EPT8/20 PSL (OGN Offline Qualifiers) - Page 25
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IdrA.Media
United States115 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Anytime isn't overrated. None of you paid attention to his PL season! Take away PvT and Anytime is amazing. Add in PvT and Anytime is... well... he's Anytime. | ||
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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Pressure
7326 Posts
casy got 0-2'd fucking hiya | ||
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Jonteman
Sweden644 Posts
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ShoutAbout
Brazil177 Posts
Btw, Chalrenge FTW! | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
PvT 35-35 (50.0%) PvZ 29-28 (50.9%) PvP 28-26 (51.7%) Overall 92-89 (50.8%) This year: PvT 6-10 (37.5%) PvZ 8-5 (61.5%) PvP 12-7 (63.2%) Overall 26-22 (54.2%) Proleague stats: 15-8 Starleague stats: 0-1 Nemesis stats: 7-3 (70.0%) Monty Hall stats: 6-5 (54.5%) Facts: Anytime has qualified for 2 Starleague finals and is the established proleague ace for his team. Despite this, his lifetime stats indicate a fairly average player (even guys like Yellow and Reach who haven't won anything in ages have lifetime average of like 54-55%). His seasonal statistics have been high against Zerg and Protoss, but... Proleague PvZ stats: 5-0 (100%) on Nemesis: 2-0 (100%) on Monty Hall: 2-0 (100%) Proleague PvP stats: 9-4 (69.2%) on Nemesis: 5-2 (71.4%) on Monty Hall: 4-2 (66.7%) Facts: 21 of his 48 games (43.8%) played this season were on Nemesis or Monty Hall. All but 1 of his games played this season have been on Nemesis or Monty Hall. The reality is that Monty Hall is a map imbalanced in favor of Protoss and Nemesis happens to be "Anytime's map." Simply be being strong on two maps in the pool he has been a force to be reckoned with on the professional stage, but he's not exhibiting the diversity to dominate on the maps being used in the majors despite his ability to put together winning builds. Anytime stats don't add up to give a cohesive picture of a champion. The reality is that it's difficult to see him as a champion at all unless he puts together those winning builds he's famous for. Otherwise, he is a good but not great Protoss. In straight-up game playing, he is not the image of a champion Protoss as Reach, Ra, Kingdom, Bisu or Stork are, or Grrrr, Garimto, or IntoTheRain were before they retired (Garimto's play in PSL was just laughable). | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On August 22 2007 07:20 Ace wrote: In fact I was so glad when last year OSL Iris 3-0'd Casy i the 3rd place match in like 15 minutes. Aww, c'mon, casey's TvZ was pure awesome. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
His playing style is fun, and somewhat unique in these mainstream days, plus he can get on these cool winning streaks and has won some really intense high pressure matches. Everyone loves those, right? So his matches are even more memorable because of this. So basically he's a good, but most importantly, charismatic player. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On August 22 2007 07:11 Mortality wrote: Anytime record (lifetime): PvT 35-35 (50.0%) PvZ 29-28 (50.9%) PvP 28-26 (51.7%) Overall 92-89 (50.8%) This year: PvT 6-10 (37.5%) PvZ 8-5 (61.5%) PvP 12-7 (63.2%) Overall 26-22 (54.2%) Proleague stats: 15-8 Starleague stats: 0-1 Nemesis stats: 7-3 (70.0%) Monty Hall stats: 6-5 (54.5%) Facts: Anytime has qualified for 2 Starleague finals and is the established proleague ace for his team. Despite this, his lifetime stats indicate a fairly average player (even guys like Yellow and Reach who haven't won anything in ages have lifetime average of like 54-55%). His seasonal statistics have been high against Zerg and Protoss, but... Fact: Out of the last 25 games, Anytime has won 18 of them. How many protoss players can boast that kind of a winning percentage? If you're gonna judge how good Anytime currently is, you need to gauge his recent record. That's a 64% winning record in his last 25 games. How many protoss players can claim that kind of a winning rate? You need to put a lot less emphasis on "lifetime records" and a lot more emphasis on "recent records" Proleague PvZ stats: 5-0 (100%) on Nemesis: 2-0 (100%) on Monty Hall: 2-0 (100%) Proleague PvP stats: 9-4 (69.2%) on Nemesis: 5-2 (71.4%) on Monty Hall: 4-2 (66.7%) Facts: 21 of his 48 games (43.8%) played this season were on Nemesis or Monty Hall. All but 1 of his games played this season have been on Nemesis or Monty Hall. The reality is that Monty Hall is a map imbalanced in favor of Protoss and Nemesis happens to be "Anytime's map." Simply be being strong on two