Banner thanks to prototype, other graphics taken from disciple. Also, if you like truth, feel free to click the banner. Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:00 PM, Channel MBCGame
This match can either be one-sided or very interesting. It really depends on whether or not the players of WeMade decide to play well. Each of their top players has a lot of skill, but they rarely show it. SKT, on the other hand, has many skilled players who are showing a lot more consistency right now(along with the fact that they have more skill). The quality of these games hinges on whether or not a certain child has his rainbow socks. In no particular order: Bisu > Shine BeSt > BaBy Kwanro < Mind Soo_SKT > Midas Fantasy < Pure s2 > RorO
Fox will make it a series, at the very least. Mind and Baby are both playing way better than they were at the beginning of this season, and as long as Pure doesn't run into Best he should win (although a Pure v Best game would be of epic macro proportions).
Man I'm in a quandary. I only supported WeMade because NaDa is my favorite player of all time, but I actually like all the guys on T1 more than any of the people currently on WeMade. But if I switch now I'll feel like a traitor.
that's a lot of lings inside ssak's main, along with mutas. At least a control group enters the main. Marines take care of the lings while the mutas retreat. Lurkers have finished morphing and are on their way to ssak's base
This map doesn't seem very good for mech from what I've seen in this game. As soon as Ssak stepped into the middle, Roro was able to completely circumnavigate his army and cause general havoc. Not to mention the final attack from all sides on plagued tanks...
On November 07 2010 13:39 Nikon wrote: This map doesn't seem very good for mech from what I've seen in this game. As soon as Ssak stepped into the middle, Roro was able to completely circumnavigate his army and cause general havoc. Not to mention the final attack from all sides on plagued tanks...
In general, the new maps favor aggressive play. Well, except Central Plains.
Two things I noticed I missed from BW, having watched a lot of SC2 recently: 1) the music. BW's soundtrack is so freaking good, and I took it for granted until I heard SC2's "blah" music 2) vulture play. So fun to watch. Mines and micro.
On November 07 2010 13:41 JWD wrote: Two things I noticed I missed from BW, having watched a lot of SC2 recently: 1) the music. BW's soundtrack is so freaking good, and I took it for granted until I heard SC2's "blah" music 2) vulture play. So fun to watch. Mines and micro.
Don't forget bigger battles and bigger army size and defilers
On November 07 2010 13:41 JWD wrote: Two things I noticed I missed from BW, having watched a lot of SC2 recently: 1) the music. BW's soundtrack is so freaking good, and I took it for granted until I heard SC2's "blah" music 2) vulture play. So fun to watch. Mines and micro.
I like Broodwar because you can actually tell what's going on. Battles last much longer and individual spots of awesome micro stand out.
On November 07 2010 13:49 Fenrax wrote: Are they really singing "fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me"?
I heard "Puppy", but your version is definitely better.
On November 07 2010 13:49 Fenrax wrote: Are they really singing "fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me"?
On November 07 2010 13:51 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Does South Korea observe Daylight Savings as well? I didn't realise that. Good news though if it does - means I'm back to only 3 hours ahead.
arbiter heading into fantasy's main - recall into the main mineral line! emp on the bunched protoss units shuttle dies before dropping things (templar?)
armoy being attacked/repaired one armory destroyed - but it was the later one, probably upgrading armor
Tanks and mines annihilating dragoons. Pure manages to hold onto 1 o clock It looks like it's 4 base vs 4 base now. Pure is in a lot of trouble and tanks push forward
On November 07 2010 14:09 Rhombus wrote: i want fantasy to do well so badly. he's my favorite player come on fantasy! yayayayay.
(this took me like a billion minutes to write. he went from not looking that great to winning in the course of this post.)
when was he not looking great?
he was on equal bases with P for the longest time, held off recalls without much damage, and was able to pull of some good harass while preserving most of his harassing units
I really don't rate sending in the obs before every recall. You give the terran crucial time to react and it really weakens the effectiveness of the recall plus you lose the obs. It's very safe play but against someone like fantasy i don't think a toss can afford it.
