On July 13 2012 08:14 TheShimmy wrote: Honestly I think that this league should allow for C- players. Not doing so discourages improvement for players in the league. The commissioners can limit the amount of C- or "super D+ playes" per team. I mean honestly having these really talented players makes for fun games, and lots of talent. I think all of those above players should be allowed in.
I disagree, if they're C- then they're not eligible for a D ranks tournament. It may be a for fun tournament but it's no fun if teams can play an auto-win player, which is what a C- player is, essentially. I wouldn't want to play in a D ranks tournament if I was C- anyway, it'd be too much of a fake ego boost.
Check my edit, I was referring to C- that had been in seasons one or two. I mean, S Class players and players far above others (flash, fanta, etc.) are autowin in PL and they seem to drive the league with their talent.
For what my 2 pence are worth, I think it's a better idea to allow these players on the edge of the rank limit to participate. Give the others something to rise to, otherwise the levels of play in the league become very flat indeed...
On July 13 2012 08:21 ImbaTosS wrote: For what my 2 pence are worth, I think it's a better idea to allow these players on the edge of the rank limit to participate. Give the others something to rise to, otherwise the levels of play in the league become very flat indeed...
My point exactly. Having top tier players allows for upsets, excitement, and a high level of play for players to rise to.
SKT3 could use a few more active players. I remember at the end of Season 2 we dropped down to just 4 active players and had to forfeit 2 games the last 2 matches we played right off the bat.
On July 12 2012 13:08 Sentenal wrote: So are we STILL not going to have pre-submitted lineups this season, even though 76% of people in this league want it? I guess its a big "fuck you" to Europeans or people who simply can't show up on time.
On July 08 2012 19:24 Birdie wrote:
Poll: Should DRTL3 have pre-submitted lineups with penalties for late submis
Pre-submitted lineups with penalties (36)
82%
Lineups submitted on the day (8)
18%
44 total votes
Your vote: Should DRTL3 have pre-submitted lineups with penalties for late submis
(Vote): Pre-submitted lineups with penalties (Vote): Lineups submitted on the day
Presumably pre-submitted lineups would be 1 week early, and penalties would be severe. Pre-submitted lineups mean that postponements are allowed and teams can plan stuff in advance; on-the-day submission is less likely to have captains submitting late.
Pre-submitted lineups don't really work out that well. As far as that being a huge fuck you to Europeans, I'd like to remind you that the league is being played on a Sunday afternoon when it comes to European players. Plus, the poll has barely anyone voting in it, unlike the one about the format, which had pretty much everyone.
Oh, my bad. So instead of being a big "fuck you" to Europeans, its a big "fuck you" to people in California and Australia? Not sure if thats much better. I'm not alone in thinking this, as virtually everyone on my team agrees, and I'm sure many people on other teams are the same.
Barely anyone in the league has said they want the format like this. You keep saying "it doesn't work", "it doesn't work". Last season, when people didn't submit lineups, how many instances were there that you handed out penalties? I'm pretty sure I've asked that already. I can't remember a single instance of penalizing a team for submitting late lineups. I know Courage never benefited from that last Season. And I can't think of a single legit reason why a Captain would submit their lineup late, knowing there is a penalty they they do.
People have even offered solutions to your problems with late lineups. One guy was saying, if the lineup is late, simply force them to use their previous week's lineup, no changes allowed. Then there is the simple "actually give them a penalty" way to go.
BW is game of skill most players who are D- can not beat a D+ so we can have upsets only with D ranks. Another thing is rivalry will also occur with only D ranks. We do not need C- players winning every single game waiting for an upset, there will be teams without C- players and would be in a sever disadvantage.
I fail to understand how pre-submitted lineups don't work well. If people don't submit lineups, then you punish them. How you choose to do so may vary. Not wanting to punish the whole team because of one person's laziness is not a valid reason. The team is still at fault for not making sure whoever is in charge is doing their job. If they really don't want to be punished, then they would assign someone responsible and reliable to get the job done. If they can't even do this, then they clearly don't care enough about being punished.
