Having noticed a distinct lack of players representing North, Central and South America compared to our friends across BOTH oceans, I've thought about ways to bring back old players and hopefully introduce new players to the joys of Clan Wars. My goal is to reinvigorate the Americas scene and I invite ALL PLAYERS OF ALL SKILL LEVELS of North, Central and South America to participate in the Pan-American Team League.
Due to the size of the post. I've added spoilers to condense it's size.
Pan-American Team League, PATL, is just as it sounds. It is a "proleague"-esque type of tournament that features ONLY Players and Clans from the Americas, facing off each week for the simple sake of saying "Look, my Clan is better and we can back that up because we're the better players."
This, in my mind, is to help invigorate the BW scene and cause friendly competition among BW players. Back in the 2000 - 2008 era of BW, Clan Wars were a VERY common thing and it was 98% of the time done for FUN and "epeen". Clan Pride. My Clan beat your Clan, etc. "Wow NonY is good on Team Media, I want to beat him in the next CW." etc.
This fostered friendly competition among Clans/Teams to help other Clans BEAT rival Clans. It was HEALTHY and HELPFUL in order to ensure players continued to strive to be better. It also didn't hurt if Clan X beat Clan Z giving Clan Y a chance to reach the Play-Offs because of the point system that will be used as explained later.
There is drought of that competitive spirit in our current era of BW besides the CPL which has been having a successful go of things thanks to it's Admins and ACTIVE participants.
To put it simply. I want to see more players from the Americas showing up as some of the strongest players in BW. Right now as it stands, name some of the top foreign BW players. ssizky. Eonzerg. Dewalt. etc etc. Nobody from the Americas. LET'S CHANGE THAT. I remember when people would easily throw out names like Louder, InkA, Future, Jumperer, Machine, LzGaMeR, Nyoken, DinOt, CastrO, DracO, NonY, JP, IdrA, KawaiiRice, etc.
-Better Americas Players -Enjoyment of scheduled Clan competition -People always show up and are encouraged to continue doing so, striving to be better. -Removing the need of "walk-overs" or the feeling of "Wow I took a night off from life to be here and my guy didn't show and I don't get to play, what a waste of time." by including opportunities for Subs.
I'll be following a "ProLeague" format, with some twists. Clan Wars will be Best of 5 matches. With each match being a Best of 1. Each Match is worth ONE point. The Clans/Teams at the end of the Season with the most points move on to the Play-Offs.
All games to be played on US-West or US-East. Each week there will be a designated "Home" Clan/Team and a "Vistor" Clan/Team. The "Home" team will select the desired US-W or US-E server.
So it looks like this: 3 - Bo1 1v1s 1 - Bo1 2v2 1 - Bo1 Ace Match if needed (5 matches total)
Edit: Some people would like Bo3. Let's let the polls decide!
Poll Closed Bo1 Format will be used going forward. The matches will officially be held on Sundays at 10am PST.
Clan "A" will decided which of their players will play in the 1v1s and the 2v2. Clan "A" will send me their lineup. Clan "B" will send me theirs. I then release the lineup and the Clans can then prepare their players for the released MUs. ACE players are decided as needed by Clan Leaders if the matches extend to the 5th match.
To break it down. The following is an EXAMPLE and does not adhere to TRUE facts or stats.
Clan [light]'s Clan Leader, Xeris, receives the Map Lineup from the Admin, PsyonicReaver. Match Point, Circuit Breaker, Hunters and Heartbreak Ridge as the ACE map. Xeris knows Machine does really well on Match Point and decides to play his Zerg there. Knowing that most Clans play Terrans on that map. His hope is that Machine will "snipe" a possible Terran player from the opposing Clan and get an easy win for the [light]. Xeris will play Louder on Circuit Breaker because he knows Louder is a great, all-round player that can handle himself. LzGaMeR and Nyoken will play in the 2v2. If things hit the fan and it goes to the ACE match, Xeris knows IdrA will be around if he needs to use him, arguably his BEST player.
The winners of the Play-Offs will be crowned the Champs of the PATL Season 1.
I've managed to secure funding of prizes for participants via a bonus check from my company that I was NOT expecting. So you heard it here first guys, this is coming from ME personally. Edit: And also from Vortex[eMg] - he donated an additional $100 as well.
$150 to the winning team / This will be split EVENLY among team members, the more members per team, the less each individual person gets but obviously MORE bragging rights.
$75 to 2nd place team.
$50 to 3rd place team.
If I am able to secure additional funding from private donors or crowd funding, I'll update the prize pool accordingly.
2. Once Lineups have been submitted, they are LOCKED to those race Match-Ups on those maps. If a player fails to show for their match but a clanmate is online, they can "sub" themselves into that match but playing as THAT player's race. That means NO RACE PICKING and RANDOM is not allowed.
TO ALSO CLARIFY, one player could possibly sub for his entire team and even doing 1v2 or 1+1AI v 2. The caveat to that is it can only be done ONCE per player per season.
Example: Louder[light] didn't show up for his match vs Artosis[media]. It was a PvT on Circuit Breaker. Luckily Machine[light] is online and can "sub" for Louder. Sadly he can't play his preferred race of Zerg since the MU was submitted as PvT on CB. Machine will have to play as Protoss vs Artosis' Terran.
3. Clans must have AT LEAST 3 players to enter and participate. (No Smurfing to bolster your numbers, if you get caught you will be disqualified and removed from PATL.)
You could, if you want, have a "B" team and a "C" team and so forth all bearing the same Clan tag. These teams would all be seeded into the PATL to play against each other and other Clans.
Example: [light] has 20 members of their clan. The odds of EVERYONE getting to play each week is low. Xeris wants everyone to have fun and play. He decides to retain his top 4 best players as [light] Team "A" his next 4 as [light] Team "B", etc and so forth. OR if he was CRAZY he could split his "best" players among multiple teams filled with his "mediocre" players. This would foster more friendly competition inside the Clan and against other Clans. That's Xeris call to make as Clan Leader.
4. When the PATL starts players are "locked" to their Clan/Team, THEY CAN NOT MOVE TO A NEW CLAN/TEAM DURING THE CURRENT PATL SEASON. Only Players from Team "A" can "sub" for Team "A". You can NOT get players from Team "B" to sub for Team "A".
You can recruit new players and remove players from teams as needed but you can NOT swap them between sub-teams every other week to better your odds. I'll get tired of that real quick and lock players down to a single team for the rest of the season. If it's a once per season thing, that's fine.
If a player TRUELY defects from one Team to another Team I'll consider that on a case by case basis but if it happens every other week... I'll get tired of that real quick and lock you down to just one team the rest of the season. If it's a once per season thing, that's fine.
5. English is PREFERRED but NOT required to participate. I am fluent in Spanish, if any Spanish Players/Clans need help organizing, contact me via PM.
6. Players MUST LIVE AND RESIDE in the North, Central or South Americas to participate.
If you want to help in some way but not play. PM me about how you feel you could be involved. Interested Persons for Helping/Casting + Show Spoiler +
The purpose of THAT thread is to keep discussion THERE focused PURELY on smack talk, matches, finding play times, etc. That is also where I'll post lineups and results.
This thread will remain to discuss the league in general and where people can bring their questions for me to answer.
You know I also want to take this moment to thank someone that is not part of our community anymore but is the person that taught me HOW to run tournaments, even if it does not make you popular at times. I watched him run many, many tournaments over the years and if I hadn't, I don't think I would have the heart to attempt this.
