[ASL16] Ro24 Group B

[ASL16] Ro24 Group B - Page 6

RogerChillingworth

Chad3132 Posts

August 17 2023 18:38 GMT

#101

On August 17 2023 23:45 Galacsia wrote:
I disagree with y'all, Calm earned his win against Rain. He prepared, made a plan and executed it correctly.

I agree with you.

Calm played great. He looked like a monster in those games. The probe kill, the block, the micro, the killer instinct. He came prepared, shouted This Is Sparta, and that was that.

moktira

Ireland1548 Posts

August 19 2023 18:00 GMT

#102

PvZ used be my favourite matchup but with seeing so many Hydrabusts the last few years it's just gotten really painful to watch....

TMNT

3246 Posts

August 22 2023 20:22 GMT

#103

On August 16 2023 20:07 MaGic~PhiL wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 16 2023 07:53 TMNT wrote:

On August 16 2023 04:10 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
havent watched more than the Rain vs Calm game.. but.. a Toss of Rains level scouting a 3 hatch (!!!!!!) before pool and still building cannon before core gotta be a joke.

Even I as a max 2100 mmr Protoss know I can build a core before a cannon vs 3 hatch. Some1 can explain to me how a player of Rains caliber does not?

On August 15 2023 20:37 TMNT wrote:
The Calm vs Rain game is one of those ZvP games that you can say the P does nothing wrong but still loses. P doesn't even try to be greedy or take any risk. He just loses because the matchup is designed like that. And that's why P is the worst race.

He built a cannon before core vs 3 hatch before pool.. how is this .. "not doing anything wrong"

I expect to know a 3 hatch before pool to be identifiable by a 1800 mmr toss .. yet a 2800 mmr, decorated Pro can not?

what a joke

I think the actual joke here is a max 2100 foreign Protoss calling the play of a multiple SL champion a joke.

He already identified it way earlier by cancelling his Forge for a Nexus first build. By the time he built that Cannon, he hadn't mined gas yet and then he went for +1 before Stargate/Citadel, which means rushing the Core out earlier would serve no purpose. Instead he wanted the first Zealots to leave base immediately which makes the cannon a necessity (it's a delayed cannon compared to normal cannon timing of a Nexus first build anyway). But yeah you think you're smarter by cutting corners like Mini, but you don't seem to know what you can achieve from building that core before cannon do you?

I was thinking what if Rain got storm done already when the hydras came, but then Calm could just micro them a bit to dodge the storm and then it'd be the same ending. So as someone said, it's essentially a BO win from Calm, but he did have to work for it. It's more or less similar to a cross spawn Nexus first 2 base Carrier win in PvT, but much easier.

Calm pretty much won the game the moment Rain decided to not open with a Gateway. I think normally he would do Gate expand, but he probably thought Calm would cheese him with a 9 Pool or something like he did with Soulkey, because everyone including Calm himself knows that Calm wouldn't win in a straight up macro game. You can say he won the mind game here but essentially it's a toss up really.

Rain definitely had too few cannons, he lacked scouting and thus intel.. OBVIOUSLY I am not on the level of Rain at all. The fact you think that this is part of my point is a bit weird.

If you really think Rain made no mistakes that game and lost because PvZ is inherently imbalanced then all that is left is to agree to disagree.

I do not think ZvP is inherently imbalanced and I do not think Rain played that game flawless. In fact I think he played poorly and thus lost.

Rain failed to scout properly. Lost the scouting probe. Sent a 2nd probe at a time that was too late to react to new intel.

The thing I can sympathize with .. is that Rain probably put the odds of Calm going 3 hatch before pool at sth like 1:100..

Other than that.. I dont mind to disagree. Fine with me

I advise you to rewatch the game and pause when needed because what you're saying here is wrong and your understanding of this game is lacking.

- Rain cancelled his Forge to go for a Nexus first build. What more of a reaction could he do? Can't be more greedy than that.

- He built the Cannon before the Core because that map has 2 paths leading to the natural. It's not your normal map with standard 2 gap wall in, so surprised Rain knows better than a 2100 Protoss huh? Also his Cannon finished at the same time his 1st Zealot popped (and went straight to Zerg's base), so without the Cannon he risked dying to Lings (and even with it he could die as well but he took a risk there sending the zealot immediately for intel)

- The 1st zealot distracted the lings so the 2nd scouting probe sneaked in and saw the Hydra Den right when it finished. He also saw the 4th Hatch as well. In short he scouted the Hydra Den before Stargate even finished. What more could you ask for?

Eventually he died because 4 cannons were still too few for a 4H Hydra bust at the 7th minute. Maybe his mistake was building too few cannon lol but I'm sure if he built enough to survive the initial bust he'd die another way later. Just watch the offrace game today between Snow (Z) vs Soma (P) on that exact map with both players going for the exact openings as Calm vs Rain. Granted the builds were a bit different after the opening but you can see how absurdly powerful 3H before Pool can be.

Sabu113

United States11089 Posts

August 24 2023 18:58 GMT

#104

Calm was amazing. Very excited to see more. He looked so sharp.

Man I hate hydra busts. They just feel like the least sophisticated play that gets consistent results

To be fair, pvz is such a bizarre matchup that only Mini ever looks particularly dominant. Every other Protoss could lose any match. They talked about soulkey zvz but pvz murders good toss. Map issues?

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