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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19366 Posts
On July 15 2019 14:22 Ethelis wrote: He's giving 110% recently cause he's gonna play Classic WoW again  3 reasons why Stork is playing well: * Wants to show good games before Classic WoW is released * Reignited his love affair with Coach January * Secret Hyperbolic Training with Jangbi | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51072 Posts
or is it a nuts and bolts only deal, I forget. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 15 2019 04:00 Xain0n wrote: In the last seven/eight months Sharp had very good results against the best Protoss in both ASL and KSL, his all time record in ASL isn't really that relevant. 10-13 and eliminated by a non-elite Protoss speaks for itself . He's just okay or above-average vP. Show the stats if they're so overwhelming. On July 15 2019 04:24 TaardadAiel wrote:] Decrepit? How? That's the same Stork who destroyed the current ASL champion 3:0 fairly recently. Mini, for his part, doesn't have the best PvT. He got demolished 3:0 by Sharp in the CMSL, IIRC. It's a high-variance game. Best win rates are ~60%, arena anything consistently >50% is solid. Overindexing on small sample sizes isn't my thing Stork has played well recently but he's not dominant either. He's kind of barely holding on. Hyuk could've easily taken him out. He can't overwhelm anyone, can't purely out-skill someone, which lowers his floor and caps his ceiling. I'd love to continue to be proven wrong, though; Stork is one of my favorite players ever. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MAN. | ||
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 15 2019 23:18 KamMoye wrote: 10-13 and eliminated by a non-elite Protoss speaks for itself . He's just okay or above-average vP. Show the stats if they're so overwhelming. It's a high-variance game. Best win rates are ~60%, arena anything consistently >50% is solid. Overindexing on small sample sizes isn't my thing Stork has played well recently but he's not dominant either. He's kind of barely holding on. Hyuk could've easily taken him out. He can't overwhelm anyone, can't purely out-skill someone, which lowers his floor and caps his ceiling. I'd love to continue to be proven wrong, though; Stork is one of my favorite players ever. Not counting team leagues and foreign tournaments, Sharp went 17-6(8-0) in TvP in the span of seven months(from ASL 6 to Castermuse Starleague). | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 16 2019 00:19 Dazed. wrote: fucking bizarre that you make the argument sharps tvp is mediocre and cite his stats as proof, and then immediately follow that up with, well, broodwar is high variance we shouldnt pay too much attention to small stats. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MAN. I think you need to work on reading comprehension. For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP. How old are you guys? Yeesh. Yes, nuance and complexity exists. It's not rocket science. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 16 2019 00:58 Xain0n wrote: [ Not counting team leagues and foreign tournaments, Sharp went 17-6(8-0) in TvP in the span of seven months(from ASL 6 to Castermuse Starleague). Seven months? Seems like an arbitrary cut-off date to me. Are you going to be transparent or just manipulative? I just discussed how much variance there is. And you're still refusing to concede any points, which makes you sound like you have an agenda. Who did he play? No one cares if he's beating up on dudes like Movie. What's his record v Stork, Mini, Rain, Horang2, Best, Snow? The burden of proof is on you; you're the one tryin to establish Sharp as elite vP, while I'm saying he's simply slightly above average. So if his win% vs top Ps is a standard deviation > his Terran peers, you have a strong argument. Don't care about team or foreign tournaments. Only the best of the best matters. So: sponmatches vs top players < KCM < ASL = KSL | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 16 2019 01:23 KamMoye wrote: Seven months? Seems like an arbitrary cut-off date to me. Are you going to be transparent or just manipulative? I just discussed how much variance there is. And you're still refusing to concede any points, which makes you sound like you have an agenda. Who did he play? Don't care about team or foreign tournaments. Only the best of the best matters. So: sponmatches vs top players < KCM < ASL = KSL It's simply ASL, KSL and Castermuse, just reading Sharp's Liquipedia page(the last tournaments he played in chronological order; the timespan happens to be seven months, it's not something I chose); Rain broke Sharp's TvP streak during KSL 3 and Stork just beat him yesterday, but before this, starting from ASL 6 Sharp defeated Guemchi, Rain, Jaehoon, Movie, Rain, Best and Mini(twice). | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
In the wildcard match for the ASL7, Sharp won against Rain 3:2. Then beat Best in a thriller game on Sylphid in the Ro16. Then won the semi-final match in the KSL2 against Rain 4:3. So that's 4 tournament wins against the two top protosses he's faced (he has a 3:2 versus Movie and 3:1 vs Jaehoon in the KSL2 too) in that timespan. No other tournament matches. We can agree at this point in time he had a good tournament record versus Protoss, yes? 8-5 vs Rain in three matches total, plus another 7-3 versus the other three players makes for a total of 15-8, which is about 65% winrate between ASL6 and the end of KSL2. He won all of his six matches against Protoss in that timeframe. He's been getting figured out lately, in my opinion, and so got beaten 3:1 by Rain in KSL3 and then 2:0 by Horangee in the ASL8 wildcard. This makes it 16-13, not that impressive, I admit, and a 9-8 record against Rain, who is the most consistently performing Protoss player around. And, to be honest, trends and latest results show form better, that's why we're considering results from the last year or so and not his 3:0 loss at the hands of Shuttle in ASL1, which was close to three years ago; you beat a good guy who's been performing well lately - you're doing something right. ASL samples are rather small even if we consider all the seasons, plus form tends to vary widely in time, as you said, and mappools tend to change stuff. My point for Stork is that he's not decrepit - I'll say that again, in the KSL he destroyed defending ASL champion Last 3:0, he destroyed JD (who I'll admit is not in good shape at all, but then again, we thought Stork wasn't either) 3:0, he schooled Best 3:0. I do not think Stork is decrepit, he is in fine shape lately and I hope this will continue. If you have any evidence Stork's latest form is not good, I'd like to see it. I'm not saying he's dominant but there's a large gap between decrepit and dominant, I hope you'll agree. | ||
