EPT
[ASL16] Grand Finals
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2543 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey710 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Gogogo Mini! You are a legend and it is also fall. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1542 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile157 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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weiliem
2061 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On October 15 2023 15:11 weiliem wrote: Is there an English YouTube stream going on for this? linked in the post and on the sidebar StarcastTV_EN | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
it's SO over... | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On October 15 2023 15:19 whylessness wrote: the last terran is in captivity. the galaxy is at peace. I like this proposition. Thank you have a lovely Sunday. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Mini is putting tech at the natural hopefully it won't backfire | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Zerg is trying to escape and expand upwards and tries to keep his supply alive with hydras and running around with zerglings in the fog of war. Zerg now on the top left main as welll, 2 high grounds. Will protoss invoke Shuttle tech? It's 150 ~120 supply now storms are ready, enter midgame. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
meanwhile SK's multitask on point keeping mini still on 2 bases. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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weiliem
2061 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7763 Posts
Let's watch the Final ! | ||
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prosatan
Romania7763 Posts
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repomaniak
Poland324 Posts
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TMNT
2530 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
The siege is lost, the rallies of aiur's get shorter, what was once a mineral-field is now nocturnal desert. Ultimately a zerg which played to the maps advantage better defended for long enough won. Too bad but I was thinking, statistically it is around time that the one who wins the first match loses in the end. Gogo mini templar!!! | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
edit: heh, nothin personal, overlords | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Zerg follows the logic of statistical evolution but protoss has a more different twisted interpretation of things. Mini pulled off a mind-game of a mind-game and goes shuttle reaver. It makes sense because they are cross spawned on a symmetric map and secluded areas. Mini is denied in dropping and loses everything at first. The third drop destroying a fourth hatch only succeeds because Soulkey himself evolved for drop tech and tries to paratroop in Hydra's. Evolutional stats and a dead end. It may be these were equal exchanges but protoss synchronised for reaver domination, and now is missing those reavers due to interference. The toss needs to fall back and re-structure get upgrades and some income but also can't let evolution overgrow. Zerg can not close it though after so many areas already occupied on the map against a protoss with so many different Aoe-spells. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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weiliem
2061 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
The map ends up being split horizontal. Zerg got lurker and defiler but this allows a devious protoss tactic. Using up all storms on dark swarmed areas archons are fused and there gets to be half a lot suddenly. After twenty minutes they finally have +2 upgrades but with good spread and major plagues all protoss aggression gets repelled. There are too many Zerg bases. Protoss might get to a point where they have to care not about where to attack but just have to do it anywhere. Well anywhere there will be a Zerg base. Seems like Zerg will overcome. | ||
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weiliem
2061 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11044 Posts
Mini has a weak late game | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Protoss is in a bad situation. The choke suddenly suffocates them. To some high templars the swarming of the high-tech zerg felt light years long for some cannons it was but a moment. It is an excellent upgrade that Reavers can unionise and and now support a lot of defense. Too much terrain to roam still and there is the right bottom area that is cut off and the 6 o'clock protoss base is sieged and punished. The map is leaking zerg. Disgusting smell is steaming from monitors. Protoss mostly is now just white noise. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
The more furious protoss collective mindspace is the more archons are in an army. And more and more small battalions of protoss tribes connect around the bottom right as they sacrifice themselves on lurker grounds. The way Mini commands and re-structures is beautiful and really effective there is a crystal-second chance that he might stake a comeback. +3/+2/+2 vs. 75% of the map consumed by Zerg. This game was a gigantic battle but it is too sad to see two out of two toss loss. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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TMNT
2530 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
What a crazy game, Mini the king of sneaking, obscene dt control | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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weiliem
2061 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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moktira
Ireland1542 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
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weiliem
2061 Posts
