EPTHow much is left in this? Will they televise some of the better games later?
8/20 PSL (OGN Offline Qualifiers) - Page 26
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Manifesto7
Osaka27168 Posts
How much is left in this? Will they televise some of the better games later? | ||
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27168 Posts
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GTR
51556 Posts
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DD-FRIeZa
Croatia91 Posts
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
On August 21 2007 01:35 Live2Win wrote: Short Update; Group winners (and upsets) + Show Spoiler + Group A: Sea.Jy (Z-CJ) (ForGG, MinGu out) Group B: Calm (Z-STX) (ZergMan out) Group C: Much (P-CJ) (Qoo)Max out) Group D: Hiya (T-Lecaf) (Casy, Sheis, oDin out) Group E: Hogil (Z-OGN) (GoRush, GooDFriend out) Group F: Canata (T-SKT1) (Justin, Jangbi, Foru, Silent_Control out) Group G: Flower (Z-OGN) (Oov, Nal_keke, Shine[Name] out) Group H: YellOw[ArnC] (Z-OGN) (Kingdom, ChoJJa out) Group I: 910[Ete] (T-MBC) (Ra, MuMyung out) Group J: Raid (Z-KTF) (Free, BoxeR out) Group K: Midas (T-SKT1) (YellOw, TheManiaMST out) Group L: AnyTime (P-Lecaf) (Hery[HyO], ZeuS out) Group M: XellOs (T-CJ) (Junwi, Dongrae, Clon out) Group N: SkyHigh[fOu] (T-CJ) (Silver, SoO out) Group O: Best[HyO] (P-SKT1) (FBH, Lucifer[Name], Cool[fOu] out) Group P: Rumble (Z-SKT1) (PuSan, JJu, Child out) Group Q: n.Die_Jaehoon (P-MBC) (Ever)P(TT, Chalrenge out) Group R: Sync (T-KTF) (Tester out) Race Distribution + Show Spoiler + Z: 7 T: 7 P: 4 On August 21 2007 02:37 SonuvBob wrote: Star Challenge groups: + Show Spoiler + ◆Star Challenge 2007 Season2 ▶Group A Luxury (Z) vs Much (P) 910[Ete] (T) vs by.raid (Z) ▶Group B Reach (P) vs Sea.Jy (Z) YellOw[ArnC] (Z) vs HiyA[fOu] (T) ▶Group C BackHo[WHITE] (P) vs Rumble (Z) NsP_Flower (Z) vs Sync (T) ▶Group D Shark (Z) vs Midas (T) XellOs (T) vs Anytime (P) ▶Group E Yooi (T) vs HoGiL (Z) n.Die_Jaehoon (P) vs Canata (T) ▶Group F Sea[Shield] (T) vs BeSt[HyO] (P) InteR.Calm (Z) vs SkyHigh[fOu] (T) Source: http://www.fighterforum.com/news/news_read.asp?cat=ONG&idx=20512 | ||
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Aepplet
Sweden2908 Posts
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GTR
51556 Posts
I also don't think Jaehoon, Flower and Hogil have played a televised 1v1, but 2v2, yes. | ||
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GTR
51556 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Sync 2-0ed Kal who is actually a good Protoss. Shouldnt have a problem with BackHo then. And the two Zergs are definitely beatable. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 22 2007 15:24 tfeign wrote: You're now discrediting Anytime's wins because they are Proleague games? Where have I discredited them? I have not at all discounted them. Merely, I pointed out the truth: individual league wins are more impressive. Simply put, you are stuck spreading your time and energy between multiple maps, multiple match-ups and the full spectrum of player types. My argument is simple: Anytime does not show himself to be a consistent killer, a player universally dominant across the board. Bisu, Stork, Savior, and Hwasin all are. Anytime shows flashes of brilliance at times, throwing down against the best of them at times, but most of the time he plays at a fairly average level. Viewing only proleague results and saying that this is indicative of his overall skill is fallacious, since a flash of brilliance can mean dominating one particular map, much like Anytime has done with Nemesis. AND SO DOES THE OTHER TEAM! Why is your argument so one-sided? Of course, a team is going to send out their best player on a map he's confident in, but that doesn't happen with one team. That happens with BOTH. Other players who are considered top tier along with Anytime have LEAGUE MATCHES to prepare for. The fact that Anytime does not gives him a huge advantage over these players. Most of the players Anytime faces who are not in individual leagues are not at all top tier. In fact, to be precise, I only see one name I'd consider to be top tier in Anytime's proleague results who is not qualifying for leagues: Chojja, who is in a MAJOR slump right now with his stats for this year being 5-12 (29.4%). The only other player who even might be considered top tier would be ForU, but IMO he has not been remotely top tier for years and so far this year he has only played 5 games, winning just 1 of them. He's past his prime and I would EXPECT a player of Anytime's caliber to beat ForU. The fact that in the individual leagues, players do not get to choose their maps increases the luck factor, and decreases the skill factor. A player might get unlucky and be forced to play on an imbalanced map that doesn't tell a whole lot. The winner of a game may not always be the better player. The fact that in Proleague matches, players do get to choose their maps decreases the luck factor, and increases the skill factor because both players are playing on a map they're both confident with. The winner of a game is much more likely a better player. EXCUSE ME?! ARE YOU SAYING STARLEAGUES ARE WON ON