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On March 28 2022 23:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2022 22:22 EndingLife wrote:
No but it's still a better chance at winning than a normal game lol ??? Did you help me make my build? I post here, I can speak for myself.
???
"KwarK that guy lol.If mihu was not at 11 o'clock,will his rush work"
THAT guy... HIS rush... He wasn't asking you.
This is a public forum. I post here as well. I can speak for myself and give my opinion.
As for your 100% theorycrafting win conditions, highly unlikely. Not against Mihu. Somehow, someway, he'd sniff it out most of the time and your early scouting and probable probe cuts will put you too far behind economically.
Anyhow, it was a good build and a great gamble.
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It's just a gamble，This is a normal countermeasure in the face of opponents who are stronger than themselves
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United States43979 Posts
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To say that you are gambling does not mean that you have no other coping strategies, but if Mihu is not at 11 o'clock, your situation will be more backward and you have a chance to beat Mihu at 11 o'clock.
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United States43979 Posts
On March 29 2022 11:15 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
To say that you are gambling does not mean that you have no other coping strategies, but if Mihu is not at 11 o'clock, your situation will be more backward and you have a chance to beat Mihu at 11 o'clock.
I actually think the 3 gate goon rush is stronger. It’s theoretically possible to hold the zealots with a good sim city, first scout early scv, and immediate bunker.
I’m happy if I spawn 3 and he’s not 11 when I check it. Not really any point arguing it here though, the only people who have actually played it are Mad, Terror, and I. Anyone else is theorycrafting, the 3 of us tested it.
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On March 28 2022 23:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2022 22:16 Rovant1c wrote:
KwarK that guy lol.If mihu was not at 11 o'clock,will his rush work？ 100% will work There was 6 spawn combinations and I had 6 strategies worked out. The timing of the scout probe checking mins allows for it to be hidden in the main of 7 if no depot at ramp and gas steal if depot at ramp. If he was 7 the transition was 8p10g12a13c15p goon goon range send probe to nat (faking FE) while hidden probe at 7 (it’s a huge main) pylons. Goon clears scout scv around nex timing but instead of 400 mins nex it’s pylon and double gate inside his main at 7. 3 gate goon with range is unstoppable there. I didn’t have time to practice properly because I’m permanently exhausted due to baby and work and my brain cannot play bw while sleep deprived. Also I was in El Paso for work for the second half of the week and spent half of Saturday driving home. Proper games are a waste of time in that state, if I did 1v1s I’d spend the first 7 minutes expand openers I already knew then die to letting vults in or whatever because my brain turned off. But I did have time to theorycraft and put some ideas together. Dentarg, JoJo, and Rancor in Ash helped me with the proof of concept stuff and finding the mineral scout spots last week. Mad and Terror helped me fine tune it (terror spent like 3 hours playing that opener over and over with me Saturday night). There was no luck involved, Terran can’t hold what I built for Monopoly. Lost my nerve on Metaverse though. Went for eco cheese (12n 14g 15p 16a no 2nd gate no probe cut 1 zealot into goon) and should have been insanely ahead vs fact expand. Had I had a plan it would have been quick third then 8 gate storm into carrier but I panicked and cut probes in an attempt to close it early. Silly loss but is what it is. Not saying I would have won but that was a dream opener for P and I didn’t make the best use of it. Game 3 the plan was to bait a bunker rush. If he watched rep of game 2 he would have been like “wtf was your plan if I rushed this nexus you have literally nothing this opener was insanely greedy”. I went into a defensive 12 nex on a 2p map hoping for a bunker rush. That is a comfort build for me, I can do it in my sleep which is good given the lack of effective prep. Mihu didn’t take the bait and I was left super behind due to it. Part of my issue in tournaments is that I’m a ladder warrior and I don’t cheese on ladder because I think it’s bad practice. When it’s time to play tournament games I don’t have that foundation of cheese experience, if I go cheese builds there’s a good chance that my opponent is far more familiar with holding the cheese than I am with doing it. I put a lot of thought into gas steal openers (eclipse and butter both in the pool) but I’ve basically never done one and I have no idea what the correct adaptations are vs 2nd rax, skip rax T cuts scv to grab gas before steal, bunker expand many scvs killing assimilator, bunker expand marines kill assimilator later, etc. etc. There are like 20 minor variations of how it can play out and I don’t know them well enough to recognize, let alone know the counter build. When I get some time though I’ll try to learn gas steal.
