Good test for Sea in an offline league... If he can play even as moderately well as he does online, this group should be pretty straight forward... TvZ against hero on FS is just not fair :/
On November 16 2015 20:42 feckless wrote: How the hell did this guy get into the tournament? No offense. I mean, this guy is outclassed twice in a row. Outstandingly outclassed.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
It only makes sense if the zerg is short on gas though. If you have 4-5 or more gas as zerg it doesn't matter anymore. The gas costs to kill a battle cruiser with scourges are the same costs as for the battle cruiser. Honestly, the gas hero invested into scourges would have amounted in about 3 ultras, that's not a lot...
I think the more important fact about this game was that Sea built a massive amount of firebats when hero was short on gas.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
It only makes sense if the zerg is short on gas though. If you have 4-5 or more gas as zerg it doesn't matter anymore. The gas costs to kill a battle cruiser with scourges are the same costs as for the battle cruiser. Honestly, the gas hero invested into scourges would have amounted in about 3 ultras, that's not a lot...
I think the more important fact about this game was that Sea built a massive amount of firebats when hero was short on gas.
I know the 6 is a small base land wise, but would spores be possible considering the high amount of minerals hero had?
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
It only makes sense if the zerg is short on gas though. If you have 4-5 or more gas as zerg it doesn't matter anymore. The gas costs to kill a battle cruiser with scourges are the same costs as for the battle cruiser. Honestly, the gas hero invested into scourges would have amounted in about 3 ultras, that's not a lot...
I think the more important fact about this game was that Sea built a massive amount of firebats when hero was short on gas.
Define "more important". It's certainly easy to use firebats to help secure a victory. But I don't think they were the turning point. There's a reason hero was basically forced into spawning zerglings only, without much variation in units. There's a reason, then, that the firebats helped so much.
I think the BCs were a turning point, because up until then the bio play was doing damage, but wasn't working completely. hero had lost 6:00, rebuilt, and then held. Then he lost it to BCs. And then soon after he lost 12:00, too. His aggressiveness lost its momentum, and starved on gas, was basically inclined to build mostly zerglings. By both denying hero a fourth gas and then forcing him to spend necessary gas on scourges, Sea ensured the presence of less ultralisks/defilers/lurkers. Which meant more zerglings. Which meant that firebats looked like hot shit.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
It only makes sense if the zerg is short on gas though. If you have 4-5 or more gas as zerg it doesn't matter anymore. The gas costs to kill a battle cruiser with scourges are the same costs as for the battle cruiser. Honestly, the gas hero invested into scourges would have amounted in about 3 ultras, that's not a lot...
I think the more important fact about this game was that Sea built a massive amount of firebats when hero was short on gas.
I know the 6 is a small base land wise, but would spores be possible considering the high amount of minerals hero had?
Spores would be possible, but how viable they are is another story. Especially considering that Sea had parked a sieged tank on the other side of the wall.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
It only makes sense if the zerg is short on gas though. If you have 4-5 or more gas as zerg it doesn't matter anymore. The gas costs to kill a battle cruiser with scourges are the same costs as for the battle cruiser. Honestly, the gas hero invested into scourges would have amounted in about 3 ultras, that's not a lot...
I think the more important fact about this game was that Sea built a massive amount of firebats when hero was short on gas.
I know the 6 is a small base land wise, but would spores be possible considering the high amount of minerals hero had?
I don't have any experience with this but I don't think it would have been a good idea. First of siege tanks are able to siege a big area of the 6 so that shrinks the area to build spores by a lot. He had 2 Battlecruisers and you need 3-4 spores firing simultaniously at them to win. I don't think it's possible to build so many spore there. And even if, the battlecruisers only have one range less than spores so you can always approach from one side and kill off the spores. That's not even including yamatos. And I honestly don't know if hero really had that much minerals. I assume he had just not enough gas but an appropiate amount of minerals.
@feckless: Sorry, I'll come to you later, I'm running out of time.
On November 16 2015 21:23 ddengster wrote: how did sea go cattlebruisers and win that lol
Players fight over gas expansions. hero was running out of gas. SK is relatively cheap per unit. Build a few BCs. Force Zerg to spawn scourges. Less gas for units like ultralisk or defiler. That's why hero was throwing zerglings all over the map. But if Zerg doesn't get scourge, you rape with BCs.
I see. it makes sense. I thought BCs were completely idiotic when I saw them.
It only makes sense if the zerg is short on gas though. If you have 4-5 or more gas as zerg it doesn't matter anymore. The gas costs to kill a battle cruiser with scourges are the same costs as for the battle cruiser. Honestly, the gas hero invested into scourges would have amounted in about 3 ultras, that's not a lot...
I think the more important fact about this game was that Sea built a massive amount of firebats when hero was short on gas.
Define "more important". It's certainly easy to use firebats to help secure a victory. But I don't think they were the turning point. There's a reason hero was basically forced into spawning zerglings only, without much variation in units. There's a reason, then, that the firebats helped so much.
