EPT[SPL] Grand Final: KT Rolster vs SK Telecom T1 - Page 268
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disciple
9070 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Divine[aX]
Canada161 Posts
Glad KT won though ! | ||
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JL13
United States1384 Posts
I'm curious though as the SKT1 coach... would you have tried to counter KT's strategy of using Hoejja as just fodder for fantasy and send Hyuk set 5 (in a ZvZ nonetheless)? That way, if you predict correctly that KT will save Flash, you allow Fantasy to play against Flash in set 6? That was my thinking at least. Sure it's lose and go home (I need to send Fantasy now). But I guess that was all mind games. Does KT send Flash to end the series now or later? Anyway, congrats to KT ! | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On August 08 2010 05:50 darktreb wrote: A very well designed build can appear to be a "blind counter" to many of the things your opponent can do. It's true that there are builds that Bisu could have done that would have countered Stats' 1 Gate Nexus but Stats did his homework and deemed them unlikely. Are you agreeing with me? I don't even understand what kind of point you're trying to make... Stats predicted Bisu's build and countered it. It didn't appear to be a blind counter, it was a blind counter. It would stop being a blind counter if a. stats scouted it or b. stats paid someone in the skt house to tell him bisu's build. Then it was just a question of having the Dragoons in position for the DT - I'm sure if it hadn't come by the time the Obs was out he would have transitioned to defending other openings as well Why are you explaining this to me? Yes, his very fast robo and expansion put him a huge lead and all he had to do was not fuck it up completely, that was my first post. I didn't say Stats didn't have a back up plan, ofc he would react to whatever he saw his opponent do; it's not like he was gonna give up if bisu didn't go dt's. The point was that it's not correct to say Stats dominated Bisu; Stats happened to get a massive advantage for free, and there was nothing bisu could do about it | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On August 08 2010 04:14 dukethegold wrote: Good series, well played. Except for Canata's strategy. I don't want to start hating on him, especially since it probably got Boxer/Oov seal of approval, but that strategy was made to be flamed at. The worst part wasn't the cheese, it was his follow up. 1st rax scouted, let's making two more proxy rax! I think he may have panicked. Well, KT, you deserved your victory. Well played. I only have two regrets about this night: Bisu being too predictable and we never got to see Flash v.s. Fantasy. I wanna see the new anti-Flash build! It was a cheesy all-in (and yes, I sensed boxer there as well), the reason he attempted the other raxes (after the first one was scouted) was because that's all he could do. If he attempted to switch to standard play after that opening and cutting so many scvs, he would have been dead anyway. The only way to attempt to follow up that failed proxy rax is with more of them and hope to overwhelm the toss with too many marines before he can macro up. And even if that strategy had worked it would have been hella gay in the finals, though I'm sure SKT fans would be singing a different tune about it. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:37 TwoToneTerran wrote: Predicting your opponent's play is quite possibly the most important aspect of dominating them. Really I always thought the most important aspect of dominating an opponent is to play better than them >.> | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:38 n.DieJokes wrote: Really I always thought the most important aspect of dominating an opponent is to play better than them >.> So Flash's OSL finals win against Stork was completely illegitimate because Flash dominated Stork by winning the games before the game even started? How in the hell is Stats build order win over Bisu "blind" in any way if it was completely predicted beforehand? Was Stork's win over Best on Medusa illegitimate because Stork and his other Protoss friends knew that SKT1 Protoss players always used this one specific build on that map? Playing predictable is playing bad. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:38 n.DieJokes wrote: Really I always thought the most important aspect of dominating an opponent is to play better than them >.> Quite possibly the most important aspect of playing better than someone is predicting their play. | ||
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Nal_rAwr
United States2611 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:38 n.DieJokes wrote: Really I always thought the most important aspect of dominating an opponent is to play better than them >.> and predicting their play and preparing with a nice build order that is very flexible and advantageous is the first step towards dominating them in the actual game? | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:55 koreasilver wrote: So Flash's OSL finals win against Stork was completely illegitimate because Flash dominated Stork by winning the games before the game even started? How in the hell is Stats build order win over Bisu "blind" in any way if it was completely predicted beforehand? Where are you getting this stuff from? A win is a win, I said before that it was good planning and strategy ect. I didn't say it was illegitimate or that Stats didnt deserve his win or all that crap other people say when they're mad a player they like lost. I'm saying it wasn't a domination, you can't watch that game and then say Stats is a better pvp player than bisu or bisu sucks at pvp or that Stats pvp is gosu to the max. Even if all