On November 07 2010 14:11 Scarecrow wrote: I really don't rate sending in the obs before every recall. You give the terran crucial time to react and it really weakens the effectiveness of the recall plus you lose the obs. It's very safe play but against someone like fantasy i don't think a toss can afford it.
ANOTHER probe kill, finally one of the lings in bisu's main dies
is that a spire for shine? finally another 2 lings in the main to frighten off the scouting probe and another pair of lings from the nat corner the probe and kill it
but hydra merely drops in front of bisus's nat 2 observers immediately sniped!
bisu is going to lose his forge? but the lurker killed just in time nevermind the forge explodes anyways another obs is out but quickly sniped by hydra
bisu breaking out with a goon heavy army this time, with storm too 2 scourge there unable to snipe the obs bisu taking some damage but clears his front but here come more hydra bisu needs storm!
bisu's 3rd is up - protected by a mere 2 cannons a pretty large hydra force attacks up bisu's megaramp - now his 3rd will fall quickly did shine defend his 3rd? bisu with mostly goon'storm whittling down shine's attack
bisu's macro/micro that game was impeccable, he managed to pull that one out of his ass through sheer concentration... even until the end it didn't look like bisu had won, shine could've defended his third probably instead of wasting his mutas
On November 07 2010 14:38 renzy wrote: Wow, I cant believe Bisu was able to pull another unbelievable win out of his ass agian...
That's called BvZ Also known as refusing to lose to Zerg.
I have to admit I thought he'd left his Observers too late, but once he broke down that original contain he slowly but surely worked his way into the game. His transition to Goons was well timed as well I thought.
On November 07 2010 14:43 Zona wrote: shine upgraded drop...just to drop units in front of bisu's nat
That was sooo lol. At first it seemed he was dropping into Bisu's main - but it got scouted - then he decided to drop it just outside the natural........ lol
So here's a dumb question about all these K-pop performances: no way they're actually singing right? Like, the mics are for show and they're just lip syncing, correct?
On November 07 2010 14:43 Zona wrote: shine upgraded drop...just to drop units in front of bisu's nat
Yeah, I've seen zergs do that before. Research drop, but don't actually commit to a doom drop, just let your opponent know you have it and keep him looking over his shoulder the rest of the game. Can keep P from amassing too much of one huge death ball.
Of course, that's the kind of investment that pays off over time. This is Shine we're talking about, everyone knew this wasn't going to go to late game. Just a waste of resources here.
On November 07 2010 14:49 JWD wrote: So here's a dumb question about all these K-pop performances: no way they're actually singing right? Like, the mics are for show and they're just lip syncing, correct?
Some but not all. Most koreans look down on lip syncing, so performers try to sing live.
On November 07 2010 14:49 JWD wrote: So here's a dumb question about all these K-pop performances: no way they're actually singing right? Like, the mics are for show and they're just lip syncing, correct?
On November 07 2010 14:49 JWD wrote: So here's a dumb question about all these K-pop performances: no way they're actually singing right? Like, the mics are for show and they're just lip syncing, correct?
Some but not all. Most koreans look down on lip syncing, so performers try to sing live.
I ask because singing while pulling off all those intense dance moves would be crazy impressive. I think I'd be short of breath even without trying to belt out a song... I guess it helps that you're in a super-group and so have several voices to back you.
On November 07 2010 14:49 JWD wrote: So here's a dumb question about all these K-pop performances: no way they're actually singing right? Like, the mics are for show and they're just lip syncing, correct?
Some but not all. Most koreans look down on lip syncing, so performers try to sing live.
I ask because singing while pulling off all those intense dance moves would be crazy impressive. I think I'd be short of breath even without trying to belt out a song... I guess it helps that you're in a super-group and so have several voices to back you.
You can tell when the voices arent on par and theres heavy breathing when they sing. Though lead vocals will cover that up. :D
lol 3port wraith followup baby so silly attacks as soon as the first vulture comes out but not much s2 can do about it drones bumrush one of the vultures mutas morphing
bah there's just 1 sunken and a mass of hydra to defend s2 loses his 3rd and all the drones there and if he had a better unit mix he could have easily saved it
i love it so much with mbc vs woongjin and kpop. kpop makes me not fall asleep during commercial breaks. but i think i fell asleep in a bit while watching baby and s2 lol
Baby's opening was BRILLIANT and left him massively ahead, then he builds 3 Starports instead of just winning. From then on both played bad, but S2 far worse.
