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On April 20 2020 09:49 Kaolla wrote:
hat the game is like. Used to be ages like this, but it seems these days if its not a 2 base opening its a bad map and imbalance blabla... Really shitty. I welcome maps like these. Break the macro meta which is somewhat boring (imo).
its imbalanced because thanks to that opening and the overall layout of that nat theres so many ways terran can take advantage with 111 its not even funny. its recognizing this map is inherently abusive in a certain way and forces certain race to only play in a certain way that arbitrarily restrictive thanks to the map and consequently unfun (for the zerg at least).
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On April 20 2020 11:05 ggsimida wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 09:49 Kaolla wrote:
hat the game is like. Used to be ages like this, but it seems these days if its not a 2 base opening its a bad map and imbalance blabla... Really shitty. I welcome maps like these. Break the macro meta which is somewhat boring (imo). its imbalanced because thanks to that opening and the overall layout of that nat theres so many ways terran can take advantage with 111 its not even funny. its recognizing this map is inherently abusive in a certain way and forces certain race to only play in a certain way that arbitrarily restrictive thanks to the map and consequently unfun (for the zerg at least).
But a map which allows the Zerg to easily take a 2nd (or even 3rd) base also 'forces' Terran or Protoss to play a certain way. Perhaps maps can never be perfectly balanced for all matchups, which is why the map pool should have different type of maps to balance a BO3-BO5 series.
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On April 20 2020 11:08 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 11:05 ggsimida wrote:On April 20 2020 09:49 Kaolla wrote:
hat the game is like. Used to be ages like this, but it seems these days if its not a 2 base opening its a bad map and imbalance blabla... Really shitty. I welcome maps like these. Break the macro meta which is somewhat boring (imo). its imbalanced because thanks to that opening and the overall layout of that nat theres so many ways terran can take advantage with 111 its not even funny. its recognizing this map is inherently abusive in a certain way and forces certain race to only play in a certain way that arbitrarily restrictive thanks to the map and consequently unfun (for the zerg at least). But a map which allows the Zerg to easily take a 2nd (or even 3rd) base also 'forces' Terran or Protoss to play a certain way. Perhaps maps can never be perfectly balanced for all matchups, which is why the map pool should have different type of maps to balance a BO3-BO5 series.
now you know why everyone only wants to play on FS/CS in korea? do you think its fun the map forces you to play to play in a certain way, and/or its cool and fun your main reason of loss is thanks to certain abusive features of the map rather than just being outclassed BO/macro wise?
and only the viewers gripe about fs/cb being boring?
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Hydras kinda suck at killing vultures without their speed and range upgrade. Given the amount of drones he lost it prob would’ve been worth investing in a sunk tbh. Soma was too ancy to get his mutas out and it cost him.
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Hitchiker brings new meta, more low econ games and more 1 base game. This is awesome that we have the chance to see pro games on Hitchiker on stage, and i hope there is more map like this in further ASL.
but...
Transistor is still the best ASL map for me so far.
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When Flash plays mind games and barely loses a Bo5: Oh, he's washed up, he needs to step up his normal game again.
When Flash plays regularly and utterly crushes opponent: Oh, 3-0, so boring, those maps are stupid.
As for me, it was a great pleasure to watch Flash win the last map, on the Terran graveyard. He looked like he was indeed D-E-D when somehow managed to kill everything Soma had.
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Is Hitchhiker favoured for Terran in TvZ? G2 where Soma nearly made a comeback from early losses showed one great advantage Zerg has in delaying timing pushes: the valley of death. Sure, the distance between bases are short, but the cliffs on both sides of the main central path allows mutas to keep sniping marines. Imagine being Terran lacking vision of the cliffs - it's absolutely heart-stopping trying to anticipate and micro against muta attacks (makes a good action Alien-like movie scene too!).
Also, the reason why pro gamers veto 'weird' maps every season could be the complexity and extra hassle of learning specific BOs and timings. Doesn't necessarily mean the map itself is imbalance. In fact, Flash lost on Hitchhiker against Zero, and won the Protoss-favoured map against Snow in the ASL where he bowed out early. The difficulty is not so much winning on a funky map, but preparing the series as a whole.
So having a diverse map pool tests players' ability to prepare and execute multiple strats in a series - which is a good thing.
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On April 20 2020 17:23 RKC wrote:
Is Hitchhiker favoured for Terran in TvZ? G2 where Soma nearly made a comeback from early losses showed one great advantage Zerg has in delaying timing pushes: the valley of death. Sure, the distance between bases are short, but the cliffs on both sides of the main central path allows mutas to keep sniping marines. Imagine being Terran lacking vision of the cliffs - it's absolutely heart-stopping trying to anticipate and micro against muta attacks (makes a good action Alien-like movie scene too!).
