soulkey's play then you're missing every single nuance in his play that makes him stand out from the rest. Soulkey plays with a focus on reading and braining his way to maximized input/output. No other zerg has as of yet been able to replicate what Soulkey does. You're ignoring most of his play and skills by boiling it down to "hydra bust with 0 downisde". also in response to tiers per race. I'll argue only SnOw is tier 1 protoss, much like how only Soulkey is tier 1 zerg, and Light and Flash are the only tier 1 terrans. JyJ could have grown into a tier 1 terran but he legit cut his activity by 80% after he won ASL. he used to ladder and spon a lot, and now its basically zero ladder and zero spons. | ||
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prion_
67 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24614 Posts
On May 27 2025 08:45 prion_ wrote: It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining Always seems to be the way. Both Best and Snow the round before him aren’t exactly slouches, they’re not massively renowned for being absolute PvZ gods or specialists. And Soulkey is pretty fucking good in the matchup. Went down to the line in both and they were both pretty bloody good series. I’m much more of a noob with this game than some here, but I expected Soulkey to come through much more smoothly, and instead we got some pretty bloody close StarCraft, and overall this season of ASL has been great watching. Sad that neither Snow or Best got that elusive title sure, but some of the whine is mental to me. | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
But he was almost beat in this ASL. | ||
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sertas
Sweden881 Posts
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Wyv
1 Post
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Simplistik
1998 Posts
On May 27 2025 15:19 Wyv wrote: I just come back from 20+years of inactivity on broodwar. Amazing tournament! I was wondering if it's still possible to get the replays of the matches. I remember in the old days you could, but i don't see any option to do so atm. I don't think so, only Vods. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7861 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:04 nikolaus8844 wrote: I don't know about balance but Best's utter disregard of the safety of his HTs was something out of this world... I believe that’s the next big thing Protoss players need to figure out and refine. Many, many games are lost just because crucial storms are not available because the Templars were totally out of position. I think there is something in the way people move and hotkey their armies that needs to be discovered there. | ||
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 27 2025 07:17 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: if this is your hot take on Soulkey's play then you're missing every single nuance in his play that makes him stand out from the rest. Soulkey plays with a focus on reading and braining his way to maximized input/output. No other zerg has as of yet been able to replicate what Soulkey does. You're ignoring most of his play and skills by boiling it down to "hydra bust with 0 downisde". What nobody mentioned is that SK is not the best ZvP player. Statistically, Soma is. SK did win in ASL more often, but even winning this ASL is partly luck. If he met BeSt in an earlier round and played a BO5 BeSt would have knocked him out (since he went 3-2 before losing 3-4) | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2235 Posts
On May 27 2025 08:45 prion_ wrote: It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining cause he was not going to win the series regardless of the score... hows that shit so difficult to understand? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2235 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:20 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Heck, most competitors perform worse in ASL than they do in online competition, in the comfort of their own home and own set-up. Judging players on their ability to play in a sub-optimal environment is going to create inaccurate data. It just shows which individuals can perform best in that sub-optimal environment. thats bullshit, u can't argue about balance looking at lower level shit... balance is mesured at the highest level, and that level is finals of OSL MSL ASL KSL and SSL... KCM proleague and all that shit, makes it so that the fucking #15 zerg player on the world can lose to #3 protoss...and u're trying to use those games to argue that zerg is equal to protoss... when shit gets real and the #1 protoss is vs #1 zerg ... we know the result. On May 26 2025 12:25 bochs wrote: SK's performance in KCM is mediocre at best, and sometimes even disappointing. He seems to not put up his best fight when stake is not high enough. I remember he skipped a KCM finals even though he qualified. Even in ro4 vs Snow and the finals vs Best, he was gambling with nonstandard plays trying to score quick and easy wins, and only pulled off standard play as plan B if that didn't work well. I wonder if he had played standard to start with, whether he'd 4:0 or 4:1 vs Snow and Best. THATS MY FUCKING POINT, THE SERIES WERE CLOSE CAUSE HE WAS FUCKING TROLLING!!! JUST LOOK AT THE DAMN GAMES THAT HE LOSES... i dont trust his "3-4 comeback every series i play" bullshit, if i have to guess he is just betting on the side and making some extra money with his losses;;;; | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6517 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