On October 15 2023 17:28 PVJ wrote: What just happened. Man it has been a long time when a match was decided by who has more energy (spoiler: zerg) Yah I think energy level decided this. That was exhausting just watching it. So many confusing moments entire game. How did sk lose his lead? How did mini not hold the last push? | ||
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TMNT
2530 Posts
On October 15 2023 17:27 oxKnu wrote: That was the most insane throw I've seen in the last few years. Wow How's that a throw? If you judge by the supply, it's deceptive. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
Hard to believe this is the same guy that demolished Queen a few seasons ago. I'm happy that Soulkey will win but Mini approached this quite poorly. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
p.s. however SK actually deserves it, he looks way more prepared | ||
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weiliem
2061 Posts
I'm glad we have him in finals | ||
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Hoanghai227
6 Posts
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
On October 15 2023 17:39 M2 wrote: funny how if Mini have not thrown game 3 so epically, we would've had 2:2 now and a great final instead of an one sided stomp p.s. however SK actually deserves it, he looks way more prepared Agree, Soulkey is playing his part. Even though the throw on Dark Origin was insane I feel like La Campanella was the most frustrating display I've seen from a pro Protoss in quite awhile. How the hell do you play for a split map and try to randomly attack in two places too against a maxed Zerg? Protoss players have the most ludicrous strategies sometimes. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
On October 15 2023 17:40 Highwinds wrote: Protoss cant win without early cheese or what protoss has never solved split map turtle zerg. larva and soulkey come to mind. before larva retired he would turtle in pvz and his sim city and sunken positions were almost abusive. besides hydra bust, it is a very strong style... | ||
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TMNT
2530 Posts
On October 15 2023 17:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: is mini going to do a mini and attack a fully defensive spot uphill on invader? Nah. Hydra bust to end the series incoming. So fitting for a Zerg champion. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
p.s. eonzerg isn't bad either :p | ||
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
edit: oh baby | ||
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Mighty gods | ||
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ggsimida
1141 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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ggsimida
1141 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2512 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 5? Yes (26) No (1) If you have time (1) 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 5? Poll: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 6? Yes (13) If you have time (4) No (3) 20 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mini vs Soulkey Game 6? | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
However, the macro games from Mini in this series were "appaling" to say the least. How the hell do you not know which expansions to eliminate on a two player map when you are so ahead. That was lame, this series could've been an all-timer if Mini had done his part. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4165 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On October 15 2023 18:25 whylessness wrote: soulkey joins rain in the realm of the sc2/bw multiple game champion golden gods. but while rain's win was against snow when rain looked invincible in pvp, soulkey's ASL trophy has no question mark. still a great finals imo Soulkey already had a KSL trophy so he was already a multiple game champion. But yeah, he was missing an ASL title  .I think that makes Flash, Rain and Soulkey the only multi-game champions in the post 2012 era. | ||
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
Mini played really well for the most part. His biggest mistakes were his indecisiveness in the late game, bouncing back and forth between Soulkey's expansions without achieving anything, and his unit comp. Yes, it was expensive, but he should have built reavers earlier when he was ahead to bust some of those fortified positions before Soulkey got too big imho. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
On October 15 2023 19:02 RJBTV wrote: Soulkey already had a KSL trophy so he was already a multiple game champion. But yeah, he was missing an ASL title .I think that makes Flash, Rain and Soulkey the only multi-game champions in the post 2012 era. Flash is a SC2 champion? Since when? | ||
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TMNT
2530 Posts
I recommend everyone to watch the super ace of this Proleague between him and Royal just a couple of days ago. He was so dead in the midgame of that game but eventually crawled his way back to life. Those who said Mini played bad or threw the games today, I think it's unfair. Mini played well, especially if you know that he's been in terrible form recently (20% win in Proleague this month). He got ahead with supply and was on even base with Zerg a couple of times but as if it's a sign of sure win for Protoss in PvZ lol. If you know what Soulkey can do with Defiler in the weaker matchup of Zerg (ZvT), you sure understand what he can do in the race's stronger matchup that is ZvP. Overall Soulkey is the deserved winner of this season. He had the harder bracket, defeating former ASL finalist and champion Rush and JYJ (both were champion contenders). While Mini basically beat two K League "parkers"(Sharp and Effort) on his way, with Effort practically giving the wins to him. A bit sad for Mini that he's gotten to 4 finals and only won 1 of them (but hey, that's still a better record than all but 2 players). But if ASL continues to run for a while, and with Royal and Soma going to military next year, he's gonna be the youngest god tier player. Which means he will basically be the no 1 or 2 contender every season. Well, unless Flash returns and gets back to his best. | ||
