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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 1?Yes (19) 79% No (3) 13% If you have time (2) 8% 24 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 2?Yes (25) 93% No (1) 4% If you have time (1) 4% 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 3?Yes (28) 97% No (1) 3% If you have time (0) 0% 29 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 4?Yes (16) 64% If you have time (5) 20% No (4) 16% 25 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 5?Yes (26) 93% No (1) 4% If you have time (1) 4% 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 6?Yes (13) 65% If you have time (4) 20% No (3) 15% 20 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 7?Yes (18) 75% No (5) 21% If you have time (1) 4% 24 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
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On October 17 2023 00:07 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2023 21:55 Ideas wrote:Every game was really fun to watch so I can't complain, and both players played extremely well. It's been a long time coming for soulkey so I'm glad to see him finally earn one. But as someone who was rooting for mini it was tough to watch him lose his lead in games 3 and 5  . Game 5 especially I'm wondering if instead of taking an early 4th, he should have just powered on 3 bases and went for a pre-hive timing bust on soulkey? I know a lot of that decision-making was made because he didn't scout soul-key's 4th though. Just seems like every minute longer the game drags out past 15 minutes on Invader in PvZ gets exponentially harder for protoss lol. This depends on the map imho. For really high-value armies, protoss can basically kill infinite zerg units if the layout allows for choke/highground abuse. Watch Best vs Action from last season for example. In the map pool of this season, especially with how g3 played out (Mini's 3rd), I would say protoss generally has an advantage in late game vs zerg on Neo Dark Origin.
Yea but the way Invader works and soulkey rightfully abusing it, mini was totally screwed trying to hold onto a 5th while doing anything else. There were just so many places for soulkey to expand to and then routes for him to counter-attack and mini couldn't be everywhere at once. As soon as soulkey got that nydus online to his 4th it seemed impossible for mini to do anything without soulkey having a stronger counter move.
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On October 17 2023 04:05 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2023 00:07 Miragee wrote:On October 16 2023 21:55 Ideas wrote:Every game was really fun to watch so I can't complain, and both players played extremely well. It's been a long time coming for soulkey so I'm glad to see him finally earn one. But as someone who was rooting for mini it was tough to watch him lose his lead in games 3 and 5 . Game 5 especially I'm wondering if instead of taking an early 4th, he should have just powered on 3 bases and went for a pre-hive timing bust on soulkey? I know a lot of that decision-making was made because he didn't scout soul-key's 4th though. Just seems like every minute longer the game drags out past 15 minutes on Invader in PvZ gets exponentially harder for protoss lol. This depends on the map imho. For really high-value armies, protoss can basically kill infinite zerg units if the layout allows for choke/highground abuse. Watch Best vs Action from last season for example. In the map pool of this season, especially with how g3 played out (Mini's 3rd), I would say protoss generally has an advantage in late game vs zerg on Neo Dark Origin. Yea but the way Invader works and soulkey rightfully abusing it, mini was totally screwed trying to hold onto a 5th while doing anything else. There were just so many places for soulkey to expand to and then routes for him to counter-attack and mini couldn't be everywhere at once. As soon as soulkey got that nydus online to his 4th it seemed impossible for mini to do anything without soulkey having a stronger counter move.
Yeah, I agree. Invader looks pretty good for ZvP endgame. From my perspective as a noob, when I look at the map 2 options for protoss come to mind: 1. If you expand like Mini, you have to secure at least one of the bottom left bases, too, better both. However, you have to play with a lot of reavers/storm for defense and try to control the center, which could be difficult due to being on low ground. You also have to harass 1 and 3 o'clock. 2. Expand to towards the upper right corner. If you control the high ground plateau, you basically defend 4 bases with your main army without much movement. The expansion at 3 o'clock is also in reach and the expansion below the main base is easy to take as well because it's close to the rally point. It's harder to pressure with your main army that way but you got 2 routes for harass: one into the main and one to the bottom left.
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Also this final reminds me once again that I think(?) Bisu vs Savior in 2007(!) was the last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final lmao. At least in Premiere leagues ASL/MSL/OSL/KSL.
