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On February 14 2007 05:49 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2007 05:45 Orome wrote:On February 14 2007 05:42 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 14 2007 05:38 Orome wrote:On February 14 2007 05:35 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 14 2007 05:33 Orome wrote:On February 14 2007 05:29 CTStalker wrote:
Agreed with GI's post, also, it's absurd to say that one player was lucky to draw a particular map in a mirror matchup. The implied advantage here stems not from luck, but from skill if this map played such a decisive role. If Federer played Nadal on a randomly chosen surface, would Nadal not be lucky if sand was the picked one? It's clay, not sand; moreover, Federer and Nadal's styles are so different that it is as if they are playing different Starcraft races. Casy and NaDa's styles differ in very small aspects; overall, they still build tanks and goliaths and vultures. Federer and Nadal is like the difference between GoRush and Boxer - two completely different players that the map/surface affects in two different ways. The analogy might hold if you asked what would it be like if Nadal played Moya on clay or grass; but in that situation, it is still much more the player than the surface. Casy's and Nada's styles differ a lot. If you don't realize that, I don't think you can talk. Aren't you the one who's never watched a live game or vod? Is this just intended to be a personal attack on me? I watched today's games, and was under the impression we were talking about whose TvT was better today as opposed to historically. And honestly, you think the difference between casy and nada is comparable to the difference between federer and nadal? Not quite as big, but big enough for Arkanoid twice to favour Nada. The hallmark of a good player is being able to adapt in the face of pressure. Moreover, only NaDa's game 5 victory is directly attributable to the map. Casy went 2-2 otherwise, so it's hard to argue that adjusting for Arkanoid results in Casy playing better TvT than NaDa.
Be careful, dude. You're probably making a personal attack on this kid. Let's try not to hurt his feelings. 
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On February 14 2007 05:49 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2007 05:45 Orome wrote:On February 14 2007 05:42 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 14 2007 05:38 Orome wrote:On February 14 2007 05:35 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 14 2007 05:33 Orome wrote:On February 14 2007 05:29 CTStalker wrote:
Agreed with GI's post, also, it's absurd to say that one player was lucky to draw a particular map in a mirror matchup. The implied advantage here stems not from luck, but from skill if this map played such a decisive role. If Federer played Nadal on a randomly chosen surface, would Nadal not be lucky if sand was the picked one? It's clay, not sand; moreover, Federer and Nadal's styles are so different that it is as if they are playing different Starcraft races. Casy and NaDa's styles differ in very small aspects; overall, they still build tanks and goliaths and vultures. Federer and Nadal is like the difference between GoRush and Boxer - two completely different players that the map/surface affects in two different ways. The analogy might hold if you asked what would it be like if Nadal played Moya on clay or grass; but in that situation, it is still much more the player than the surface. Casy's and Nada's styles differ a lot. If you don't realize that, I don't think you can talk. Aren't you the one who's never watched a live game or vod? Is this just intended to be a personal attack on me? I watched today's games, and was under the impression we were talking about whose TvT was better today as opposed to historically. And honestly, you think the difference between casy and nada is comparable to the difference between federer and nadal? Not quite as big, but big enough for Arkanoid twice to favour Nada. The hallmark of a good player is being able to adapt in the face of pressure. Moreover, only NaDa's game 5 victory is directly attributable to the map. Casy went 2-2 otherwise, so it's hard to argue that adjusting for Arkanoid results in Casy playing better TvT than NaDa.
To be honest, I'm not sure what you mean. How about we just drop it?
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Lets just drop it and accept the truth :
Nada won this series
We dont know who is the better TvT player but this day NaDa came out on top
Everything else is objetivity and has nothing to do with the truth and is everyones own bias. If you liked Casys play better its your very own right and now one can disagree but u can never say Casy was better or NaDa didnt deserve it.
U cant say NaDas strategic skills are worse, because thats just not true and we cant really know.