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
 IEM Season IX - Toronto(Jaedong might also be in there depending on whether you count WESG) | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On October 15 2023 19:22 TMNT wrote: I swear once Soulkey gets to Defiler no matter how far he is behind there's always a chance he can come back. He's so so hard to kill lol. Remember those series vs Royal and JYJ in the last ASLs? You can see that again today in the Dark Origin and the Invader games. I recommend everyone to watch the super ace of this Proleague between him and Royal just a couple of days ago. He was so dead in the midgame of that game but eventually crawled his way back to life. Those who said Mini played bad or threw the games today, I think it's unfair. Mini played well, especially if you know that he's been in terrible form recently (20% win in Proleague this month). He got ahead with supply and was on even base with Zerg a couple of times but as if it's a sign of sure win for Protoss in PvZ lol. If you know what Soulkey can do with Defiler in the weaker matchup of Zerg (ZvT), you sure understand what he can do in the race's stronger matchup that is ZvP. Overall Soulkey is the deserved winner of this season. He had the harder bracket, defeating former ASL finalist and champion Rush and JYJ (both were champion contenders). While Mini basically beat two K League "parkers"(Sharp and Effort) on his way, with Effort practically giving the wins to him. A bit sad for Mini that he's gotten to 4 finals and only won 1 of them (but hey, that's still a better record than all but 2 players). But if ASL continues to run for a while, and with Royal and Soma going to military next year, he's gonna be the youngest god tier player. Which means he will basically be the no 1 or 2 contender every season. Well, unless Flash returns and gets back to his best. My interpretation is that Mini is a lot like Stork -- always way ahead of his time (or way too late -- and I can never quite tell) | ||
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TMNT
2530 Posts
Terran: Rush (not sure if I should count Sharp in? He did get to 1 ASL and 1 KSL finals) Protoss: Bisu, Best, Snow Zero: Hero, Soma, JD How coincidental is that that we have had a new champion every season since 11? And even before that the crown was passed around each time since season 5. It's like everyone gets a bite (except for the ones listed above) And what's the reason behind that? In the past, OSL and MSL crowns were always shared between a few players. Now we have 12 consecutive seasons with 11 different champions lol. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Happy for SK. The guy deserves this long-awaited victory! Commiserations to Mini - a balls-to-the-walls Toss who never ceases to deliver an entertaining long series! Will Flash and Fantasy return next ASL to restore Terran dominance? Long live Brood War! | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On October 15 2023 19:22 TMNT wrote: I swear once Soulkey gets to Defiler no matter how far he is behind there's always a chance he can come back. He's so so hard to kill lol. Remember those series vs Royal and JYJ in the last ASLs? You can see that again today in the Dark Origin and the Invader games. Invader yes, but on Dark Origin Mini didn't even intend to kill Soulkey outright after he came back but to starve him to death. Which should have worked. I still don't fully understand how Soulkey was able to breach the bridges... If Mini had switched his army, as in put his dragoons behind the bridge and more zealots at the fourth I'm sure he could have defended the assault. Or if he had built a couple reavers to defend the bridges. | ||
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TMNT
2530 Posts
On October 15 2023 20:01 Miragee wrote: Invader yes, but on Dark Origin Mini didn't even intend to kill Soulkey outright after he came back but to starve him to death. Which should have worked. I still don't fully understand how Soulkey was able to breach the bridges... If Mini had switched his army, as in put his dragoons behind the bridge and more zealots at the fourth I'm sure he could have defended the assault. Or if he had built a couple reavers to defend the bridges. Nah the Dragoons are mostly deadweight at that point with all the orange clouds. The reason is simple: he just doesn't have enough. As I said, the supply is deceptive. The difference in supply suggests a game ending push by Protoss but that is only the case in the mid game. Defiler with Crackling is a different story. Zerg can erase 100 Protoss supply in an instance if Protoss doesn't have the right comps. That game has a very weird trajectory in the early and mid game that when it gets to late we kinda loses the sense of judging the game state. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On October 15 2023 20:01 Miragee wrote: Invader yes, but on Dark Origin Mini didn't even intend to kill Soulkey outright after he came back but to starve him to death. Which should have worked. I still don't fully understand how Soulkey was able to breach the bridges... If Mini had switched his army, as in put his dragoons behind the bridge and more zealots at the fourth I'm sure he could have defended the assault. Or if he had built a couple reavers to defend the bridges. Mini mis-accolated his resources, put his army west of mid right base but under allocated units the near bridge. He also had very poor positioning at the bridge. Units that mattered were too far off which effectively negates the choke point function of the bridges because he had nothing close enough to the bridge to stop an advance. | ||
