EPTOn August 16 2023 00:16 RogerChillingworth wrote:
ok ok, so zvz and hydra rushes in zvp are the 2 things that suck about brood war.
ok ok, so zvz and hydra rushes in zvp are the 2 things that suck about brood war.
You nailed it.
[ASL16] Ro24 Group B - Page 5
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Rainalcar
Croatia563 Posts
You nailed it. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia563 Posts
On August 16 2023 04:04 TMNT wrote: Just increase research time for Hydra range by 30 sec would do it. Or do something about the cannons... faster warping, more sturdiness while warping... something. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
Today Rain couldn't get a probe up on the ramp and Sea was maybe making 2 wrong clicks out of 24 which let a colony live on with 6 hp. How is that not awesome to watch? They had no strategic value but it was tense RTS all the way! I'm more likely to skip ahead in a standard mid-game game. Of course that makes those games that nail you to the chair for 30~40 minutes and invade your dreams, the most revered. But that's 2% and many times we get the other 98% | ||
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TMNT
3389 Posts
On August 16 2023 04:10 MaGic~PhiL wrote: havent watched more than the Rain vs Calm game.. but.. a Toss of Rains level scouting a 3 hatch (!!!!!!) before pool and still building cannon before core gotta be a joke. Even I as a max 2100 mmr Protoss know I can build a core before a cannon vs 3 hatch. Some1 can explain to me how a player of Rains caliber does not? He built a cannon before core vs 3 hatch before pool.. how is this .. "not doing anything wrong" I expect to know a 3 hatch before pool to be identifiable by a 1800 mmr toss .. yet a 2800 mmr, decorated Pro can not? what a joke I think the actual joke here is a max 2100 foreign Protoss calling the play of a multiple SL champion a joke. He already identified it way earlier by cancelling his Forge for a Nexus first build. By the time he built that Cannon, he hadn't mined gas yet and then he went for +1 before Stargate/Citadel, which means rushing the Core out earlier would serve no purpose. Instead he wanted the first Zealots to leave base immediately which makes the cannon a necessity (it's a delayed cannon compared to normal cannon timing of a Nexus first build anyway). But yeah you think you're smarter by cutting corners like Mini, but you don't seem to know what you can achieve from building that core before cannon do you? I was thinking what if Rain got storm done already when the hydras came, but then Calm could just micro them a bit to dodge the storm and then it'd be the same ending. So as someone said, it's essentially a BO win from Calm, but he did have to work for it. It's more or less similar to a cross spawn Nexus first 2 base Carrier win in PvT, but much easier. Calm pretty much won the game the moment Rain decided to not open with a Gateway. I think normally he would do Gate expand, but he probably thought Calm would cheese him with a 9 Pool or something like he did with Soulkey, because everyone including Calm himself knows that Calm wouldn't win in a straight up macro game. You can say he won the mind game here but essentially it's a toss up really. | ||
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Lazyer
United States402 Posts
Rain got a little unlucky not scouting the 2nd Overlord heading towards his natural, but w/ the econ advantage it was tough to defend anyway, he had 4 completed cannons when it came. SK did a good job picking off solitary cannons while the others were warping in, just a straight forward bust. Hope these games aren't an omen for the quality we'll see in the next 4 groups. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13535 Posts
Rain was tad unlucky vs Clam but he stuffed up a little vs Soulkey IMO. He was too slow cannoning up once he he saw the hydra bust coming. Debateable if he would've held anyway but if he got more cannons warping in faster he might've held. But a well executed hydra bust is a bitch for Protoss players. It's such a fine margin if you hold or die. | ||
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avanhokie
50 Posts
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2755 Posts
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Simplistik
2173 Posts
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iopq
United States1190 Posts
On August 16 2023 05:36 Rainalcar wrote: Or do something about the cannons... faster warping, more sturdiness while warping... something. If they warped in faster you wouldn't be able to stop a cannon rush with a hatch first How about play on maps that have ramps going up for the natural? Map making already nerfed 973 | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria387 Posts
Props to Calm for actually planning out his games. Everybody else didn't do their homework. Sea clowning it in ofc. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On August 16 2023 07:53 TMNT wrote: I think the actual joke here is a max 2100 foreign Protoss calling the play of a multiple SL champion a joke. He already identified it way earlier by cancelling his Forge for a Nexus first build. By the time he built that Cannon, he hadn't mined gas yet and then he went for +1 before Stargate/Citadel, which means rushing the Core out earlier would serve no purpose. Instead he wanted the first Zealots to leave base immediately which makes the cannon a necessity (it's a delayed cannon compared to normal cannon timing of a Nexus first build anyway). But yeah you think you're smarter by cutting corners like Mini, but you don't seem to know what you can achieve from building that core before cannon do you? I was thinking what if Rain got storm done already when the hydras came, but then Calm could just micro them a bit to dodge the storm and then it'd be the same ending. So as someone said, it's essentially a BO win from