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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 10 2011 03:12 zenMaster wrote: Looks like throwing money around buying players doesn't help you win championships. You mean it only works when the player you buy is Bisu? I'd agree with you if it had been Hite or OZ that beat KT, but... | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
best gif evar | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On April 10 2011 08:38 Elroi wrote: I disagree with everything in this post. It is a good thing that a team can't just rely on one player. Depth should have a meaning in proleague. That is a very important aspect of proleague - proleague is not the same thing as the starleagues in this case. That being said, WL is the part of proleague where the big stars have the opportunity to shine by carrying their whole team anyway so your argument is a bit strange. And don't even insinuate that Bisu cheesed that game, please. He did go for a straight game, you must have fanboy glasses. I was indeed a bit disappointed and it sounded more harsh on Bisu than it should have. I will try to make my point clearer. I like that team depths counts in Team formats and don't want that teams can rely on only one player. What I dislike sometimes are the games the Winner's league format leads to. In normal Proleague you have one game with one of the big guns and if he gets paired against an inferior player (in this case S2) that player will try his odd build and whether it fails or not, the next game is normal again. In Winner's League the game against the inferior player (S2) goes the same way as in PL but the game after that sometimes is just the same like the game before, someone going for a high-variance opening (but this time on a race friendly map) and hoping to get the better end of it. This happens in many games of Khan with Stork, Oz with Jaedong and KT with Flash. Watching 2-4 games were one big name player fends off attacks from all different angles is also spectacular but now I am happy to be back to regular Pro League. In this case, Bisu was of course not one of the inferior players but his opening was at least semi-cheesy, worked perfectly and put him into a giant advantage. It was very aggressive and relied on Flash going Rax into CC with high variance on the 50-50 chance where Flash would scout first. | ||
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night terrors
China1284 Posts
On April 10 2011 07:45 Fenrax wrote: That is the ugly side of the Winner's League format. If you only have to take down one player that is superior to everyone on your team, just throw 4 cheesy builds in a row on race friendly maps at him and one time the scouting luck or the opponent's buildorder will be with you. I really do not enjoy watching these kind of games. It is not about playing a solid game, it is about increasing the variance by gambling on things you can't influence. I would have much rather liked to see Bisu go for a straight game but it is understandable that he was afraid after the beating he took from Flash last game. Scouting luck was with him and that was that. Nothing wrong with it, that is the right strategy, but the Winner's League format leads to these ugly not watchworthy games. What? I.. dont.. get... it. How does studying your oponent and being ahead of him not a solid game? Its flash we're talking about, even if you prepare a build you have to have great mechanics for it to work. When flash does it everyone thinks he's great because he's one step ahead in mind games, but when Bisu does it he's a coward? Wow. Fanboyism does really bring out the worst in people. | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
Oz put more of a fight than KT well JDOz | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:18 Holgerius wrote: I, and others, have been criticizing Bisu for being too predictable. Today he switched things up and used a prepared and smart build order to disable Flash's super strong Rax FE opening. He deserves nothing but credit for that game.  Yep, it was good to see the cheesy Bisu (Cheesu?) back in form. While there were many things to be annoyed about today as a Flash fan, the fact that Bisu played a great game isn't one of them... | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 10 2011 07:45 Fenrax wrote: That is the ugly side of the Winner's League format. If you only have to take down one player that is superior to everyone on your team, just throw 4 cheesy builds in a row on race friendly maps at him and one time the scouting luck or the opponent's buildorder will be with you. I really do not enjoy watching these kind of games. It is not about playing a solid game, it is about increasing the variance by gambling on things you can't influence. I would have much rather liked to see Bisu go for a straight game but it is understandable that he was afraid after the beating he took from Flash last game. Scouting luck was with him and that was that. Nothing wrong with it, that is the right strategy, but the Winner's League format leads to these ugly not watchworthy games. The last game was indeed frustrating to watch as a Flash fan, but let's not pretend it was an especially risky build by Bisu. First, Flash always does the same opener in TvP. Secondly, it's a 3-player map, so Bisu's scout would place Flash on the first scout no matter what. It was a very good build by Bisu and not some sort of all-in or desperate gamble. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On April 10 2011 08:52 Spekulatius wrote: Call it cheese or not, but to be fair, he said he went for a build that would put him at a disadvantage if Flash had gone for a factory expand, and that "for his strategy to work" he needed Flash to go Barracks into expansion. "When I pushed out with my Zealots, for my strategy to work, Flash had go for a rax expand, but if he had gone for a factory expand instead, then I could have been at a disadvantage, but since the game went the way I wanted it to go, I was able to win." - Bisu (from the Post-game interview) But I don't know how sincere he is - Korean players (MC aside) are known to be humble about their success. Lol you have to be joking right? Any build will put the player at a disadvantage against a certain build. 