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repomaniak
Poland324 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On October 15 2023 20:33 RJBTV wrote: Mini mis-accolated his resources, put his army west of mid right base but under allocated units the near bridge. He also had very poor positioning at the bridge. Units that mattered were too far off which effectively negates the choke point function of the bridges because he had nothing close enough to the bridge to stop an advance. Thanks for the input guys. This is kinda what I meant though. If he had a few dragoons behind the bridges, he could have shot at the units moving across the bridge, especially the lurkers. However, in the game he could only send zealots, which got shot by lurkers behind the bridge. | ||
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namkraft
430 Posts
I guess we'll have to wait for next fall! | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
Unfortunately Mini threw away his advantage in the final game. But his 1 base strat was very well timed, it completely threw Soulkey off. Overall it was a good series. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
To look at things from Soulkey's perpective, the overall theme was that he knew how to drag the games into a state that would favor him most of the time. If you look at the games, they were very competitive to start but the continuation was SK waiting for the mistakes to accumulate from Mini and then in the end the result was not close at all. SK is the true BrainZerg. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2921 Posts
On October 15 2023 19:43 TMNT wrote: So, out of all the top top tier players since Remastered came out, only the following haven't won an ASL: Terran: Rush (not sure if I should count Sharp in? He did get to 1 ASL and 1 KSL finals) Protoss: Bisu, Best, Snow Zero: Hero, Soma, JD How coincidental is that that we have had a new champion every season since 11? And even before that the crown was passed around each time since season 5. It's like everyone gets a bite (except for the ones listed above) And what's the reason behind that? In the past, OSL and MSL crowns were always shared between a few players. Now we have 12 consecutive seasons with 11 different champions lol. It'd be more useful to look at (semi-) finalists rather than champs alone, even though it seems clear there is no true dominant player right now like in the KESPA days that the majority of ppl would pick to win the title. From the players listed it's probably easier to pick who most likely won't win a title anytime soon :p If anyone, probably be Snow would be a big favorite win an ASL, but his streams and streaming personality have contributed a lot to his popularity. Not to take away from the quality of his gameplay and general win rates. Just saying that average form in ladder/practice/proleague don't seem very representative for ASL performance. Ofc there are a lot of additional factors involved - pressure, offline play, preparation, focus and peaking when it matters, etc. But perhaps those are also what makes the difference between elite and elite+. I guess you could also turn it around and say ppl don't care about ASL so much and are more concerned with making money and growing their fan base through streaming and proleague... | ||
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Sabu113
United States11044 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
On October 16 2023 04:20 Sabu113 wrote: Mini's lategame just leaves so much to be wanting. I hope he can evolve. ^This. But job welll done by Soulkey to get into mid-game quite unharmed to then pull it to late. I hate that I wrote a preview for a finals that turned out to be this 1 sided. Mini should really get better late game PvZ understanding. The scenarios I imagined didn't include late game and to that I can only credit Soulkey for not falling to Mini early. Mini on the other hand proves to be a bit too 1-dimensional. I'm curious to see a Bo7 rematch between these 2 in a semi or finals next season and see what Mini learned from this series. 4-1 just hurts to see  | ||
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VGhost
United States3609 Posts
Nice to see Soulkey win a title! | ||
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G5
United States2881 Posts
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Lazyer
United States339 Posts
Love the Starcast casters too!! Much love to Nyoken and eOnzErG (and the crew behind it, if there is one?). The quality and speed of the casts make ASL so much more enjoyable for a noob like me to appreciate. | ||
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SpaNiarD
Spain345 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria358 Posts
Games were bonkers and after mid game Mini just seemed loss against the amazing defense. Just proving #zesagi2023. Maybe now SK can finally afford to buy food | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
On October 15 2023 19:02 RJBTV wrote: Soulkey already had a KSL trophy so he was already a multiple game champion. But yeah, he was missing an ASL title .I think that makes Flash, Rain and Soulkey the only multi-game champions in the post 2012 era. yeah rain and soulkey were already in a league of their own as far as multi-game champions. i was just celebrating the fact that soulkey now has an ASL under his belt in addition to a KSL/GSL. imo the mount rushmore of elite bw/sc2 dual champions is now soulkey, rain and flash. although flash faltered a bit in sc2 he is such a goat of bw i think he can comfortably be mentioned in the same breath as those players. you also have to take into account that all three players were good in bw before sc2 came out, and then successfully returned to bw during the ASL/afreeca era, showing strength in three distinct eras across 2 games. | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
