[ASL8] Ro24 Group E
Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1142 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5051 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5051 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5231 Posts
Edit; Hahahahaha. | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 19:29 maybenexttime wrote: Haha, hold lurkers in Sharp's 3rd. If those kill like 40 SCVs, maybe Hyuk can make a comeback. //aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Sharp built a turret. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Nesto
Switzerland1318 Posts
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MrShankly
United Kingdom370 Posts
Calm hasn't aged at all xD. All the other programmers look so relatively old! Stork Fighting!!!!!! | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 19:36 Nesto wrote: Hmm, is this a different Hyuk? He doesn't look like the good old SKT Hyuk, who's famous for Hyuking himself He is a bit rusty but I think he tried. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
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Nesto
Switzerland1318 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5231 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
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HolydaKing
21225 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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KarlHungus1908
67 Posts
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HolydaKing
21225 Posts
On July 14 2019 19:54 sixfour wrote: That's got to be close to the record for most overlords killed I doubt that, but for games of similar length, probably. | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 19:53 HolydaKing wrote: Been a while since I watched a BW game. What an annihilation. Welcome back! | ||
HolydaKing
21225 Posts
Just love to check out Stork games, always liked him. | ||
Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 14 2019 19:56 Miragee wrote: Well, the way Stork has been playing in recent months I would surely give him the edge over Sharp. If it goes to a macro game it should be a safe win. The only way I see for Sharp in a macro game is if he does a ton of damage with vultures. Welcome back! Are we speaking of the same Sharp who advanced to KSL 2 finals after beating Rain? | ||
HolydaKing
21225 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
Sorry I doubted you stork! | ||
Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 20:01 Xain0n wrote: Are we speaking of the same Sharp who advanced to KSL 2 finals after beating Rain? Eh, I said recent months. Recent months is not 2018 by this point and Stork had a brilliant run this year in KSL and his game against Calm (and now Sharp) shows the same kind of play he showed then. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 14 2019 20:28 Miragee wrote: Eh, I said recent months. Recent months is not 2018 by this point and Stork had a brilliant run this year in KSL and his game against Calm (and now Sharp) shows the same kind of play he showed then. Stork is playing well and can surely beat Sharp but saying he is the favourite here seems a little too much to me. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
422 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 20:33 Xain0n wrote: Stork is playing well and can surely beat Sharp but saying he is the favourite here seems a little too much to me. I just don't feel like Sharp is very strong in TvP. He is solid by now but Stork is just incredible in PvT when he is on point and he's in a great shape recently. Not comparable to his old self but yeah, in the current era, right at this moment, I would put him ahead of Sharp in a head-to-head contest. Note that I didn't say Stork is the better player overall atm. Just head-to-head. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 20:49 Jackal03 wrote: I feel that too, he was too relaxed in his defences. One extra spore/sunken would've made a win Agreed, a bit of a shame but that's ZvZ. A "small" mistake can turn the game on its head. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 14 2019 20:49 Miragee wrote: I just don't feel like Sharp is very strong in TvP. He is solid by now but Stork is just incredible in PvT when he is on point and he's in a great shape recently. Not comparable to his old self but yeah, in the current era, right at this moment, I would put him ahead of Sharp in a head-to-head contest. Note that I didn't say Stork is the better player overall atm. Just head-to-head. Sharp's TvP was literally the best except for Flash's in the last eight months(considering tournament results), he appeared weaker in TvZ. Maybe that changed with KSL 3, I would still be reluctant to consider Stork the favourite in a series. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3802 Posts