Also, the reason why pro gamers veto 'weird' maps every season could be the complexity and extra hassle of learning specific BOs and timings. Doesn't necessarily mean the map itself is imbalance. In fact, Flash lost on Hitchhiker against Zero, and won the Protoss-favoured map against Snow in the ASL where he bowed out early. The difficulty is not so much winning on a funky map, but preparing the series as a whole.
So having a diverse map pool tests players' ability to prepare and execute multiple strats in a series - which is a good thing.
agreed
it is a Real Time STRATEGY game after all, right?
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On April 20 2020 11:04 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 09:49 Kaolla wrote:On April 20 2020 09:21 darktreb wrote:
"Every game on Hitchhiker is like this"
^ said by people who have seen two games total on Hitchhiker that went like this. exactly, Hitchhiker is fine, but these "low eco" maps are getting voted out because the produce bad games due to players playing macro games and fucking up. Not every game should open with a free expansion for both players. Zergs (or any players) have a great chance if terran plays 1 base , yea it requires more attention early game but thats what the game is like. Used to be ages like this, but it seems these days if its not a 2 base opening its a bad map and imbalance blabla... Really shitty. I welcome maps like these. Break the macro meta which is somewhat boring (imo). Exactly. I don't see why it should be the norm for players to get a 'free' 2nd base. Bases, even main bases, should have second exits and/or be surrounded by cliffs. This allows for early game scouting for Terran and Protoss, too. I feel that Zergs have a somewhat unfair advantage in early-game scouting (hence, they can execute busts and fake bust more easily). It's not realistic that bases are arbitrarily 'walled off' by some invisible screen. A strategy-based game should be based on real warfare as much as possible. Of course, this may unbalance certain matchups. But if Terran can siege up cliffs with tanks, Zergs can muta harass or siege up with guardians. Zerg have viable strats even on 'low econ' (fast defilers). We should have more dynamic maps to freshen up the meta. And protss can build cannons on the cliffs surrounding your base? :D The game is sci-fi, invisible wall offs suits well with force fields and aliens 
Anyways these are the matters of opinion. Anyone can open a game with a map they desire and play one base if they want. But for the sake of balance and fairness to the competetive scene the tournament maps is better to keep fairly standard.
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Reading this thread it feels like I'm alone in having thoroughly enjoyed this match. Feelsbadman.
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On April 20 2020 11:04 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 09:49 Kaolla wrote:On April 20 2020 09:21 darktreb wrote:
"Every game on Hitchhiker is like this"
^ said by people who have seen two games total on Hitchhiker that went like this. exactly, Hitchhiker is fine, but these "low eco" maps are getting voted out because the produce bad games due to players playing macro games and fucking up. Not every game should open with a free expansion for both players. Zergs (or any players) have a great chance if terran plays 1 base , yea it requires more attention early game but thats what the game is like. Used to be ages like this, but it seems these days if its not a 2 base opening its a bad map and imbalance blabla... Really shitty. I welcome maps like these. Break the macro meta which is somewhat boring (imo). Exactly. I don't see why it should be the norm for players to get a 'free' 2nd base. Bases, even main bases, should have second exits and/or be surrounded by cliffs. This allows for early game scouting for Terran and Protoss, too. I feel that Zergs have a somewhat unfair advantage in early-game scouting (hence, they can execute busts and fake bust more easily). It's not realistic that bases are arbitrarily 'walled off' by some invisible screen. A strategy-based game should be based on real warfare as much as possible. Of course, this may unbalance certain matchups. But if Terran can siege up cliffs with tanks, Zergs can muta harass or siege up with guardians. Zerg have viable strats even on 'low econ' (fast defilers). We should have more dynamic maps to freshen up the meta.
Have been saying this for years. Every time the player that opens FE gets rushed people get mad, while the truth is that opening FE is a risk (although this risk is negligibly small on certain maps/matches), so maps like that do exploit this.
1 base/ low eco play is possible however hard it might be. I thoroughly enjoyed Hitchhiker there should be more maps like that. Balance will be of question when a lot of games are played and OP strategies are formed.