Damn, SKT is sending out their zergs and new players only. This means either Kwanro won't be played, or Best won't be played. Let's hope Soo wins so that Bisu doesnt have to pull another win up his ass. lol
lings trying to bait out the rine/scv scvs transferred to the nat - lings can't do anything about it? depot starts at the nat - the building scv picked off
firebat/medic added to mind's rine force they move forwards to control the choke maybe soo could have made one pass to the scvs at the south before that happened? maybe not worth losing the lings though
mind's seen the lurkers - they pull back and burrow at the center with the few lings and mutas as support
oh, just a creep at soo's nat - lurkers creep forwards, mutas use the lurkers as cover and net a few rine kills - mnm trying to take the right bridge - a few more die but now rushing towards soo's nat 3 lurkers burrow there, the sunken starting
2nd armory, 5th fact going up mind isn't laying close to enough mines for things to be effective
vultures try to raid towards 7.5 but lurkers are there and lings hold the ramp, the back off
a bunch of cracklings brutally murder some mnm - but here come vultures but mind stops controlling the vultures and lsoes a bunch of them more vultures come and the cracklings die, after checking 12 for a base (there isn't any)
1 wraith/coliath killing the guardians at 12 - cc only at yellow health, will likely survive all guardians destroyed barracks sees the expo at 3 and the new hatch forming at 9
a good response - mines killing more lings around the map though
still, soo's in decent shape mind's army moving west towards 10.5 - trying to secure the area for a base? but the scv waiting there picked off before cracklings killed by vultures
most of the ultras die - but they take 2 tanks and a bunch of stuff with them still 2 ultras in the 10.5 main though - killing scvs mind rebuilding science facility lots of cracklings dying to mines but some break through
hydra clearing mines towards mine's main swarms go down 2 tanks can't hole against soo's army more mines being laid - 3 more tanks behind them soo's army destroyed for now? lot more coming though
On November 07 2010 15:37 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: ... guardians. Definitely served their purpose...
Srsly? :O
Wow!
I know, it felt sorta weird typing that sentence, but I reckon I was justified in doing so. IMO it was a really nice harass option by Soo, and one that caught Mind on the hop.
Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take ten in response. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
On November 07 2010 15:52 Zona wrote: "hey, let's try to deep six BeSt...I think we'll catch him off guard"
"that didn't work? well, let's try it again...surely he won't expect it twice in a row!"
"oh..."
that was quite hax by Best I couldn't believe it haha
One thing best really tries his best to do is keep an eye on one his opponent's doing observers, forward goons, etc and responds appropriately his support bay both games didn't start until terran moved out
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
Well after Bisu vanished for a time, ZvT skill is what gets you far since most protoss aren't goot vP anyway. Except Bisu who manages to be god tier regardless of imba.
On November 07 2010 15:37 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: ... guardians. Definitely served their purpose...
Srsly? :O
Wow!
I know, it felt sorta weird typing that sentence, but I reckon I was justified in doing so. IMO it was a really nice harass option by Soo, and one that caught Mind on the hop.
The first batch of 4 were really worth it since Mind ignored them and sieged up Soo's 8. They were free to fire on 12 for a very long time.
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
On November 07 2010 15:49 PineappleLumpsToss wrote:
On November 07 2010 15:40 yanmaodao wrote:
On November 07 2010 15:37 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: ... guardians. Definitely served their purpose...
Srsly? :O
Wow!
I know, it felt sorta weird typing that sentence, but I reckon I was justified in doing so. IMO it was a really nice harass option by Soo, and one that caught Mind on the hop.
The first batch of 4 were really worth it since Mind ignored them and sieged up Soo's 8. They were free to fire on 12 for a very long time.
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
Fake yellow disagrees with your statement.
Fake yellow's in prison
He still disagrees. His ZvP was shitty compare to his anything else.
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
Fake yellow disagrees with your statement.
