EPTThe Coach Pupil League (CPL) - Page 2
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
Eddy has similarities to Jade, but is better. Kiseyras is eonzergs new favourite map. On June 13 2016 16:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Guess my new favorite map :p CAS is new. Kiseyras is pretty new. Eddy is not as brand new (its in the iccup mappack) but should be used in more tournaments. Whenever Jade is being used I am inclined to bring up Eddy. eonzerg playing on Kiseyras teamliquid thread for Kiseyras: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/509940-map-4kiseyras teamliquid thread for CAS with youtube showmatches and eonzerg playtest video: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516840-map-4crown-and-sceptre-1v1 Do check out the casted youtube showmatches by FlashFTW and by Sayle in the above link. They are in the OP. From my point of view, CAS is my best map so Id prefer if someone wanted to use one of my maps to pick that one. The logical thing is to use it instead of FS as they are so similar. I mean, you can even do the same factory wall in at bottom right main for example. As this tournament is already planning to use FS, it seems a perfect chance. Same with Jade to Eddy. Queensbridge to Kiseyras, well thats simply switching 1 foreign for 1 foreign! (could switch Overwatch to New Sniper Ridge if for some arbitrary reason there had to be another Korean map. Or just dont do all of my suggestions, choose at your leisure)  | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
New players won't have any pro-game examples to copy building placement, scouting patterns, expansion patterns, etc. This comment is interesting. I could answer in so many different ways. 1. Take pride in your own scene! 2. The maps Im suggesting are very standard in many ways, so you can easily transfer knowledge across. 3. If you cant directly copy, then you will have to strategise and formulate a gameplan! This is fun. This also teaches players who are learning a lot of important things. As this is the coach pupil league it almost seems More appropriate in some ways. 4. Coaches may enjoy having the opportunity to create their own sneaky game plans and feed them to their team. Especially on a map like Kiseyras. Having new maps allows space for freedom and creativity. Basically you can argue things both ways I guess. The end fact is these are some good quality maps. More tournaments should use them. As you play them more, you will gain confidence on them, and then you might even Want to play them even more and it snowballs. Coach pupil league and other newer player leagues are the perfect breeding ground for foreign maps. You practice a map with your team mate etc, gaining a sense of ownership. Like I mentioned; Take pride in your own scene. | ||
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evilEye_
United States91 Posts
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Jealous
10077 Posts
On March 02 2017 19:27 HaFnium wrote: Re: Map pool. <Circuit Breaker> <Demian> <Destination> <Fighting Spirit> <Jade> <Overwatch> (2 Player) <Queensbridge> I think there are too many 2 player maps (Destination/Queensbridge/Overwatch).... We have discussed the structure of the league recently, and I believe that we have reached a consensus about the amount of times a map will be played that allows for a fairly even split of the amount of games played per map type. I'm sorry that I can't be more specific because I am not the main organizer and things are not set in stone as of now, but please rest assured that the amount of games played on 2 player maps will not be an overwhelming issue for the league. On March 02 2017 21:20 Jukado wrote: Hi, thankyou for using foreign maps! If it were me, Id be tempted to maybe: Switch Fighting Spirit for Crown And Sceptre. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4849 Switch Jade for Eddy. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4674 Switch Queensbridge for Kiseyras. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4805 The point of this league is to help the participants improve; I believe that playing on maps that are familiar to them and that they will encounter most frequently in competitive play (ladder) is of top priority. As I mentioned above, there was a lengthy discussion held about balancing the map pool. The main things we tangled with and tried to keep in mind: 1. Using standard maps that people would commonly encounter. I mentioned this above. 2. Having good maps. Demian was chosen over Tau Cross, Longinus, and Aztec because I made the argument that it is a very good map and seems to play out to be more balanced than the above; also has the benefit of being recently used in ASL. This is also the reason why Python wasn't considered at all, despite still being very popular. 3. Having a good balance of 4/3/2 player maps for the teamleague. Although there is only one 3 player map, with the current system that lazersnipe has in mind, this will not be an imbalanced distribution; again, as mentioned above, it is hard for me to explain without going into details that may change, but the amount of games played on 4/3/2 player maps should be pretty representative of the ladder experience. 4. Having a decent diversity of map styles. This was the reason why Jade was kept in the map pool and Latin Quarter was taken out. We felt that Latin Quarter didn't bring that much diversity to the table after FS + CB were already included, which we found to be of highest priority as per #1 above. Jade was kept in because of the low-ground main. #3 falls under this as well, this is more like a #3.b. if I think about it. 5. Using foreign maps. This was the penultimate priority after looking at all of the other criteria. There was talk of not including any foreign maps at all, because of #1 and the overall purpose of this league that I mentioned earlier. However, lazersnipe and others involved in the process (myself included, to a lesser degree) feel that foreign tournaments should include foreign maps as well; we are all from one community, and thus we kept Queensbridge and Overwatch, both of which satisfy #2, 3, and 4. However, replacing all of the maps you suggest would again contradict our overall purpose and #1. 