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Vatican City State90 Posts
On March 20 2024 07:07 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 05:00 Smorrie wrote:On March 19 2024 23:26 TMNT wrote:On March 19 2024 11:49 RowdierBob wrote:On March 19 2024 11:20 TMNT wrote:On March 19 2024 10:54 Smorrie wrote:
SK vs Bisu 2 was a sick game... Came to the comment section to see the posts about SK totally turning around a lost game by cancelling his 4th hatch and putting down a double hydra den, hitting a sick timing attack which only worked due to the double den. This is the type of stuff you only see in the most elitest games.
But all I found was a poll about the game with 'only watch if you have time' as the popular vote. As disappointing as Mong's performance. Think you're confusing between a timing attack and an all in cheese. A timing attack, like a 5 Fac for example, doesn't involve sacking your entire economy while having no follow up... I think you're underselling SK's play in this game. I think it was a very practised and well executed build specific to what he knows about Bisu. For me it's just a tech switch that has always been in the arsenal of Zerg and I'm pretty sure you can find a double hydra den play on the ladder, not just at elite level. It doesn't take much micro or macro skill, just banking on your opponent not sending a corsair to your base. Denying the probe scouting for a 3H Hydra bust takes more attention than that. And I'm pretty sure it would have worked with 1 Hydra Den as well because Bisu had like... 2 cannons and almost no fighting units at that point. It's the equivalent of a PvT or PvP where you show the core spinning and cancel it and DT rush. Except that in PvP or PvT you can block the ramp later and actively deny your opponent of scouting it. While in this case he has to rely on pure luck. I really don't understand how that situation is anywhere remotely comparable to the SK vs Bisu game, with the exception of something getting cancelled. At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or just diminishing all context of the game due to your strong preference for Protoss players. All good though, Bisu still advances :D Don't you think the reason you came here to see the posts about that game only to find "watch if you have time" is because most people don't find that tech flip all that amazing and it's only you who are overrating it? As far as I know the Korean community and other pros didn't go crazy about it either. Is this the first time you see Zerg flipping their tech? Or because this time he built 2 Dens instead of 1? Never seen that either? Do you think it's not an all in (he had 3H and 24 drones by the way)? Do you agree that he had no active control whether or not Bisu would find out? I don't understand how you don't understand that situations like cancelling range for DT rush, or cancelling CC for 2 Rax all in, or any situations where you flip your tech to go for a killing blow, are comparable to what Soulkey did here? Honestly, what's the difference? That he was behind so he had to do something? Or that he built 2 Dens instead of 1???
The problem is that you don't understand nuance because you've drunk Artosis' Kool-aid and think that (an allegedlly) all-in = lack of skill and if you win is just out of pure luck, when in fact there's an accurate timing for it to work.
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On March 20 2024 07:42 cheesehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 07:07 TMNT wrote:On March 20 2024 05:00 Smorrie wrote:On March 19 2024 23:26 TMNT wrote:On March 19 2024 11:49 RowdierBob wrote:On March 19 2024 11:20 TMNT wrote:On March 19 2024 10:54 Smorrie wrote:
SK vs Bisu 2 was a sick game... Came to the comment section to see the posts about SK totally turning around a lost game by cancelling his 4th hatch and putting down a double hydra den, hitting a sick timing attack which only worked due to the double den. This is the type of stuff you only see in the most elitest games.
But all I found was a poll about the game with 'only watch if you have time' as the popular vote. As disappointing as Mong's performance. Think you're confusing between a timing attack and an all in cheese. A timing attack, like a 5 Fac for example, doesn't involve sacking your entire economy while having no follow up... I think you're underselling SK's play in this game. I think it was a very practised and well executed build specific to what he knows about Bisu. For me it's just a tech switch that has always been in the arsenal of Zerg and I'm pretty sure you can find a double hydra den play on the ladder, not just at elite level. It doesn't take much micro or macro skill, just banking on your opponent not sending a corsair to your base. Denying the probe scouting for a 3H Hydra bust takes more attention than that. And I'm pretty sure it would have worked with 1 Hydra Den as well because Bisu had like... 2 cannons and almost no fighting units at that point. It's the equivalent of a PvT or PvP where you show the core spinning and cancel it and DT rush. Except that in PvP or PvT you can block the ramp later and actively deny your opponent of scouting it. While in this case he has to rely on pure luck. I really don't understand how that situation is anywhere remotely comparable to the SK vs Bisu game, with the exception of something getting cancelled. At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or just diminishing all context of the game due to your strong preference for Protoss players. All good though, Bisu still advances :D Don't you think the reason you came here to see the posts about that game only to find "watch if you have time" is because most people don't find that tech flip all that amazing and it's only you who are overrating it? As far as I know the Korean community and other pros didn't go crazy about it either. Is this the first time you see Zerg flipping their tech? Or because this time he built 2 Dens instead of 1? Never seen that either? Do you think it's not an all in (he had 3H and 24 drones by the way)? Do you agree that he had no active control whether or not Bisu would find out? I don't understand how you don't understand that situations like cancelling range for DT rush, or cancelling CC for 2 Rax all in, or any situations where you flip your tech to go for a killing blow, are comparable to what Soulkey did here? Honestly, what's the difference? That he was behind so he had to do something? Or that he built 2 Dens instead of 1??? The problem is that you don't understand nuance because you've drunk Artosis' Kool-aid and think that (an allegedlly) all-in = lack of skill and if you win is just out of pure luck, when in fact there's an accurate timing for it to work.