Fake yellow's in prison
I think all of them got suspended sentences
more forces hacking away at the best's back back back eggs
dt spazzes out in best's back back nat, wasting valuable time
obs is out just as probes are maynarded to lucifer's front nat as the dts arrive maybe 3 kills? best adding 2 more gates (to 4?), finally getting range lucifer adding 5th gate, forge best's back back nat finishes 6th gate for lucifer
lucifer's storms on the opposing army are better all game but it doesn't matter best has more than double of lucifer's goons at lucifer's nat lucifer's mouth is open
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
Well yeah, okay. I'm aware of the stats, but many of them have played such a small sample of games that stats don't mean as much as what we judge from watching their gameplay from select matches. I'm saying that as someone who usually trusts in the evening-out effect of long-term stats and am skeptical of the typical anti-statistics arguments.
SK's vP is 7-5, for instance, which is technically 58%. But if that means his vP is better than the vT clinic he just put on against Sea, then, for instance, Hydra's 8-5, 60%+ vT must mean he's better than Yarnc. Classic's 60%+ record after 20 games must mean he's as good as Stork or Fantasy. SK's last two games against Bisu and Snow inspired neither confidence nor the idea that he's aware that units exist other than lings that he can use in the matchup.
I don't know. When JD first started out, he was a vT sniper who was horrible at vP. So we'll see. In the long term, zergs will always be stronger against P than T, I suppose, at least in BW.
On November 07 2010 16:20 dtvu wrote: Best is dedicated to winning on central plain - only central plain.
Didn't Best beat Flash on Icarus, thus spearheading the belief that that map is very P>>T?
(When it's only 13-10, reasonable given the inherent T>Z>P>T in BW. Truly uberbalanced maps like MP are rare. T is spoiled from last season's maps, methinks, they think T>Z 56% P>T 51% maps are "normal". We'll see how it plays out as the sample size gets larger.)
On November 07 2010 16:24 trifecta wrote: skt is crazy deep
still, given the team's reputation...I still find it mind-boggling that they basically have 1 main terran 2 main tosses and 3 main zergs (soo/s2/kwanro) and 1 2nd-stringer of each race (ssak, by.sun, hyuk <-unfortunately) there's canata too but I have a feeling he's close to retiring well maybe he won't if he gets a bit farther in the MSL this time
All these zergs that have to suffer through fighting Bisu are really trying hard to do something amazing to beat him. Seriously, I never expected great and to a lesser extent Shine to play like they did.
On November 07 2010 07:46 Milkis wrote: Shine > Bisu
shine makes hydras, Bisu gets flashbacks and shudders in fear and pauses the game without pp to get disqualified
Roro > Best. Alternatively, Pure > Best
Dosairs will rule the skies tonight, or Pure will show he is the new pvp bonjwa
Baby > Fantasy
after a game filled with vulture harass fantasy gets out multitasked and ggs
[insert random wemade B Teamer] > [insert random skt zerg]
skt zerg shows how they earned the nickname
WeMade > SKT
skt ez game
I like how a Bisu vs Shine game actually happened. Too bad though. BISUUUUUUUUUU <3 SKT still going undefeated :3
This is what happens when Shine tries new things instead of just all ining with hydra + mutas (or just pure hydras). If he spent the resources on lurkers on pure hydras, he would have had the game when the first bust came about >
I guess we've entered another cycle of Bisu pulling away in PvZ and zergs catching up to him. After 2007 and late 2008 this is the third period he is looking so insanely dominant in the MU
On November 07 2010 15:55 yanmaodao wrote: Is it just me, or does this generation of zergs really how to play ZvT? Action, Soo, and Soulkey all have ZvT as strong as if not stronger than ZvP, it seems.
New maps may play a role, though. Turtling on four-ish bases doesn't work if the other guy can take 10. Mapmakers responding properly to mid-2010 imba late game turtle TvZ.