Duran "Xeris" Parsi. Thank you.
This guy. This guy has done SO much for the American scene between 2002 and 2014 and it's really sad that there isn't a Liquipedia page on him. He has run SO many tournaments big (NASL) and small (Yankee League).
He used to run weekly, monthly, yearly tournaments ALL the time and I have no idea how he did it. He was considered by MANY players the best Admin to run any tournament, he was often consulted by WCG on how to run the USA tournaments.
He also took a chance on me to cast Yankee League when it first started, arguably him giving me that opportunity lead me to being noticed more and more around the community as a caster. I worked hard to promote myself but I will admit. If Xeris never took the chance on me, I do not think I would have ever gained the popularity that I did that allowed me to participate in the casting crew for THREE WCGs in a row.
Xeris. I deticate this League to you. Wherever you are.
I've also created a DISCORD for PATL to help Team Leaders AND Players coordinate to play their games. Discord is FREE to use on your web browser or you can download the APP on your PC or Phone. https://discord.gg/pyRjjkt
As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think ICCup is going to be the best place to run this league (if I understood your intentions correctly). It would make the most sense to pull clans that are on USE/USW; there are at least a few that have a presence there.
It sounds fun - I support it fully. Of course, this is all contingent upon a lot of BW players returning, new players joining, and clans being formed - which I would think is likely. I'm not sure how long you want to wait before opening signups, but I would think like a month into SC:R?
On August 09 2017 16:42 Ty2 wrote: I was thinking about the latter. That was how it was for the iCCup Nation League at least.
Both systems have pros and cons but as far as I know, ICC NL was the only tournament of its type and magnitude to do this. All other major team tournaments, most notably SPL, had a Bo1 format. This is all to say that I don't think it makes sense to base tournament expectations on ICC NL; having that format as a preference is of course okay though Me personally, I prefer Bo1 for teamleagues.
On August 09 2017 15:42 GGzerG wrote: Sounds cool, I'm interested.
I guess you will be the sole representative of [Shield] ?
Everyone, please share this thread with ANYONE of ANY skill level. This won't take off if there isn't enough interest. Share it at school or facebook or were ever. I would love to organize this and have it take off.
I would definitely be in for this. (I'm obviously terrible though)
I have a suggestion (due to the inevitable unreliable clans that will register and high maintenance that will be required).
You might want to consider getting the line ups for the entire season at the start of the thing, then put together a loose schedule of when the games should be played, inserting them into the proper CW slots thereafter. It would help with preparation, if one player is super dedicated, you would be giving them an advantage. It would also help with maintenance of the league, giving the potential of several matches getting played ahead of time where you would otherwise have to chase after people.
On August 10 2017 02:14 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Im interested, and I agree with Ty2 about the format. Bo3 is better, and the 2v2 shouldnt be weighted heavier than 1v1.
Why do you think Bo3 is better? I'm curious I think there are pros and cons to both Bo3 and Bo1, so it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on why one is clearly above the other. After all, there must be a reason why SPL used Bo1.
I'm in the process of making a team as well, if anyone is interested in joining a up and coming competitive team on USWest PM me yo. (Yea looking for a clan thread for BW would be good once there is enough clans lol)
To weigh in a bit on the format, I think best of 1 is better for viewership and adds to the drama (in a positive way). In a world where all of the clan wars are played at a single time (matches one after the other) with all of the clans in attendance, I think best of 1s are strictly better
If the matches are played a bit all over the place over the course of a week, best of 3 is the better option. If you're logging in for a single match, it's pretty lame and you don't get any of the perks that best of 1s bring to this type of event.
On August 10 2017 02:14 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Im interested, and I agree with Ty2 about the format. Bo3 is better, and the 2v2 shouldnt be weighted heavier than 1v1.
Why do you think Bo3 is better? I'm curious I think there are pros and cons to both Bo3 and Bo1, so it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on why one is clearly above the other. After all, there must be a reason why SPL used Bo1.
I donno what format SPL is in, but im sure they had some broadcasting time restraints that wouldve made bo1 the preferred format. Speaking as a player, I want to win and I want that win to represent accurately that I am the superior player over my opponent. Since many different scenarios can occur in which I or my opponent can demonstrate our skill, the best format is one that reduces variance the most, meaning the most games possible to cover the most amount of strategical ground. But, since people have shit to do other than BW too, bo3 is generally a good option that usually takes less than an hour and can be fitted into a persons day without too much difficulty while still being vastly superior to just 1 game. ALso, 2-3 games are just more fun to play than one, regardless of the variance argument. I dont log into BW to play a single game, I log on to play multiple games, one is not enough.
Good input from Eywa and DragOn. The polls are currently 45% Bo1 and 55% Bo3. So it seems people are slightly favoring Bo3 format, let's give it some more time. No decision needs to be made now but I would LOVE to hear what everyone else things, WHO are these other voters not chiming in?
DragOn would the rest of PaiN be joining in the tournament as well?
I dont know about the rest of PaiN, perhaps some members are interested but as a whole PaiN is largely dead/inactive and I dont have a strong affiliation with them these days. Im not sure what ill do for a team atm
Add me please, aka SuGo ... no team right now. I'll probably play on the same team as Dragon though, whatever that is. Or whatever team wants to add me; I personally don't care that much.
And agree to what some others said ... why would this be on iccup. 1.16 is about to die (it already is). Host it on 1.19 / SCR on one of the servers... maybe East.
On August 10 2017 09:36 ProtossGG wrote: Add me please, aka SuGo ... no team right now. I'll probably play on the same team as Dragon though, whatever that is. Or whatever team wants to add me; I personally don't care that much.
And agree to what some others said ... why would this be on iccup. 1.16 is about to die (it already is). Host it on 1.19 / SCR on one of the servers... maybe East.
Yep. I've mentioned in the post how US-W or US-E are the servers required and how there will be home teams and visitor teams. No worries. 1.19 is the required patch. I was only linking the iccup rules because there is no reason to copy/paste what is already provided for those new and unfamiliar with the rules.
On August 10 2017 09:55 SchAmToo wrote: Gimme a schedule to cast these without work being in the way and I'm 100% interested.
My reasoning for Bo1 is specifically because it creates the chance for upsets and one-trick builds that come as a result of studying the map, the opponent, and related VODs of progamers. If SuperForeignTeam signs up as SFT-SuGo, SFT-DragOn, etc. And they are matched with CPL Student Squaaaad with CSS-evilEye, CSS-darkmatter, etc. Then it will be a roll 100% of the time with CSS never getting a single match win. But in Bo1, a real upset can happen if a player prepares well enough. SuGo got beaten by (CSS-)PiSan in CSL many years ago, and dropped games to other lesser players, often because they came up with an innovative cheese. There was a game between Bard and draw that was insane in CSL and it was for all the marbles for our team - it really raises the stakes and the antics.
In other words, in a Bo3 series we can roughly predict 90% of the matches because of the wide disparity in skill in the foreign BW scene, unless people randomly got matched up who are roughly of the same skill. In a Bo1, the unknown lower ranked player can use the wealth of replays of better known players and TL's resources to give themselves some minor chance of upsetting Goliath as David.