6. Keeping maps that were used in the league up until this point, from the CPL Ranking Tour/DRIT 10. This was of least priority because we were actually looking for ways to diversify the map pool while keeping all of the above criteria in mind, but it simply makes sense from a continuity and therefore improvement standpoint as per the league's purpose. I want to note that I am not speaking on behalf of lazersnipe here; this is just my own interpretation of the discussion we had concerning the map pool. As we approach the actual teamleague phase, we will be having more discussions about the format of the league. We already have some decent ideas in that regard, and we made this map pool with them in mind. There will be more updates in the future (although not any time soon, as the practice phase is quite long) that will provide a much more concrete outline. At that time, I think that you will see how the map pool and the format work together nicely. On March 03 2017 02:27 Jukado wrote: Coach pupil league and other newer player leagues are the perfect breeding ground for foreign maps. You practice a map with your team mate etc, gaining a sense of ownership. Like I mentioned; Take pride in your own scene. I saw this after I had already posted the above, but I think I addressed why some of us don't feel inclined to agree with you on your first point, specifically for this league. To expound upon this, map irregularities and unconventional maps are more difficult for lower level players to work with, because of the things that f10eqq mentioned as well as the fact that they are either 1. newer to the scene so they are less flexible in how they approach new maps/playstyles or 2. don't play/haven't played enough games in general to justify subdividing their attention away from the commonly played Korean maps that they are more likely to encounter as a part of their experience. I hope that you understand that we did put in the effort to represent foreign map makers here. I did watch the C&S VODs recently, and I did bring it up to discussion when we were considering the map pool. However, as I mentioned above, it did not provide as much diversity as Jade does to our 4 player map pool, and we unanimously feel that FS/CB's presence in the map pool was non-negotiable. I also would like to point out that if you want to promote your maps/foreign maps more, I would suggest that you run your own tournament, perhaps with incentives. I understand that you as a map maker would like to see your work gain exposure and traction, and while your contributions are noteworthy, I don't think it's appropriate to have arguments about foreign vs. Korean maps in unrelated threads as consistently as I've seen from you. Please don't take this the wrong way; I just think that this is not the best place for this discussion. A PM to the organizer(s) would probably be more appropriate and less of a self-advertisement. | ||
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Jealous
10077 Posts
** THE FIRST TEAM SHOWMATCH WILL BE CAST ON Saturday, Mar 04 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) ** >> http://www.twitch.tv/TrappedInC << This will be the first installment of Team Showmatch, wherein we asked teams to select two players for an exhibition showmatch. The format is as follows: 1. Use the maps that were available in CPL/DRIT (this will be updated to reflect the new map pool in the near future) 2. Both players strike 1 map from the pool. 3. Use random.org to generate the game order. 4. Bo5, all games played. 5. Get casted on stream! This week's match is between two of the stronger players on team: f10eQQ  vs.  QikzMap Order: f10eQQ <Overwatch> Qikz f10eQQ <Circuit Breaker> Qikz f10eQQ <Fighting Spirit> Qikz f10eQQ <Destination> Qikz f10eQQ <Jade> Qikz Your casters for this event will be the Dynamic Duo of Jealous@TL and Fazers@TL, now with improved sound quality because we will be doing it over Discord and not over each other's shoulders lol. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
My original short post was just some personal suggestions about the map pool. Demurity then said "I have no idea what those foreign maps are lol" so I replied to him. The fact that he doesnt know the maps signifies I dont do enough unfortunately. So my posts were specifically replying to the individuals Demurity and then f10eqq. They post, I reply. The map pool has just been announced so its a normal discussion to have. Normally I PM tour organisers about some of the latest maps just to make sure they are atleast aware of the options (and I dont post publicly). This is because I have my finger on the pulse when it comes to maps and strats. That I made some of them is very much secondary to me. Several tour organisers have asked me to post my PM publicly in their threads though so that other people can see whats going on and to bump their thread so it gets attention. So now you know the order of events. Indeed the tour you just finished that was started by L_Master was all done by PM on my part. Im actually a very quiet poster as can be seen in my first post in this thread. Indeed you can see I was suggesting to remove one of my own maps to put in Kiseyras, and to remove a foreign map to put in a Korean one. So I like to think that Im fairly impartial in reality, and the reason Im passionate about map pools is because they have such a big influence on the quality of a tour in my opinion. I would like to make one quick point though: Jealous, you wrote: ...subdividing their attention away from the commonly played Korean maps that they are more likely to encounter as a part of their experience. Its a totally valid point. As I said to f10eqq earlier the argument can go both ways though. Basically if every tournament organiser agreed that Plasma would be the only map used in all tours for 2017, then obviously a lot more practice games would get played on it in preparation. So people would be more likely to encounter it! My point was that newer players will play whatever is popular and encouraged by the veterans (simplifying here but I think you get the idea). Tour organisers actually have a large influence (dare I say responsibility) for shaping the future in the long run (not to