he has no bio you don't need to stack your mutas | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On July 14 2019 21:10 ortseam wrote: Ensnare doesn't affect goliath fire rate. doesn't affect tanks fire rate also | ||
GTR
51134 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On July 14 2019 21:06 Xain0n wrote: Sharp's TvP was literally the best except for Flash's in the last eight months(considering tournament results), he appeared weaker in TvZ. Maybe that changed with KSL 3, I would still be reluctant to consider Stork the favourite in a series. Sharp's TvP is not good, the reasons he's considered the second best after Flash is because all other Terrans are terrible at TvP as well. I wouldn't put Sharp favoured against any of the top Protoss players today. | ||
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
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Miragee
8292 Posts
On July 14 2019 21:06 Xain0n wrote: Sharp's TvP was literally the best except for Flash's in the last eight months(considering tournament results), he appeared weaker in TvZ. Maybe that changed with KSL 3, I would still be reluctant to consider Stork the favourite in a series. Well, that's fine. It's not like I'm an expert or anything, it's just my personal feel after having observed both of them in recent months. Also being the second best at TvP in this era is not an indication of being good (not even sure if this is true now that Last is not terrible at TvP anymore). Flash is literally the only genuenly good terran in this match up atm. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 14 2019 21:13 Dante08 wrote: Sharp's TvP is not good, the reasons he's considered the second best after Flash is because all other Terrans are terrible at TvP as well. I wouldn't put Sharp favoured against any of the top Protoss players today. That's a fascinating theory, actual results in Starleagues seem to indicate otherwise; also, Sharp is expected to smash at least Mini. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On July 14 2019 21:14 Kaolla wrote: He played quite alright though, I've definitely seen way worse (Hyuk that is) I think he could have won, if he recognized the timing attack and skipped the queens | ||
outscar
2788 Posts
FlaSh > Happy for Sharp, that harass style is becoming my favorite. Also that last game lol, Hyuk hyukin himself, some things guess never change. If he was careful with mines maybe he could win, he throw away so many lings and hydras for mines. | ||
Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
It's easy in retrospect to say Hyuk should have just plopped a 2nd sunken because of the harass. Clearly these guys have it ingrained not to waste resources to such extent that continued harass happens sometimes. It is entertaining to have a master harasser like Sharp do such things. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32244 Posts
I don't understand the queen switch, it was sooo slow and he already head +2 cap for mutas for meatshields plus a bunch of hydras (+1/0 probably?), he needed to play textbook ZvMech and prepare a massive flank against Sharp's last attempt. Also his full muta attack on Sharp was wild gamble when we he was controlling the map and was spawning hydralisks. He basically fought with 2/3 his power against a full defensive terran setup. Also so painful to see such a late overlord speed =/ Sharp did gain a bunch of tiny edges over and over. I was particularly impressed as how he stayed focused and mined his entrance against the ling follow up after being attack by like 24 mutas. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 14 2019 21:19 Xain0n wrote: That's a fascinating theory, actual results in Starleagues seem to indicate otherwise; also, Sharp is expected to smash at least Mini. Sharp is 10-13 v P in ASL and got thoroughly beaten by a decrepit Stork. | ||
CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 15 2019 02:52 KamMoye wrote: Sharp is 10-13 v P in ASL and got thoroughly beaten by a decrepit Stork. In the last seven/eight months Sharp had very good results against the best Protoss in both ASL and KSL, his all time record in ASL isn't really that relevant. | ||
batsnacks
United States4466 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On July 15 2019 02:52 KamMoye wrote: Sharp is 10-13 v P in ASL and got thoroughly beaten by a decrepit Stork. Decrepit? How? That's the same Stork who destroyed the current ASL champion 3:0 fairly recently. Mini, for his part, doesn't have the best PvT. He got demolished 3:0 by Sharp in the CMSL, IIRC. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