Or maybe I understand everything, just dont value it as highly as you do. I didn't say anything about lack of skill or winning out of pure luck though. Maybe it's you who is obssessed with Artosis. The timing in question is "as soon as my 2 upgrades are done and before he finds it out". Oh and you could say the same thing for pretty much every timing though. Like a DT rush should arrive before your opponnent builds an Observer lol.
Btw it's not allegedly. It's "completely all in", to quote Nyoken verbatim.
And to elaborate more, I'm the type who is more impressed with stuff like Soulkey denying death like 10 times against Royal to crawl back and win the game (in the Proleague game of the year 2023 - you should check it out), or Mini almost pulling a rabbit out of the hat vs Barracks today.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On March 20 2024 08:42 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 07:42 cheesehuehue wrote:On March 20 2024 07:07 TMNT wrote:On March 20 2024 05:00 Smorrie wrote:On March 19 2024 23:26 TMNT wrote:On March 19 2024 11:49 RowdierBob wrote:On March 19 2024 11:20 TMNT wrote:On March 19 2024 10:54 Smorrie wrote:
SK vs Bisu 2 was a sick game... Came to the comment section to see the posts about SK totally turning around a lost game by cancelling his 4th hatch and putting down a double hydra den, hitting a sick timing attack which only worked due to the double den. This is the type of stuff you only see in the most elitest games.
But all I found was a poll about the game with 'only watch if you have time' as the popular vote. As disappointing as Mong's performance. Think you're confusing between a timing attack and an all in cheese. A timing attack, like a 5 Fac for example, doesn't involve sacking your entire economy while having no follow up... I think you're underselling SK's play in this game. I think it was a very practised and well executed build specific to what he knows about Bisu. For me it's just a tech switch that has always been in the arsenal of Zerg and I'm pretty sure you can find a double hydra den play on the ladder, not just at elite level. It doesn't take much micro or macro skill, just banking on your opponent not sending a corsair to your base. Denying the probe scouting for a 3H Hydra bust takes more attention than that. And I'm pretty sure it would have worked with 1 Hydra Den as well because Bisu had like... 2 cannons and almost no fighting units at that point. It's the equivalent of a PvT or PvP where you show the core spinning and cancel it and DT rush. Except that in PvP or PvT you can block the ramp later and actively deny your opponent of scouting it. While in this case he has to rely on pure luck. I really don't understand how that situation is anywhere remotely comparable to the SK vs Bisu game, with the exception of something getting cancelled. At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or just diminishing all context of the game due to your strong preference for Protoss players. All good though, Bisu still advances :D Don't you think the reason you came here to see the posts about that game only to find "watch if you have time" is because most people don't find that tech flip all that amazing and it's only you who are overrating it? As far as I know the Korean community and other pros didn't go crazy about it either. Is this the first time you see Zerg flipping their tech? Or because this time he built 2 Dens instead of 1? Never seen that either? Do you think it's not an all in (he had 3H and 24 drones by the way)? Do you agree that he had no active control whether or not Bisu would find out? I don't understand how you don't understand that situations like cancelling range for DT rush, or cancelling CC for 2 Rax all in, or any situations where you flip your tech to go for a killing blow, are comparable to what Soulkey did here? Honestly, what's the difference? That he was behind so he had to do something? Or that he built 2 Dens instead of 1??? The problem is that you don't understand nuance because you've drunk Artosis' Kool-aid and think that (an allegedlly) all-in = lack of skill and if you win is just out of pure luck, when in fact there's an accurate timing for it to work. Or maybe I understand everything, just dont value it as highly as you do. I didn't say anything about lack of skill or winning out of pure luck though. Maybe it's you who is obssessed with Artosis. The timing in question is "as soon as my 2 upgrades are done and before he finds it out". Oh and you could say the same thing for pretty much every timing though. Like a DT rush should arrive before your opponnent builds an Observer lol. Btw it's not allegedly. It's "completely all in", to quote Nyoken verbatim. And to elaborate more, I'm the type who is more impressed with stuff like Soulkey denying death like 10 times against Royal to crawl back and win the game (in the Proleague game of the year 2023 - you should check it out), or Mini almost pulling a rabbit out of the hat vs Barracks today.