As a result, series will have the potential to be more interesting to watch because far fewer games will become a predictable. It forces players to practice one map per week and to create special strategies for them, because if it's Loser Pick in Bo3 then SFT-Lancerx can just fire up FS or CB in game two and force CSS-RandomScrub to potentially have to come up with two well-rehearsed builds and cheeses on two different maps in order to eke out a single set win. This is part of what made SPL so incredible to watch - like when Jaedong (almost?) lost to Reality's proxy rax into fast fac into fast wraith build which was designed for that map and player. It makes broadcasting all of the games a more tangible exercise, which also minimizes the need for back and forth communication between multiple parties about which games to recommend. It makes a potential ace match format much more viable and interesting.
In short, the main reason why I prefer Bo1 is because it evens the playing field slightly if someone is willing to put in the effort, thus making it more hype for everyone. The fact of Brood War is that the "better" player doesn't always win, and it should be that way in the competitive sphere as well.
Ok, so Psy and I talked a bunch about this the other day before he posted, and I had some slightly different ideas than he does, but I really like what he's done here.
Here's the two parts that I think would be better, and why: 1 - Each "Team" should have a max of 2-3 (or 4 maybe) players. Why? A number of reasons. 1a - More teams = more participants. Any "league" like this will benefit from increased activity, so if you have clans submitting more than one team, it highly increases participation. Participation is the lifeblood of events like this, and the more you as the participants get to actually be involved, the more likely you are to keep track, remember to login at your time, etc.
1b - People get to play more. If you have a clan with 14 people in it here, then only a few get to play. If you have, say, WCE Team A, Team B, Team C, then you end up with 3x as many people playing. Honestly, in my perfect world idea, each team would be only 2 players and everyone would always show up and everyone would get to play, but the idea is that you have a paired team play most of the games and someone else would fill in if they can't show due to real life, etc.
1c - Rivalries develop more easily, breeding more intense competition. This can include between clans (all of results of all WCE vs SCC matches) or even rivalry inside the clan (Can SCC Team B beat SCC Team A?) Better competition leads to better desire to be good and beat your friends, be #1, etc.
There are definitely arguments to NOT follow this, but to me, I think this is the best way to go about it. I want everyone to feel like being a participant of the event is important, and the best way to do that is to ensure activity and participation. I don't want people to sign up and do nothing, and I'm fairly certain most players also don't want to sign up and do nothing.
2 - My idea of a match would be like this - note, I did not explain this to Psy very well, so he didn't ever see this.
Game 1 - Team 1, Player 1 -vs- Team 2, Player 1 Game 2 - Team 1, Player 2 -vs- Team 2, Player 2 (those would happen at the same time) Game 3 - 2v2 Match Game 4 - Team 1, Player 2 -vs- Team 2, Player 1 Game 5 - Team 1, Player 1 -vs- Team 2, Player 2 (these would also happen at the same time, if they are required)
That way, if it was needed, it would be like a small round robin, each of the two players on each team would play the other two. I know the allure of the "Ace" match though, so maybe Psy's way is better. I just think like a robot, all logic!
I didn't delve into BO1 or BO3 though - I figured that would be up for discussion later.
I know back in 2007/08/09 the players considered as USA Team B in the Iccup Nation League practiced A LOT harder to one day be considered for Team A. Hell sometimes Team B would do better than Team A in Nation League.
I'm not opposed to having smaller teams.
I am unsure of the round robin idea. The fun of an ACE match, if it comes to it, is nobody knows WHO is playing until it is decided, leaving almost no prep time for either player. That's why ACE matches were always fun to watch in ProLeague because you KNEW it was generally going to be the "best" players facing off in an epic match.
And in response to Jealous. I feel exactly as you did. That's what made ProLeague so damn fun to watch, watching UpMaGiC pull some funky (although now it's sad because he was match fixing) build out of nowhere and somehow WINNING (or LOSING hilariously) but that also allowed other "lesser" players a chance to beat Bisu, JD, Flash, Boxer, etc.
cool thanks for making a good thread like this, i will try to get a team together for it, i am going to suggest a bo1, i dont like it as much as bo3, but from my experience playing in these clan leagues, bo3 can take ages, especially if strict walkover times are not enforced. it can turn 3 simple games into a 2 hour ordeal (seriously)... and when that kind of thing happens multiple times it can be super annoying
On August 10 2017 10:17 Jealous wrote: My reasoning for Bo1 is specifically because it creates the chance for upsets and one-trick builds that come as a result of studying the map, the opponent, and related VODs of progamers. If SuperForeignTeam signs up as SFT-SuGo, SFT-DragOn, etc. And they are matched with CPL Student Squaaaad with CSS-evilEye, CSS-darkmatter, etc. Then it will be a roll 100% of the time with CSS never getting a single match win. But in Bo1, a real upset can happen if a player prepares well enough. SuGo got beaten by (CSS-)PiSan in CSL many years ago, and dropped games to other lesser players, often because they came up with an innovative cheese. There was a game between Bard and draw that was insane in CSL and it was for all the marbles for our team - it really raises the stakes and the antics.
In other words, in a Bo3 series we can roughly predict 90% of the matches because of the wide disparity in skill in the foreign BW scene, unless people randomly got matched up who are roughly of the same skill. In a Bo1, the unknown lower ranked player can use the wealth of replays of better known players and TL's resources to give themselves some minor chance of upsetting Goliath as David.
As a result, series will have the potential to be more interesting to watch because far fewer games will become a predictable. It forces players to practice one map per week and to create special strategies for them, because if it's Loser Pick in Bo3 then SFT-Lancerx can just fire up FS or CB in game two and force CSS-RandomScrub to potentially have to come up with two well-rehearsed builds and cheeses on two different maps in order to eke out a single set win. This is part of what made SPL so incredible to watch - like when Jaedong (almost?) lost to Reality's proxy rax into fast fac into fast wraith build which was designed for that map and player. It makes broadcasting all of the games a more tangible exercise, which also minimizes the need for back and forth communication between multiple parties about which games to recommend. It makes a potential ace match format much more viable and interesting.
In short, the main reason why I prefer Bo1 is because it evens the playing field slightly if someone is willing to put in the effort, thus making it more hype for everyone. The fact of Brood War is that the "better" player doesn't always win, and it should be that way in the competitive sphere as well.
This is a valid point. What if myself, Dragon, Ty2, and Babo make a 4 player team like that. If it's BO3, it could be difficult for other teams to compete. Not saying it's not fun that way, but I can understand it from Jealou's perspective. No offense, but overall, "Americas" (north/south) isn't really that strong. How many A-players are there actually? I still vouch BO3, because I feel the better player should prevail and that's what matters more than winning a bo1 using some random all-in play.
I'd be quite interested in playing in this (clanless). Awesome initiative!
I voted for bo3 in the poll because I prefer that as a competitor. If you do plan on putting a bunch of effort into streaming all of the games in the league with a solid level of casting, then I think a bo1 is better for the spectators and casters.
Oh, nice catch. I totally disagree with 2v2 being weighted differently than 1v1 games. 2v2 stopped being an official game mode in SPL in what, 2007? I suspect that many people coming to the scene since than have focused on 1v1 much more. While having 2v2 in the list is not a bad idea, giving it double points doesn't make much sense imo.
Actually, on second thought - personally I don't understand the appeal of having any 2v2 matches. In my experience with any type of team match - the 2v2s are almost always two teammates partnering up for the sake of the match without prior 2v2 practice or strategy.
There are some players that only play 2v2 exclusively and are quite good but not as good as 1v1.
I was thinking it gave more options for those that don't feel confident enough in their 1v1 but wanted to still play. 2v2 is the only left option I can think of. Hence why I weighted it more to help those players 1. Show up for their game because it's weighted more and 2. Make them feel important to the team.