The other weird thing about Sharp is that he’s so good at certain things but something about his intuition or game sense especially vs. Z seems really off. His vulture play in both TvZ and TvP is amazing, and is always active with them. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
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Ideas
United States7956 Posts
Why is stork so good now? it doesn't make any sense but it's really cool to see that last KSL wasn't a fluke. Gives me hope that maybe it's not actually time to give up hope on JD coming back to form at some point too. Hyuk totally blew a huge lead with that all-in attack on Sharp, I can't believe he committed to it. He played well vs calm though. Calm seemed prime to take stork down with a zergling or hydra all-in or something after beating the zealot rush... but then just walled off the map and was late getting a hydra den and forgot to spread his lings out to scout for shuttles and just played so bad. Seemed like he had a gameplan for something specific before the match started and decided to not change the plan when a good opportunity presented itself. His second game was better but as said by someone else forgetting to morph that spore in his main totally cost him the game. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2394 Posts
On July 15 2019 09:03 BisuDagger wrote: Stork played great in his group. He really looked revitalized. I wonder what has changed. He's giving 110% recently cause he's gonna play Classic WoW again | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On July 15 2019 14:22 Ethelis wrote: He's giving 110% recently cause he's gonna play Classic WoW again 3 reasons why Stork is playing well: * Wants to show good games before Classic WoW is released * Reignited his love affair with Coach January * Secret Hyperbolic Training with Jangbi | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
or is it a nuts and bolts only deal, I forget. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 15 2019 04:00 Xain0n wrote: In the last seven/eight months Sharp had very good results against the best Protoss in both ASL and KSL, his all time record in ASL isn't really that relevant. 10-13 and eliminated by a non-elite Protoss speaks for itself . He's just okay or above-average vP. Show the stats if they're so overwhelming. On July 15 2019 04:24 TaardadAiel wrote:] Decrepit? How? That's the same Stork who destroyed the current ASL champion 3:0 fairly recently. Mini, for his part, doesn't have the best PvT. He got demolished 3:0 by Sharp in the CMSL, IIRC. It's a high-variance game. Best win rates are ~60%, arena anything consistently >50% is solid. Overindexing on small sample sizes isn't my thing Stork has played well recently but he's not dominant either. He's kind of barely holding on. Hyuk could've easily taken him out. He can't overwhelm anyone, can't purely out-skill someone, which lowers his floor and caps his ceiling. I'd love to continue to be proven wrong, though; Stork is one of my favorite players ever. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MAN. | ||
FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 15 2019 23:18 KamMoye wrote: 10-13 and eliminated by a non-elite Protoss speaks for itself . He's just okay or above-average vP. Show the stats if they're so overwhelming. It's a high-variance game. Best win rates are ~60%, arena anything consistently >50% is solid. Overindexing on small sample sizes isn't my thing Stork has played well recently but he's not dominant either. He's kind of barely holding on. Hyuk could've easily taken him out. He can't overwhelm anyone, can't purely out-skill someone, which lowers his floor and caps his ceiling. I'd love to continue to be proven wrong, though; Stork is one of my favorite players ever. Not counting team leagues and foreign tournaments, Sharp went 17-6(8-0) in TvP in the span of seven months(from ASL 6 to Castermuse Starleague). | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 16 2019 00:19 Dazed. wrote: fucking bizarre that you make the argument sharps tvp is mediocre and cite his stats as proof, and then immediately follow that up with, well, broodwar is high variance we shouldnt pay too much attention to small stats. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MAN. I think you need to work on reading comprehension. For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP. How old are you guys? Yeesh. Yes, nuance and complexity exists. It's not rocket science. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 16 2019 00:58 Xain0n wrote: [ Not counting team leagues and foreign tournaments, Sharp went 17-6(8-0) in TvP in the span of seven months(from ASL 6 to Castermuse Starleague). Seven months? Seems like an arbitrary cut-off date to me. Are you going to be transparent or just manipulative? I just discussed how much variance there is. And you're still refusing to concede any points, which makes you sound like you have an agenda. Who did he play? No one cares if he's beating up on dudes like Movie. What's his record v Stork, Mini, Rain, Horang2, Best, Snow? The burden of proof is on you; you're the one tryin to establish Sharp as elite vP, while I'm saying he's simply slightly above average. So if his win% vs top Ps is a standard deviation > his Terran peers, you have a strong argument. Don't care about team or foreign tournaments. Only the best of the best matters. So: sponmatches vs top players < KCM < ASL = KSL | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 16 2019 01:23 KamMoye wrote: Seven months? Seems like an arbitrary cut-off date to me. Are you going to be transparent or just manipulative? I just discussed how much variance there is. And you're still refusing to concede any points, which makes you sound like you have an agenda. Who did he play? Don't care about team or foreign tournaments. Only the best of the best matters. So: sponmatches vs top players < KCM < ASL = KSL It's simply ASL, KSL and Castermuse, just reading Sharp's Liquipedia page(the last tournaments he played in chronological order; the timespan happens to be seven months, it's not something I chose); Rain broke Sharp's TvP streak during KSL 3 and Stork just beat him yesterday, but before this, starting from ASL 6 Sharp defeated Guemchi, Rain, Jaehoon, Movie, Rain, Best and Mini(twice). | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
In the wildcard match for the ASL7, Sharp won against Rain 3:2. Then beat Best in a thriller game on Sylphid in the Ro16. Then won the semi-final match in the KSL2 against Rain 4:3. So that's 4 tournament wins against the two top protosses he's faced (he has a 3:2 versus Movie and 3:1 vs Jaehoon in the KSL2 too) in that timespan. No other tournament matches. We can agree at this point in time he had a good tournament record versus Protoss, yes? 8-5 vs Rain in three matches total, plus another 7-3 versus the other three players makes for a total of 15-8, which is about 65% winrate between ASL6 and the end of KSL2. He won all of his six matches against Protoss in that timeframe. He's been getting figured out lately, in my opinion, and so got beaten 3:1 by Rain in KSL3 and then 2:0 by Horangee in the ASL8 wildcard. This makes it 16-13, not that impressive, I admit, and a 9-8 record against Rain, who is the most consistently performing Protoss player around. And, to be honest, trends and latest results show form better, that's why we're considering results from the last year or so and not his 3:0 loss at the hands of Shuttle in ASL1, which was close to three years ago; you beat a good guy who's been performing well lately - you're doing something right. ASL samples are rather small even if we consider all the seasons, plus form tends to vary widely in time, as you said, and mappools tend to change stuff. My point for Stork is that he's not decrepit - I'll say that again, in the KSL he destroyed defending ASL champion Last 3:0, he destroyed JD (who I'll admit is not in good shape at all, but then again, we thought Stork wasn't either) 3:0, he schooled Best 3:0. I do not think Stork is decrepit, he is in fine shape lately and I hope this will continue. If you have any evidence Stork's latest form is not good, I'd like to see it. I'm not saying he's dominant but there's a large gap between decrepit and dominant, I hope you'll agree. | ||
TiQ.SinGi
Norway384 Posts
scrolling a bit further down: "For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP." I mean, do you hear yourself when you are typing this kind of stuff? Also, should cool it with all the negative attitudes. As far as the ASL group thread goes, all I have seen is you disrespecting almost every progamer you want to "discuss." Maybe I'm just interpreting your posting the wrong way, but it seems very arrogant and hostile. Edit: Never one to derail sorry, the matches for this group were really great! Glad Sharp & Stork made it out. Calm vs Stork was epic, Stork REALLY picking up his stride now. Dino Toss <3 | ||
kidcrash
United States616 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5051 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 16 2019 01:19 KamMoye wrote: You ask us how old we are when you literally shift what you are saying WITHIN one post and then again immediately after. You did say he was mediocre. You did justify it with stats. You then dismissed small sample sizes as meaningless. I think you need to work on reading comprehension. For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP. How old are you guys? Yeesh. Yes, nuance and complexity exists. It's not rocket science. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On July 16 2019 03:39 TaardadAiel wrote: In ASL6 - it started about 11 months ago - Sharp won against then defending champion Rain. In the wildcard match for the ASL7, Sharp won against Rain 3:2. Then beat Best in a thriller game on Sylphid in the Ro16. Then won the semi-final match in the KSL2 against Rain 4:3. So that's 4 tournament wins against the two top protosses he's faced (he has a 3:2 versus Movie and 3:1 vs Jaehoon in the KSL2 too) in that timespan. No other tournament matches. We can agree at this point in time he had a good tournament record versus Protoss, yes? 8-5 vs Rain in three matches total, plus another 7-3 versus the other three players makes for a total of 15-8, which is about 65% winrate between ASL6 and the end of KSL2. He won all of his six matches against Protoss in that timeframe. He's been getting figured out lately, in my opinion, and so got beaten 3:1 by Rain in KSL3 and then 2:0 by Horangee in the ASL8 wildcard. This makes it 16-13, not that impressive, I admit, and a 9-8 record against Rain, who is the most consistently performing Protoss player around. And, to be honest, trends and latest results show form better, that's why we're considering results from the last year or so and not his 3:0 loss at the hands of Shuttle in ASL1, which was close to three years ago; you beat a good guy who's been performing well lately - you're doing something right. ASL samples are rather small even if we consider all the seasons, plus form tends to vary widely in time, as you said, and mappools tend to change stuff. My point for Stork is that he's not decrepit - I'll say that again, in the KSL he destroyed defending ASL champion Last 3:0, he destroyed JD (who I'll admit is not in good shape at all, but then again, we thought Stork wasn't either) 3:0, he schooled Best 3:0. I do not think Stork is decrepit, he is in fine shape lately and I hope this will continue. If you have any evidence Stork's latest form is not good, I'd like to see it. I'm not saying he's dominant but there's a large gap between decrepit and dominant, I hope you'll agree. This is a fair, balanced and informative post. Thank you. 16-13 against elite competition is good. I think the truth was in the middle of our beginning viewpoints: Sharp's vP, upon closer scrutiny, probably isn't as strong as his reputation, but it's not as overrated as I suspected. No, Stork is definitely in better shape now. But he was decrepit for a while. It's going to take more than a few months for me to be convinced it's here to stay. We see hot streaks all the time. Just look at Larva's recent career. There was a recent period he wasn't even qualifying for individual leagues. Then a period where he might be the best Z vT. I value consistency. On July 16 2019 05:51 TiQ.SinGi wrote: "He's just okay or above-average vP" scrolling a bit further down: "For example, at no point did I ever say Sharp is mediocre vP." I mean, do you hear yourself when you are typing this kind of stuff? Also, should cool it with all the negative attitudes. As far as the ASL group thread goes, all I have seen is you disrespecting almost every progamer you want to "discuss." Maybe I'm just interpreting your posting the wrong way, but it seems very arrogant and hostile. Edit: Never one to derail sorry, the matches for this group were really great! Glad Sharp & Stork made it out. Calm vs Stork was epic, Stork REALLY picking up his stride now. Dino Toss <3 No, you just need to read more closely. If you don't like me, report my posts to mods if you think they break a rule, or maybe there's an ignore button. On July 17 2019 00:16 Dazed. wrote: You ask us how old we are when you literally shift what you are saying WITHIN one post and then again immediately after. You did say he was mediocre. You did justify it with stats. You then dismissed small sample sizes as meaningless. Wait, so how old are you, specifically? Seriously. Your reading comprehension is the worst. | ||
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
You don't seem to be entering this discussion with a great deal of sincerity. You have decided that Stork is and Sharp were mediocre and then find a reason to justify it. Even after TaardadAriel's post the most you would concede is that we all still overate him but maybe he wasn't the stock average player you had decided he was, because heaven forbid you just admit you had been making claims based on little to no substance. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
That's cool, dude. I don't care. If you don't like me, ignore me, report me or don't read my posts. If you don't agree with me, that's okay, too--I don't care about your validation. If you want to advance the discussion, sure, let's engage. Otherwise, I hear you. Let's agree to disagree. Otherwise address the substance of my arguments or don't respond. | ||
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