maps in the pool he has been a force to be reckoned with on the professional stage, but he's not exhibiting the diversity to dominate on the maps being used in the majors despite his ability to put together winning builds. What? Monty Hall is a completely balanced map for PvT. And PvZ wise Anytime has played a grand total of 2 games on Monty Hall. Are you trying to discredit ALL of Anytime's games on Monty Hall just because he played TWO PvZ games on this map? And the statement about Nemesis is just ridiculous. Zerg > Protoss almost 70% on Nemesis PvT on it is 7-12 The stats for Nemesis are already horrible for Protoss, and if it wasn't for Anytime, it would be a complete graveyard. Did I hear you right that you're trying to discredit all of Anyime's wins on Nemesis, knowing that it's the most anti-protoss map in the current lineup, just because it "happens to be a map Anytime plays on?" Seriously, did I hear you right on that? Anytime stats don't add up to give a cohesive picture of a champion. The reality is that it's difficult to see him as a champion at all unless he puts together those winning builds he's famous for. Otherwise, he is a good but not great Protoss. In straight-up game playing, he is not the image of a champion Protoss as Reach, Ra, Kingdom, Bisu or Stork are, or Grrrr, Garimto, or IntoTheRain were before they retired (Garimto's play in PSL was just laughable). Okay, so out of Anytime's recent games, which ones were the ones he won because of "those winning builds" that you keep mentioning? | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
I got halfway through the post and was just ".....this has to be tfeign posting" | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9021 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sync made it through - thats cool so did Jaehoon! | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
LOL! tfeign again... I remember when you tried to argue that Chojja\'s ZvT was better than Savior\'s. You even got to the point where you were pulling games out of Chojja\'s record saying \"he shouldn\'t have lost this\" or \"this game was unimportant.\" Then who became known as the most dominant player in the world? Savior, duh. I also remember calling the series between Chojja and Casy exactly as it happened. How? By looking at the statistics from an objective point of view and then using a study of game style (done as objectively as possible, but this is always subjective and therefore subject to bias) to analyze how it would go down. Chojja\'s only hope was to win the game on Peaks, and failing to win that meant basically automatically losing the series. Now, let us look at your \"objective\" report. You chose to look at the past 25 games. 25 seems like a nice, even, \"unbiased\" number, but is it really? The answer is no. You chose that because it roughly corresponds to the start of the proleague season. To be specific, the only proleague matches not amongst his past 25 games are a win over Hery (26 games ago) and a loss to Iris (30 games ago). Problem: focusing on only these 25 games specifically means that you are focusing almost exclusively on his proleague stats. Why are there almost no individual league games contained in this streak? Because Anytime was not qualifying for individual leagues. In the proleague, the team places you on the map where you will do best. This means placing a player on not only a map they are good on, but on a map where the most likely match-up is one they are good with for the map (it\'s important to note that we\'re talking about how well the player plays that MU on THAT SPECIFIC MAP, not on any other maps). For instance, Boxer\'s lifetime record on R-Point is 11-3. In TvP on R-Point, Boxer went 5-2 playing against a pretty damn strong toss line-up (Much, Rock, Reach, Pusan, Foru, Anytime). Boxer\'s lifetime TvP was only 47.3% wins. Obviously, Boxer\'s TvP on R-Point is much better than his TvP on other maps. Why is this important? Because 21 of Anytime\'s 23 proleague matches played were on either Nemesis or Monty Hall. You insist that Monty Hall is balanced? PvT 33-28 (54.1%) - that\'s not too bad, but... PvZ 11-5 (68.7%) - whoa, not good! And also... TvZ 17-11 (60.7%) - not good! Am I going to discredit his wins here because the map favors Protoss? Definitely not. I said he went 6-5 on this map and that means that he went 6-5 on this map. That statement is final, non-retractible. Going 6-5 on a map good for your race isn\'t particularly amazing, but it\'s still good. Especially since 3 of those losses were against players top 5 in the world (Iris, Hwasin, Stork). I won\'t discredit those losses because those were good players (if I was going to do that, I\'d discredit his wins against newbies), but what this all amounts to is that he\'s solid on that map and plays a lot of games on it, thus his ability ON THIS MAP is dominating a large part of his \"recent record.