I also remember in Yankee League some of the Lesser teams only stood a chance against some of the better teams because they would almost always win the 2v2 because the better teams would almost never practice for it.
This lead to some great matches going to ace match and allowing the best players from both teams to duke it out and sometimes the lesser team would end up taking the whole series because of it
On August 10 2017 23:45 Dead9 wrote: if u weight it the closest possible outcomes are 3-2 or 2-3 with no ace match
i think 2v2 is an interesting game mode. like u said, if nothing else it'll give more players a chance to participate
Points have nothing to do with who wins the overall matches. 1 team could win three matches to two with only three points awarded to each side.
Points determine who goes on to play in the playoffs ants eating points did not determine a winner of the clan vs Clan matches.
Maybe to offset the discrepancy in points Ace matches could also be worth two points that way there is a clear Point winner as well
I can't agree with this system where the clan that won the overall series could potentially walk away with less or equal points because you assigned 2 points to a game mode that has seen very little high level exposure or focus in the past 10 years.
I don't see the need to overcomplicate things. Just make every game 1 point, including ace match. Giving the winner a swing of 2 points is exactly what would create insurmountable point differences later in the league. It would also then make sense for teams to intentionally drop a set when they are 2-1 or 3-2 or whatever just to get double the points from their ace match if again it's team Sziky vs . Team OurBestPlayerIsConICCup.
Sorry if this has been answered but if a team is based in NA can it use any players outside of NA? Like if there were a limit to 1 "foreigner" per cw or whatever. Thanks for info.
Bo1s are better, especially if the intent is to have some of the matches broadcasted (not all of the games would have to be played simultaneously, for example.)
2v2s are fine for fluff leagues like this. Dedicated 2s players are very rare, and people won't go out of their way to practice 2s, so the games will always kinda be random. But personally for a league like this I think it could be fun
Let me be clear when I say that this is an Americas League that means anyone from Canada North America Mexico Central America South America Brazil Cuba Puerto Rico this is all for just us this also includes Hawaii and Guam if they want to so yeah.
You can mix the team's however you want you can be purely Canadian versus everyone you can have one Chilean one American one guatemalan as long as you live and reside in the United States at the time of the league starting you can participate so if you're a Korean living in the United States and you want to participate that's fine but if you're an American living outside the United States you cannot participate
By the way does anyone know how to reach out to our Spanish-speaking brood War community in Central and South America I don't know any websites off the top of my head that's still cater to brood War
Edit for clarification: if there are Korean's that live here on a temp pass like a visitor's visa or something like that then they are not eligible to play. you Need to Be an actual resident of the Americas permanently living here
On August 10 2017 23:45 Dead9 wrote: if u weight it the closest possible outcomes are 3-2 or 2-3 with no ace match
i think 2v2 is an interesting game mode. like u said, if nothing else it'll give more players a chance to participate
Points have nothing to do with who wins the overall matches. 1 team could win three matches to two with only three points awarded to each side.
Points determine who goes on to play in the playoffs ants eating points did not determine a winner of the clan vs Clan matches.
Maybe to offset the discrepancy in points Ace matches could also be worth two points that way there is a clear Point winner as well
I can't agree with this system where the clan that won the overall series could potentially walk away with less or equal points because you assigned 2 points to a game mode that has seen very little high level exposure or focus in the past 10 years.
I don't see the need to overcomplicate things. Just make every game 1 point, including ace match. Giving the winner a swing of 2 points is exactly what would create insurmountable point differences later in the league. It would also then make sense for teams to intentionally drop a set when they are 2-1 or 3-2 or whatever just to get double the points from their ace match if again it's team Sziky vs . Team OurBestPlayerIsConICCup.
I agree with Jealous too. Some teams won't have any regular 2v2 players out of only three or four players on a team, so if it's worth double they have no chance.
Okay. It seems adding more points to some MU is a resounding NO. Good feedback. I've edited OP accordingly.
I've also updated Rule 2 as well about subbing.
I want to be clear that I will not be removing 2v2 from the Clan War. I feel it was an integral part of StarCraft for 9 years during the Nation Wars and ProLeague and created a unique viewing experience. I loved casting 2v2 in Yankee League and they were actually some of my more popular videos BECAUSE of the lack of exposure they normally get.
BUT
If 2v2 is truly hated/disliked by the end of season 1. I will not include it in season 2. Does that sound like a fair compromise?
On August 11 2017 05:23 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Okay. It seems adding more points to some MU is a resounding NO. Good feedback. I've edited OP accordingly.
I've also updated Rule 2 as well about subbing.
I want to be clear that I will not be removing 2v2 from the Clan War. I feel it was an integral part of StarCraft for 9 years during the Nation Wars and ProLeague and created a unique viewing experience. I loved casting 2v2 in Yankee League and they were actually some of my more popular videos BECAUSE of the lack of exposure they normally get.
BUT
If 2v2 is truly hated/disliked by the end of season 1. I will not include it in season 2. Does that sound like a fair compromise?
I think leaving the 2v2 is fair.
I like it, it's had interesting results in previous nation wars.
Another fluff idea I was thinking of. If I could get the TL mods to approve it. Would it be fun to add the Clan Wars to Liquidbet? Maybe the person that wins Liquidbet gets a $5 gift card. Or perhaps create some other form of betting. (For fun!)
While I think it would be cool to have something of that nature, I much prefer Liquibet being based on mostly Korean and top level foreign events. It's unreasonable to ask people to bet on unrestricted no payout amateur leagues using the same system as the one they bet on ASL.
To be completely honest, I don't think using that feature would make people already interested or participating in the league care any extra, and I imagine it would piss off people who don't care about low level competition but still like to keep track of the pro scene. I'm not sure how "big" you're planning on making this but with no money incentive and with the skill level of some of the people interested in this (no offense to anyone - I think it's fantastic that people of all levels are interested in participating in clan leavues), I don't think being listed on Liquibet a reasonable request or expectation. Of course I am not an admin or anything, just my opinion.
On August 11 2017 06:17 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: There will be.
Another fluff idea I was thinking of. If I could get the TL mods to approve it. Would it be fun to add the Clan Wars to Liquidbet? Maybe the person that wins Liquidbet gets a $5 gift card. Or perhaps create some other form of betting. (For fun!)
I remember GosuGamers had a betting system for foreign clan league events like this and I always thought it was cool. I'd definitely be in favor of having something similar
I want to say thank you to everyone that has posted so far with your thoughts and comments. I wanted to give a bit of an update on the time table of things and see if we could focus discussion on that.
My thoughts on a season of ACW is that it would start September 1st. 3 weeks from now and end the entire season AND playoffs by December 15.
I was tentatively thinking based on how many clans/people signed up of doing matches I would LOVE to do matches EVERY week. That's 16 weeks straight of StarCraft. Would it be best to hold games on Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays? OR give people a week to play games at their leisure with a hard date to turn in replays?
If once a week is too hardcore, we can discuss every other week options.
Poll will decide. The Poll will CLOSE in 1 week. The POLL for which format bo1 or Bo3 will close in 1 week as well. 12pm Friday the 18th. I've updated the OP with the new Poll.
From my experience with CPL, that should be an acceptable duration and requirement for games played per week. Having flexible game times (play during this week whenever you two decide if one of you can't make it to the set game time) and of course a set game time worked pretty well for CPL. As with all amateur foreign leagues, even with that freedom included, there will still be absenteeism and there is nothing you can do about it besides make strict and unchanging rules about what happens when someone doesn't play/show up.