I think the BCs were a turning point, because up until then the bio play was doing damage, but wasn't working completely. hero had lost 6:00, rebuilt, and then held. Then he lost it to BCs. And then soon after he lost 12:00, too. His aggressiveness lost its momentum, and starved on gas, was basically inclined to build mostly zerglings. By both denying hero a fourth gas and then forcing him to spend necessary gas on scourges, Sea ensured the presence of less ultralisks/defilers/lurkers. Which meant more zerglings. Which meant that firebats looked like hot shit.
The reason why he was forced into mass zerglings was not because he lost his 6 to battle cruisers. It was because, although he had both, the 6 and the 12 at some point in the game, they never were really up and running at any point in time. He was basically on 3 gas the entire game and you can't support ultras and defilers off of 3 gas - at least not continuously. On 3 gas you are basically playing the stalling game with lurkers, lings and defilers + scourges to snipe vessels, which worked extra-ordinarily well for hero this game. You do this until you get a fourth gas up and running while teching upgrades/to ultras. Now that never happened and hero tried to support defilers and ultras off of 3 gas and that didn't work out.
As for the scourges built to kill the battlecruisers: He had to build them either way. If there weren't battlecruisers there would be vessels instead that he needed to snipe. The few scourges for the battlecruiseres weren't a huge factor here, especially when you note that a zerg usually has to build a lot more of them to kill of the science vessels because a lot of scourges will usually be marine fodder. Hero didn't need to build many here because Sea actually handed his vessels over "for free".
Also, the first time the battle cruisers actually killed the 6 was at a time where the game was already at the changing point. It was a hit in the right time because it stopped hero for the last time to get his hands on a fourth gas but every unit of that cost (let it be 2 dropships with M&M) could have sniped that undefended 6, really.
Really interesting the discussions about resource constraints with regards to scourge, BCs, etc. What would have made things much more interesting and informative to the viewers would be visible resource/unit counts, but alas, Afreeca/the organizers have failed us...
I noticed the VNSL games are set up with Observer maps with Use Map Settings mode, so it's unfortunate we can't see such valuable info when the observer clicks around. In virtually all online leagues (recent example), the resource/unit count switches to the player when his unit is clicked on, so I'm not sure what setting (or map?) is disabling this feature for the VNSL, but alas, it stinks
On November 17 2015 08:33 prech wrote: Thanks for all the updates.
Really interesting the discussions about resource constraints with regards to scourge, BCs, etc. What would have made things much more interesting and informative to the viewers would be visible resource/unit counts, but alas, Afreeca/the organizers have failed us...
I noticed the VNSL games are set up with Observer maps with Use Map Settings mode, so it's unfortunate we can't see such valuable info when the observer clicks around. In virtually all online leagues (recent example), the resource/unit count switches to the player when his unit is clicked on, so I'm not sure what setting (or map?) is disabling this feature for the VNSL, but alas, it stinks
It may just be me, but I prefer not being able to see the stats like that. Sometimes games look quite close, but being able to see the supply counts etc reveals that the game is in fact over.
On November 17 2015 10:46 FlaShFTW wrote: i hate everything and everyone. i quit. This had to happen on my birthday too right? GOD DAMN IT HERO I JUST WANTED YOU TO BEAT SEA
On November 17 2015 10:46 FlaShFTW wrote: i hate everything and everyone. i quit. This had to happen on my birthday too right? GOD DAMN IT HERO I JUST WANTED YOU TO BEAT SEA
On November 17 2015 10:46 FlaShFTW wrote: i hate everything and everyone. i quit. This had to happen on my birthday too right? GOD DAMN IT HERO I JUST WANTED YOU TO BEAT SEA
Ok, now that I've watched the game finally, time for my analysis.
First off, fuck Match Point. Such a shitty map for Zerg vs Terran. More difficult 3rd compared to most maps, they have to guard two ramps, the natural can get shelled by low ground tanks, the 4th gas is literally impossible and too hard, mineral only 3rd/4th base only helps Terran and Protoss. Seriously, hero was already facing an uphill battle.
Early game, blah blah, typical jostle for the middle, Sea did manage to take more map control, but decent harass by hero, I'd give Sea a tiny edge, but negligible. Hero: Easily took 3rd without problems, able to deal some economic damage with muta, ling harass. But lost all mutas early so lower map control, also gave up most map control to Sea (but match point). Sea: Map control, setting up 3rd and probably 4th, macro is on point. No real cons to his position.
Mid game: Ok hero, just take that 4th gas and you'll be home free. Hero did a sick job killing off all the vessels in the air, I was really impressed watching it. decent cloning and he was taking engagements like a champ... BUT. He never got a 4th. Too much time trying to harass Sea's 3rd/4th that he didn't grab his own 4th gas base and.... teched too fast. Got greedy. And he got punished.