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On April 20 2020 19:12 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 11:04 RKC wrote:On April 20 2020 09:49 Kaolla wrote:On April 20 2020 09:21 darktreb wrote:
"Every game on Hitchhiker is like this"
^ said by people who have seen two games total on Hitchhiker that went like this. exactly, Hitchhiker is fine, but these "low eco" maps are getting voted out because the produce bad games due to players playing macro games and fucking up. Not every game should open with a free expansion for both players. Zergs (or any players) have a great chance if terran plays 1 base , yea it requires more attention early game but thats what the game is like. Used to be ages like this, but it seems these days if its not a 2 base opening its a bad map and imbalance blabla... Really shitty. I welcome maps like these. Break the macro meta which is somewhat boring (imo). Exactly. I don't see why it should be the norm for players to get a 'free' 2nd base. Bases, even main bases, should have second exits and/or be surrounded by cliffs. This allows for early game scouting for Terran and Protoss, too. I feel that Zergs have a somewhat unfair advantage in early-game scouting (hence, they can execute busts and fake bust more easily). It's not realistic that bases are arbitrarily 'walled off' by some invisible screen. A strategy-based game should be based on real warfare as much as possible. Of course, this may unbalance certain matchups. But if Terran can siege up cliffs with tanks, Zergs can muta harass or siege up with guardians. Zerg have viable strats even on 'low econ' (fast defilers). We should have more dynamic maps to freshen up the meta. Have been saying this for years. Every time the player that opens FE gets rushed people get mad, while the truth is that opening FE is a risk (although this risk is negligibly small on certain maps/matches), so maps like that do exploit this. 1 base/ low eco play is possible however hard it might be. I thoroughly enjoyed Hitchhiker there should be more maps like that. Balance will be of question when a lot of games are played and OP strategies are formed.
totally agreed
but its kinda understandable that most players want bland, standard maps because learning new approaches is a hassle
this comes from pure human laziness I think. Kinda shame, but nothing can be done, really 
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I can't believe so many are complaining about the maps when Soma played so poorly in the first 2 games.
Losing all his lings for almost nothing in the first engage and then running all his lurkers into a widely spread terran army just makes no sense to me. He was doing well with muta harass and putting Flash into a position where he had to play it safe and waste quite a lot on turrets etc. while he double expanded.
Terrible engages made Flash just steamroll him.
In the 2nd game I don't understand how he let so many vultures through, 1 sunken to cover the mineral line and 3 hydras blocking the choke or something is a bit wasteful but running his hydras around like headless chicken for 10 minutes was just awful to watch.
Truly disappointing series, Soma probably got flustered and choked because he was nowhere near the level he has played at throughout this season.
People saying that Flash would've done to Queen what he did here to Soma if he played standard just baffles me, Queen played so damn well in his games.
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On April 20 2020 22:47 Barneyk wrote:
I can't believe so many are complaining about the maps when Soma played so poorly in the first 2 games.
Losing all his lings for almost nothing in the first engage and then running all his lurkers into a widely spread terran army just makes no sense to me. He was doing well with muta harass and putting Flash into a position where he had to play it safe and waste quite a lot on turrets etc. while he double expanded.
Terrible engages made Flash just steamroll him.
In the 2nd game I don't understand how he let so many vultures through, 1 sunken to cover the mineral line and 3 hydras blocking the choke or something is a bit wasteful but running his hydras around like headless chicken for 10 minutes was just awful to watch.
Truly disappointing series, Soma probably got flustered and choked because he was nowhere near the level he has played at throughout this season.
People saying that Flash would've done to Queen what he did here to Soma if he played standard just baffles me, Queen played so damn well in his games.
Yes, a single sunken in the main base could've stopped the vulture harass (or at least, force Flash to mass more vultures and waste resources). A nice placement could be top left to block.the vultures from passing behind the minerals?
To be fair, Soma probably didn't expect Flash to keep spamming vultures - but instead to transition to starport or tank-marine push, perhaps? The way Flash (deliberately or thoughtlessly) sent vultures one-by-one would indicate such a transition (someone planning to invest in X number of vultures would more likely send X vultures in mass all at once). Maybe some meta trickery going on?
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On April 21 2020 00:14 RKC wrote:
To be fair, Soma probably didn't expect Flash to keep spamming vultures - but instead to transition to starport or tank-marine push, perhaps? The way Flash (deliberately or thoughtlessly) sent vultures one-by-one would indicate such a transition (someone planning to invest in X number of vultures would more likely send X vultures in mass all at once). Maybe some meta trickery going on?
But we already saw another game where Terran sent Vultures one by one that same path and did major damage, Soma saw that game as well and shouldn't have been surprised by it. Anyone remember which game it was?
I am sure there are a lot of things going on that I miss but it really felt like Soma fell apart here. I hope he can come back next season and do great things!
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A single sunken colony costs 175 minerals and cannot protect entire mineral line from vulture harass.
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On April 21 2020 19:05 Ej_ wrote:
A single sunken colony costs 175 minerals and cannot protect entire mineral line from vulture harass.
Losing 10 drones costs 500 minerals + lost mining.
In that position it basically can.
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EPT