In other words, I think that poll is poorly designed. There should be one poll for whether there should be a week of freedom to set a personal time with your opponent, and then another poll to determine what should be the "official" game time.
So to clarify to everyone. What is being suggested is that clans will have the option to play anytime during the week but are REQUIRED to play no later than Friday/Sat/Sun during the official play time.
And it looks like Sunday is becoming the fan favorite thus far. Once we've locked down a date. I'll discuss official play times.
On August 12 2017 02:03 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: I'm not opposed to that. More freedom is better.
So to clarify to everyone. What is being suggested is that clans will have the option to play anytime during the week but are REQUIRED to play no later than Friday/Sat/Sun during the official play time.
And it looks like Sunday is becoming the fan favorite thus far. Once we've locked down a date. I'll discuss official play times.
Feck I accidentally voted for Sunday instead of Saturday. Plz adjust at the end for this. Sunday is no bueno
Please keep me in mind for any casting down the road. I know it's kinda of a ways out but i'll be available in 7 weeks. This is a great idea and people need to get in on this.
On August 12 2017 06:09 SCC-Faust wrote: Ya'll sup boys, PM me to get in on this SCC team. We have a pretty solid line-up so far. We are in it to win it.
I think we can agree that we need to make a Looking for Clan thread, so we don't spam for members in here --
On August 10 2017 23:22 Salv wrote: Actually, on second thought - personally I don't understand the appeal of having any 2v2 matches. In my experience with any type of team match - the 2v2s are almost always two teammates partnering up for the sake of the match without prior 2v2 practice or strategy.
In the case of dM- this is not true, they run very strong 2v2 teams. I say keep the 2v2 but have it on the same footing as the 1v1s, not double. Also BO3 for me in the poll.
Polls CLOSE TOMORROW at 12pm PST. Get your votes in if you haven't yet.
Once I nail down a few more details, I'm going to start hammering at you guys posting about Clan X and Clan Y wants to play but then you fuckers don't tell me shit about how many people are actually going to play and if you're going to split yourselves into sub teams within your clan or not. *shakes old man fist*
I'm also working behind the scenes to get you guys something better for 1st/2nd places finishes other than my mighty handshake. Stay tuned.
I want to clarify something real quick.
If there was MAYBE possibly *wink wink* *nudge nudge* HOPEFULLY a cash prize..... Splitting it amongst 4 people is alot easier than 10 people.... But that's up to you guys to decide.
There is nothing that prevents bigger clans from breaking themselves down into smaller Clan [LighT] Team A Clan [LighT] Team B etc. But if Team B of only 4 people wins, ONLY team B and those 4 players get the possible prize money.
If Clan [LighT] goes at this with 20 people on the roster, then the prize is split EVENLY among those 20 people, even if HALF of them don't play or quit halfway through. Football 3rd string kickers still get a SuperBowl ring even if they never kick the entire season.
Hope that helps some people.
Also if people think there may be a better name than Americas Clan Wars. I'm all ears. I've heard some people say it seems confusing to say.
Some people have recommended
American ProLeague Americas ProLeague InterAmerica Clan War
I'm also interested in casting, but I can't cast super late which is when you might want this casted. But keep that in mind since Sayle is interested and he's on the same timezone as me.
At exactly 12pm the polls were split 50/50. 39 votes for each format.
This is very important to those wanting to participate and I've had several discussions with differing people on Bo1 vs Bo3 formats. The pros and cons.
I will cast a tie breaker vote based on what I feel is going to be, at this time, the most beneficial for the League.
Bo1 will be the format of choice for Season 1.
Based on all the other INDIVIDUAL tournaments taking place. HAY. SK. ESL. Clash for Char... There are plenty of Bo3 opportunities out there. For a Clan/Team setting. I feel Bo1 will be the best way to start out this Clan League.
I'm not opposed to doing Bo3 for season 2 and I will reopen the polls at that time in the future and ask the community once again to voice their opinion on it.
For now, again, the decision is final. Bo1 format which will be held officially every Sunday at 10am PST.
On August 19 2017 08:10 FyRe_DragOn wrote: yo so can 1 player play 1v1, 2v2 and ace or how does that work?
Yes, yes and yes. You need at least THREE people minimum in your clan/team to participate. If for some reason you have 2 out of your 3 people NOT show up for a match during the week....
See rule 2.
"TO ALSO CLARIFY, one player could possibly sub for his entire team and even doing 1v2 or 1+1AI v 2. The caveat to that is it can only be done ONCE per player per season."
So if Player X plays 2 1v1's and in the 2v2 AND the ACE match. It doesn't break that rule. It's only if that same player has to play every single game during that specific match vs another team that he uses his once in a season sub for all players card. So to speak.
I need a FINAL COUNT of how many TEAMS/CLANS will be participating BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK. Friday the 25th by 12pm PST.
YOU (YES YOU) NEED TO PM ME. I need your Clan/Team name, how MANY people are in your Clan. I also need to know if you are breaking your Clan down into smaller SUB-teams.
Examples:
"Hi, this is DerpaDerp of Clan Derp. We have 20 players. We will be playing as one SINGLE team. Here are the names of everyone that will be playing. We want to be considered as a US-West clan." (This is fine, that means you have lots of people to choose from each week to play your matches and lots of subs as needed.)
"Hi, this is PoopyPoo of Clan Poo. We have 10 players but we are going to have TWO teams. Poo Team A and Poo Team B. There will be 5 players on each team. The players on Poo Team A are ... and the players on Poo Team B are... Both teams are considered US-West. (OR you can have 1 be West and 1 be East. Just tell me!) (This is a well balanced approach!)
"Hi this is SCC-Faust of the StarCraft Confederacy. I have no friends, except like these 2 other guys I just found so I guess they are my friends. I don't know. We're only 3 players on this team. Their names are ... and we are US-East." (Be careful! If people don't show up to matches you could find yourself losing lots of points for not having enough players showing up to play their games!)
THE FIRST MATCHUPS/MAPS WILL BE RELEASED AUGUEST 27TH!
THE FIRST OFFICIAL MATCHS WILL BE PLAYED NO LATER THAN SEPT 3RD! (That means you have between August 27th and Sept 3rd to play your matches!)
Sept 3rd at 10am PST is the OFFICIAL start time to play your match vs your opponent if neither person was able to play their match earlier in the week. You will meet on the HOME Teams server in the official channel. If 10min passes and your opponent is a no show, the other team can sub someone in playing for that person's race. If NOBODY from the other team shows up, you can PM me with a screenshot showing you having typed /time (This will give me a timestamp/date to verify) and you will get the point via walkover.
THE OFFICIAL MAPPOOL These are not in order and will be rotated around each week.
1v1 Map Pool Fighting Spirit Neo Medusa Blue Storm Circuit Breaker Sin Peaks of Baekdu Tau Cross
2v2 Map Pool Vampire Hannibal Fighting Spirit Fortress SE
YOUR LINEUP IS FINAL AFTER AUG 25th. You can change it as many times as you want UNTIL THEN.
If after Aug 25th you're a team of 3 and one player suddenly drops out leaving you short handed. I will review these issues on a case by case basis. If I deem it okay, you can recruit ONE new person to replace the person that dropped out but I want to STRESS that if your team starts having problems like that already, things are probably NOT going to go well for you anyways...
