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On September 12 2010 02:00 darkmetal505 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 01:03 KristianJS wrote:On September 12 2010 00:47 darkmetal505 wrote:On September 12 2010 00:35 Musoeun wrote:
It still remains that Flash has beaten Jaedong the last four consecutive BoX they've played, three of them finals. I don't know if you count that as "helplessness", but it's beyond insanely impressive. Then the word isn't really applicable. The term was made for Savior and so Flash should be judged against that. Savior was not bonjwa because he had crazy good records, it was because no matter what opponents did, Savior just did not lose. You went in thinking, "jeeeez, who the hell can beat this guy." Come on, are you trying to tell us that you didn't think the same of Flash this last year? People have thrown everything at him (remember Winner's League Final for example?) and he still found a way to win. There's not been a single game Flash has played for like the last year where he hasn't been the huge favourite, with the exception of JD. Now that exception is removed. Honestly if you didn't think stuff like "who the hell can beat this guy?" after games like his semifinal against Fantasy or whatever then you're seriously in a very tiny minority. I guess my interpretation of the dominance is different from the majority then. I judge players mostly on my gut feeling. When I looked at Savior, I kept thinking "even if his opponent practiced 24 hours a day and Savior didn't practice at all, there is still no chance they would win." That's what I attribute the word Bonjwa to. I got really close to that feeling for Bisu after he beat Savior, but I'm sorry that I've never completely felt that with Flash. I can honestly say, without any bias, that with good preparation, players like Jaedong, Effort, and Fantasy still have he ability to take a win over Flash in a BoX. This just based on the quality of the games and not the results. Just like I believe that players like Flash, Bisu, and Stork have the ability to beat Jaedong in a BoX. If anything, the games between Fantasy and Flash showed to me that there are people who can dance at the top. Out of the past 3 finals between Flash and Jaedong, the first one was the only one where I felt Flash's dominance and Jaedong had no idea what to do. These past two just didn't feel like it showed the true skill of either player because of factors in game. Right now, I can't honestly look in your face and say that Flash will roflpwn Jaedong every time they meet from henceforth. The reason I say this is, again, is because Broodwar has evolved into a machine that spits out these cookie cutter monsters. The dominance of these players is not akin to the dominance of the Four Kings. It's just a different feeling. The time period to make the next Bonjwa died with Bisu and it's too bad he couldn't. No doubt Flash (and he's fucking amazing) has the crown right now, but it's not the same, and thus I feel like the word Bonjwa just doesn't fit.
There were players during savior's prime who could, "with good preparation", beat him in a box. savior had to go 3-2 several times. Why is savior so different from Flash there?
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On September 12 2010 02:00 darkmetal505 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 01:03 KristianJS wrote:On September 12 2010 00:47 darkmetal505 wrote:On September 12 2010 00:35 Musoeun wrote:
It still remains that Flash has beaten Jaedong the last four consecutive BoX they've played, three of them finals. I don't know if you count that as "helplessness", but it's beyond insanely impressive. Then the word isn't really applicable. The term was made for Savior and so Flash should be judged against that. Savior was not bonjwa because he had crazy good records, it was because no matter what opponents did, Savior just did not lose. You went in thinking, "jeeeez, who the hell can beat this guy." Come on, are you trying to tell us that you didn't think the same of Flash this last year? People have thrown everything at him (remember Winner's League Final for example?) and he still found a way to win. There's not been a single game Flash has played for like the last year where he hasn't been the huge favourite, with the exception of JD. Now that exception is removed. Honestly if you didn't think stuff like "who the hell can beat this guy?" after games like his semifinal against Fantasy or whatever then you're seriously in a very tiny minority. I guess my interpretation of the dominance is different from the majority then. I judge players mostly on my gut feeling. When I looked at Savior, I kept thinking "even if his opponent practiced 24 hours a day and Savior didn't practice at all, there is still no chance they would win." That's what I attribute the word Bonjwa to. I got really close to that feeling for Bisu after he beat Savior, but I'm sorry that I've never completely felt that with Flash. I can honestly say, without any bias, that with good preparation, players like Jaedong, Effort, and Fantasy still have he ability to take a win over Flash in a BoX. This just based on the quality of the games and not the results. Just like I believe that players like Flash, Bisu, and Stork have the ability to beat Jaedong in a BoX. If anything, the games between Fantasy and Flash showed to me that there are people who can dance at the top. Out of the past 3 finals between Flash and Jaedong, the first one was the only one where I felt Flash's dominance and Jaedong had no idea what to do. These past two just didn't feel like it showed the true skill of either player because of factors in game. Right now, I can't honestly look in your face and say that Flash will roflpwn Jaedong every time they meet from henceforth. The reason I say this is, again, is because Broodwar has evolved into a machine that spits out these cookie cutter monsters. The dominance of these players is not akin to the dominance of the Four Kings. It's just a different feeling. The time period to make the next Bonjwa died with Bisu and it's too bad he couldn't. No doubt Flash (and he's fucking amazing) has the crown right now, but it's not the same, and thus I feel like the word Bonjwa just doesn't fit.