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On October 17 2023 04:42 Ideas wrote:
Also this final reminds me once again that I think(?) Bisu vs Savior in 2007(!) was the last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final lmao. At least in Premiere leagues ASL/MSL/OSL/KSL.
Would you count Sonic Starleague premiere? Probably the highest calibre tournament for years in the post-Kespa era until KSL and ASL came to be. Bisu beat hero in season 9 (2014). Still almost 10 years ago, lol.
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there is a second PvZ match up in the ASL history, and he was great
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On October 17 2023 04:51 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2023 04:42 Ideas wrote:
Also this final reminds me once again that I think(?) Bisu vs Savior in 2007(!) was the last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final lmao. At least in Premiere leagues ASL/MSL/OSL/KSL. Would you count Sonic Starleague premiere? Probably the highest calibre tournament for years in the post-Kespa era until KSL and ASL came to be. Bisu beat hero in season 9 (2014). Still almost 10 years ago, lol.
Yea I forget about SSL because I missed most of those but I would definitely count them.
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Terrible finals and terrible result
Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL
He will drop out early next season
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Dam that was one of the best ASL finals ever even though the score was 4-1. You can tell Soulkey has much more experience late game ZvP in his decision making compared to Mini. Mini played extremely well as well but he didn't utilise one of the best Protoss late game moves which are storm drops.
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On October 17 2023 04:27 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2023 04:05 Ideas wrote:On October 17 2023 00:07 Miragee wrote:On October 16 2023 21:55 Ideas wrote:Every game was really fun to watch so I can't complain, and both players played extremely well. It's been a long time coming for soulkey so I'm glad to see him finally earn one. But as someone who was rooting for mini it was tough to watch him lose his lead in games 3 and 5 . Game 5 especially I'm wondering if instead of taking an early 4th, he should have just powered on 3 bases and went for a pre-hive timing bust on soulkey? I know a lot of that decision-making was made because he didn't scout soul-key's 4th though. Just seems like every minute longer the game drags out past 15 minutes on Invader in PvZ gets exponentially harder for protoss lol. This depends on the map imho. For really high-value armies, protoss can basically kill infinite zerg units if the layout allows for choke/highground abuse. Watch Best vs Action from last season for example. In the map pool of this season, especially with how g3 played out (Mini's 3rd), I would say protoss generally has an advantage in late game vs zerg on Neo Dark Origin. Yea but the way Invader works and soulkey rightfully abusing it, mini was totally screwed trying to hold onto a 5th while doing anything else. There were just so many places for soulkey to expand to and then routes for him to counter-attack and mini couldn't be everywhere at once. As soon as soulkey got that nydus online to his 4th it seemed impossible for mini to do anything without soulkey having a stronger counter move. Yeah, I agree. Invader looks pretty good for ZvP endgame. From my perspective as a noob, when I look at the map 2 options for protoss come to mind: 1. If you expand like Mini, you have to secure at least one of the bottom left bases, too, better both. However, you have to play with a lot of reavers/storm for defense and try to control the center, which could be difficult due to being on low ground. You also have to harass 1 and 3 o'clock. 2. Expand to towards the upper right corner. If you control the high ground plateau, you basically defend 4 bases with your main army without much movement. The expansion at 3 o'clock is also in reach and the expansion below the main base is easy to take as well because it's close to the rally point. It's harder to pressure with your main army that way but you got 2 routes for harass: one into the main and one to the bottom left.
Yeah come to think of it Invader is extremely good for Zerg once you secure the high ground with sunkens + lurkers. You just need one moment where Protoss isn't paying attention to set it up and the base is yours.
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On October 18 2023 11:54 ShowTheLights wrote:
Terrible finals and terrible result
Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL
nice opinion lol
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On October 18 2023 17:30 angryground wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2023 11:54 ShowTheLights wrote:
Terrible finals and terrible result
Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL
nice opinion lol
An overall very underwhelming tourney with many of the favorites getting knocked out too early
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Mini was poor imo. Soulkey had a very clear strategy to be conservative early to negate Mini creating chaos and bring it home with defilers in the late game.