UPDATE I've managed to secure funding of prizes for participants via a bonus check from my company that I was NOT expecting. So you heard it here first guys, this is coming from ME personally.
$100 to the winning team.
$50 to 2nd place team.
$25 to 3rd place team.
Money won will be split EVENLY among team members, the more members per team, the less each individual person gets but obviously MORE bragging rights for the team as a whole. (Bragging rights is worth more honestly.)
I know this is not OMG WOW money but this is a STEP UP from winning nothing before.
If I am able to secure additional funding from private donors or crowd funding, I'll update the prize pool accordingly.
Also I'm changing the name of this from Americas Clan Wars (ACW) to
VexX is actively looking for more players for this league, if you need a team feel free to PM, we are an active clan on USWest. Op VexX- @ USWest. Hype for the league.
On August 21 2017 08:54 GGzerG wrote: VexX is actively looking for more players for this league, if you need a team feel free to PM, we are an active clan on USWest. Op VexX- @ USWest. Hype for the league.
How will updating the roster throughout the season work? My team is still in process of recruiting so we don't have a final list, I sent you a PM though.
On August 22 2017 15:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: There is no updating throughout the season unless it leaves your team with less than 3 players in which case we'd have a chat about what is going on.
The reason I'm not allowing changes after the season starts is I want people to be determined to play and participate and not flake out after a week. This encourages those that sign up to take it seriously.
I totally understand but I would hope you take into consideration that, depending on how long the season lasts, many teams go through a lot of roster changes and also not all players might be able to play on that exact time slot every week.
Most team leagues in the past allowed you to make edits to your roster like adding and removing players within a few days of the clan war date. For example, I could submit to you that player X on my team is no longer with us and we recruited players A B and C and would like the on the roster for us to choose from in the upcoming clan war.
Doing it the way you're saying you're going to run into a LOT of walkovers T_T
I agree with you. My whole goal is to make this as easy as possible for people to play. I'll update the OP.
I want to STRESS one more time this League is ONLY for those living in Pan-America. I hope people will be honest about this and not include those who live in other places of the world. If PATL works out. I'll create something to include those players from other countries in the future. Right now the goal of PATL is make the Americas great again so that we can actually compete with those countries.
To be clear. Your team/clan must be at least 3 people to participate BUT I need a PM telling me your clan/team is playing NO LATER THAN FRIDAY AUG 25 12pm PST.
I'm also going to release the week 1 map pool so players can start preparing and Team Leaders can consider who they want to play on which maps.
Week 1
Set 1 - Tau Cross - 1v1 Set 2 - Fighting Spirit - 1v1 Set 3 - Fortress SE - 2v2 Set 4 - Circuit Breaker - 1v1 ACE - Fighting Spirit - 1v1
so what exactly are you changing in the rules? I checked the OP but didnt see anything. I have a roster to submit and im wondering if I can now edit it after the 25th as well.
I just need to know if a Team is going to participate and if it's going to be ONE team like eMg or multiple teams like SSC. It would be nice to know the initial lineup of players that I can add to the OP but it will be possible to add or remove players during a season.
I don't know if I'll be able to assemble a team, unless there's a rag-tag group of individuals still looking for a team once all the other rosters are in, I don't see it.
I'll take any skill level.
If not and a team still needs players for a B team I would be in.
Can I have a C team too? I think I want to split my B team up into two groups cause I have a lot of CPL players that I want to be on their own team. Think it'd be cool.
Would it be easier for me to have casters cast on their own channels and then upload their casts to an official PATL YouTube Channel or just randomly link to casters twitch and/or youtube videos to a dedicated PATL thread here on TL?
On August 23 2017 09:33 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: I also have another request from the community.
Would it be easier for me to have casters cast on their own channels and then upload their casts to an official PATL YouTube Channel or just randomly link to casters twitch and/or youtube videos to a dedicated PATL thread here on TL?
In my experience one official channel does make things easier but I also expect some casters to want their content on their page. A bit of both would probably be best, with am organized liquipedia VOD page and perhaps a reserved post below the OP for the official thread for all the links.
One official Twitch channel is good. If casters are casting at different times, get them all in one chat and schedule things so that everyone is using the channel on their own time.
Need to allow casters to upload the videos to their own channel though. You can always make a playlist later of all the games that have been casted from multiple channels. In the short-term, if someone doesn't know where to look, they can always watch it on Twitch VoDs.
It's been outlined in the rules but I guess the point wasn't coming across directly so I made it more clear. I'll post it again.
See Rule 2
2. Once Lineups have been submitted, they are LOCKED to those race Match-Ups on those maps. If a player fails to show for their match but a clanmate is online, they can "sub" themselves into that match but playing as THAT player's race. That means NO RACE PICKING and RANDOM is not allowed.
TO ALSO CLARIFY, one player could possibly sub for his entire team and even doing 1v2 or 1+1AI v 2. The caveat to that is it can only be done ONCE per player per season.
Example: Louder[light] didn't show up for his match vs Artosis[media]. It was a PvT on Circuit Breaker. Luckily Machine[light] is online and can "sub" for Louder. Sadly he can't play his preferred race of Zerg since the MU was submitted as PvT on CB. Machine will have to play as Protoss vs Artosis' Terran.
This has ALWAYS been in the OP. I just ONLY TODAY added the NO RACE PICKING and NO RANDOM allowed because it wasn't coming across clearly enough.
Team Leaders will pick a race to play on X map with Y player. If Y player doesn't show up then V player can play for Y player but as Y player's race.
I thought the example was pretty clear.
This is also to clear up the bullshit confusion of well I only play TvZ, PvT and ZvP situations that ALWAYS happen. You pick 1 race, you play that 1 race. ProLeague Style.
If you flake out and can't make your match, why punish the other team by suddenly throwing a race into the mix that the other player didn't prepare for. So again let me BE VERY CLEAR.
If Team Leader Faust PMs me and says "Hey. Ty2 is playing Terran on Fighting Spirit." And then Team Leader DragOn PMs me and states "I'm sending a Protoss, I'll be playing on that map" That MAP and MU are LOCKED once lineups are submitted and I release them publicly.
If DragOn flakes out and then his team sends a Zerg player to sub for him. That's not fair to Ty2 who has been practicing TvP on that map the whole week now suddenly it's a TvZ. It's not fair to him that DragOn didn't show. So that Zerg player that is subbing for DragOn has to play Protoss.
If people would read ALL the rules, this has been here for WEEKS already. I just made it more CLEAR.
End of discussion.
Edit: What I mean by race picking is you can't say "Well I only play ZvP, PvT and TvZ." No. If you PM me and say you're going to play Zerg on Tau Cross. No matter which race the other guy is, YOU'RE STILL ZERG ON TAU CROSS.
On August 24 2017 15:31 FyRe_DragOn wrote: my race matchups are PvT PvZ ZvP PvR on every map. Is this a problem?
So you don't KNOW what the MU will be until I release the lineups.
So there are 5 maps right? Week 1 Maps are already released.
Set 1 - Tau Cross - 1v1 Set 2 - Fighting Spirit - 1v1 Set 3 - Fortress SE - 2v2 Set 4 - Circuit Breaker - 1v1 ACE - Fighting Spirit - 1v1
HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION
On SUNDAY. THIS SUNDAY. You, DragOn, will PM me a list of who is playing on which map and which race they will be. Faust will do the same thing and PM me HIS list of who is playing on which map and which race they are.
I then PUBLICLY POST the lineups in the official PATL Season 1 thread. THAT IS WHEN you discover WHAT the MU will be.