Well said and thought out though, I disagree with what you've said entirely. That's okay though, we don't need to see eye to eye, you defended your point of view without going on the attack.
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Only overly nostalgic Savior fanboys would argue that he was more dominant than Flash. JD is miles above any other player (except Flash) right now, and still Flash has smashed him in 3 straight finals.
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that was such a bad set tbh, I was hoping for better games
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I was totally rooting for Flash in this matchup. Dual golds, golden mouse, etc. is awesome to see.
That being said, I think I'll probably actually root for Jaedong next time this happens... "Flash wins" does get a little old sometimes. And I kind of like Jaedong as a player, and think it's a pity that he's had such little luck with Flash; I'm just biased against him because I don't like zerg. ;-)
Also, I think game 3 may have been the shortest pro game I've seen... certainly no memorable ones stand out in my mind that are anywhere close. (Or maybe G3 was actually longer than I think, and it just seemed really short.)
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United States10774 Posts
On September 12 2010 02:18 Holgerius wrote:
Only overly nostalgic Savior fanboys would argue that he was more dominant than Flash. JD is miles above any other player (except Flash) right now, and still Flash has smashed him in 3 straight finals.
This exactly. Flash (and Jaedong) are the best players to ever play SC. Flash is simply at an unprecedented level. And I'd argue that he is the most dominant player ever.
gooood series ggs
------
From other thread:
From October 1 2009 until today.
Record:
140-41 (77.35%)
TvT
49-14 (77.78%)
TvP
37-8 (82.22%)
TvZ
54-19 (73.97%)
Individual Titles:
4 Gold 2 Silver
Team league Titles:
PL Finals Gold WL Finals Gold
ELO Record
2443
Kespa Record
4292.5
-------------------------
If that's not the most DOMINANT performance we have ever seen, then I don't know what is.
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On September 12 2010 02:15 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 02:00 darkmetal505 wrote:On September 12 2010 01:03 KristianJS wrote:On September 12 2010 00:47 darkmetal505 wrote:On September 12 2010 00:35 Musoeun wrote:
It still remains that Flash has beaten Jaedong the last four consecutive BoX they've played, three of them finals. I don't know if you count that as "helplessness", but it's beyond insanely impressive. Then the word isn't really applicable. The term was made for Savior and so Flash should be judged against that. Savior was not bonjwa because he had crazy good records, it was because no matter what opponents did, Savior just did not lose. You went in thinking, "jeeeez, who the hell can beat this guy." Come on, are you trying to tell us that you didn't think the same of Flash this last year? People have thrown everything at him (remember Winner's League Final for example?) and he still found a way to win. There's not been a single game Flash has played for like the last year where he hasn't been the huge favourite, with the exception of JD. Now that exception is removed. Honestly if you didn't think stuff like "who the hell can beat this guy?" after games like his semifinal against Fantasy or whatever then you're seriously in a very tiny minority. I guess my interpretation of the dominance is different from the majority then. I judge players mostly on my gut feeling. When I looked at Savior, I kept thinking "even if his opponent practiced 24 hours a day and Savior didn't practice at all, there is still no chance they would win." That's what I attribute the word Bonjwa to. I got really close to that feeling for Bisu after he beat Savior, but I'm sorry that I've never completely felt that with Flash. I can honestly say, without any bias, that with good preparation, players like Jaedong, Effort, and Fantasy still have he ability to take a win over Flash in a BoX. This just based on the quality of the games and not the results. Just like I believe that players like Flash, Bisu, and Stork have the ability to beat Jaedong in a BoX. If anything, the games between Fantasy and Flash showed to me that there are people who can dance at the top. Out of the past 3 finals between Flash and Jaedong, the first one was the only one where I felt Flash's dominance and Jaedong had no idea what to do. These past two just didn't feel like it showed the true skill of either player because of factors in game. Right now, I can't honestly look in your face and say that Flash will roflpwn Jaedong every time they meet from henceforth. The reason I say this is, again, is because Broodwar has evolved into a machine that spits out these cookie cutter monsters. The dominance of these players is not akin to the dominance of the Four Kings. It's just a different feeling. The time period to make the next Bonjwa died with Bisu and it's too bad he couldn't. No doubt Flash (and he's fucking amazing) has the crown right now, but it's not the same, and thus I feel like the word Bonjwa just doesn't fit. There were players during savior's prime who could, "with good preparation", beat him in a box. savior had to go 3-2 several times. Why is savior so different from Flash there?