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway386 Posts
scrolling a bit further down: "For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP." I mean, do you hear yourself when you are typing this kind of stuff? Also, should cool it with all the negative attitudes. As far as the ASL group thread goes, all I have seen is you disrespecting almost every progamer you want to "discuss." Maybe I'm just interpreting your posting the wrong way, but it seems very arrogant and hostile. Edit: Never one to derail sorry, the matches for this group were really great! Glad Sharp & Stork made it out. Calm vs Stork was epic, Stork REALLY picking up his stride now. Dino Toss <3 | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 16 2019 01:19 KamMoye wrote: You ask us how old we are when you literally shift what you are saying WITHIN one post and then again immediately after. You did say he was mediocre. You did justify it with stats. You then dismissed small sample sizes as meaningless. I think you need to work on reading comprehension. For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP. How old are you guys? Yeesh. Yes, nuance and complexity exists. It's not rocket science.  | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 16 2019 03:39 TaardadAiel wrote: In ASL6 - it started about 11 months ago - Sharp won against then defending champion Rain. In the wildcard match for the ASL7, Sharp won against Rain 3:2. Then beat Best in a thriller game on Sylphid in the Ro16. Then won the semi-final match in the KSL2 against Rain 4:3. So that's 4 tournament wins against the two top protosses he's faced (he has a 3:2 versus Movie and 3:1 vs Jaehoon in the KSL2 too) in that timespan. No other tournament matches. We can agree at this point in time he had a good tournament record versus Protoss, yes? 8-5 vs Rain in three matches total, plus another 7-3 versus the other three players makes for a total of 15-8, which is about 65% winrate between ASL6 and the end of KSL2. He won all of his six matches against Protoss in that timeframe. He's been getting figured out lately, in my opinion, and so got beaten 3:1 by Rain in KSL3 and then 2:0 by Horangee in the ASL8 wildcard. This makes it 16-13, not that impressive, I admit, and a 9-8 record against Rain, who is the most consistently performing Protoss player around. And, to be honest, trends and latest results show form better, that's why we're considering results from the last year or so and not his 3:0 loss at the hands of Shuttle in ASL1, which was close to three years ago; you beat a good guy who's been performing well lately - you're doing something right. ASL samples are rather small even if we consider all the seasons, plus form tends to vary widely in time, as you said, and mappools tend to change stuff. My point for Stork is that he's not decrepit - I'll say that again, in the KSL he destroyed defending ASL champion Last 3:0, he destroyed JD (who I'll admit is not in good shape at all, but then again, we thought Stork wasn't either) 3:0, he schooled Best 3:0. I do not think Stork is decrepit, he is in fine shape lately and I hope this will continue. If you have any evidence Stork's latest form is not good, I'd like to see it. I'm not saying he's dominant but there's a large gap between decrepit and dominant, I hope you'll agree. This is a fair, balanced and informative post. Thank you. 16-13 against elite competition is good. I think the truth was in the middle of our beginning viewpoints: Sharp's vP, upon closer scrutiny, probably isn't as strong as his reputation, but it's not as overrated as I suspected. No, Stork is definitely in better shape now. But he was decrepit for a while. It's going to take more than a few months for me to be convinced it's here to stay. We see hot streaks all the time. Just look at Larva's recent career. There was a recent period he wasn't even qualifying for individual leagues. Then a period where he might be the best Z vT. I value consistency. On July 16 2019 05:51 TiQ.SinGi wrote: "He's just okay or above-average vP" scrolling a bit further down: "For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP." I mean, do you hear yourself when you are typing this kind of stuff? Also, should cool it with all the negative attitudes. As far as the ASL group thread goes, all I have seen is you disrespecting almost every progamer you want to "discuss." Maybe I'm just interpreting your posting the wrong way, but it seems very arrogant and hostile. Edit: Never one to derail sorry, the matches for this group were really great! Glad Sharp & Stork made it out. Calm vs Stork was epic, Stork REALLY picking up his stride now. Dino Toss <3 No, you just need to read more closely. If you don't like me, report my posts to mods if you think they break a rule, or maybe there's an ignore button. On July 17 2019 00:16 Dazed. wrote: You ask us how old we are when you literally shift what you are saying WITHIN one post and then again immediately after. You did say he was mediocre. You did justify it with stats. You then dismissed small sample sizes as meaningless. Wait, so how old are you, specifically? Seriously. Your reading comprehension is the worst. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
You don't seem to be entering this discussion with a great deal of sincerity. You have decided that Stork is and Sharp were mediocre and then find a reason to justify it. Even after TaardadAriel's post the most you would concede is that we all still overate him but maybe he wasn't the stock average player you had decided he was, because heaven forbid you just admit you had been making claims based on little to no substance. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
That's cool, dude. I don't care. If you don't like me, ignore me, report me or don't read my posts. If you don't agree with me, that's okay, too--I don't care about your validation. If you want to advance the discussion, sure, let's engage. Otherwise, I hear you. Let's agree to disagree. Otherwise address the substance of my arguments or don't respond. | ||
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