Aye I mean, clever play in the scenario, well executed.
Thrilling to watch? I mean we all have our tastes and it’s not massively to mine. I mean I could respect Flash’s mastery as he stomped most comers, but it isn’t the peak of spectacle.
And I mean even as a relative BW newbie who’s quite fond of Bisu I’m long locked into the pain of him dying in PvZ to various all-ins haha
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It was a very unusual and cool move. The execution was very well done & the window of opportunity was very small. Without it, the game wasn't particularly fascinating, but this particular event turned around the outcome of the game.
You don't have share the same opinion and think it is cool but your arguments are objectively wrong.
It had nothing to do with whatever you are referring to as a 'tech flip'. He didn't fake his tech to put Bisu on the wrong foot, he never canceled a spire to put down a den instead, nor did he do anything similar to the concept you keep describing.
Even though it seemed that SK originally intended to invest more into mutas, zealots hurt his already low eco, he made too many lings & his mutas turned out to be ineffective. Hydra is the go to progression.
At that point SK was quite far behind and his path to victory would rely on Bisu screwing up. He decided to take matters into his own hands, canceled his 4th hatch to get 2 dens and enough minerals to start both upgrades. As SK engaged Bisu's exp, DT's popped as well, but SK was in there just in time to take down the cannons. A very precise and calculated execution - hence the double dens.
5 mutas are just enough to 1 shot probes which forced Bisu to stay at home and he kept that threat active by picking off a few probes. This was definitely not accounting to 'pure luck' either.
Brilliant execution & definitely worth the watch.
You don't have to think it was fun or exciting. But if you think this is a tech flip or pure luck... well.. I don't know what to tell you.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
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On March 20 2024 09:28 Smorrie wrote:
It was a very unusual and cool move. The execution was very well done & the window of opportunity was very small. Without it, the game wasn't particularly fascinating, but this particular event turned around the outcome of the game.
You don't have share the same opinion and think it is cool but your arguments are objectively wrong.
It had nothing to do with whatever you are referring to as a 'tech flip'. He didn't fake his tech to put Bisu on the wrong foot, he never canceled a spire to put down a den instead, nor did he do anything similar to the concept you keep describing.
Even though it seemed that SK originally intended to invest more into mutas, zealots hurt his already low eco, he made too many lings & his mutas turned out to be ineffective. Hydra is the go to progression.
At that point SK was quite far behind and his path to victory would rely on Bisu screwing up. He decided to take matters into his own hands, canceled his 4th hatch to get 2 dens and enough minerals to start both upgrades. As SK engaged Bisu's exp, DT's popped as well, but SK was in there just in time to take down the cannons. A very precise and calculated execution - hence the double dens.
5 mutas are just enough to 1 shot probes which forced Bisu to stay at home and he kept that threat active by picking off a few probes. This was definitely not accounting to 'pure luck' either.
Brilliant execution & definitely worth the watch.
You don't have to think it was fun or exciting. But if you think this is a tech flip or pure luck... well.. I don't know what to tell you.
Isn't this the BW version of Emperor's New Clothes? Lots of words for something very obvious. Swear I could make the same kind of talk about a hydra bust. And a 3HH can transition to macro, not like this complete all in.
First of all, the game wasn't lost for Soulkey at that point. He was behind in econ, then got 2 drones killed. Bad. But Zergs have come back from much worse than that, otherwise all Zergs should just type gg once they got a could of drones killed.
Then of course it has a small window of opportunity. It's an all in ffs. What kind of all in that gives you a big window? I don't know why you talked like it's something very complicated. The timing is, as I said, "as soon as my 2 upgrades are done and before he builds more cannons". It's not like he could have waited more for +1 attack or whatever lol.
As for the tech flip thing. It doesn't have to mean abandoning your tech building to go for another. It could just be stop producing units from this tech tree, or stop following your original/standard/expected build, to go for a 'gotcha" build. Or if we're being strictly semantic then you win lol. It's the same concept with all the examples I mentioned, just different in details. It's especially a Zerg thing thanks to their unique macro mechanism. A variation is to show Lair then cancel it and hit your opponent with a 3HH bust, which was exactly what Soulkey did to Bisu a couple of seasons ago - and no one was getting crazy about that either.
As for the luck thing. Yes it is. Kind of similar to a hidden base build. It's pure luck in the sense that Soulkey has no definite tool to deny Bisu of scouting his trick. For example in a 3HH opening Zerg can actively deny the probe or zealots entering his base to by ling control. In this case he can't stop Bisu from right clicking his Sairs towards his base. Yes of course Bisu has no reason to do that because the Mutas were keeping him busy. But it's the least Soulkey could do in that situation. Otherwise what is he supposed to do with the Mutas? Sitting like an idiot in his nat? Then he got lucky again during the hydra assault. He happened to have 2 overlords close to the south of Bisu's base, which Bisu didn't find before overlord speed kicked in.