The CSL uses pre-submitted lineups and it seems to work for the 100+ teams (I think over 200 by now or something). On one hand, this allows for preparation, but the real philosophy behind this is because the goal of the league is to play games. This isn't a profession where we want people to be online at a specific time or you lose. Everyone has different schedules and real life obligations and to expect everyone to be free at the same time is ludicrous. People will be unable to play games but will also be able to make it up - given the chance. Pre-submitted lineups allow for rescheduling between players because the goal is to play the games and have fun, not enforce a strict schedule. If I'm wrong about wanting to have fun and you just want to abuse your authority and try to get a world record of forfeits in a season, well, okay, that's different and I stand corrected.
You say that it doesn't work that well but the only "issues" it could possibly have are a result of lazy leaders. Lineups on the day will definitely have more problems because it's on not just the leader but all the members to be on time, and this will not happen. Having worked with the CSL in the past, I have firsthand experience with people not showing up to rescheduled times - times both parties individually suggested and agreed upon. If that doesn't work, how do you expect all games to be played with an arbitrary time thrown at us? Hell, I had a grudgematch last week and the poor guy got sent to the hospital the day of. Conversely, I have overseen many rescheduled matches where nothing goes wrong. In fact, it was very common to see entire teams reschedule the match to account for school events or exams, and those also went smoothly. Stuff happens; pre-submitted lineups can only help to remedy this.
Personally, I thought it was going to be same time as last season and was excited but as I have real life obligations on Sunday mornings, it looks like I won't be able to play this season. Thanks for that.
I think that Nikon's problem right here is that as soon as you start enforcing punishments within a league, it's not uncommon for leaders+teams to take it very, very badly on the day. Think raging posts here, players leaving because they're pissed off at having to follow rules, a lot of bad press and negative energy for the league.
With not showing up at the weekly scheduled time, it's far simpler to enforce. Much less scope for argument.
Having said this, since it seems outside of people's ability to make a little time on a weekend for an hour or so, pre-submitted lineups are probably the only way to go.
I can make time on a weekend but 4am is pretty hard especially on a Sunday/Monday. And I have players from Europe, South East Asia, Audtralasia, and North America so being able to schedule matches at non-4am times would be very useful.
I mean, if both teams are willing to pre-submit lineups, then as far as I see it theres no problem. Its just that some teams cannot foresee who will show up or not, so the rule is in place to prevent another team from forcing pre-submitted lineups.
On July 13 2012 22:51 TheShimmy wrote: I mean, if both teams are willing to pre-submit lineups, then as far as I see it theres no problem. Its just that some teams cannot foresee who will show up or not, so the rule is in place to prevent another team from forcing pre-submitted lineups.
Why is forcing teams to pre-submit lineups a bad thing?
Surely if you presubmit a lineup, you would be in contact with the other team, to arrange a date where both teams can attend, and if a guy scheduled to play can't make it then you can rearrange as long as it doesn't carry over to the next match day, at which point you can just defloss the guy that didnt show
I'm fine with both formats, but with the experience of the previous season I think lines submitted on the day are much more likely to work better to fix the WO problem.
Punishing late submissions won't help. It was tried previous season too.
Let's roll this way for this season and see how everything pans out.
On July 13 2012 22:51 TheShimmy wrote: I mean, if both teams are willing to pre-submit lineups, then as far as I see it theres no problem. Its just that some teams cannot foresee who will show up or not, so the rule is in place to prevent another team from forcing pre-submitted lineups.
Why is forcing teams to pre-submit lineups a bad thing?
I'm not entirely sure if I can follow the arguments on both sides here. What exactly is the huge advantage of pre-submitted lineups? I don't see how this would prevent players from just not showing up, even if the organizators are really trying to do teir job as best as they can. It's not a 100% safety that it will happen as planned, just not possible in a clan league. And aren't there already punishments for no shows? Walk overs? Besides, punishments should always be the very last thing in such an event.
Pre-submitted line-ups are not supported by the BWCL script as far as I remember (not sure though), so Nikon or the other admins (if there are any) have to do exactly the work that should be done by the page. It might be a bit easier for you, but makes life horribly hard for the few people that run the thing. Plus, if a team leader "sucks" or is afk himself for a week or longer, there is no guarantee that they could do the job for the admins (e.g. exchanging it with other team leaders).