I told you man, it's the feeling I got watching. I can't really explain it. It also has a lot to do with the type of players that were around and the time period Broodwar was going through. That type of dominance that Savior showed just doesn't work anymore FOR ANYONE because BW has reached a near perfect level. What I'm saying is that Bonjwa is the incorrect word. Coin another term for Flash, that's fine with me. Call him "master of the universe of Starcraft" for all I care. It's just you can't apply the connotation of "bonjwa" anymore.
On September 12 2010 02:18 Holgerius wrote:
Only overly nostalgic Savior fanboys would argue that he was more dominant than Flash. JD is miles above any other player (except Flash) right now, and still Flash has smashed him in 3 straight finals.
If you're talking about me, I don't think Savior was in any form more dominant than Flash. Flash and others are much better than Savior ever was. I also don't believe Flash "smashed" JD in the past 2 finals, just the Hana MSL.
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United States10774 Posts
What do you mean you can't apply "Bonjwa" to Flash anymore? He defines Bonjwa in every shape and form. When I watch Flash play, the "feeling" I get is like none other. It's quite amazing. He reads his opponents many levels deeper than anyone could, his mechanics are near perfection, and he's just an incredibly smart player as well.
"Bonjwa" was made for Flash and I don't know who you are to argue that it should mean something else.
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wow, complete dominance from flash
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Yay Flash won, Liquibet!!!
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If Flash isn't a Bonjwa then no-one is. Technically he's the best Starcraft player of all time.
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congratulations to Flash!
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On September 12 2010 02:35 OneOther wrote:
What do you mean you can't apply "Bonjwa" to Flash anymore? He defines Bonjwa in every shape and form. When I watch Flash play, the "feeling" I get is like none other. It's quite amazing. He reads his opponents many levels deeper than anyone could, his mechanics are near perfection, and he's just an incredibly smart player as well.
"Bonjwa" was made for Flash and I don't know who you are to argue that it should mean something else.
Wasn't the term bonjwa coined under Savior? How can Bonjwa be made for Flash when he wasn't what people called him last time?
Yes, hes the most dominant guy right now, and he rightfully has earned the term Bonjwa by beating everyone else out there but Savior do retain the original position of the Bonjwa during his time. Its not like people started calling Flash Bonjwa first, the term already started being used when Savior is practically dominating everyone during his time. You can't deny that Savior was also a Bonjwa during his prime, and you also can't deny Nada was a Bonjwa during his time.
I'm not trying to undermine Flash's position as a Bonjwa right now. But to state something like that term was made for Flash seems abit too over blown, don't you think?
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United States10774 Posts
On September 12 2010 02:43 Invictus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 02:35 OneOther wrote:
What do you mean you can't apply "Bonjwa" to Flash anymore? He defines Bonjwa in every shape and form. When I watch Flash play, the "feeling" I get is like none other. It's quite amazing. He reads his opponents many levels deeper than anyone could, his mechanics are near perfection, and he's just an incredibly smart player as well.
"Bonjwa" was made for Flash and I don't know who you are to argue that it should mean something else. Wasn't the term bonjwa coined under Savior? How can Bonjwa be made for Flash when he wasn't what people called him last time? Yes, hes the most dominant guy right now, and he rightfully has earned the term Bonjwa by beating everyone else out there but Savior do retain the original position of the Bonjwa during his time. Its not like people started calling Flash Bonjwa first, the term already started being used when Savior is practically dominating everyone during his time. You can't deny that Savior was also a Bonjwa during his prime, and you also can't deny Nada was a Bonjwa during his time. I'm not trying to undermine Flash's position as a Bonjwa right now. But to state something like that term was made for Flash seems abit too over blown, don't you think?
Oh I definitely didn't mean it literally. I am saying Flash perfectly defines a Bonjwa in every way - dominance, charisma, fanbase, rivalry, and etc. Of course the term wasn't created just for him. I am not sure when exactly it was coined but that's not my point. I am saying he has so many qualities of the "best player" aura that it's like the term was made for him.
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maybe he means flash fits the title moreso than savior ever did even though the title was originally designated for savior
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On September 12 2010 02:35 OneOther wrote:
What do you mean you can't apply "Bonjwa" to Flash anymore? He defines Bonjwa in every shape and form. When I watch Flash play, the "feeling" I get is like none other. It's quite amazing. He reads his opponents many levels deeper than anyone could, his mechanics are near perfection, and he's just an incredibly smart player as well.
"Bonjwa" was made for Flash and I don't know who you are to argue that it should mean something else.