I dont want to start things up again, but Orome there are still those two statements of you which i asked u to explain to me.. u didnt, but instead u posted some funny phrase..
Quite funny again, after reminding me of your ''emotion phil'' / '' cant discuss properly'' stuff
: )
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 14 2007 05:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2007 05:16 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On February 14 2007 05:14 Orome wrote:
If Nada plays a respectable series against Savior, he's definitely #2.
Stop being bitter and twisting things. Art Out of your mouth the sentence : Stop being bitter and twisting things. Im really laughing my ass of right now. The guy who says Casy was better, NaDa was lucky, Casy deserved to win. Casy understand TvT better than Nada, THe guy who said Nadas strategic skills are bad compared to casys, the guy who basicaly cant accept NaDa > Casy in this series and almost pretends as if Casy won the series says this sentence. This is pure sarcasm i guess.. ^^ ....Casy IS better at TvT this was a great series but he's pretty much right, Nada got build order lucky on Arkanoid in game 1, outmicrod Casy in game 2 with a surprise attack. Game 3, Casy made the most of a dire situation and pulled out a win through overall superior play. Game 4, Casy absolutely destroyed Nada in every sense of the word. Game 5 was a close battle, but Casy is not as good at expo timing on Arkanoid as Nada is. It's completely fair to say that Nada's win was made easier by having Arkanoid twice, and its completely fair to say Casy's TvT is better, because it is. Both players played exceedingly well in this series, but that doesn't make certain truths untrue.
you see "build order lucky" and i see decisiveness in predicting what his opponent will do. even if nada didn't go to the right spot right away, he had 1 scan and going to the second spot would've still killed casy. it's not luck, its a champion who takes calculated risks and anticipates well.
my point is this: many see casy's game 4 win as more "impressive" than let's say nada's game 2, but when you break it down:
Game 2: 1 absolutely decisive and crucial early game decision/execution by nada
Game 4: 50 little mid/late game correct decisions and executions by casy
now its just a viewpoint, some people would see game 4 as more "impressive" than game 2, maybe even see casy as the better TvT player with a better understanding of the matchup, but what i see is someone (nada) who made one correct important decision/execution when it mattered and someone else (casy) who was unable to under pressure (in game 2).
i see both those games as equal in demonstrating which player was better, and that's why i don't understand why some people are all freaking out about casy's game 4 but conveniently forget that he made his fast expo cc right in front of fucking nada's scouting scv in game 2 which basically allowed nada to rush him. game 2 was the less flashy, easy, nada-style decision and win, but i don't see how it should be held in any less esteem. these games really show how the different styles of the two players can be interpreted and how you as a viewer have your own personal scale of judging "better."
when you boil starcraft down its just a giant string of tiny decisions, micro executions, etc, and what does it matter if casy made 6000 awesome moves in game 4 when they are all nullified by 1 great move by nada in game 2? they both led to victory and one player's way should not be viewed as inferior.
that is why i think nada was the superior player in this series. casy can be 10x the strategist or have 10x the understanding of TvT than Nada does (i don't think this is the case) but if he fucks up early game like he did in game 2 or has inferior macro or expansion timing in game 5, nobody cares because it was a losing effort by him.
impressive in a losing effort (in a mirror matchup) is just that: impressive, but inferior.
edit: and to all those saying "omg nada got arkanoid twice imba" that's just ridiculous, nada is better at multitasking on a map like that, just because casy isn't good at it doesn't make nada "lucky" it just makes casy inferior
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and now after these wise words we all SJLIG
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FOR ALL WHO DID NOT SEE THE GAMES, THE GAMES ARE CURRENTLY ON OGN STREAM! (VODS)
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
Just read what those Casy fanboys use to describe Casy:
"brilliant, fantastic, unbelieveble, godly, the best" etc.
And NaDa is only:
"lucky, good microer, solid" etc.