Really, the best way to avoid any kind of no-shows is to work on your own (which most teams here do, I really like the spirit of some users here) and try to get in touch with other leaders. You could try to set up some sort of leader network via IRC, a mailing list or exchange IM adresses. No admin will stop you from a civilized way to communicate and I'm quite certain that Nikon wouldn't mind teams trying to postpone games before the wars start, if that can happen without minor drama along the way ('cause my experience tells me that's the way it most times happens :/). It depends a lot on the active community rather than the admins. They're not miracle workers and do a trade off between what's possible and what would drown them in additional stuff they have no time for.
On July 13 2012 22:51 TheShimmy wrote: I mean, if both teams are willing to pre-submit lineups, then as far as I see it theres no problem. Its just that some teams cannot foresee who will show up or not, so the rule is in place to prevent another team from forcing pre-submitted lineups.
Why is forcing teams to pre-submit lineups a bad thing?
I'm not entirely sure if I can follow the arguments on both sides here. What exactly is the huge advantage of pre-submitted lineups? I don't see how this would prevent players from just not showing up, even if the organizators are really trying to do teir job as best as they can. It's not a 100% safety that it will happen as planned, just not possible in a clan league. And aren't there already punishments for no shows? Walk overs? Besides, punishments should always be the very last thing in such an event.
Pre-submitted line-ups are not supported by the BWCL script as far as I remember (not sure though), so Nikon or the other admins (if there are any) have to do exactly the work that should be done by the page. It might be a bit easier for you, but makes life horribly hard for the few people that run the thing. Plus, if a team leader "sucks" or is afk himself for a week or longer, there is no guarantee that they could do the job for the admins (e.g. exchanging it with other team leaders).
Really, the best way to avoid any kind of no-shows is to work on your own (which most teams here do, I really like the spirit of some users here) and try to get in touch with other leaders. You could try to set up some sort of leader network via IRC, a mailing list or exchange IM adresses. No admin will stop you from a civilized way to communicate and I'm quite certain that Nikon wouldn't mind teams trying to postpone games before the wars start, if that can happen without minor drama along the way ('cause my experience tells me that's the way it most times happens :/). It depends a lot on the active community rather than the admins. They're not miracle workers and do a trade off between what's possible and what would drown them in additional stuff they have no time for.
The major advantage is timezones. The current times for DRTL3 are ideal for Europeans, since it would be ~5-6pm on a Sunday for them. It's not bad/okay for those in the Eastern North American time zone, which is 12pm Sunday. However, for those playing on the west/mountain time in NA, this is 9am/10am respectively. Being gamers, I'm sure most would prefer to sleep in than try and wake up, but still this isn't TOO bad. The biggest problem is for those in the SEA/Australia/New Zealand timezones. This is 4am their time, which no one wants to stay up that late, or try and wake up for that.
Pre-submitted lineups allow players to know who they're playing ahead of time, and allows the players to individually contact their opponents to try and reschedule. This is the main pro for pre-submitted lineups as it allows maximum number of players to be played, and not limited to those who can make it on game time.
However, I didn't realize that BWCL doesn't actually support pre-submitted lineups. While I'm glad that BWCL has been kind enough to allow us to use their website to ease the scheduling on the admins, I'm still confused as when the actual page for the DRTL on the site will be setup. We've been told to make a clan page, which I'm sure many have, but we're 2 days til game time, and we don't even know which teams we're going to be facing yet. I don't mind trying this out for the first week and see how it actually goes though. But I do not really like last minute lineups, since we've already lost two players due to the choice of time and I'm sure other teams have too.
If we do switch back to pre-submitted lineups, I'd be happy to volunteer in helping with posting lineups between teams and such. Others have also offered their services too.