\" This is BUT ONE OF MANY MAPS OUT THERE! (GASP) A champion is someone who is solid on most of the maps he plays, facing people when he doesn\'t get to CHOOSE which map he plays on and still coming out strong. Fact: In starleague matches you aren\'t choosing your map for all the games you play. Anytime\'s performance on Nemesis is an anomaly. It\'s sort of like how Boxer\'s TvP sucks (by top tier Terran standards) on most maps and yet he pwns the shit out of solid toss players on R-Point. Anytime has figured Nemesis out. He\'s strong on it where others are weak. This is one of those ways where he flashes the brilliance of a championship mind (just like he did with the 3 gate dts vs Yellow), but in the same year he has gone 13-14 on all maps other than Nemesis and Monty. Hell, he is 19-19 for the year on all maps other than Nemesis. Those are not the stats you\'d expect from a champion. Right now, he\'s championing two maps, one in particular, not the full spectrum you need to be championship material. And the individual results agree with me. In 2007 his stats against KeSPA top 30 gamers are... 1-4 against Stork (Stork is hot, I\'d expect this) 1-2 against July 1-2 against Gorush 0-2 against Hwasin (Hwasin is hot, I\'d expect this) 0-1 against Iris (Iris is hot, I\'d expect this) 1-2 against DarkElf 1-1 against Bisu (good) 2-0 against Free (good) 2-0 against FireBatHero (FBH is kinda weak TvP so I\'d expect this) 0-2 against UpMagic 0-1 against Sea[Shield] Overall vs top 30 gamers... 3-5 PvP 3-8 PvT 2-4 PvZ 8-17 Total (OUCH!) Anytime is hot right now? -His last 25 games are almost exclusively proleague because he didn\'t qualify for the majors -His proleague games are almost exclusively on 2 maps, so it doesn\'t give a good overall view of his ability -His proleague games, while definitely not all easy, are mostly not against top 30 ranked players, so I\'d expect him to do pretty well in them, especially since proleague is the only league he has to practice for on a week-to-week basis -His games THIS YEAR against actual top ranked players are mostly losses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ How do we know if we can take statistics at face value? Are they truly an adequate representation of a player\'s ability? Does it include a broad spectrum of maps as well as match conditions? Is it a broad spectrum of maps? A broad spectrum of opponent races? A broad spectrum of opponent skill sets? The best place for getting these answers is in the individual leagues, not proleague. In the individuals, you don\'t get to pick your maps (except for some past MSL finals in determining what map would be played twice) and you have very limited control over your opponent\'s race (aside from group selection stage, no control). Since maps in the proleague aren\'t always so well balanced (Geometry, ROFL!), you have a pretty good idea of what race your opponent will be. The only condition that isn\'t directly influenced by the fact that it\'s a proleague match is the opponent\'s playing style, but even then, certain styles are geared more towards certain maps, so you can more likely expect those players on those maps. Anytime\'s performances in the individual leagues lately have been pathetic. This year, he is 10-13 in individual league games, not passing through the qualifiers for either OSL or MSL. Is he a bad gamer? Definitely not, however, his lifetime stats paint an adequate picture of his overall ability: he\'s pretty good, but definitely a solid notch (or two) below guys like Kingdom, Nal_Ra, or Reach. | ||
GTR
51453 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
In the proleague, the team places you on the map where you will do best. AND SO DOES THE OTHER TEAM! Why is your argument so one-sided? Of course, a team is going to send out their best player on a map he's confident in, but that doesn't happen with one team. That happens with BOTH. The fact that in the individual leagues, players do not get to choose their maps increases the luck factor, and decreases the skill factor. A player might get unlucky and be forced to play on an imbalanced map that doesn't tell a whole lot. The winner of a game may not always be the better player. The fact that in Proleague matches, players do get to choose their maps decreases the luck factor, and increases the skill factor because both players are playing on a map they're both confident with. The winner of a game is much more likely a better player. | ||
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