However it should not mask the issue of the build, even when Protoss win. I would like to point out the Snow vs Soulkey game on Eclipse as an example. Soulkey opens 3H Spire as usual but then he builds 2 Hydra Dens for a quick, surprising Hydra bust: - he also builds some Scourges to force the Corsairs home until they get critical mass, so logically Protoss shouldn't move their Corsairs out (if Corsairs are out and get caught by Muta Scourge, then Protoss will be called stupid for doing something that doesn't make sense) - but Snow somehow slips a Zealot out on the map. This is totally a mistake from Soulkey for not watching the entrance of Snow despite some Lings and Scourges parking there. - the Zealot sees the Hydras and Snow immediately builds more Cannons (on top of the 2.5 Cannons already in place). Snow eventually holds the bust, building a total of 10 Cannons, and 4 more after the bust ends (because you still need to be safe after that). During the hold, he has a clutch DT to save from the first Hydra dive, then has to pull all the probes to block, then has 2 clutch storms (literally just finishes when only 1 Cannon remains). - the game goes on and Soulkey builds 9 Mutas with the hope of turning the game upside down, AND puts down a 4th before Snow puts down his 3rd, but Snow plays perfectly from there and ends the game. You can't possibly tell me it's a fair game state when one race is able to dictate the game that much just by doing their own thing, while playing solid is not even enough for the other race because they also need to rely on their opponent mistakes. Snow's Zealot should never be let out on the map anyway, but thanks to Soulkey mistake, Snow is able to...almost lose the game if not for multiple clutch moments. In addition to that, Soulkey could just back off for a macro game and still be fine. Committing to the bust is his other mistake. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 27 2025 17:24 XenOsky wrote: THATS MY FUCKING POINT, THE SERIES WERE CLOSE CAUSE HE WAS FUCKING TROLLING!!! JUST LOOK AT THE DAMN GAMES THAT HE LOSES... i dont trust his "3-4 comeback every series i play" bullshit, if i have to guess he is just betting on the side and making some extra money with his losses;;;; You need calm down bro. Soulkey wasn't THAT good or that stupid to become the second Savior. The truth is in this matchup, one mistake tends to cost P the game. But one mistake by Z only gets P a bit of an advantage. Snow and Best were able to capitalise on Soulkey mistakes in their wins. And Z if played correctly from behind, has the tools to make a comeback (see Snow vs Soulkey on Dominator, or Best vs Soulkey on Deja Vu). But Protoss when behind in this matchup, has no mechanism for a comeback (see game 7 both series). | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary280 Posts
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 27 2025 19:37 sas.Sziky wrote: this TMNT guy seems smart, I think we should take it seriously. It would be a big disappointment if it turns out that he doesn't even reach that B rank. And why should we take you seriously instead? | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary280 Posts
I'm praising you now, what's the problem? i just hoping you are have some experince,skill. i just dont know basically who is u and little bit will be suprising for me if u are not around the pro level. But i suppose its will be secret still. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 27 2025 20:24 sas.Sziky wrote: I'm praising you now, what's the problem? i just hoping you are have some experince,skill. i just dont know basically who is u and little bit will be suprising for me if u are not around the pro level. But i suppose its will be secret still. I don't have to be pro or S rank to offer my opinions of the game, as far as they are well articulated and subjective. In every sport or esport, people just do that. That's why I feel sorry for you because you seem to be not educated enough to understand such simple concept, thus all you can do is make snide remarks on a personal level. So either make some comments about the game, or stop acting like a dick. I will not respond to you anymore because you an your posts are so worthless on this board. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary280 Posts
On May 27 2025 20:47 TMNT wrote: I don't have to be pro or S rank to offer my opinions of the game, as far as they are well articulated and subjective. In every sport or esport, people just do that. That's why I feel sorry for you because you seem to be not educated enough to understand such simple concept, thus all you can do is make snide remarks on a personal level. So either make some comments about the game, or stop acting like a dick. I will not respond to you anymore because you an your posts are so worthless on this board. You need calm down. all okay you are right ggs. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands772 Posts
On May 27 2025 20:47 TMNT wrote: I don't have to be pro or S rank to offer my opinions of the game, as far as they are well articulated and subjective. In every sport or esport, people just do that. That's why I feel sorry for you because you seem to be not educated enough to understand such simple concept, thus all you can do is make snide remarks on a personal level. So either make some comments about the game, or stop acting like a dick. I will not respond to you anymore because you an your posts are so worthless on this board. sziky is an elitist yet demands koreans and chinese cant compete with foreign events and tournaments because its unfair. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary280 Posts
