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[MSL] Round of 16 - Day 2 - Page 41

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7596 Posts
July 24 2010 21:49 GMT
#801
For anyone having problems finding or making the MSL Round 2 Torrents work, here's a Youtube link to the Jaedong VS Kal Game1.

Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11393 Posts
July 24 2010 21:57 GMT
#802
On July 25 2010 06:45 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).

From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.

Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.

By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.

Basically it went:

Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.

Good summary overall. But one important part that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Jaedong made a LOT of zerglings early-mid game instead of pumping drones. First 5 zerglings did some damage, but the next 20 or so, essentially none. Yeah, he killed some probes and started off good, but I wouldn't say that Jaedong was ahead going into the mid-game. His fourth/fifth hatcheries were really late, and his drone count was pretty low until he got the contain set-up. This is a big deal in ZvP as most people know. Thus, Kal was able to win the battles decisively and take control of the center mid-game - on top of Jaedong's questionable attacks/micro. It was really Kal's game to lose, in my opinion.

Strategically, he was ahead of Kal though then. Kal clearly thought JD was going to go mutas so he starts adding lots of extra cannons near nat nex and main though he did end up canceling one later on while also continuing to make sairs. Then, lurkers which manage to snipe forge etc. Also, he was able to get away with never making sunks at third or nat which helped mitigate the fact that his drone count was so low after all those zerglings.

Kal had some quick thinking walling off with that citadel though which really saved him or he prob would have died to all those zerglings then.
Moderator。◕‿◕。
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
July 24 2010 22:06 GMT
#803
On July 25 2010 06:57 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 06:45 OneOther wrote:
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).

From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.

Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.

By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.

Basically it went:

Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.

Good summary overall. But one important part that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Jaedong made a LOT of zerglings early-mid game instead of pumping drones. First 5 zerglings did some damage, but the next 20 or so, essentially none. Yeah, he killed some probes and started off good, but I wouldn't say that Jaedong was ahead going into the mid-game. His fourth/fifth hatcheries were really late, and his drone count was pretty low until he got the contain set-up. This is a big deal in ZvP as most people know. Thus, Kal was able to win the battles decisively and take control of the center mid-game - on top of Jaedong's questionable attacks/micro. It was really Kal's game to lose, in my opinion.

Strategically, he was ahead of Kal though then. Kal clearly thought JD was going to go mutas so he starts adding lots of extra cannons near nat nex and main though he did end up canceling one later on while also continuing to make sairs. Then, lurkers which manage to snipe forge etc. Also, he was able to get away with never making sunks at third or nat which helped mitigate the fact that his drone count was so low after all those zerglings.

Kal had some quick thinking walling off with that citadel though which really saved him or he prob would have died to all those zerglings then.

Hmm yeah that's a good point, even though I think Kal was at least even to Jaedong at that point because it's a bigger deal for Zerg to skip a large number of drones going into the mid-game than it is for Protoss to build 4-5 extra cannons. Losing forge and so on also hurts, but I could tell that they Kal was on a relatively good economic footing by comparing their army sizes mid-game.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 24 2010 22:11 GMT
#804
Oh poor Kal, I actually thought he was going to win for a few minutes when he fought a couple battles and came out so tremendously ahead in troop count.
anch
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States5457 Posts
July 24 2010 22:18 GMT
#805
KT all kill and STX all wiped.
dani_caliKorea
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
730 Posts
July 24 2010 22:47 GMT
#806
Obviously Kal isnt gonna advance, but is his form back? Ready for playoffs? (I havent seen the games)
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
July 24 2010 23:45 GMT
#807
Kal wasn't going to beat Jaedong that game.


Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health.

He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras.

Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out.

Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push.


Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game.
We decide our own destiny
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
July 25 2010 01:14 GMT
#808
On July 25 2010 04:49 jalstar wrote:
If the players who won on Day 1 advance we get:

(T)Flash vs (P)Stats
(T)Fantasy vs (T)Light

(Z)EffOrt vs (T)Sea
(Z)Jaedong vs (T)fOrGG

So possibly 3 KT players in Ro8.

Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)


Look at it this way.

With this bracket we can avoid a mirror final. In your scenario it's possible to have a ZvZ or TvT final... and nobody wants to see that.