Players grow faster if they play people their own skill level. Ur not gonna get better playing FlaSh or Bisu. All they would do is roflstomp you and there's nothing you can say "here's what i should have done better." C-, I feel like, offers that, but not as well as the entire D rank league would do. It's D rank for a reason. C- should stay with C. Really, once you get up to the C level, it's basically how much you ladder. imo, mid-high C- --> low C+ is all one grouping.
On July 13 2012 22:51 TheShimmy wrote: I mean, if both teams are willing to pre-submit lineups, then as far as I see it theres no problem. Its just that some teams cannot foresee who will show up or not, so the rule is in place to prevent another team from forcing pre-submitted lineups.
Why is forcing teams to pre-submit lineups a bad thing?
I'm not entirely sure if I can follow the arguments on both sides here. What exactly is the huge advantage of pre-submitted lineups? I don't see how this would prevent players from just not showing up, even if the organizators are really trying to do teir job as best as they can. It's not a 100% safety that it will happen as planned, just not possible in a clan league. And aren't there already punishments for no shows? Walk overs? Besides, punishments should always be the very last thing in such an event.
Pre-submitted line-ups are not supported by the BWCL script as far as I remember (not sure though), so Nikon or the other admins (if there are any) have to do exactly the work that should be done by the page. It might be a bit easier for you, but makes life horribly hard for the few people that run the thing. Plus, if a team leader "sucks" or is afk himself for a week or longer, there is no guarantee that they could do the job for the admins (e.g. exchanging it with other team leaders).
Really, the best way to avoid any kind of no-shows is to work on your own (which most teams here do, I really like the spirit of some users here) and try to get in touch with other leaders. You could try to set up some sort of leader network via IRC, a mailing list or exchange IM adresses. No admin will stop you from a civilized way to communicate and I'm quite certain that Nikon wouldn't mind teams trying to postpone games before the wars start, if that can happen without minor drama along the way ('cause my experience tells me that's the way it most times happens :/). It depends a lot on the active community rather than the admins. They're not miracle workers and do a trade off between what's possible and what would drown them in additional stuff they have no time for.
Sounds to me like the system is somehow designed to cater to the administrators, rather than the players? Something seems backwards here.
The advantages of pre-submitted lineups is huge for the player base, which allegedly this league is for. First off, it greatly helps towards practice. If both people know who they are going to play, they can prepare much better. If I know I'm going to play PvZ for example, then I can practice my PvZ, get a build down. And the other guy can do the same. This makes for much better games. Without this, there is no way to prepare a build for a match, you just go on, and wing it. This part should go without saying.
Next, no-presumbitted lineups makes rescheduling matches an impossibility. For people on the East Coast and Europe, this is ok. Noon on a Sunday, or Sunday afternoon. But what about people on the West Coast? Sunday morning at 9am. Lots of people have church at that time, not to mention thats really early in the morning. What about people in Australia or New Zealand? Thats 4am on a Monday, or something. Like I said, no presubmitted lineups makes it almost an impossibility for these people to play.
So, pre-submitted lineups would make for better games, and allow for more people to play. Also, players in this league WANT it. I posted a poll that Nikon apparently decided wasn't important, that is now 25-7 in favor of presubmitted lineups.
Poll: Should DRTL3 have pre-submitted lineups with penalties for late submis
Pre-submitted lineups with penalties (36)
82%
Lineups submitted on the day (8)
18%
44 total votes
Your vote: Should DRTL3 have pre-submitted lineups with penalties for late submis
(Vote): Pre-submitted lineups with penalties (Vote): Lineups submitted on the day
Lineups submitted on the day apparently is easier for the people running this. And somehow will prevent walkovers. Captains submitting late lineups shouldn't be a problem if captains do their job, which honestly should be expected and required of them in the first place. I have no idea how completely eliminating the possibility for rescheduling will prevent walkovers, but thats the argument.
On July 13 2012 19:20 ImbaTosS wrote: I think that Nikon's problem right here is that as soon as you start enforcing punishments within a league, it's not uncommon for leaders+teams to take it very, very badly on the day. Think raging posts here, players leaving because they're pissed off at having to follow rules, a lot of bad press and negative energy for the league.
With not showing up at the weekly scheduled time, it's far simpler to enforce. Much less scope for argument.