LUCK?!?!?!?!?! If you honestly believe that crap, go commit suicide asap and rid this world of your stupidity. Playing games on one map does not give you an accurate picture of a player's skills. A gamer who is unusually strong on just one map and not particularly amazing elsewhere is not of the same caliber as a well-rounded player. Not to mention that Anytime only has those two maps he prepares for on a weekly basis while a player in the starleagues is training more strategies and builds for more maps. That doesn't mean that the "luck factor is removed thereby making it a fair game." What that DOES mean is that Anytime is going into the games with an advantage, especially considering that Nemesis (his dominant map) wasn't even used for either starleague. ------------------------------------------------------ Below is a sort of case study, if you will, taking your assumptions about Anytime's form and applying them to Boxer from between mid 2004 and the end of 2005. -------------------------------------------------------- What you are doing is akin to looking at Boxer's skill purely based on Requiem and R-Point. R-Point: 11-3 (78.6%) vP 5-2 (71.4%) vT 3-1 (75%) vZ 3-0 (100%) Requeim: 11-3 (78.6%) vP 1-2 (33.3%) vT 5-0 (100%) vZ 5-1 (83.3%) Overall: 22-6 (78.6%) vP 6-4 (60%) vT 8-1 (88.9%) vZ 8-1 (88.9%) Tell me, do you actually think that this paints an accurate picture of Boxer's statistics? Boxer's games from Requiem can be found mainly in the latter half of 2004 and his games from R-Point can be found mainly in the latter half of 2005. During this timeframe, (June 1st, 2004 to January 1st, 2006) Boxer's stats were: Overall: 72-52 (58.1%) vP 25-26 (49.0%) vT 20-12 (62.5%) vZ 27-14 (65.9%) These stats are still very good (even without Requiem and R-Point, Boxer was doing better than 50% wins during this era despite the large number of games played on those two maps), but quite a bit lower. The most dominant player from this era was without question Iloveoov. His overall stats were 102-64 (61.5%). Throughout this timeframe, Oov was a dominant force on the KeSPA rankings as well as the champion of no less than three Starleagues (not to mention thta achieved 3rd place in two additional leagues). Oov's overall win% is not substantially better than Boxer's was (the difference is statistically significant, but the difference itself is fairly small) and while Boxer dominated 2 maps completely, Oov was more diversified in where he achieved his wins. If we take Boxer's games only from Requiem and R-Point, his statistics would indicate a player above Oov in caliber, which he clearly was not during this timeframe. ---------------------------------------------- The difference between Anytime's current results and Boxer's results from this era is that Boxer was playing many games on other maps as well and doing fairly well on them (better than 50% wins). Consequently, Boxer actually WAS qualifying for the majors, played a more diverse map set and opponent set (and dare I say it, a HARDER set of gamers) and doing quite well. His accomplishments during this timeframe (late 04 through 05): 2nd place 2005 So1 OnGameNet StarLeague 2nd place 2004 EVER OnGameNet StarLeague 1st place 2004 G-Voice OnGameNet Challenge League According to you, we can take Anytime's proleague results at face value and they paint an equally accurate picture of Anytime's current form as Boxer's results over that timeframe indicate for him. What are Anytime's recent accomplishments? Aside from being a solid proleague ace, he has none. Anytime's past 25 games taken at face value would mean that Anytime right now is a stronger presence on the world stage than Boxer or Oov was for that given timeframe. This is clearly not the case. --------------------------------------------------- You did a similar thing with Chojja. You said that his matches on 815 should be ignored because of map imbalance, focusing heavily on his matches on Rush Hour, a map he was strong on. These maps were used for both leagues, and yet Savior was the player who made all the Terrans shit bricks. Chojja's ZvT on Rush Hour was at least as good as Saviors, but Savior was far more competent on 815, which gave him a huge advantage. In the end, that Savior's more well-rounded dominance in ZvT pushed him through and even today he is the top Zerg while Chojja has fallen out of the KeSPA top 30 as he has failed to qualify for either starleague and produced a very average 5-5 record in proleague so far this year (in fact, ALL his wins from this year are proleague). It's far, far harder to do well in the starleague as it forces players to diversify their builds and strategies to accommodate a wider map selection and wider opponent selection (both in terms of style and race). Winning an OSL with a record of 12-7 (2-1 group, 2-1 ro16, 2-1 ro8, 3-2 ro4, 3-2 champ, 63.2%) is far, far, far, FAR more impressive than Anytime's 16-9 statistics in his past 25 games. Simply put, you're preparing for too many more possibilities. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 22 2007 15:42 Manifesto7 wrote: Are the final result anywhere or do I read a 25 page thread? Sonuvbob posted the selections for StarChallenge: + Show Spoiler + ◆Star Challenge 2007 Season2 ▶Group A Luxury (Z) vs Much (P) 910[Ete] (T) vs by.raid (Z) ▶Group B Reach (P) vs Sea.Jy (Z) YellOw[ArnC] (Z) vs HiyA[fOu] (T) ▶Group C BackHo[WHITE] (P) vs Rumble (Z) NsP_Flower (Z) vs Sync (T) ▶Group D Shark (Z) vs Midas (T) XellOs (T) vs Anytime (P) ▶Group E Yooi (T) vs HoGiL (Z) n.Die_Jaehoon (P) vs Canata (T) ▶Group F Sea[Shield] (T) vs BeSt[HyO] (P) InteR.Calm (Z) vs SkyHigh[fOu] (T) RESULTS OF PSL: Group A -> Jy B -> Calm C -> Much D -> Hiya E -> Hogil F -> Canata G -> Flower H -> Yarnc I -> 910 J -> Raid K -> Midas L -> Anytime M -> Xellos N -> SkyHigh O -> Best | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
