EPTINDECISIVE on tonight.
D Rank Teamleague Season 5 - Page 23
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Biolunar
Germany224 Posts
INDECISIVE on tonight. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Reasoning: The support for team splitting appears to stem from one assumption: it is any given player's prerogative to choose whether and in what capacity he wants to play, thus he has the right to join and leave teams. The right is basic and I do not contest it. I do not believe team splitting is a natural manifestation of this right. It in fact limits and dictates a player's options. Consider a situation with teams ABCDEF. If a player on Team A wants to join another team for whatever reason, he would normally have 6 options: join one of the 5 existing teams, or create a new team, whereupon he seeks fellow players in a draft or some other fair format. If Team A undergoes a team split scenario, this preempts that freedom and prescribes his future team and teammates. Of course, the player still retains his right and can exercise it post facto, but since both choices were already made for him he may longer have cause to. In the SB situation, if every player on the roster was involved via democratic input on the split decision, and they each chose the split as the optimal solution to exercise their rights, then the SB situation is acceptable to me on that front. I still oppose the practice on principle since I believe choices involving team leaving/joining should begin with the players, not the captains. YES to tonight. + Show Spoiler + tonight is C- max. The league environment involves C- max players being allowed to play. I believe anything less of equal treatment to C- max players is hypocritical and unfair. Currently we approach the C- membership issue with a grandfather clause: players who played in previous seasons are allowed to continue playing even after reaching C-. Grandfather clauses tend to be introduced in law in cases where a new provision begins for which there were no such old provisions in the past. They can be justified case by case. However, the practice is also historically rooted in discriminatory laws aimed at disenfranchising African Americans in the US South. I believe this is also a discriminatory situation, especially since it has protected such a status quo for upwards for 4 seasons. Normally when a grandfather clause eases in the introduction of a new regulation, it is to allow comfortable operation of anything affected until the new regulation can properly take hold in all intended circumstances. I believe the league is past such a point, and it must decide unequivocally whether or not C- is within its scope. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
Team split vote tally. Votes Yes (8): Birdie dazed_spy DarkNetHunter art_of_turtle greenelve Biolunar Babo (NOT PLAYING AFAIK) RulZBoooM (ggrrg) Votes No (8): Cpt.Beefy (AtomicArchon) ImAtTheBeach EchOne Sentenal Squishy Gao Xi (Shuruken) NOT PLAYING AFAIK Nagisama aeghrur (ghrur) | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On August 07 2013 07:07 anklebreak wrote: tossboy is themarine? this is sad. you were c- rank when i left and then 1.5 year later you're worst then you were before. i guess practice everyday back then in ued didn't help at all. You know what's really sad? That you got to C rank somehow. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams. Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus. The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own. | ||
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Gao Xi
Hong Kong5178 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 08 2013 06:38 EchOne wrote: So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus. The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own. | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
On August 08 2013 06:28 Sentenal wrote: No on team spit, Yes on Tonight Yeah, fuck Team Spit. Terrible team. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
No on team split, NO ON TONIGHT CUZ HES MEAN | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
On August 08 2013 06:45 Dazed_Spy wrote: So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless. A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could... tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument. and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players. If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players. | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
"YES" to Birdie split. Reason is it essentially becomes two unaffiliated teams. "NO" to tonight. Anyone who is good enough for sMi was probably more than C- when they hit it. [prophecy_ is D] | ||
Nagisama
Canada4481 Posts
No for tonight. + Show Spoiler + This goes back to the argument last season regarding letting puppykiller into the league. If it ends up yes, then puppykiller should also be allowed into the league. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/puppykiller.html C is different from C-. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
Yes on tonight. @Echo The support for team splitting appears to stem from one assumption: it is any given player's prerogative to choose whether and in what capacity he wants to play, thus he has the right to join and leave teams. The right is basic and I do not contest it. I do not believe team splitting is a natural manifestation of this right. It in fact limits and dictates a player's options. Consider a situation with teams ABCDEF. If a player on Team A wants to join another team for whatever reason, he would normally have 6 options: join one of the 5 existing teams, or create a new team, whereupon he seeks fellow players in a draft or some other fair format. If Team A undergoes a team split scenario, this preempts that freedom and prescribes his future team and teammates. Of course, the player still retains his right and can exercise it post facto, but since both choices were already made for him he may longer have cause to. In the SB situation, if every player on the roster was involved via democratic input on the split decision, and they each chose the split as the optimal solution to exercise their rights, then the SB situation is acceptable to me on that front. I still oppose the practice on principle since I believe choices involving team leaving/joining should begin with the players, not the captains. If any player is not satisfied with such a decision, they can object it. If they are so opposed to it, players can decide to leave. Your example about a player's options for joining a team is not appropriate either. In the current situation, it's not about players wanting to leave the team for good. You also neglect to acknowledge the social dynamics within the team: e.g. players that are good friends prefering to split together rather than joining other teams. Ultimately, Birdie is neither a king nor a wizard. He certainly doesn't have any power over his players other than making suggestions. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
On August 08 2013 07:56 ggrrg wrote: In the current situation, it's not about players wanting to leave the team for good. They don't want to leave their team, yet they want to make another team? | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:05 EchOne wrote: They don't want to leave their team, yet they want to make another team? Yes, because players ABC want to play together. In your example, you assume that one player leaves his team. Here, a bunch of players who want to play together are involved. | ||
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