those things are true, you can't draw any of those conclusions from that game and in my eyes it's not a domination if you didn't demonstrate superior ability. Besides it's not like Bisu goes dt every game on polaris, of his four games on the map he's done it twice. Gotta love the 50/50 certainty Was Stork's win over Best on Medusa illegitimate because Stork and his other Protoss friends knew that SKT1 Protoss players always used this one specific build on that map? Playing predictable is playing bad. I explained why it's blind above but allow me to clarify. He did not know what build Bisu was going to do, he hoped and guessed it would be dt's but he never knew it was dt's until they ran into his dragoons. Do you see? Blind because he didn't see it? That makes it a blind counter. No one could be certain what build bisu was going to do until he did it. Yes, storks win over bisu on medusa was a blind counter because he did had not seen bisu's build. That is the definition of blind. This would be true even if Bisu had played a hundred games on polaris and dt'd everyone of them (allow that would be undefendably stupid), but that wasn't even the case because out of four games he dt'd twice | ||
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Sea.JustGod
400 Posts
GG !! G Champion!!! | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On August 08 2010 05:55 koreasilver wrote: SKT1 players have this issue of being really predictable sometimes because of how distinct their playstyles can be. Another good example of this Protoss fuckery is the Stork vs Best bo5 back when Best was going on his PvP rampage. Stork studied with a bunch of other Protoss players and just wrecked Best in Medusa because it was so well known that SKT1 Protoss players always did this one build on that map. Likewise, Bisu always used this build on this map for this matchup so Stats was able to fuck him up completely with builds. There has to be some level of unpredictability if you don't want to play with an automatic disadvantage, especially in mirror matchups. I like it when people say Bisu always uses DT Forge expo on PH, because he's actually only used it twice on that map. Stats' Core-expo was not necessarily designed to kill Bisu's DT Forge Expo, but he did prepare well by blocking his choke. Even in this slight BO loss, Bisu still won similar games like it (Pure vs Bisu part 2). Stats' game-winning prepared risk was that fast third at 1 because Stats knew that Bisu didn't have any sort of intel at all, and it paid off immensely. I don't think Bisu will let such a risky maneuver succeed ever again and he'll scout much better w/ his DTs from now on. Also I want Kingdom back as Protoss Coach :\ | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On August 08 2010 08:12 Nal_rAwr wrote: and predicting their play and preparing with a nice build order that is very flexible and advantageous is the first step towards dominating them in the actual game? Thats the first step towards winning, and by definition that would be dominating the game but I don't think people are using it to mean exerting control over the game. They're using it to say that Stats played a better game and thats simply not what happened. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:33 n.DieJokes wrote: Are you agreeing with me? I don't even understand what kind of point you're trying to make... Stats predicted Bisu's build and countered it. It didn't appear to be a blind counter, it was a blind counter. It would stop being a blind counter if a. stats scouted it or b. stats paid someone in the skt house to tell him bisu's build. Ehhh well its not like Core-expo w/ fast obs is some totally non-standard build on that map. Blind counter yes, but not anything like DT vs 4 gate. It's basically more Templar vs a stronger economy in the case of DT-Forge Expo vs Core-expo. I didn't like how Bisu did 2 gate before expo, since it delayed the expo and the additional DT just didn't do much at all. He just needs to scout better w/ the DT and he should be fine. On note about DT-Forge Expo, I believe Bisu invented this build himself, the first time the build being used back in the OSL Prelims? | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
In both cases Stats and Violet prepared great builds and were one step ahead of Bisu. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On August 08 2010 08:36 ArvickHero wrote: I like it when people say Bisu always uses DT Forge expo on PH, because he's actually only used it twice on that map. Stats' Core-expo was not necessarily designed to kill Bisu's DT Forge Expo, but he did prepare well by blocking his choke. Even in this slight BO loss, Bisu still won similar games like it (Pure vs Bisu part 2). Stats' game-winning prepared risk was that fast third at 1 because Stats knew that Bisu didn't have any sort of intel at all, and it paid off immensely. I don't think Bisu will let such a risky maneuver succeed ever again and he'll scout much better w/ his DTs from now on. Also I want Kingdom back as Protoss Coach :\ In the pure vs bisu games didn't they both get range the first game and both delay range the second? In this game stats skipped it and bisu got it, I think that was what gave him such a large edge | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On August 08 2010 08:58 n.DieJokes wrote: In the pure vs bisu games didn't they both get range the first game and both delay range the second? In this game stats skipped it and bisu got it, I think that was what gave him such a large edge I don't even know why Bisu would get range when he's going DT-Forge-Expo, it seems illogical to me. If he did get the range upgrade vs Stats, then that+second gate and second DT really delayed his expo. | ||
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