Well, it looked terrible, cant imagine you can win a real macro game at S level with this perfomance. Would like to see a showmatch vs steve and might donate some, if it gets organized. Iirc he agreed in bsl twitch chat during the cast.
No offense, but it looked like both foreigners can not even build probes properly and got rekt by the chinese player, disappointing day for foreigners.
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It is also a good thing that the participation of Chinese players has improved the level of the competition。
In fact, there are about 10 strong Chinese players who have not participated in this competition。
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On March 29 2022 19:48 BBV_SC wrote:
Well, it looked terrible, cant imagine you can win a real macro game at S level with this perfomance. Would like to see a showmatch vs steve and might donate some, if it gets organized. Iirc he agreed in bsl twitch chat during the cast.
No offense, but it looked like both foreigners can not even build probes properly and got rekt by the chinese player, disappointing day for foreigners.
He literally won a macro game against Gypsy in R24. No point saying no offense when your post is obnoxious and... just dumb.
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On March 29 2022 11:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2022 11:15 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
To say that you are gambling does not mean that you have no other coping strategies, but if Mihu is not at 11 o'clock, your situation will be more backward and you have a chance to beat Mihu at 11 o'clock. I actually think the 3 gate goon rush is stronger. It’s theoretically possible to hold the zealots with a good sim city, first scout early scv, and immediate bunker. I’m happy if I spawn 3 and he’s not 11 when I check it. Not really any point arguing it here though, the only people who have actually played it are Mad, Terror, and I. Anyone else is theorycrafting, the 3 of us tested it.
You can't place 100% win conditions on the game if he's at 7 though. Nothing against terror or mad, but mihu is on another level. His TvP is very very good, some of the best I've seen in a while. There's too many factors to consider to say it's a 100% win. Let's say he doesn't scout your proxy gates and they get up but he does get a scout of your timings in your main. If you attack with first two goons from the proxy gate, you auto lose. Scvs will surround and own you with whatever units he has. His micro is MUCH better than yours. If you wait for 4, that's more time for him to scout and figure out what you're doing. He might figure out what you're doing when you have 2 goons done and 2 on the way. In that case, you'll get surrounded and be in a bad position as well. He'll have more scvs than you have probes, so even if he loses quite a few, you're still behind economically. So what was your plan, wait for 2, 4 or 6 goons? What was your plan if he went rax cc? What was your plan if he went 14 cc? If mihu does either of these two openings you're way too far behind to come back in a normal game and forced to do some midgame all in. Again... good build and gamble. Sure he might completely misread the situation and your proxy gate goons in his main COULD work. It's just very unlikely.
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United States43979 Posts
On March 29 2022 22:26 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2022 11:20 KwarK wrote:On March 29 2022 11:15 [JXSA].Zergling wrote:
To say that you are gambling does not mean that you have no other coping strategies, but if Mihu is not at 11 o'clock, your situation will be more backward and you have a chance to beat Mihu at 11 o'clock. I actually think the 3 gate goon rush is stronger. It’s theoretically possible to hold the zealots with a good sim city, first scout early scv, and immediate bunker. I’m happy if I spawn 3 and he’s not 11 when I check it. Not really any point arguing it here though, the only people who have actually played it are Mad, Terror, and I. Anyone else is theorycrafting, the 3 of us tested it. You can't place 100% win conditions on the game if he's at 7 though. Nothing against terror or mad, but mihu is on another level. His TvP is very very good, some of the best I've seen in a while. There's too many factors to consider to say it's a 100% win. Let's say he doesn't scout your proxy gates and they get up but he does get a scout of your timings in your main. If you attack with first two goons from the proxy gate, you auto lose. Scvs will surround and own you with whatever units he has. His micro is MUCH better than yours. If you wait for 4, that's more time for him to scout and figure out what you're doing. He might figure out what you're doing when you have 2 goons done and 2 on the way. In that case, you'll get surrounded and be in a bad position as well. He'll have more scvs than you have probes, so even if he loses quite a few, you're still behind economically. So what was your plan, wait for 2, 4 or 6 goons? What was your plan if he went rax cc? What was your plan if he went 14 cc? If mihu does either of these two openings you're way too far behind to come back in a normal game and forced to do some midgame all in. Again... good build and gamble. Sure he might completely misread the situation and your proxy gate goons in his main COULD work. It's just very unlikely.