Mini looked pretty clueless in the late game tbh. Didn’t know what to do against the heavy lurker+defiler play from SK. I wish he went heavier storm rather than making so many archons in some of the games.
But well deserved by SK. He outplayed Mini by a wide margin.
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On October 19 2023 07:47 RowdierBob wrote:
Mini was poor imo. Soulkey had a very clear strategy to be conservative early to negate Mini creating chaos and bring it home with defilers in the late game.
Mini looked pretty clueless in the late game tbh. Didn’t know what to do against the heavy lurker+defiler play from SK. I wish he went heavier storm rather than making so many archons in some of the games.
But well deserved by SK. He outplayed Mini by a wide margin.
i dont understand why more people dont try mass reaver
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On October 19 2023 10:18 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2023 07:47 RowdierBob wrote:
Mini was poor imo. Soulkey had a very clear strategy to be conservative early to negate Mini creating chaos and bring it home with defilers in the late game.
Mini looked pretty clueless in the late game tbh. Didn’t know what to do against the heavy lurker+defiler play from SK. I wish he went heavier storm rather than making so many archons in some of the games.
But well deserved by SK. He outplayed Mini by a wide margin. i dont understand why more people dont try mass reaver
Top players add reavers into their army more frequently nowadays. But it's not easy to mass them, they cost a lot of minerals and require strong protection. They also cost gas and that reduces the HT count.
Reavers tend to be used in long games when the first few bases are getting mined out and the focus goes to the remaining fresh expansions. Until that point protoss needs to make sure not to die to multi-pronged attacks in wide open space, which is where reavers are at their worst.
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On October 19 2023 07:40 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2023 17:30 angryground wrote:On October 18 2023 11:54 ShowTheLights wrote:
Terrible finals and terrible result
Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL
nice opinion lol An overall very underwhelming tourney with many of the favorites getting knocked out too early
Lmao whine whine whine
guess they should have just cancelled the ASL once flash didn't show up to qualifiers
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Imo, out of all one-sided finals, this was the least one-sided, as Artosis put it. Every game at least felt close except the one that Mini won.
That being said, Mini played okay but not particularly good or anything. Maybe he wasn't "being Mini" enough. When the game isn't crazy, Soulkey is just straight up a better player. Besides, Soulkey feels really good at mind-games - that's basically how he won against Rush and how he got a lot of edges against Mini. Congrats to needmoney-boy, it's been a long time coming.
It's sad they don't do third-place matches anymore. Rush vs Effort is something i'd love to watch (preferably in the finals lol).
Feels like the next ASL is going to feel at least a little different in terms of lineup. Royal and Soma should go to army (Ruin probably as well, though he is not a regular in asl by any means). Action has retired for now. On the other hand, Effort and Rain are playing somewhat regularly, Calm seems to be on a good level. and then there is Flash lurking somewhere in the shadows.
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I have learned many years ago that winning PvZ without storm drops is much harder. Mini did not a single one.
Great games anyway
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On October 20 2023 06:42 ajmbek wrote:
I have learned many years ago that winning PvZ without storm drops is much harder. Mini did not a single one.
Great games anyway
Yeah exactly it’s one of the best late game moves from Protoss. Also the last game for one of the bases you don’t even need to storm drop, the HTs can storm the drones from the low ground and Mini didn’t even do that.
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On October 19 2023 22:11 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2023 07:40 ShowTheLights wrote:On October 18 2023 17:30 angryground wrote:On October 18 2023 11:54 ShowTheLights wrote:
Terrible finals and terrible result
Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL
nice opinion lol An overall very underwhelming tourney with many of the favorites getting knocked out too early Lmao whine whine whine guess they should have just cancelled the ASL once flash didn't show up to qualifiers
Genuinely, it was one of the worst seasons in a good while. Not too many memorable ties this season. Everyone looked a bit... idk down a tier. Still some starcraft is better than none and there were a few beauties here and there. Here's to hoping for a better season 17!
Mini's late game handling has always been a weakness. Fundamentally he had a misunderstanding and just went way too Archon heavy at the cost of useful storms. He needed a coach or someone to help him quickly between games. Soulkey got his money.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vRJUTRB.jpg)