So EXAMPLE. DragOn PMs me his list and Faust PMs me his list. I then PUBLICLY POST that information.
NaS vs SCC Team A
DragOn P - Tau Cross - Faust Z - 1v1 SuGo T - Fighting Spirit - Sero T - 1v1 Beast/Verbo ZT- Fortress SE - Ty2/Faust TZ - 2v2 Moxie Z - Circuit Breaker - Lumire P - 1v1
Then those players COORDINATE their games (they have a WHOLE week to play!) the WINNER will email me the replays.
So if you DragOn say you want Tau Cross and you tell me Protoss. and Faust plays on that map and also picks Protoss. YOU ARE PLAYING A PvP. Now with the sub system if you want to "fake" being sick or whatever so somebody subs for you that's fine but if I hear you suddenly pop up 5min after the game ready to sub for someone else that shit is going to get shut down REAL hard. Play your games and don't dodge.
On Friday at 12pm PST. That is when entrants will be LOCKED. That is when I'll decide which team is playing which team FIRST. I can't seed the league yet because I know there are still teams out there waiting, for whatever reason, to PM me that they want to play. After this Friday that's when I'll kick this into high gear and start releasing the seed/map schedule and further information on HOW to submit lineups etc.
I read both the most recent post and the edited post above. Im not seeing the connection being me being a racepicker, and then suddenly cheating by subbing some1 else in for another matchup. If I play (PvT PvZ ZvP PvR), I consider that my race, so if I get matched up against a (PvT PvP PvZ PvR) player aka a normal protoss, ill be playing ZvP, and if I have to sub id have a teammate play zerg if I need to sub out, since that is the matchup that weve both been preparing.
No. If you say you're protoss on Tau Cross and then you find out your opponent is also Protoss. The MU is LOCKED to PvP on Tau Cross. YOU CANT RACE PICK. Either Play a ZERG or play a PROTOSS or a TERRAN but not this fucking bullshit of well I want to pick the BEST race. Korean ProLeague has NEVER allowed that. EVER. NEVER.
I simply state my race vs P, race vs T, race vs Z, and race vs R or other racepickers that dont share my any matchup. (PvZ PvT ZvP PvR) The opponent does the same, and then we play whatever matchup that ends up being. You literally dont have to do anything extra, what is the pain in the ass?
Because I don't want to have to remember what everyone's PREFERRED style is. I want to just post the lineups and be done with it. If we get two teams of race pickers then it takes MORE time to nitpick the details and who is playing what and where and how and why. It's a headache as an ADMIN to remember.
Let's say there are 30 race pickers out of the 90 players in this so far. I have to remember which team and which MU and how and who and what. It's extra work that does NOT need to be.
Korean ProLeague does NOT allow it, NEVER allowed it.
Im hearing that you dont want to do extra work, but im not seeing any extra work to be done. Youd still be doing exactly the same thing, the players can read PvT ZvP PvZ PvR and infer what matchup they are playing, youd just have to copy/paste the lineup and be done with it, same as you would if instead of (PvT ZvP PvZ PvR), there was PROTOSS.
If there are 30 racepickers out of the 90 players so far, do you really want to force 1/3 of your players to offrace?
I thought this was an attempt to create a friendly clanleague and grow the competitive scene in the americas, not a tournament run by KESPA. I would think that the goals stated in your OP are best served by allowing players to play the race or matchups they are best at, but I guess you disagree.
I respect your authority on this matter and I wont argue any more, but I hope you will reconsider. I could even help with any extra admin duties derived from people racepicking, whatever those might be.
Wow who cares FyRe_DragOn, either pick a race or don't play, this is a for fun league, it's not all about winning any way possible, you are unbelievably pushy for something that won't happen.
So... no good reason just wants to fuck players that have a history in foreign scene and won tournaments using racepicking just because you dont "feel like it" .Nice mentality already. Speaks a lot for how this league will be run.
On August 24 2017 22:34 BeastJaehoon wrote: So... no good reason just wants to fuck players that have a history in foreign scene and won tournaments using racepicking just because you dont "feel like it" .Nice mentality already. Speaks a lot for how this league will be run.
This is meant to be accessible for all. And yes, this volunteer effort is designed to specifically screw over those that want to chance race depending on map and matchup.
How about, as Psy has stated, that it would simply complicate keeping track of these things. This is going to be a clusterfuck and a whinefest regardless of any additional fuckery with matchups - and by the looks of things a pretty big bullet will be dodged by just showing some authority from the start.
Hey! Brood War in 2017! Fuck this shit, amiright? We're losers for even trying! lolz!
If this was something that was brought up as a concern weeks ago when I first posted this we could have discussed and work something out but trying to have me change something last minute a day before I'm supposed to officially start everything I'm not going to go through with changing things up right now
Honestly, in a world where race picking is allowed, someone could gain a significant advantage by race picking ZvZ, PvP and TvT because those are the least popular and least practiced matchups.
Best to stop discussing race picking altogether though since the verdict has already been delivered.
On August 24 2017 23:41 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: If this was something that was brought up as a concern weeks ago when I first posted this we could have discussed and work something out but trying to have me change something last minute a day before I'm supposed to officially start everything I'm not going to go through with changing things up right now
There is literally nothing to change lol, and the reason I didnt bring it up is because I thought that me playing matchups wouldnt be a problem, like in every other tournament ive played in before.
On August 25 2017 01:05 Radivel-X17 wrote: Race picking also presents this scenario:
Dragon wants to pick his ZvP, but because race picking is allowed, his normally P opponent always race picks T when his opponent goes Z.
Well, now what? Who "wins"?
In other words, just avoid the hassle and play normally. If you don't want to play one particular matchup, practice and get good at it.
Then ive already explained how this works, if we dont share a common matchup then wed both play the race we designated to play against randoms or other racepickers, in this case toss for me. I hope you realize that "play normally" means ZvP PvZ PvT to me, its what ive done for 10+ years
Wow. Just wow.... "Korean ProLeague does NOT allow it, NEVER allowed it" What does Proleague have to do with a small, foreign BW tournament? Making players play with their off-race isn't good for the players, as they have to play a matchup they don't normally play. It's not good for the viewers to have to watch good players use their offrace. Also, no random? Wow... This seemed like an interesting and fun league to play in, but I quickly lost interest after reading the rules and regulations today.
All major foreign tournaments since forever have allowed it. MSL/OSL did allow it, savior racepicked vs gorush and julyzerg racepicked vs chojja. I dont know if blizzcon did, im pretty sure in WCG people were allowed to play whatever race they wanted, as well as TSL, ISL, ASL, TLS. Those last ones are all the major tournaments that were hosted since the release of sc2 in case you are unaware, and ive played and racepicked in all of them. There was never an arbitrary rule preventing racepicking in foreign bw. I dont know how sc2 tournaments did it, but this isnt sc2.
strictly speaking, i don't think savior racepicked vs gorush. he just submitted his race as T and if gorush had wanted to play P for some reason he would've had to play a PvT lol. the julyzerg thing was some weird proleague rule where you weren't allowed to play two races in a row or something like that so julyzerg randomed
Well I cant even do what savior did here, because I wont know my opponent until after ive selected a race. And my point still stands that all major foreign tournaments have allowed it
yea but savior wasn't playing in a team league when he did that. idk what nationscup/iccupcl/etc did for team leagues but did they really have you send lineups without the race of the player in question? seems like if you're trying to do a PL style league, it makes sense that you should be rewarded for strategizing for the maps; if you think you can snipe the other team's toss by playing Z on a map you should submit your race as Z
This isnt about sniping other players, its about being able to play the matchups that ive played for my whole bw "career". Ive played in every team league and nation league since sc2 came out, and they all allowed racepicking. ICCupCL, GambitsCup, SWBINationleague, ICCupNationleague, maybe even others that im forgetting. There was never any issue of racepicking, and plenty of players did it.