Late game: No 4th gas in sight for hero, Sea playing immaculate denial with tanks from the main hitting the 6, 12 never being taken really. Sea playing great defense as hero begins getting desperate and tries to throw the whole kitchen at Sea. Doesn't break, no gas to support hive tech, BC comes out, its over. No 4th gas, and that is the most crucial base for Zerg in the late game.
All in all, a great game from Sea, very well played. He should probably try to take better engagements, but his game sense was on point and his denial of the 4th base was impeccable. Hero... man dude wtf. You played good. Not great, just good. You had your typical good engagements as you always do, but you're game sense this game was lacking. Seriously, you did a decent harass. Now lay off, defend, and take that 4th gas, and you're home free. YOU HAD THE ADVANTAGE. Then you threw it away. I give Sea an A this game and hero a B+. Great game to watch though, 5/5.
Man that last game was really entertaining. But also really, really sloppy by sea, especially the first half. He continually had horrible to sub-par splits throughout, lost vessels super easily, and wasn't able to keep hero from moving defilers and lurkers across the map.
When hero was swarming the 4th with those 3-4 lurkers killing the scvs, and then swarming into Sea's third I really thought it was done for Sea, but he had some crucial fire-bats in the back, just enough to hold his third right about at the time hero was running low on gas. A few more ultra or lurk at that time and hero takes the game.
Gotta hand it to Sea for making those BCs, the fact that they killed the 4th absolutely won him that game. We didn't get to see hero's response to them, and it's possible he didn't handle them well (since 2 BC's did kill a hatch after all), but nevertheless that was the game winning move for Sea.
Despite it's sloppiness, sick, sick game overall. Was seriously close the entire time, and didn't "turn" clear until Sea re-secured his 4th and held his 3rd and established control of the platform. Solid 4.5/5 game, only kept from being a 5/5 because it was sloppy at times.
On November 17 2015 06:58 Miragee wrote: It was because, although he had both, the 6 and the 12 at some point in the game, they never were really up and running at any point in time.
True. And I addressed this. Although I think part of the momentum slipping had to do with him literally running out of gas.
He was basically on 3 gas the entire game and you can't support ultras and defilers off of 3 gas - at least not continuously. On 3 gas you are basically playing the stalling game with lurkers, lings and defilers + scourges to snipe vessels, which worked extra-ordinarily well for hero this game. You do this until you get a fourth gas up and running while teching upgrades/to ultras. Now that never happened and hero tried to support defilers and ultras off of 3 gas and that didn't work out.
No one's disputing this. But I'd assume at some point in the game he wasn't even on three gas, what with depleted geysers.
As for the scourges built to kill the battlecruisers: He had to build them either way. If there weren't battlecruisers there would be vessels instead that he needed to snipe. The few scourges for the battlecruiseres weren't a huge factor here, especially when you note that a zerg usually has to build a lot more of them to kill of the science vessels because a lot of scourges will usually be marine fodder.
True, but two scourge for a vessel each seems better than five (or six, if they're shot out of the air) per BC.
Hero didn't need to build many here because Sea actually handed his vessels over "for free".
Right, so if Sea gave his vessels "for free", then that's gas that he could have used for something else. Get my meaning? See next point.
Also, the first time the battle cruisers actually killed the 6 was at a time where the game was already at the changing point. It was a hit in the right time because it stopped hero for the last time to get his hands on a fourth gas but every unit of that cost (let it be 2 dropships with M&M) could have sniped that undefended 6, really.
edit: This is certainly a possibility. I think by building BCs, however, he forced hero to tank gas into what is basically a sunk cost. That is, they'll first take a bunch to blow the BCs out of the sky, but you also can't reuse a scourge. When they're gone, they're gone. As opposed to any other unit which has some sort of staying power. That is, if he had dropped bio, he blocks with some other unit (let's say he manages this), and gets more out of the investment. By gaining air control, he forced hero to make a decision that cost him more than it benefited.
Sea vs Hero. What a game. Never-ending action all across the map.
Sea did a great job twisting Hero around with SK terran to prevent him from really securing a fourth gas. Hero was played well until the point where he needed to take the fourth.
You can see the intensity of the game in Sea's face after he received Hero's gg.
edit - I didn't like how Hero seemed to place less importance in defending his fourth.
so happy for Sea, tbh didn't expect such a comeback in an elimination game. Nice mines (one got two defilers in a critical fight near 6).Could have tried nukes for 6 but BCs worked well, too. Great midgame from hero, would have probably won had he not switched to ultra
EPT
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VANT36.5 National Starleague![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/82.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/noimage.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/108.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/544.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dYCIaV3.png)
Sea in an offline league... If he can play even as moderately well as he does online, this group should be pretty straight forward... TvZ against 
hero on FS is just not fair :/
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pTPlt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MLegIEH.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/INRK6cSl.png)