3 Hatch pool puts you at a disadvantage against standard depot-rax or early rax. 14CC puts you at a disadvantage against 2 gate or DT rush blah blah, you get the point. It is a gamble for every build, specifically calling Bisu's choice of a build a "cheesy" one is doing discredit to his work. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 10 2011 08:19 disciple wrote: the gif represents a pure and genuine emotion. korean players dont show any of that on a regular basis. bisu would never react the same way about some sort of personal achievement. as a person that played in a soccer squad for quite a while I know what it is to represent a team. Bisu has all my sympathy in his emotion, I just know how he felt, and the feeling is nothing short of utter bliss lol I honestly can't tell if you're trolling the guy or temporarily lost the ability to read out of sheer happiness =D edit: nvm trolling it is  | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On April 10 2011 08:52 Spekulatius wrote: Call it cheese or not, but to be fair, he said he went for a build that would put him at a disadvantage if Flash had gone for a factory expand, and that "for his strategy to work" he needed Flash to go Barracks into expansion. "When I pushed out with my Zealots, for my strategy to work, Flash had go for a rax expand, but if he had gone for a factory expand instead, then I could have been at a disadvantage, but since the game went the way I wanted it to go, I was able to win." - Bisu (from the Post-game interview) But I don't know how sincere he is - Korean players (MC aside) are known to be humble about their success. It was a gimmicky build to say the least. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:35 Djabanete wrote: lol I honestly can't tell if you're trolling the guy or temporarily lost the ability to read out of sheer happiness =D edit: nvm trolling it is how is this trolling? | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:32 konadora wrote: Lol you have to be joking right? Any build will put the player at a disadvantage against a certain build. 3 Hatch pool puts you at a disadvantage against standard depot-rax or early rax. 14CC puts you at a disadvantage against 2 gate or DT rush blah blah, you get the point. It is a gamble for every build, specifically calling Bisu's choice of a build a "cheesy" one is doing discredit to his work. Don't get me wrong. I don't wanna discredit Bisu, he played amazingly, hands down. I just wanted to say that Flash played in his hands by doing the build Bisu assumed he was going to do. That's a thing that (as you said) is true for all games. Some builds will always work out more or less well depending on what build your opponent is doing. Without taking anything from Bisu, Flash's build order, without being risky, made it easier for his opponent. That's all I wanted to say. | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:40 ibreakurface wrote: It was a gimmicky build to say the least. what was gimimicky about it? talk about the least part, I mean it's not a terrible idea to put the gateway on high ground on an inverted map. Flash never does a different build vP anymore. Such a predictable build. Fanboys praise his turtle style cuz he has the best defense around, but when his greedy builds fail and his defense fails him against someone who can micro, then blame the other play. Rax expand has its risks, this time, it cost a championship. | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
On April 10 2011 10:00 henzi wrote: what was gimimicky about it? talk about the least part, I mean it's not a terrible idea to put the gateway on high ground on an inverted map. Flash never does a different build vP anymore. Such a predictable build. Fanboys praise his turtle style cuz he has the best defense around, but when his greedy builds fail and his defense fails him against someone who can micro, then blame the other play. Rax expand has its risks, this time, it cost a championship. Can we do without this particular troll argument, please? Flash went factory before expo in his three most recent TvPs before this. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:58 Spekulatius wrote: Don't get me wrong. I don't wanna discredit Bisu, he played amazingly, hands down. I just wanted to say that Flash played in his hands by doing the build Bisu assumed he was going to do. That's a thing that (as you said) is true for all games. Some builds will always work out more or less well depending on what build your opponent is doing. Without taking anything from Bisu, Flash's build order, without being risky, made it easier for his opponent. That's all I wanted to say. Oh I see. Then it's alright I guess, it's kinda predictable when you're the target of an entire team lol. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
I would like someone to point out exactly in which point of the game that Bisu gained an advantage due to map feature. One point that I recognized was the wide bridge which is beneficial to retarded dragoon AI/mass zealot while Terran prefers one tiny choke to control. Flash handled it well with the depot wall. Bisu ended up attack from the tiny ramp anyway, ignoring the map feature. Let's face it, on a balanced map with a balanced choke point, Bisu would have broken the containment regardless due to his significant unit advantage. So what other Aztec feature played an instrumental role in this game? The natural choke that couldn't be fully wall off? It is not a feature unique to Aztec either. So what other points are there? | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
goddamn bisu, that was really gay pvt abuse was rooting for flash hard User was warned for this post | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:40 ibreakurface wrote: It was a gimmicky build to say the least. Gate-FE has been around for a while, you don't know what you are talking about lol. Had Bisu gone for the normal Range-Expand, Bisu would've been at a disadvantage against Flash's Rax-FE, wheras it would've been even if Flash went FD. Considering that the map is Aztec, Bisu probably correctly guessed that Flash would attempt to push every single advantage he could press to get his timing push out faster (even skipped turrets lol) | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
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