This way we get Effort or JD vs Flash or Fantasy in the finals which is epic no matter what.
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10346 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 01:39:29
July 25 2010 01:36 GMT
#809
Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
HeadhunteR
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Argentina1258 Posts
July 25 2010 02:23 GMT
#810
kal had no chance at all there was only 1 or 2 minutes where he had something the rest was a delayed gg
in The Kong line forever
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
July 25 2010 05:29 GMT
#811
On July 25 2010 10:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal


Did you miss the part where Kal crushed Jaedong successive times in every big army engagement until the very end? It may have been due to a lack of overall economy but Kal had clearly outdone Jaedong in those fights and had all the options in the world. He just chose the worst one to respond to a hidden fourth.
Remember Violet.
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
July 25 2010 07:28 GMT
#812
On July 25 2010 10:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal


Somehow even Jaedong himself said that he was in a bad position in that game and what helped him win was the fact that Kal over-extended himself.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 07:56:13
July 25 2010 07:48 GMT
#813
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tien wrote:
Kal wasn't going to beat Jaedong that game.


Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health.

He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras.

Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out.

Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push.


Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game.

i completely disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/jon747#p/u/6/TJjOARee1rU

Go to 17:45 - 19:00 and watch it again. Three bases vs three bases, with JD's fourth just finished at 3 oclock. Kal's army is OVERWHELMINGLY bigger than JD's. He doesn't even need storms, really. 3 oclock was a free-kill and the center was his to hold. After some more viewings, I actually think Kal could have finished JD off right there and then. Then what does Kal do? Pulls back, leaves 3 oclock alone, sends a group of army to 7, and gives up the center. It was 130 population vs 85. Kal had so many options here. And he chose the worst one possible that let the game slip from his hands. PvZ is all about using an army advantage at a specific timing to solidify your victory. Kal's army was maximized at that point because his main/natural had just saturated, he was pumping from three bases for a while. This is when you must cripple or kill the Zerg, not take a base far away and extend yourself. Zerg can use his upgrade/effeciency in units to come back. Perfect example of this case, although a lot more extreme:

cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
July 25 2010 07:55 GMT
#814
Kal somehow managed to choke away the game again.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Yxes2211
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1587 Posts
July 25 2010 08:03 GMT
#815
On July 25 2010 16:48 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tien wrote:
Kal wasn't going to beat Jaedong that game.


Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health.

He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras.

Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out.

Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push.


Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game.

i completely disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/jon747#p/u/6/TJjOARee1rU

Go to 17:45 - 19:00 and watch it again. Three bases vs three bases, with JD's fourth just finished at 3 oclock. Kal's army is OVERWHELMINGLY bigger than JD's. He doesn't even need storms, really. 3 oclock was a free-kill and the center was his to hold. After some more viewings, I actually think Kal could have finished JD off right there and then. Then what does Kal do? Pulls back, leaves 3 oclock alone, sends a group of army to 7, and gives up the center. It was 130 population vs 85. Kal had so many options here. And he chose the worst one possible that let the game slip from his hands. PvZ is all about using an army advantage at a specific timing to solidify your victory. Kal's army was maximized at that point because his main/natural had just saturated, he was pumping from three bases for a while. This is when you must cripple or kill the Zerg, not take a base far away and extend yourself. Zerg can use his upgrade/effeciency in units to come back. Perfect example of this case, although a lot more extreme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4TLz2qRQg4


Yah no... Even Jaedong said that he thought Kal was going to win after he lost 9 o'clock. JD said he was lucky that 3 wasn't scouted and that Kal didn't push, (given he said he was also throwing forces at Kal to bide time so it wasn't ALL luck).

I mean if the victor says he had a genuine chance ot lose at some point, its true.
Jaedong and Baby
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 14:46:53
July 25 2010 14:39 GMT
#816
On July 25 2010 16:48 OneOther wrote:
i completely disagree.


You are correct if Kal went to the 3 oclock expo and wiped it out, he would have a very strong chance to close the game out. But he didn't scout it and that's part of starcraft, he's expecting Jaedong to expo at 11, not 3.


But I disagree about him being able to push through Jaedong's defences.


Kal's army at that point was 17 dragoons and 5 low energy templar and THREE zealots. No archons

Vs 6 lurkers, 24 lings, 7-8 hydras.