On May 27 2025 21:10 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: sziky is an elitist yet demands koreans and chinese cant compete with foreign events and tournaments because its unfair. Because of many things, and i am not an elitist and i am not demands anything. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1009 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19219 Posts
Games related, the game that bothers me the most is the first one without corsairs. It felt like Best really didn’t plan for dealing with mutas. Maybe it was nerves. It definitely shows that opening without a stargate is just to difficult to do. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
70 Posts
or just better maps will do to satisfy stork's whiners army? | ||
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Ideas
United States8081 Posts
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 27 2025 23:51 BisuDagger wrote: Games related, the game that bothers me the most is the first one without corsairs. It felt like Best really didn’t plan for dealing with mutas. Maybe it was nerves. It definitely shows that opening without a stargate is just to difficult to do. He went sairless in one of the games he won, it's just a matter of having enough defense | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2828 Posts
I don't know what the answer is to better HT control outside of putting them in their own group, but it seems clear that the player who solves it probably wins a championship shortly thereafter. Watching them glide in because they were box-selected with attacking units is one of the more cringe things in the game. (edit: i should add that the semi-recent sc2 solution of giving templar a dumb attack is really terrible and also ugly. the players have to come up with something.) Soulkey seems very killable. Suprised he won. Still, one of the better seasons in recent memory and a great final. Even the 2-gate on Death Valley delivered, despite its short running time. Bye-bye, see you all next season. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24614 Posts
On May 28 2025 00:23 Soft_General_5023 wrote: so does the brood war needs balance change in favor of protoss? or just better maps will do to satisfy stork's whiners army? Stork’s? From my noob perspective I think there’s simultaneously an issue and I have zero idea how you would fix it. Is this hydra bust one that’s intended to kill me, or is it a pressure/contain with macro behind it? Are they banking for a Muta switch? It’s difficult to scout the deviations, not impossible by any means. So you gotta go on instinct sometimes, and if you guess right you might be a good spot, or if you don’t the inverse. But Zerg need those options and if you take them off the table and railroad them into fewer paths, I’d imagine you’d see Protoss players absolutely optimising and abusing predictability. It’s not like ZvZ where hypothetically if you wanted to shake that matchup up, you could just buff spores to do bonus to biological units. It directly targets the specific unit in question, and has no impact in any other matchups. SC2 already did this, different game sure but a similar rationale. I think it’s just one of those things that yeah, it’s not ideal, but it’s difficult to see a fix that doesn’t potentially gigantically destabilise the game overall. As it is, it feels Toss has to flip the coin on gut reads, or gambits annd have it come up the right side more often than not in a series, but if they do they can be in a winnable spot. Mini did win an ASL, but it felt that most of his mind games and gambles, and some were big gambles, paid off. Snow and Best played some more middle of the road, but solid StarCraft and it didn’t come off for them this time. Not ideal as I say, but a Toss enjoyer myself that’s still preferable to changes that might swing the matchup too much towards Toss, or have knock-on impacts on PvT or ZvT | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 25 2025 14:49 polgas wrote: Game 1: https://imgur.com/a/rYpqaiA Man, that was funny, lol!  | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 25 2025 15:24 NovaTheFeared wrote: Soulkey just comes out with great builds on the weird map both this and the 5 pool vs Snow were genius. This was actually a very zerg favoured map. It was almost an auto win condition for zerg. | ||
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Kraekkling
395 Posts
why does noone talk about the fact that Best basically doesnt gateway first??? almost every zerg will agree that forge-first or nexus-first builds are much easier to play against compared to gateway first. didn't Mini show us that P can win games with 1 gateway in the first 3-4 minutes? or get really ahead at least? even vs the very best Z pros? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24614 Posts