I get that this tournament is for fun but I've stated this clearly that it would be following a ProLeague format. This is how I am running it.
Now drop it everyone and start practicing. This is my last post regarding the issue.
I'm pretty sure almost ALL foreign tournaments in the past allowed race-picking. You seem to be confusing Korean tournaments with foreign tournaments of the past.
This seems to be turning into the same thing we saw with HAY/FilthyCup and Scan. If the admin said "this is how it is," and then answered your complaints and then said "this is how it will remain," then the ball is in your court to either play or not play I think? Filthy got so frustrated with the community posting non-stop about Scan that he stopped running his tournaments. Maybe we can learn from that experience and not pester the admins of leagues after they have already heard your complaints and given a response? This is his tournament, he is putting in work and money. This isn't Nation League 2 or whatever, it's something totally separate and run by a different person.
Personally, as Dragon knows with CPL, I don't have a problem with race-picking or switching or whatever. I do understand where you're coming from. And so does he I am sure - but you have to respect his decision about his league.
Ultimately I think this might be for the best. Blizzard is unlikely to implement race picking into ladder, ladder is likely going to be the measuring stick for the future, so this definitely falls in line with that AND latter-day ProLeague, which Psy said is his intent. Try to see the positives. If not, then to play or not to play is still your choice.
race picking is a thing but its also something your allowed to exploit. For example whenever I knew I was vs a race picker I would always random. I cheesed my way through round one of tsl with that shit
The difference is that in these cases, as briefly mentioned before, is
a) they knew their opponent ahead of time and thus he didn't "racepick" in the sense of a blanket "I always TvZ" but he submitted it like "I know I am facing GoRush, so I am submitting T for this match." Both parties got adequate notice of this fact and I don't think it's comparable because Savior submitting ONE race for a pre-determined match doesn't have much bearing on this format.
b) there was some weird rule (according to someone else in the thread) that you couldn't send two of the same race back to back, or something. Also not applicable.
It should be noted that in latter-day ProLeague, after the matchfixing scandal, there was not a single race-pick in non-event games. This is because line-ups were kept hidden, just as they are in this case.
Can we stop talking about this now? T_T I really don't want to see a repeat of what I mentioned earlier...
The purpose of THAT thread is to keep discussion THERE focused PURELY on smack talk, matches, finding play times, etc. That is also where I'll post lineups and results.
This thread will remain to discuss the league in general and where people can bring their questions for me to answer.
You know I also want to take this moment to thank someone that is not part of our community anymore but is the person that taught me HOW to run tournaments, even if it does not make you popular at times. I watched him run many, many tournaments over the years and if I hadn't, I don't think I would have the heart to attempt this.
Duran "Xeris" Parsi. Thank you.
This guy. This guy has done SO much for the American scene between 2002 and 2014 and it's really sad that there isn't a Liquipedia page on him. He has run SO many tournaments big (NASL) and small (Yankee League).
He used to run weekly, monthly, yearly tournaments ALL the time and I have no idea how he did it. He was considered by MANY players the best Admin to run any tournament, he was often consulted by WCG on how to run the USA tournaments.
He also took a chance on me to cast Yankee League when it first started, arguably him giving me that opportunity lead me to being noticed more and more around the community as a caster. I worked hard to promote myself but I will admit. If Xeris never took the chance on me, I do not think I would have ever gained the popularity that I did that allowed me to participate in the casting crew for THREE WCGs in a row.
Xeris. I deticate this League to you. Wherever you are.
Xeris <3. Super excited for this. If I have the extra funds I'll def throw in some $$$, to up the winnings. This is just another step forward for brood war and the community. Thanks psyonic for making this possible!!!
I will begin seeding teams. Keep an eye on the PATL Season 1 thread for week 1 matches.
Edit: week 1 matches are posted. I've also updated the OP and moved/removed unnecessary information. Check the PATL Season 1 thread for more intimate details pertaining to Season 1. That keeps this thread more in line with how PATL should run OVERALL.
Random is not allowed in 2v2. I know ProLeague DID technically allow it but I feel it's not fair to ban it for 1v1 and leave it open for 2v2.
BUT
I am open to discussion. If people really feel having 1 Random on each team in 2v2 is fine. I'm okay doing that. (I'll only allow 1 random per team in 2v2s) For week 1 and week 2 Random shall be banned. I will make a decision BEFORE Sept 8th about allowing Randon for 2v2s by Week 3. The poll will decide.
Random was allowed but this is largely a consequence of ZZ not being allowed in 2s because of imba. If ZZ is allowed then 2v2 should follow the same rules as 1v1 imo. It's because you said you wanted to follow ProLeague format that I ask this, and I know many people out there main in 1v1 but random in 2v2, so I felt it should be asked at least.
I wanted to take the time to announce, and I'll add this to the OP, that I'm in the process of securing additional funding to do an Individual Tournament. With a twist.
The top 16 players of PATL will be automatically invited into, what I'm going to call the Pan-American StarLeague. So the top 16 players that score the MOST points for their teams will be invited. (Obviously that means the players that win the most)
There will be another invite before PASL that would be an OPEN tournament for anyone to join and the top 16 finishers of that event would be seeded into the PASL for a total of 32 players.
This is being scheduled AFTER the New Year, during PATL's off-season. I just wanted to keep you guys in the loop. I just wanted to post it here for visibility.
I've also created a DISCORD for PATL to help Team Leaders AND Players coordinate to play their games. Discord is FREE to use on your web browser or you can download the APP on your PC or Phone. https://discord.gg/pyRjjkt
One player may ONLY play up to possible THREE games per week. So that means 2 - 1v1's or 1 - 1v1 and 1 - 2v2 and then the ACE match if the match series gets to the ACE.
I get that this tournament is for fun but I've stated this clearly that it would be following a ProLeague format. This is how I am running it.
Now drop it everyone and start practicing. This is my last post regarding the issue.
I've played in blizzcon and WCG. in WCG I randomed 4 games race picked tvz 1. in blizzcon I race picked zvt once and went random in the second game of the same series. the other nonkorean tournaments have never been a thing in BW, although race picking is certainly allowed in current ESL tourneys. (I just played one of those also, picked zvp first then pvz after). People have been race picking for 19 years, and it has _never_ been a problem. Never. I have played in more different tournaments than 99.9% of the foreign bw scene, and I have literally 0 times experienced a problem like 'we can't find overlapping matchups'. It's not an issue, but being told that we can't race pick ruins the entire experience for race pickers. And while it has indeed not been popular in Korea, it's been incredibly popular outside korea, I looked at the top 20 players on iccup, and 10 of them were race pickers.
On September 17 2017 00:47 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: I'm making a few changes about subbing.
One player may ONLY play up to possible THREE games per week. So that means 2 - 1v1's or 1 - 1v1 and 1 - 2v2 and then the ACE match if the match series gets to the ACE.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6pqhNL4.png)
Me personally, I prefer Bo1 for teamleagues. 
I'm thinking of signing TRUE since he lives in Virginia :D
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