Best > WMFrandomterran
No, nobody can ZvT better than they can ZvP, even these guys, Soulkey's ZvP is better than his ZvT and same with Soo (go check TLPD). Then again I wouldn;'t call soo anything cause he's inconsistent as fuck, and mind played horribly. As for action, his ZvT hasn't been anything special recently. Unfortunately all he's good at in the matchup is defiler usage but the general trend for terrans is to pressure earlier now (as opposed to camp in base --> push at 9 minutes used almost every game 2 years ago) and in the late game switch to mech, both of which diminish the role of defilers in the matchup
Well yeah, okay. I'm aware of the stats, but many of them have played such a small sample of games that stats don't mean as much as what we judge from watching their gameplay from select matches. I'm saying that as someone who usually trusts in the evening-out effect of long-term stats and am skeptical of the typical anti-statistics arguments.
SK's vP is 7-5, for instance, which is technically 58%. But if that means his vP is better than the vT clinic he just put on against Sea, then, for instance, Hydra's 8-5, 60%+ vT must mean he's better than Yarnc. Classic's 60%+ record after 20 games must mean he's as good as Stork or Fantasy. SK's last two games against Bisu and Snow inspired neither confidence nor the idea that he's aware that units exist other than lings that he can use in the matchup.
I don't know. When JD first started out, he was a vT sniper who was horrible at vP. So we'll see. In the long term, zergs will always be stronger against P than T, I suppose, at least in BW.
all big zergs started with ZvT being their speciality
On November 07 2010 17:11 ThePhan2m wrote: Whats up with the 7th game being reccomended as the best of the year when there is none?
It's just so that silly people don't spoiler themselves by going: "I opened the spoiler for the 7th game recommendation and it was EMPTY! Now I know that there was no 7th game so I know the outcome of the 6th game. Boohoo."
On November 07 2010 19:59 disciple wrote: I guess we've entered another cycle of Bisu pulling away in PvZ and zergs catching up to him. After 2007 and late 2008 this is the third period he is looking so insanely dominant in the MU
yeah seriously... everytime this happens and the zergs catch up i'm fooled into thinking that is that. not bisu though...
On November 07 2010 21:34 oneofthem wrote: bisu didn't play all that well. the zerg lost his lead through dumb play
I wonder if it's necessary to devalue wins like that. It happens so often. A player wins and a bunch of random comments state: "He didn't really win, the other guy was just terrible." What does that accomplish?
if true, a situation like that shows that the player didn't perform all that well and thus would not support the idea that he is in very good form. it's not deflating the win btw, just not inflating it.
but that being said, Bisu is indeed in very good form, so games like that actually reinforce the statement that he just keeps winning, even if not playing flawlessly
On November 07 2010 22:05 oneofthem wrote: if true, a situation like that shows that the player didn't perform all that well and thus would not support the idea that he is in very good form. it's not deflating the win btw, just not inflating it.
luckily we're judging bisu's performance vs great, vs shine. not vs jaedong, not vs perfect theoretical play.
judge people against their time, not a theoretical standard, otherwise all players more than a couple of years ago were terrible. they weren't.
On November 07 2010 22:05 oneofthem wrote: it's not deflating the win btw, just not inflating it.
haha come on dude. Simplistik had a point, you can't dodge it with semantics like this.
the original contention was that based on this particular game, we can see that bisu is in unstoppable pvz form. this is clearly not true and is indeed inflating his form. i'm just pointing this out, which is not deflating the win in any way.
seems like all the t1 fans are hyping bisu up. i'm a t1 fan as well, but i remember t1 fans hating bisu back when he was stomping with mbc. bisu has some nice wins to start the season and he's in really good form, but the slate of opponents so far isn't enough to hype him up all that much just yet. i'm just calling it as it is.
i agree that bisu is in very good form because of his winning streak in PL. when we also think that bisu has awakened from his deep deep sleep, then he is indeed in good form.
but based on bisu vs shine, i can't really say that it's bisu at his best. he almost lost there when his obs was delayed and HT was sniped but then again what matters is the result and get the job done. i guess, haters and skeptics are just waiting for bisu to win against great zergs and that is againts the tyrant jaedong or win a game against flash for that matter.
edit: i'm a huge bisu fan and t1 fan but i'm still a little bit skeptic on bisu's resurgence + Show Spoiler +
esp. when he lost to kal in the wildcard (although it was just a wildcard)
On November 07 2010 22:05 oneofthem wrote: it's not deflating the win btw, just not inflating it.
haha come on dude. Simplistik had a point, you can't dodge it with semantics like this.
the original contention was that based on this particular game, we can see that bisu is in unstoppable pvz form. this is clearly not true and is indeed inflating his form. i'm just pointing this out, which is not deflating the win in any way.