On May 28 2025 02:45 Kraekkling wrote: btw, 9gate->expansion is imo the biggest development in PvZ in the last 10 years, maybe even since modern PvZ was invented by Bisu why does noone talk about the fact that Best basically doesnt gateway first??? almost every zerg will agree that forge-first or nexus-first builds are much easier to play against compared to gateway first. didn't Mini show us that P can win games with 1 gateway in the first 3-4 minutes? or get really ahead at least? even vs the very best Z pros? It’s been a while, if we’re talking his ASL winning season wasn’t Mini basically rotating between things like Nexus first into gateway and cyber before forge and cutting every possible corner into doing more safe stuff other maps? It wasn’t that Mini optimised some ‘Mini build’ that was super potent and solid, he was gambling a lot and won those gambles. Maybe that’s what you need to do to win one of these things against a high class Zerg, and it’s been shown to be possible. Is it reliable or reasonable as an expectation is another question. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden509 Posts
On May 27 2025 23:51 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone please chill or we will moderate the thread harder. And let’s not throw out match fixing allegations. Games related, the game that bothers me the most is the first one without corsairs. It felt like Best really didn’t plan for dealing with mutas. Maybe it was nerves. It definitely shows that opening without a stargate is just to difficult to do. Did you stop watching after the first game?... Whats up with all the stupid posts in this thread, lol. Games related, EPIC! | ||
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Kraekkling
395 Posts
On May 28 2025 02:57 WombaT wrote: It’s been a while, if we’re talking his ASL winning season wasn’t Mini basically rotating between things like Nexus first into gateway and cyber before forge and cutting every possible corner into doing more safe stuff other maps? It wasn’t that Mini optimised some ‘Mini build’ that was super potent and solid, he was gambling a lot and won those gambles. Maybe that’s what you need to do to win one of these things against a high class Zerg, and it’s been shown to be possible. Is it reliable or reasonable as an expectation is another question. I'm just saying that's it's a really strong opening, maybe even the best one. It has to be part of a programers repertoire. btw I'm not talking about some specific season in regards to Mini, he just seems the best at that style of early play | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 25 2025 19:18 TMNT wrote: Yeah, no I mean textbook in general PvZ. That game Soulkey got slightly ahead with the opening and spawn location, then he kept getting ahead by being greedy bit by bit, here and there, while Best kept playing a middle of the road, safety first build, that got him nowhere: - Soulkey got to drone up, got Lair, Den and 5 Hatches without any zealot moving out on the map - He also got away with a Spire at 9th minute, because P saw the Lair, built 3 Sairs, then realized Z got Hydras already, and stopped building Sairs. So 3 useless Sairs for P. - He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back before P typed gg. If Best had committed to the push you said, he would have lost all the zealots anyway. It was too late at that point to even up the game just by brute force for P. Against that type of build from Z, P need some blind counter. A Sair mass Speedlot+1 push much earlier for example, but I have no doubt Soulkey could have adapted his build accordingly to not lose, and then take the game to late where he's favored again. It is interesting how we say the same thing on different occasions. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote: Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players. I try to tell them Protoss is the only race with 850 base cost. It never dawns on them to keep a migrant army and just flood the map with expansions. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 28 2025 04:29 mtcn77 wrote: It is interesting how we say the same thing on different occasions. What I wrote there is in no way or form the same thing with anything you have ever said on this board... | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 28 2025 02:45 Kraekkling wrote: btw, 9gate->expansion is imo the biggest development in PvZ in the last 10 years, maybe even since modern PvZ was invented by Bisu why does noone talk about the fact that Best basically doesnt gateway first??? almost every zerg will agree that forge-first or nexus-first builds are much easier to play against compared to gateway first. didn't Mini show us that P can win games with 1 gateway in the first 3-4 minutes? or get really ahead at least? even vs the very best Z pros? Gate first is just a different way of opening, not necessarily the better one. Its success depends on how much the zealot pressure deals damage to Zerg (either by getting a drone, or focing good trades with lings), but the higher the skill level goes up, the harder it is to earn that damage because top Zergs have perfected ling control and drone/ling production balance. On the other hand, you take much higher risk of losing the game outright if the first few zealots are not controlled perfectly and/or Zerg switches the ling flood gate, even AFTER you get good exchanges early on. You literally see that happened to Snow in game 1 vs Soulkey, game 2 Best vs Queen, or this game yesterday in Proleague (Snow's zealot pressure did so well he even killed the Pool, but one moment of inattention lost him the game immediately after that). Best is probably not confident in his micro (and rightly so, he's not gonna outplay Soulkey with early zealot vs ling exchange) hence he didn't do Gate first. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:27 TMNT wrote: What I wrote there is in no way or form the same thing with anything you have ever said on this board... Really? https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28253326 I go 2 full paragraphs attacking this notion and you get to claim my point without even a credit. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:45 TMNT wrote: Gate first is just a different way of opening, not necessarily the better one. Its success depends on how much the zealot pressure deals damage to Zerg (either by getting a drone, or focing good trades with lings), but the higher the skill level goes up, the harder it is to earn that damage because top Zergs have perfected ling control and drone/ling production balance. On the other hand, you take much higher risk of losing the game outright if the first few zealots are not controlled perfectly and/or Zerg switches the ling flood gate, even AFTER you get good exchanges early on. You literally see that happened to Snow in game 1 vs Soulkey, game 2 Best vs Queen, or this game yesterday in Proleague (Snow's zealot pressure did so well he even killed the Pool, but one moment of inattention lost him the game immediately after that). Best is probably not confident in his micro (and rightly so, he's not gonna outplay Soulkey with early zealot vs ling exchange) hence he didn't do Gate first. Gate first has different mechanics. Protoss does it for the zerg to overstep zergling production and cut back drones. It is also very challenging to zergs to be put under performance pressure. It is the reverse of a hydralisk rush that you can back out. An early zergling rush is do or die - you are far off from your base and protoss is within base. That puts reinforcement advantage in protoss camp. Your window is likely closed even if you start an all in. That is the bet Bisu and Mini are making when doing gate first. Also, all gate firsts are proxy gates that are far from the enemy camp. There is a reason why they only work at near spawn small maps and not cross spawn large maps. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24614 Posts
On May 28 2025 04:39 mtcn77 wrote: I try to tell them Protoss is the only race with 850 base cost. It never dawns on them to keep a migrant army and just flood the map with expansions. For good reason. In any field, it’s good to challenge conventional wisdom. But at some point, somebody has to actually prove the concept works and everyone has been doing it wrong all along. Just takes one guy or gal. Doesn’t have to be an elite player. Destiny sure as fuck wasn’t elite at SC2, but even top players took notice at what he was doing with Infestor abuse. I’d find it exceedingly, exceedingly unlikely that the Toss hivemind haven’t thought of such things, or tried to make it work. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey249 Posts
On May 28 2025 06:51 WombaT wrote: For good reason. In any field, it’s good to challenge conventional wisdom. But at some point, somebody has to actually prove the concept works and everyone has been doing it wrong all along. Just takes one guy or gal. Doesn’t have to be an elite player. Destiny sure as fuck wasn’t elite at SC2, but even top players took notice at what he was doing with Infestor abuse. I’d find it exceedingly, exceedingly unlikely that the Toss hivemind haven’t thought of such things, or tried to make it work. They have. I posted two back to back wins Mini had with this strategy. One against Queen. The other against Soulkey(which I misquoted as Queen the second time and hated on him). PS: by the way, I put gate first into the same pool of strategies as the migrant army. It is the anti "FE turtling protoss strategy" that have plagued the minds of many protoss like the aeon of strife. | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 28 2025 06:39 mtcn77 wrote: Gate first has different mechanics. Protoss does it for the zerg to overstep zergling production and cut back drones. It is also very challenging to zergs to be put under performance pressure. It is the reverse of a hydralisk rush that you can back out. An early zergling rush is do or die - you are far off from your base and protoss is within base. That puts reinforcement advantage in protoss camp. Your window is likely closed even if you start an all in. That is the bet Bisu and Mini are making when doing gate first. Also, all gate firsts are proxy gates that are far from the enemy camp. There is a reason why they only work at near spawn small maps and not cross spawn large maps. Have you considered the possibility that the Zerg doesn't overstep Zergling production and makes just the right amount to shut down Zealot pressure? | ||
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TMNT
2598 Posts
On May 28 2025 06:33 mtcn77 wrote: Really? https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28253326 I go 2 full paragraphs attacking this notion and you get to claim my point without even a credit. I really don't want to dive into that mess of a thread, but can you explain how what I wrote here about game 7 Best vs Soulkey: "He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back " is similar to anything you wrote in that lengthy post, 'cause I see no resemblance whatsoever? | ||
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Kraekkling
395 Posts
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Eclipse