Sure the dragoons may be able to push through the lurkers, but Jaedong had cracklings swarming through from his hatcheries, and would be able to push Kal back. At 17:06, you saw 12 lings take out 6 / 13 dragoons. Dragoons with no armor upgrade, no archons and practically no zealots will melt under constant crackling reinforcements.



You see Kal's first person view. His main AND natural was completely tapped out. He wouldn't have been able to match Jaedong's economy and push into Jaedong's main or 12 expo. He had no reinforcements streaming out of 9 gates.

If Kal didn't spend money expoing at 7, that would have given him at best 1 more group of troops. And if he can't do that final allin push, it's 3 mining bases vs 1.


At best, they would have traded armies. And this would have left Jaedong at the advantage because of their current economies.


This would leave Kal overextended. Not being able to protect his new expo at 8, and not being able to push further.
We decide our own destiny
dtnmang
Profile Joined April 2010
Vietnam752 Posts
July 25 2010 14:51 GMT
#817
Well, this is the closest Kal could get anyway.
KT Roflster - the lulziest team of Proleague.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 18:45:21
July 25 2010 18:02 GMT
#818
@Tien: He would be able to reinforce with 10 zealots coming in if he didn't waste 1000 minerals at 7 oclock. If he did, Jaedong is dead meat. All Kal needed to do was make zealots and wait for those six templars to recharge, and either attack/expo at 3 oclock or just kill JD right there. Also, Kal's dragoon army seems to be around 20 or a little bit more. Zealots are easy to reinforce, and that's why I am saying it was Kal's game to lose. He made the worst split second decision at the worst time and I don't know why. Yes I know he ran out of main/nat (I think I explain why this makes that timing even more important), that's why he needed to kill or cripple the Zerg at that point. He did neither. Even Jaedong said he thought he had lost. I am simply arguing it was Kal's game to lose. Kal was going to beat JD, until he screwed up. Yes, that's part of StarCraft, but you are wrong to argue "Kal wasn't going to beat JD that game."

@raga: There's a lot of things you should be careful about in StarCraft, but how you use your money just as two of three bases deplete is not one of them. Unfortunately the decision Kal made had the biggest risk out of all the options.
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 20:37:22
July 25 2010 18:13 GMT
#819
On July 26 2010 03:02 OneOther wrote:
@Tien: He would be able to reinforce with 10 zealots coming in if he didn't waste 1000 minerals at 7 oclock. If he did, Jaedong is dead meat. All Kal needed to do was make zealots and wait for those six templars to recharge, and either attack/expo at 3 oclock or just kill JD right there. Also, Kal's dragoon army seems to be around 20 or a little bit more. Zealots are easy to reinforce, and that's why I am saying it was Kal's game to lose. He made the worst split second decision at the worst time and I don't know why. Yes I know he ran out of main/nat (I think I explain why this makes that timing even more important), that's why he needed to kill or cripple the Zerg at that point. He did neither. Even Jaedong said he thought he had lost. I am simply arguing it was Kal's game to lose. Kal was going to beat JD, until he screwed up. Yes, that's part of StarCraft, but you are wrong to argue "Kal wasn't going to beat JD that game."


Well Kal was mineing out and if by a chance his push with reinforcements failed he was going to meet the same end with only 1 base vs Jaedong . He probably didn't want to risk it .... Anyways the game was so fast paced that i don't blame Kal for not being able to muster up the finishing blow . Jaedong 's macro was really intence . He send non-stop armies to break Kal's ball of units and eventually overpowered him . Looking at the vod both players had phenomenal macro .
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
July 25 2010 18:53 GMT
#820
It is a very risky move on Kals part to forgo expanding and bank everything on that push between 17-19. And maybe Kal didnt want to expand to 3 because he was afraid Jaedong would harass it tơ easily.


You do realize that Kal has to work with whatever information he has, while we are theory crafting with 20 20 hindsight.


If he banks everything on a push, that means for the next 2 minutes he has to forgo any expansion plans and continue to pump troops from 1 mining base to feed the push.


If the push fails, Kal knows he wont be able to regain map control and expand at the same time.


Yes there are things Kal could have done to close the game out, but same goes for JAedong. If Jaedong could have seen Kal rerouting his forces at 6, he could have pulled all his forces and trap Kal.


All im saying is that, with what Kal had between 17-19, there was no way he was going to push all the way into Jaedongs main.
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