As for the 5 Mutas. There's nothing special about that either. For once, he build them before his 4th Hatch and the 2 Dens. So that already negates any point you want to make. But other than that, what kind of noob who builds a second gas then builds less than 5 Mutas?
In fact there were shit tons of ZvP games similar to this but the Zerg neither built 2 Dens nor committed an all in. But I guess because of the gimmick (2 Dens) that you got thrilled. You need to watch more bro. Zergs pull this kind of stuff off all the time. May I introduce you to a player called Shine?
In the end. Well executed, yes. All in, yes. Tech flip, yes. Luck, yes (okay I concede it's not "pure" luck as in 100% relying on luck like a hidden base - he kind of created his own luck there). Amazing, no to me (you're free to feel anything).
Edit: actually on a rewatch, Bisu's corsairs were sharking around the south of his base for a while but didn't find any overlord because Soulkey sent 2 overlords all the way to the bottom right at the beginning of the game and they were so slow to get back, so the sairs headed to Soulkey base instead and couldn't catch them. So that's definitely pure luck there lol.
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I'm not gonna read all that, but I have never seen a muta/scourge fakeout into a double den hydra push, that was the first time.
Also, when protoss plays vs muta/scourge and moves out before +1 and at least 7 sairs, they are just asking to lose all their sairs. So no, bisu can't just go and scout it. That's why it was brilliant.
Normal 5 muta opening is off of 5 hatches, not 3 hatches, so his muta/scourge was accelerated and more 'allin' than usual. When bisu prepared accordingly, his split decision to go double den was the only thing that could make him win. He was dead in the water otherwise. I think bisu's temp archives was delayed because he needed to prepare harder than usual for the muta/scourge, his next opportunity to scout and gain map presence was the dt, which obviously came too late. But it was close.
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How can you triple down on this lol. Your response hardly makes any sense. To some 1+1=11 makes sense too I guess.
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On March 20 2024 16:12 Smorrie wrote:
How can you triple down on this lol. Your response hardly makes any sense. To some 1+1=11 makes sense too I guess.
Way to win an argument. Instead of countering point by point, like what I did, let's just say "oh I am right because you're wrong".
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On March 20 2024 15:47 Comedy wrote:
I'm not gonna read all that, but I have never seen a muta/scourge fakeout into a double den hydra push, that was the first time.
It is very common build.You can easily see in pro league.
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Very common is a bit of a stretch though. It is indeed unusual to build 2 Dens. But it is essentially a varation of the strategy in which Zerg pretends to go Muta but then flips his BO to flood hydras and bust an unprotected Protoss natural. That you can find very commonly. But the most important thing is it's just one of the popular weapons that Zerg always has in ZvP. You'd find in Shine's bag of builds more creative builds than that.
This is an all in (a super all in while we're a that). I called it as it is. There are always a timing element and a denying scout element in every all in anyway, so let's not pretend it's something bigger than it is. First time we see this build in ASL maybe. But stuff like Action's proxy Nydus vs Light is much more amazing than a double Den hydra bust imo. And you can rightly see so in the audience's reaction as no one is getting crazy seeing this build.
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There is nothing new in that build. I even remember seeing that in the Kespa days too. And more recently from Soma and Effort . I have done that build vs Bonyth too rofl That said Soulkey was really behind from zealot harass. He was forced to cancel the 4 hatchery to produce more hydras. Usually what protoss player does on ladder is to sacrifice one corsair to scout if you playing as blind as Bisu did. But i dont really blame him for doing that cuz it made more sense for Soulkey to go full muta after the zealot harass and Bisu totally ruled out a double hydra den rush.
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On March 20 2024 18:29 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2024 16:12 Smorrie wrote:
How can you triple down on this lol. Your response hardly makes any sense. To some 1+1=11 makes sense too I guess. Way to win an argument. Instead of countering point by point, like what I did, let's just say "oh I am right because you're wrong".
I came to the conclusion that we experience BW on a different level. Hence the 1+1=11, which of course is an exaggeration.
Take your interpretation of 5 mutas 'flipping' into an unprotected Protoss natural.. Transitioning from 5 muta into 5 or 6 hatch hydra is pretty much the standard now (even though that is totally different from what happened in this game, with SK going 2 gas). The intent is to mitigate zealot aggression, prevent 1-2 cors from killing ovies, forcing P to spend more on defense & keeping P honest. Labeling this a 'flip' or an easy bust shows limited understanding of the game and the players' intent.
Anyway, once again I typed way too much - you can attribute this all to luck, cheese, bust, flips, whatever you like... Maybe we'll have more to discuss next week lol
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