But as someone who was rooting for mini it was tough to watch him lose his lead in games 3 and 5 . Game 5 especially I'm wondering if instead of taking an early 4th, he should have just powered on 3 bases and went for a pre-hive timing bust on soulkey? I know a lot of that decision-making was made because he didn't scout soul-key's 4th though. Just seems like every minute longer the game drags out past 15 minutes on Invader in PvZ gets exponentially harder for protoss lol. | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On October 16 2023 21:55 Ideas wrote: Every game was really fun to watch so I can't complain, and both players played extremely well. It's been a long time coming for soulkey so I'm glad to see him finally earn one. But as someone who was rooting for mini it was tough to watch him lose his lead in games 3 and 5 . Game 5 especially I'm wondering if instead of taking an early 4th, he should have just powered on 3 bases and went for a pre-hive timing bust on soulkey? I know a lot of that decision-making was made because he didn't scout soul-key's 4th though. Just seems like every minute longer the game drags out past 15 minutes on Invader in PvZ gets exponentially harder for protoss lol. This depends on the map imho. For really high-value armies, protoss can basically kill infinite zerg units if the layout allows for choke/highground abuse. Watch Best vs Action from last season for example. In the map pool of this season, especially with how g3 played out (Mini's 3rd), I would say protoss generally has an advantage in late game vs zerg on Neo Dark Origin. | ||
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G5
United States2881 Posts
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
On October 17 2023 00:07 Miragee wrote: This depends on the map imho. For really high-value armies, protoss can basically kill infinite zerg units if the layout allows for choke/highground abuse. Watch Best vs Action from last season for example. In the map pool of this season, especially with how g3 played out (Mini's 3rd), I would say protoss generally has an advantage in late game vs zerg on Neo Dark Origin. Yea but the way Invader works and soulkey rightfully abusing it, mini was totally screwed trying to hold onto a 5th while doing anything else. There were just so many places for soulkey to expand to and then routes for him to counter-attack and mini couldn't be everywhere at once. As soon as soulkey got that nydus online to his 4th it seemed impossible for mini to do anything without soulkey having a stronger counter move. | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On October 17 2023 04:05 Ideas wrote: Yea but the way Invader works and soulkey rightfully abusing it, mini was totally screwed trying to hold onto a 5th while doing anything else. There were just so many places for soulkey to expand to and then routes for him to counter-attack and mini couldn't be everywhere at once. As soon as soulkey got that nydus online to his 4th it seemed impossible for mini to do anything without soulkey having a stronger counter move. Yeah, I agree. Invader looks pretty good for ZvP endgame. From my perspective as a noob, when I look at the map 2 options for protoss come to mind: 1. If you expand like Mini, you have to secure at least one of the bottom left bases, too, better both. However, you have to play with a lot of reavers/storm for defense and try to control the center, which could be difficult due to being on low ground. You also have to harass 1 and 3 o'clock. 2. Expand to towards the upper right corner. If you control the high ground plateau, you basically defend 4 bases with your main army without much movement. The expansion at 3 o'clock is also in reach and the expansion below the main base is easy to take as well because it's close to the rally point. It's harder to pressure with your main army that way but you got 2 routes for harass: one into the main and one to the bottom left. | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On October 17 2023 04:42 Ideas wrote: Also this final reminds me once again that I think(?) Bisu vs Savior in 2007(!) was the last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final lmao. At least in Premiere leagues ASL/MSL/OSL/KSL. Would you count Sonic Starleague premiere? Probably the highest calibre tournament for years in the post-Kespa era until KSL and ASL came to be. Bisu beat hero in season 9 (2014). Still almost 10 years ago, lol. | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
On October 17 2023 04:51 Miragee wrote: Would you count Sonic Starleague premiere? Probably the highest calibre tournament for years in the post-Kespa era until KSL and ASL came to be. Bisu beat hero in season 9 (2014). Still almost 10 years ago, lol. Yea I forget about SSL because I missed most of those but I would definitely count them. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL He will drop out early next season | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On October 17 2023 04:27 Miragee wrote: Yeah, I agree. Invader looks pretty good for ZvP endgame. From my perspective as a noob, when I look at the map 2 options for protoss come to mind: 1. If you expand like Mini, you have to secure at least one of the bottom left bases, too, better both. However, you have to play with a lot of reavers/storm for defense and try to control the center, which could be difficult due to being on low ground. You also have to harass 1 and 3 o'clock. 2. Expand to towards the upper right corner. If you control the high ground plateau, you basically defend 4 bases with your main army without much movement. The expansion at 3 o'clock is also in reach and the expansion below the main base is easy to take as well because it's close to the rally point. It's harder to pressure with your main army that way but you got 2 routes for harass: one into the main and one to the bottom left. Yeah come to think of it Invader is extremely good for Zerg once you secure the high ground with sunkens + lurkers. You just need one moment where Protoss isn't paying attention to set it up and the base is yours. | ||