"In straight-up game playing, he is not the image of a champion" dude... he is a champion, he won a starleague and came in 2nd in one, there are very few protoss players who have achived more than that. and claiming he cant win straight-up is just plain ignorance, I suggest you watch the two starleague finals he played in then come back here and tell me how many of those games were build order wins. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
He came in 2nd in one and then DISAPPEARED. I'd rate Nal_Ra, Kingdom and Reach far above Anytime in overall skill because he really was just a one hit wonder. Just LOOK at the his stats. Can you honestly believe that's the record of someone with championship material at the current time? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On August 23 2007 04:03 Ace wrote: No Anytime is not championship material anymore. Stop living in the glory days. Sync won a Starleague also but do you see everyone around here claiming he's still one of the best? He came in 2nd in one and then DISAPPEARED. I'd rate Nal_Ra, Kingdom and Reach far above Anytime in overall skill because he really was just a one hit wonder. Just LOOK at the his stats. Can you honestly believe that's the record of someone with championship material at the current time? Kingdom?? I wouldnt rate him far above anytime >.< | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
He's not a shitty player. But rather than being a true champion (and I don't mean that in terms of being a starleague winner, but in terms of being DOMINANT on the professional scene as a WHOLE), he's a wildcard, pulling off brilliant wins one moment and then getting knocked to the lowest levels of qualification the next. This is my whole point about him and I think a lot of people rate him based on when he's "on" rather than looking at the bigger picture. And as for his current skill level, a good record in the proleague isn't going to convince me that he's "on" at the level he would need to win even OSC, let alone OSL. Edit: I feel like clarifying something. I don't mean that Anytime is a streaky player, because he's not really that either. NaDa would be a streaky player, but even when he's "off" he is among the most challenging of opponents you could face, and even when he doesn't have a special strategy planned, he's an opponent to be feared. Everyone has ups and downs, slumps and high points. Anytime will do a lot and then do nothing. In Anytime's case, he needs to pick the right set of strategies out to truly do amazingly well. These strategies don't always include unique builds never seen before, but are often not truly "standard play." The difference though between Anytime doing this and Ra doing this is that Anytime seems to need to practice things out carefully to get the exact timing done, whereas Ra and Boxer are guys who can come up with brilliant plays on the fly. In spur of the moment decision making, Anytime is not a genius. Anytime is not as flexible and not as capable at throwing down a standard game, thus I believe firmly that he is on a tier down from Ra, Reach or Kingdom as well as Stork and Bisu, who are quickly joining those three as solid champions of Protoss. This sense I have gotten is reinforced by comments he makes during interviews, most notably by his comments about the planning of builds and his practice schedule. He's a hardworker and quite skilled, but he's missing the well-roundedness he needs to truly champion his race (or in other words, DOMINATE). Unlike streaky players, Anytime doesn't reach the height of his capacity and then stand on top of the mountain screaming "I am the king!" Instead, when he climbs the mountain he slips off and is forced to look for another long, winding trail to the top. His determination to do that more than once is highly commendible and most likely beyond almost everyone else, but until he can really make his stand at the top, I will always have reservations about him. Anytime is so successful in the proleague because he is solid on Monty Hall and Nemesis he has figured out completely. In the individual leagues, he has faltered. Against KeSPA top 30 ranked opponents, he has often faltered. His KeSPA rank is a fairly accurate indicator of where he stands right now, and it's not top 10. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2934 Posts
Sometimes its wins out of build order, other times its like Casy... never facing a protoss. | ||
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