Of course he's not unstoppable, no BW player is unstoppable in any matchup, particularly not in single games. Exaggeration is quite common in these threads. However, though he probably is not unstoppable, he hasn't been stopped yet either! I think he's in good form and his win series and elo peak are the supporting evidence.
See the thing is, most skeptics won't give up their position unless they see overwhelming evidence of it. What I mean by that is Bisu has to beat Jaedong 3-0 without cheese and without Jaedong attempting cheese. That will never happen, so skeptics will always be skeptics. Imagine Bisu wins 3-0 and Jaedong tried to cheese twice, they will be like "oh jaedong must not have practiced because he cheesed twice" or if Bisu does a Stork-like build they will say "oh bisu just used cheesy build he isn't actually better than jaedong." There is no point in trying to convince people that Bisu is "back" or "unstoppable," simply because so many people have such high standards for someone who is not their favorite player, and inversely we Bisu fans get excited over anything it seems so yea. No side will ever convince the other, just give up.
I thought Flash's play was pretty mediocre when he played Effort and that he couldn't beat a slightly better zerg, and guess what? He beat Jaedong 3-0. Also, I really don't see a problem with how Bisu played. The only thing that wasn't perfect in his play was losing 3 observers, but that honestly can't be helped sometimes because they were out of position. He also shut down the doom drop and the later muta harass without losing too much. I'd say he had pretty solid play. Shine went all-in, and that's why it looked like he had a chance. If he didn't, then there's no way in hell that he'd have any chance in this. Until Jaedong beats him convincingly in a series, then you can't really say he's out of form, because in the last few months, the only loss he had was due to a late reaver(which was admittedly a mistake on his part). Also, I find i strange that people say he played bad when he's reaching a new ELO peak. The last time this peak was slightly after Bisu came out of nowhere and defeated the best zerg in the world(who is supposed to never lose to P) 3-0 in the biggest upset in the history of BW. If you can say he's not that great from there, then you'd need a lot of evidence.
Performance in SPL and his win streak are awesome, but Bisu's game against Shine was really poor. Despite having a probe in the base, his cannon timing was off and allowed 2 zerglings into his base. Then, despite having a zealot to defend, he lost 2 probes to 2 zerglings. During this time (though understandably) he also lost his scout. It's not game-losing but also not something you can accept doing if you were up against a better Zerg.
Bisu's game was fine, just nothing to get too excited about. The way to defeat a player like Shine (particularly Shine) is to hold off his low-tech all-in until it runs out of steam. Then you win, even if you were set back initially, since the Shine had no intention to use the all-in gain a long-term advantage. What Bisu showed here was a basic competence (that seemed to be lacking in many of his games last season).
On November 08 2010 02:44 Ecrilon wrote: Performance in SPL and his win streak are awesome, but Bisu's game against Shine was really poor. Despite having a probe in the base, his cannon timing was off and allowed 2 zerglings into his base. Then, despite having a zealot to defend, he lost 2 probes to 2 zerglings. During this time (though understandably) he also lost his scout. It's not game-losing but also not something you can accept doing if you were up against a better Zerg.
Shine was really sneaking and made a pair of lings from his natural or third, while Bisu was busy harassing the workers in the main. haha. So Bisu didnt see the zerglings at all.
On November 08 2010 02:44 Ecrilon wrote: Performance in SPL and his win streak are awesome, but Bisu's game against Shine was really poor. Despite having a probe in the base, his cannon timing was off and allowed 2 zerglings into his base. Then, despite having a zealot to defend, he lost 2 probes to 2 zerglings. During this time (though understandably) he also lost his scout. It's not game-losing but also not something you can accept doing if you were up against a better Zerg.
Bisu's cannon timing was off because Bisu saw the opportunity to cut corners, which he decided to put down his gateway before his first cannon, and he pretty much got away with it.