Calm, but he did have to work for it. It's more or less similar to a cross spawn Nexus first 2 base Carrier win in PvT, but much easier. Calm pretty much won the game the moment Rain decided to not open with a Gateway. I think normally he would do Gate expand, but he probably thought Calm would cheese him with a 9 Pool or something like he did with Soulkey, because everyone including Calm himself knows that Calm wouldn't win in a straight up macro game. You can say he won the mind game here but essentially it's a toss up really. Rain definitely had too few cannons, he lacked scouting and thus intel.. OBVIOUSLY I am not on the level of Rain at all. The fact you think that this is part of my point is a bit weird. If you really think Rain made no mistakes that game and lost because PvZ is inherently imbalanced then all that is left is to agree to disagree. I do not think ZvP is inherently imbalanced and I do not think Rain played that game flawless. In fact I think he played poorly and thus lost. Rain failed to scout properly. Lost the scouting probe. Sent a 2nd probe at a time that was too late to react to new intel. The thing I can sympathize with .. is that Rain probably put the odds of Calm going 3 hatch before pool at sth like 1:100.. Other than that.. I dont mind to disagree. Fine with me  | ||
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Artas1984
156 Posts
On August 15 2023 19:53 Kaolla wrote: I mean, no idea how he even qualified playing like this. He was lucky - he went through Pusan and Hoorang to get into ASL16... Pusan is just old rust and Hoorang i would put on Sea's level.. For me this was the most exciting group - two SC & SC2 gods in Rain and Soulkey versus two underdogs in Calm & Sea who were finally returning to ASL after a long break. Funny how one of them came up with perfect build plans (Calm) and the other prepared ''whatever happens'' builds (Sea). What was particularly interesting about this group was that both Calm and Sea are know as some of the most outspoken ''commentators'' in the Starcraft community, who like to be on the spotlight and bitch on everything. It's sad that we did not get to see them fight each other. I can not wait to see a reaction video from other pros (mostly Flash's) about this B group, i hope there will be one. On August 16 2023 00:54 QOGQOG wrote: Honestly, the only terrible games were from Sea. If one has a bad game, the other has a good game and it is entertaining! Sea's matches had me laughing and that is what counts. I don't care how bad his games actually were. If people like M3t4PhYzX can not watch ''bad games'' and only bitch about them, making multiple complaining posts, then i suggest don't watch Starcraft at all. Try to find entertainment value even in bad games, for without them Starcraft would be way more boring. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
On August 16 2023 20:07 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Rain definitely had too few cannons, he lacked scouting and thus intel.. OBVIOUSLY I am not on the level of Rain at all. The fact you think that this is part of my point is a bit weird. If you really think Rain made no mistakes that game and lost because PvZ is inherently imbalanced then all that is left is to agree to disagree. I do not think ZvP is inherently imbalanced and I do not think Rain played that game flawless. In fact I think he played poorly and thus lost. Rain failed to scout properly. Lost the scouting probe. Sent a 2nd probe at a time that was too late to react to new intel. The thing I can sympathize with .. is that Rain probably put the odds of Calm going 3 hatch before pool at sth like 1:100.. Other than that.. I dont mind to disagree. Fine with me i like this guy to be honest 3 hatch hydra, for me, isn't necessarily a thing of balance. it's just kinda cringe to watch it go down again and again. it feels like zerg has total control of what happens for several minutes. and like seeing the forge get killed with +1 every single time is a bit of a groundhog day moment. would just like it to be a less frequently occuring build with perhaps something else that's a little less face-roll to replace it. now that said, i feel like protoss gains the advantage later on, and also power spikes immediately with leg speed in most cases, so it's definitely an ebb-and flow kinda deal. but still. hydra busts just come along too often and i'm sure it's pretty infuriating for the toss to be more anxious than a squirrel every game. gz on being 2100. that's definitely a big accomplishment in my eyes, sir! | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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TMNT
3389 Posts
On August 17 2023 22:39 outscar wrote: Wow Sea played like true degen! I didn't care if he gets out of this group or not but qualifying for ASL after such long hiatus and giving absolutely dogshit games, for a player of his caliber and legacy it must be shameful. Sea you better go back streaming! To be fair to him, he's much better than that, as shown in his proleague and spon games in recent months. In fact Calm is no stronger than Sea, but it just worked out for him (matchup, luck, opponent). But yeah, he just had a fest with girls right after the game, and then came back to his studio watching the reactions of other players to his games and laughed. So did Rain. None of them really cares. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile163 Posts
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Simplistik
2173 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
On August 17 2023 23:13 TMNT wrote: None of them really cares. That's quite sad. It's an event that occurs twice a year so why not give your 100%? I'm sure Sea gets twice or triple amount of prize money in balloons in month and Rain must be chilling on LoL - the state of korean BW right now. | ||
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