make it a burden or anything, just saying this is a reality that is not necessarily considered much in general). But to be crystal clear I think you guys here in this tour are doing a great job already! Please understand that. I made 3 personal suggestions as the map pool has just been announced so its on topic. You have given good reasons for the thought process behind the map pool and its all good. So hopefully Ive helped explain stuff. I like brood war, I love to see it moving forward the way it currently is. Maps play a part in that and as a fan of brood war first and foremost, and as someone with an amount of experience, Im essentially the right person in the right place so Im almost self elected to act as an instrument of progression. Ofcourse in any system (the BW community in this case) there are different elements that interact. The more conservative elements mix with the more progressive, and the voice of reason pipes up too, then a balance is found. Just like how a new build order gets polished and perfected over time. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
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Jealous
10077 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/trappedinc | ||
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Jealous
10077 Posts
1. Use the map pool from the league: <Circuit Breaker> <Demian> <Destination> <Fighting Spirit> <Jade> <Overwatch> (2 Player) <Queensbridge> 2. Each player vetoes 1 map. 3. Place each map in random.org and generate a random order for the Bo5. 4. Play every match, even if someone wins 3-0. 5. Send the replays to your coach, who will forward them to me. Name the replays "Game 1," "Game 2," etc. 6. Get your games casted! If you want to watch the games before they go up on YouTube tomorrow, you can see the VOD here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/126200271 Results are: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lVXjsQY.png) | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
Stardom, no idea if you even read TL anymore, but this is directed at you. + Show Spoiler + I played super defensive against f10 in the final game, because honestly I've lost too many games to him with him randomly pulling a bunch of dts out of his ass and me having no scans. I also had no idea really how many bases he had until just after I started pushing. I scanned his nat, but he could've had hidden bases, he's done that in practice. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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LightningStrike
United States14276 Posts
On March 04 2017 20:34 Qikz wrote: Thanks to the people who watched me and f10eqq play and thanks for all the tips. Stardom, no idea if you even read TL anymore, but this is directed at you. + Show Spoiler + I played super defensive against f10 in the final game, because honestly I've lost too many games to him with him randomly pulling a bunch of dts out of his ass and me having no scans. I also had no idea really how many bases he had until just after I started pushing. I scanned his nat, but he could've had hidden bases, he's done that in practice. + Show Spoiler + Even if he had dt's as long you got scans you could kill the dts as they are very weak compared to zealots and dragoons although your academy was a little late. Also if you are afraid of hidden bases I think sending 1-2 vultures scouting out the map until you got scans can help you scout hidden bases and if you saw he doesn't then mining them up so he can't place a nexus there is still good enough. | ||
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Fazers
734 Posts
On March 04 2017 20:34 Qikz wrote: Thanks to the people who watched me and f10eqq play and thanks for all the tips. Stardom, no idea if you even read TL anymore, but this is directed at you. + Show Spoiler + I played super defensive against f10 in the final game, because honestly I've lost too many games to him with him randomly pulling a bunch of dts out of his ass and me having no scans. I also had no idea really how many bases he had until just after I started pushing. I scanned his nat, but he could've had hidden bases, he's done that in practice. Both you and F10EQQ put on a great show match! | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Jealous
10077 Posts
On March 04 2017 21:06 SCC-Faust wrote: I think that showmatch set the bar really high. Was close and entertaining games. On March 05 2017 01:37 Fazers wrote: Both you and F10EQQ put on a great show match! Agreed! On March 05 2017 01:52 f10eqq wrote: Can I challenge Stardom to a grudge match? Ez 3-0 Kappa I have no objections You know what to do. | ||
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
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LightningStrike
United States14276 Posts
On March 05 2017 01:52 f10eqq wrote: Can I challenge Stardom to a grudge match? Ez 3-0 Kappa bring it on: | ||
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Jealous
10077 Posts
On March 05 2017 04:06 halomonian wrote: Where are my coaches? lol i need a shakedown session, i havent touched this game in about a month and i was pretty rubbish before that I've contacted your coaches personally Hopefully they will reach out to you soon. If not, please PM me, and I will deal with them accordingly. I know where one of them lives, actually. EDIT: Fazers: "this guy i fucking pm'ed him twice to join discord.." Please make sure you download and use Discord to stay in contact with your team and coaches! That is the best way to stay connected in many gaming communities nowadays. Thanks! | ||
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
On March 05 2017 08:43 Jealous wrote: I've contacted your coaches personally Hopefully they will reach out to you soon. If not, please PM me, and I will deal with them accordingly. I know where one of them lives, actually. EDIT: Fazers: "this guy i fucking pm'ed him twice to join discord.." Please make sure you download and use Discord to stay in contact with your team and coaches! That is the best way to stay connected in many gaming communities nowadays. Thanks! Just got the first PM, he may have mis-spelled my username :p | ||
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