And when you bringing Federer vs Nadal analogy it is clear that FEDERER=NADA and Casy is Nadal because NaDa has achieved in SC what Federer in tennis.
NaDa=3 OSL, numerous KPGA and MSL titles, KT-KTF champ and Casy who has 1 OSL title
WHO IS FUCKING FEDERER HERE?
Casy was never good TvTer while NaDa was the best TvTer long before Casy went professional (NaDa beat BoxeR constantly and Casy is just BoxeR's copycat - hell, he even looks like Boxer)
Orome, I really don't understand why your name is in blue. You are below average tl.net member judging by how you act in this thread
NaDa is clearly better player than Casy and today he proved it
NaDa = pocket Aces and Casy = pocket Jacks
GG
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I think is just plain stupid to say that Nada won thanks to Arkanoid being played twice. So what if Arkanoid is the defensive map (I'm not saing it is). We all saw Nada's play on Arkanoid against Sea.Up where HE was the aggressive one. Nada can be defensive or aggressive, depending on the map. It's not like Casy said to himself "Ok, it's better to play defensive on Arkanoid, and just expand, but that's not my style. I'm just going to play like i play on any other map, and lose." Casy knows the map as good as Nada and he still choosed to play aggresivly and lost.
If Casy played on an island map aginst Nada, would he be making vultures and reaserching mines, and then say at the end, when he lost, that it was due to the fact that his style is not good for that map. I mean, come on people.
p.s.
I think Nada could have won on RLT.
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IF I may add something, tho it is subjective opinion. I really have to say what is on my mind
About game 4.
You all talk how Casy outclassed NaDa, but this game is also BO win. Yes, Casy dominated that match, sure. But NaDa was fucked after Casy`s first vulture attack, where NaDa had to defend with scv`s. NaDa was clearly very behind from that point of game, especially after initial wraith attack, which hurt his eco big time. With no damaged eco, and while taking map it wasn`t really that hard for Casy to win that game. Even tho NaDa was is such a bad position, he was able to defend quite well against Casy`s superior army multiple times. He just couldn`t handle Casy`s big eco.
Overall I am more impressed with NaDa. The series could have finished 3-0 in his favor anyways.
Not taking away anything from Casy here. He played great, but NaDa was better today. You have to admit that.
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I prefer the system where in the last game every player is removing one of the maps and then a lot decides the last map from the 2 left
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ilovecats
United States265 Posts
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thanks NaDa im studying happy today :D. Very goods games and it could be 3:0.
Since i know about PROs NaDa is the one who can make a good games with new-old school gamers,others like yellow, the marine, boxer, chojja etc were simply losing their opportunities
for the win  (sorry, im studying english recently)
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I think Nada definitely played better overall, and especially in game 5. Finding a way to deflect the pressure on his northern expo while simultaneously taking more exps along the left side of the map AND denying Casy an exp along the right was quite impressive from Nada.
After almost being a blowout, the series turned out quite nicely. Voted Casy but props to Nada and GL vs. Savior in the finals (Iris, lol).
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Damn, i hate so much Nada i cheered for Casy today and he lost.
Too many Nada fanboys here, he should have lost in group stages (a bit like Casy last year) and now, unless Iris qualifies, he almost won this OSL (Savior has very little chance considering the maps).
Nada makes OSL boring
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Braavos36402 Posts
"savior has very little chance"
yeah ok
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Well, yeah he was lucky against Midas, let's admit it. RLT and Longinus are really hurting him. On HH and Arkanoid, i'll put him over Nada. But this is definitely hard. And Osl history proves it too much, zergs stands almost no chances against terrans in those kind of situation.
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On February 14 2007 07:29 Wasabi wrote:
gah, nada just can't stop winning. As I've said before I like Nada, but stilll I would've opted for a Casy vs. Savior finals.
P/S: The concept of gaming history DO NOT work on Savior.
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I think the games showed Nada and Casy are very close in skill.
It's certainly a bit rich to say Casy is better...
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EPT