Your theorycrafting is not relevant to my actual testing.
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On March 28 2022 23:20 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 28 2022 22:16 Rovant1c wrote:
KwarK that guy lol.If mihu was not at 11 o'clock,will his rush work？ 100% will work There was 6 spawn combinations and I had 6 strategies worked out. The timing of the scout probe checking mins allows for it to be hidden in the main of 7 if no depot at ramp and gas steal if depot at ramp. If he was 7 the transition was 8p10g12a13c15p goon goon range send probe to nat (faking FE) while hidden probe at 7 (it’s a huge main) pylons. Goon clears scout scv around nex timing but instead of 400 mins nex it’s pylon and double gate inside his main at 7. 3 gate goon with range is unstoppable there. I didn’t have time to practice properly because I’m permanently exhausted due to baby and work and my brain cannot play bw while sleep deprived. Also I was in El Paso for work for the second half of the week and spent half of Saturday driving home. Proper games are a waste of time in that state, if I did 1v1s I’d spend the first 7 minutes expand openers I already knew then die to letting vults in or whatever because my brain turned off. But I did have time to theorycraft and put some ideas together. Dentarg, JoJo, and Rancor in Ash helped me with the proof of concept stuff and finding the mineral scout spots last week. Mad and Terror helped me fine tune it (terror spent like 3 hours playing that opener over and over with me Saturday night). There was no luck involved, Terran can’t hold what I built for Monopoly. Lost my nerve on Metaverse though. Went for eco cheese (12n 14g 15p 16a no 2nd gate no probe cut 1 zealot into goon) and should have been insanely ahead vs fact expand. Had I had a plan it would have been quick third then 8 gate storm into carrier but I panicked and cut probes in an attempt to close it early. Silly loss but is what it is. Not saying I would have won but that was a dream opener for P and I didn’t make the best use of it. Game 3 the plan was to bait a bunker rush. If he watched rep of game 2 he would have been like “wtf was your plan if I rushed this nexus you have literally nothing this opener was insanely greedy”. I went into a defensive 12 nex on a 2p map hoping for a bunker rush. That is a comfort build for me, I can do it in my sleep which is good given the lack of effective prep. Mihu didn’t take the bait and I was left super behind due to it. Part of my issue in tournaments is that I’m a ladder warrior and I don’t cheese on ladder because I think it’s bad practice. When it’s time to play tournament games I don’t have that foundation of cheese experience, if I go cheese builds there’s a good chance that my opponent is far more familiar with holding the cheese than I am with doing it. I put a lot of thought into gas steal openers (eclipse and butter both in the pool) but I’ve basically never done one and I have no idea what the correct adaptations are vs 2nd rax, skip rax T cuts scv to grab gas before steal, bunker expand many scvs killing assimilator, bunker expand marines kill assimilator later, etc. etc. There are like 20 minor variations of how it can play out and I don’t know them well enough to recognize, let alone know the counter build. When I get some time though I’ll try to learn gas steal.
ty for the insightful lengthy explanation. we don't get this kind of explanation from high level players in the foreign scene very often afaik and i appreciate it
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EPT