This does not make sense. If people are complaining about enforcing rules, that just shows how immature they are. I don't understand how there is less scope for argument if all you are doing is moving the time of when to submit lineups. As I said before, the CSL uses this method (granted, the website supports it and makes it easier on admins, but this is an issue of work, not logistics). It works very well imo and here's what happens. Teams submit lineups by Wednesday. It isn't hard to submit a lineup, and if teams really cared about not getting punished, they would ensure this happens. Again, if you are too lazy to submit a lineup then complain about punishments that are clearly stated, you are just being immature and no matter what system is used, these people will rage when things don't go their way.
Lineups are then revealed, allowing people to see who their opponent is. This immediately allows for each individual set to work out a time between them to get their game played, as long as it is prior to the original time. If players cannot agree on a time, even if one is being unresponsive, the default game time will be used. Then, when this default game time happens, anyone who does not show up to their game will forfeit (subs are allowed at this point) and no one can complain because this is the latest games are allowed to be played (with some exception, when both sides and admins agree). As you said, if you haven't played your game by the weekly scheduled time, you have no argument about losing.
The only exception is when players agree to a new time and one does not show up. For this, logs are required and both players are contacted to clarify the situation. In the CSL, although this happened, I rarely encountered rage or players being angry about these rules. As I said in my previous post, CSL's philosophy was play the games if possible because we want to have fun and pre-submitted lineups allow this. Line-ups the day of, while perhaps simpler, causes far more frustration among players who legitimately want to play but can't in exchange for a league that, although will run quite smoothly, will be lacking a lot of games and players it otherwise could have had.
Having said this, since it seems outside of people's ability to make a little time on a weekend for an hour or so, pre-submitted lineups are probably the only way to go.
You make it sound like we're too lazy to play an hour of bw. How about, we have real life obligations and although there are 10+ other hours we can play on the weekend, the hour is already decided and we have no say in the matter? It's BECAUSE we are able to make time that pre-submitted lineups are better.
However, I will concede this makes it more laborious on the admins. If this is the case, get some help instead of using a more rigorous system that is not friendly toward casual gamers. I'm pretty sure several people have already offered their help.
I'd also like to again state that I worked with CSL as an admin using this exact system. A single CSL division has about the same teams/players than entire DRTL, and there were no problems (1-2 admins per division). While the site made the work a lot easier on me, there was also hardly anything to do because players organized new times among themselves, played the games with no problem, and submitted results. I'd be lying if I said it was uncommon to encounter rage, but can you honestly tell me the CSL has a lot of bad press regarding its unfair rules and pre-submitted lineups? If two leagues can use the exact same system and only one has "raging posts and bad press" or some huge problem with forfeit wins, clearly the issue is the players, not the system.
On July 14 2012 01:28 Sentenal wrote: ... Sounds to me like the system is somehow designed to cater to the administrators, rather than the players? Something seems backwards here. ...
This statement sounds a bit harsh, even though I can understand some of the advantages now. Maybe try to offer them a solution that gives them less work to do, e.g. a thread that somebody co-operates or a network I described earlier. If Nikon is still alone with this division such a thing might work, if he has to do that additional to what he already does it's just too much. Remember he is just human after all
Why can't you guys stop whining?! if its an issue leave it to the teams regarding the issue. I am amazed Nikon is putting all this together considering all the shit from season 2 and your all telling him quite bluntly that he's wrong. I'd like to see any of you make a tour deal with issues consisitently and have a huge mess yet make a new season and be calm all the while pple keep bothering you. Shit what is wrong with D's nowadays? and Hydra shut up your angry we all get it and just put fuel to the flaming your gone then stay gone stop bringing up pointless crap and ditch that's what Eywa- did last season and he was banned for it. Now if it was me I'd ban you for your last statement that's caused more issue pple let Nikon and captains resolve this this isn't a damn war we are fighting....
EPT
AtomicArchon (captain)
Pebble444(PvZ)
aeghrur
especially on a Sunday/Monday. And I have players from Europe, South East Asia, Audtralasia, and North America so being able to schedule matches at non-4am times would be very useful.