Quite honestly, the only flaw from Bisu I saw was when he decided to engage the Hydras/Lurker with only his Zealots when it was pretty clear he'd lose the battle, I thought he was throwing away units very needlessly there. Otherwise, fantastic play by Bisu in fending off the 3 base all-in.
On November 07 2010 21:34 oneofthem wrote: bisu didn't play all that well. the zerg lost his lead through dumb play
It seemed to me that Shine never really had a "lead", per se, he was going allin off of 3 bases and had a really low drone saturation. Shine pretty much had to end it there or he'd get steam-rolled later on.
On November 08 2010 03:29 Xiphos wrote: PvZ, 50%!!!! THIS IS THE FALL GUYS!
more like with a lack of good ZvPers...
I mean the only zergs I call good ZvPers are Zero, JD and Shine since Effort is gone now.
SuperArc's philosophy; no one is ever good at anything, there are just different levels of bad.
How can you say that? Hell this time even stats back me up. Go look up ZvP ELOs. You see Calm (horrible slump), July (gone), Effort (gone), Hyuk (horrible slump), Juni (wtf?) in the top10.
Who else apart from the names mentioned are good ZvPers?
On November 08 2010 03:29 Xiphos wrote: PvZ, 50%!!!! THIS IS THE FALL GUYS!
more like with a lack of good ZvPers...
I mean the only zergs I call good ZvPers are Zero, JD and Shine since Effort is gone now.
SuperArc's philosophy; no one is ever good at anything, there are just different levels of bad.
How can you say that? Hell this time even stats back me up. Go look up ZvP ELOs. You see Calm (horrible slump), July (gone), Effort (gone), Hyuk (horrible slump), Juni (wtf?) in the top10.
Who else apart from the names mentioned are good ZvPers?
I say that because you use that way of thinking quite a lot.
On November 08 2010 03:29 Xiphos wrote: PvZ, 50%!!!! THIS IS THE FALL GUYS!
more like with a lack of good ZvPers...
I mean the only zergs I call good ZvPers are Zero, JD and Shine since Effort is gone now.
SuperArc's philosophy; no one is ever good at anything, there are just different levels of bad.
How can you say that? Hell this time even stats back me up. Go look up ZvP ELOs. You see Calm (horrible slump), July (gone), Effort (gone), Hyuk (horrible slump), Juni (wtf?) in the top10.
Who else apart from the names mentioned are good ZvPers?
Shine does not have good ZvP. He's below 50% in the matchup with over 40 games played, which is really inexcusable for an A-team zerg. I'd take Calm over him. A slumping Calm is probably at least as consistent vP as an in-form Shine, and a resurgent Calm would be scary.
Excuses, excuses...falling behind and winning - comeback. But it doesn't matter how Bisu played as long as he won cuz winners just have to play a little better than losers. If Hyuk's ZvT is ridiculously weak, his opponents let him getting Hyuked by himself
the problem wtih bisu's play that game was just that he was very close to being denied a 3rd expo and starved to death. he was too insistent on attacking, which would have been his undoing had the zerg not waste his mutas or expanded/macroed better. he even said in the interview that he misjudged his position in the game.
of course, this is not to say that he didn't play well or isn't good. it's just that this particular game isn't anything to get excited about.
On November 08 2010 08:50 oneofthem wrote: the problem wtih bisu's play that game was just that he was very close to being denied a 3rd expo and starved to death. he was too insistent on attacking, which would have been his undoing had the zerg not waste his mutas or expanded/macroed better. he even said in the interview that he misjudged his position in the game.
of course, this is not to say that he didn't play well or isn't good. it's just that this particular game isn't anything to get excited about.
Shine had a low saturation of drones and was going allin by pumping units non-stop. Bisu was in no real danger of losing the game, taking a fast third would be suicidal against Shine's strategy. Had Shine expanded, Bisu would've destroyed him for sure..
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/m9fFZ.png)
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SK Telecom T1 vs ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/uniforms/7.png){kind=icon}
WeMade FOX
Bisu > 
Shine
BaBy![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/disciple/PLPO/POlin_copy.jpg)
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come on! you can do it!
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