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angryground
54 Posts
On October 18 2023 11:54 ShowTheLights wrote: Terrible finals and terrible result Soulkey did not deserve to win this ASL nice opinion lol | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
An overall very underwhelming tourney with many of the favorites getting knocked out too early | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12958 Posts
Mini looked pretty clueless in the late game tbh. Didn’t know what to do against the heavy lurker+defiler play from SK. I wish he went heavier storm rather than making so many archons in some of the games. But well deserved by SK. He outplayed Mini by a wide margin. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
On October 19 2023 07:47 RowdierBob wrote: Mini was poor imo. Soulkey had a very clear strategy to be conservative early to negate Mini creating chaos and bring it home with defilers in the late game. Mini looked pretty clueless in the late game tbh. Didn’t know what to do against the heavy lurker+defiler play from SK. I wish he went heavier storm rather than making so many archons in some of the games. But well deserved by SK. He outplayed Mini by a wide margin. i dont understand why more people dont try mass reaver | ||
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Artas1984
Lithuania116 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vRJUTRB.jpg) | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On October 19 2023 10:18 ShowTheLights wrote: i dont understand why more people dont try mass reaver Top players add reavers into their army more frequently nowadays. But it's not easy to mass them, they cost a lot of minerals and require strong protection. They also cost gas and that reduces the HT count. Reavers tend to be used in long games when the first few bases are getting mined out and the focus goes to the remaining fresh expansions. Until that point protoss needs to make sure not to die to multi-pronged attacks in wide open space, which is where reavers are at their worst. | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
On October 19 2023 07:40 ShowTheLights wrote: An overall very underwhelming tourney with many of the favorites getting knocked out too early Lmao whine whine whine guess they should have just cancelled the ASL once flash didn't show up to qualifiers | ||
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angryground
54 Posts
That being said, Mini played okay but not particularly good or anything. Maybe he wasn't "being Mini" enough. When the game isn't crazy, Soulkey is just straight up a better player. Besides, Soulkey feels really good at mind-games - that's basically how he won against Rush and how he got a lot of edges against Mini. Congrats to needmoney-boy, it's been a long time coming. It's sad they don't do third-place matches anymore. Rush vs Effort is something i'd love to watch (preferably in the finals lol). Feels like the next ASL is going to feel at least a little different in terms of lineup. Royal and Soma should go to army (Ruin probably as well, though he is not a regular in asl by any means). Action has retired for now. On the other hand, Effort and Rain are playing somewhat regularly, Calm seems to be on a good level. and then there is Flash lurking somewhere in the shadows. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
Great games anyway | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On October 20 2023 06:42 ajmbek wrote: I have learned many years ago that winning PvZ without storm drops is much harder. Mini did not a single one. Great games anyway Yeah exactly it’s one of the best late game moves from Protoss. Also the last game for one of the bases you don’t even need to storm drop, the HTs can storm the drones from the low ground and Mini didn’t even do that. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11044 Posts
On October 19 2023 22:11 Ideas wrote: Lmao whine whine whine guess they should have just cancelled the ASL once flash didn't show up to qualifiers Genuinely, it was one of the worst seasons in a good while. Not too many memorable ties this season. Everyone looked a bit... idk down a tier. Still some starcraft is better than none and there were a few beauties here and there. Here's to hoping for a better season 17! Mini's late game handling has always been a weakness. Fundamentally he had a misunderstanding and just went way too Archon heavy at the cost of useful storms. He needed a coach or someone to help him quickly between games. Soulkey got his money. | ||
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goody153
44064 Posts
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angryground
54 Posts
On October 20 2023 15:45 goody153 wrote: Anybody can recommend me which series this ASL was good ? (wanna watch them then watch the finals) Soulkey series against JyJ and Rush were very fun. There was a very unusual game between Effort and Action in ro24. Their series in ro8 was good as well, especially for ZvZ - the first two games at least. Calm games in Round of 16 were interesting. Protoss overall have not delivered this season, in my opinion. | ||
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goody153
44064 Posts
On October 20 2023 17:32 angryground wrote: Soulkey series against JyJ and Rush were very fun. There was a very unusual game between Effort and Action in ro24. Their series in ro8 was good as well, especially for ZvZ - the first two games at least. Calm games in Round of 16 were interesting. Protoss overall have not delivered this season, in my opinion. Thank you ! I'll check them out | ||
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Highways
Australia6100 Posts
Mini needs to use DT's way more to control the map | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey225 Posts
Effort Soma | ||
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