I'm saying call Flash something better man. Bonjwa is a subjective term anyway and conversely, who are you to argue what it means in the first place? There is no steadfast written rule what defines it. To me, it's applicable to the older generation. Under my thought, both Flash and JD deserve something better than bonjwa status.
Let's seriously think of a new name that puts him above someone else. Like you pointed out, what he did (and JD to a lesser extent) is unprecedented. Why would you call a Ferrari Enzo an Aston Martin?
By the way, "Bonjwa" was made for Savior. I'm not sure where I read that, but it was somewhere here on TL.
edit at below:
Why aren't you reading? All I'm saying is that I get a different feeling of dominance. No doubt that Flash's reign is more powerful than Savior's wet dream ever hoped to be. I just feel like there are people around Flash who can still challenge him. The whole level of Broodwar has risen. This is a purely visceral feeling, no amount of stats is going to change that. Nevertheless, what Flash did is crazy beyond standards, even I admit that.
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On September 12 2010 02:00 darkmetal505 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 01:03 KristianJS wrote:On September 12 2010 00:47 darkmetal505 wrote:On September 12 2010 00:35 Musoeun wrote:
It still remains that Flash has beaten Jaedong the last four consecutive BoX they've played, three of them finals. I don't know if you count that as "helplessness", but it's beyond insanely impressive. Then the word isn't really applicable. The term was made for Savior and so Flash should be judged against that. Savior was not bonjwa because he had crazy good records, it was because no matter what opponents did, Savior just did not lose. You went in thinking, "jeeeez, who the hell can beat this guy." Come on, are you trying to tell us that you didn't think the same of Flash this last year? People have thrown everything at him (remember Winner's League Final for example?) and he still found a way to win. There's not been a single game Flash has played for like the last year where he hasn't been the huge favourite, with the exception of JD. Now that exception is removed. Honestly if you didn't think stuff like "who the hell can beat this guy?" after games like his semifinal against Fantasy or whatever then you're seriously in a very tiny minority. I guess my interpretation of the dominance is different from the majority then. I judge players mostly on my gut feeling. When I looked at Savior, I kept thinking "even if his opponent practiced 24 hours a day and Savior didn't practice at all, there is still no chance they would win." That's what I attribute the word Bonjwa to. I got really close to that feeling for Bisu after he beat Savior, but I'm sorry that I've never completely felt that with Flash. I can honestly say, without any bias, that with good preparation, players like Jaedong, Effort, and Fantasy still have he ability to take a win over Flash in a BoX. This just based on the quality of the games and not the results. Just like I believe that players like Flash, Bisu, and Stork have the ability to beat Jaedong in a BoX. If anything, the games between Fantasy and Flash showed to me that there are people who can dance at the top. Out of the past 3 finals between Flash and Jaedong, the first one was the only one where I felt Flash's dominance and Jaedong had no idea what to do. These past two just didn't feel like it showed the true skill of either player because of factors in game. Right now, I can't honestly look in your face and say that Flash will roflpwn Jaedong every time they meet from henceforth. The reason I say this is, again, is because Broodwar has evolved into a machine that spits out these cookie cutter monsters. The dominance of these players is not akin to the dominance of the Four Kings. It's just a different feeling. The time period to make the next Bonjwa died with Bisu and it's too bad he couldn't. No doubt Flash (and he's fucking amazing) has the crown right now, but it's not the same, and thus I feel like the word Bonjwa just doesn't fit.
tl;dr
So another CJ/Savior fan denies that anyone can be as dominant as him?
Seriously, back to back to back dual finals, 4 golds and two silvers, WL champion & MVP, PL champion & MVP, all in under a year. Consider the fact that only one person won dual finals before (Nada, 2002 - and back then there was a rather long wait between finals giving him far more time to prepare), no one has won the triple-crown (OSL, MSL, PL), no one made back to back semis (let alone both finals 3 times straight), with a near 80% win rate, including Savior-esque trashing of Protoss, and being the second coming of oov in TvT/TvZ. And when someone actually beats him, it feels like that guy jumped through (burning) hoops (made of poisonous snakes) of (agonzing) pain and played such an abusive game (that it's close to illegal in Mexico) in order to not fail (and die horribly).
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shit jaedong... good job flash i guess
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Flash is the bonjwa. Is there really anyone who doesn't think so?
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The problem with reserving bonjwa for savior (and yes it was made for him, people called first Julyzerg "Bonjwa" but then transferred it to Ma Jaeyoon (making it Ma Bonjwa, one of Savior's many nicknames)) is that savior is now more remembered as the "prison bonjwa" than anything else. IMHO it's healthier for e-sports to take that crown and give it to Flash... maybe as the "Last Bonjwa" or something like that.
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EPT
