[MSL] Round of 16 - Day 2 - Page 41
Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
| ||
![]()
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On July 25 2010 06:45 OneOther wrote: Good summary overall. But one important part that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Jaedong made a LOT of zerglings early-mid game instead of pumping drones. First 5 zerglings did some damage, but the next 20 or so, essentially none. Yeah, he killed some probes and started off good, but I wouldn't say that Jaedong was ahead going into the mid-game. His fourth/fifth hatcheries were really late, and his drone count was pretty low until he got the contain set-up. This is a big deal in ZvP as most people know. Thus, Kal was able to win the battles decisively and take control of the center mid-game - on top of Jaedong's questionable attacks/micro. It was really Kal's game to lose, in my opinion. Strategically, he was ahead of Kal though then. Kal clearly thought JD was going to go mutas so he starts adding lots of extra cannons near nat nex and main though he did end up canceling one later on while also continuing to make sairs. Then, lurkers which manage to snipe forge etc. Also, he was able to get away with never making sunks at third or nat which helped mitigate the fact that his drone count was so low after all those zerglings. Kal had some quick thinking walling off with that citadel though which really saved him or he prob would have died to all those zerglings then. | ||
![]()
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On July 25 2010 06:57 Harem wrote: Strategically, he was ahead of Kal though then. Kal clearly thought JD was going to go mutas so he starts adding lots of extra cannons near nat nex and main though he did end up canceling one later on while also continuing to make sairs. Then, lurkers which manage to snipe forge etc. Also, he was able to get away with never making sunks at third or nat which helped mitigate the fact that his drone count was so low after all those zerglings. Kal had some quick thinking walling off with that citadel though which really saved him or he prob would have died to all those zerglings then. Hmm yeah that's a good point, even though I think Kal was at least even to Jaedong at that point because it's a bigger deal for Zerg to skip a large number of drones going into the mid-game than it is for Protoss to build 4-5 extra cannons. Losing forge and so on also hurts, but I could tell that they Kal was on a relatively good economic footing by comparing their army sizes mid-game. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
| ||
anch
United States5457 Posts
| ||
dani_caliKorea
730 Posts
| ||
Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health. He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras. Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out. Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push. Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game. | ||
On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On July 25 2010 04:49 jalstar wrote: If the players who won on Day 1 advance we get: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() So possibly 3 KT players in Ro8. Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please) Look at it this way. With this bracket we can avoid a mirror final. In your scenario it's possible to have a ZvZ or TvT final... and nobody wants to see that. This way we get Effort or JD vs Flash or Fantasy in the finals which is epic no matter what. | ||
MountainDewJunkie
United States10340 Posts
![]() | ||
HeadhunteR
Argentina1258 Posts
| ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On July 25 2010 10:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal ![]() Did you miss the part where Kal crushed Jaedong successive times in every big army engagement until the very end? It may have been due to a lack of overall economy but Kal had clearly outdone Jaedong in those fights and had all the options in the world. He just chose the worst one to respond to a hidden fourth. | ||
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On July 25 2010 10:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal ![]() Somehow even Jaedong himself said that he was in a bad position in that game and what helped him win was the fact that Kal over-extended himself. | ||
![]()
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tien wrote: Kal wasn't going to beat Jaedong that game. Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health. He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras. Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out. Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push. Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game. i completely disagree. http://www.youtube.com/jon747#p/u/6/TJjOARee1rU Go to 17:45 - 19:00 and watch it again. Three bases vs three bases, with JD's fourth just finished at 3 oclock. Kal's army is OVERWHELMINGLY bigger than JD's. He doesn't even need storms, really. 3 oclock was a free-kill and the center was his to hold. After some more viewings, I actually think Kal could have finished JD off right there and then. Then what does Kal do? Pulls back, leaves 3 oclock alone, sends a group of army to 7, and gives up the center. It was 130 population vs 85. Kal had so many options here. And he chose the worst one possible that let the game slip from his hands. PvZ is all about using an army advantage at a specific timing to solidify your victory. Kal's army was maximized at that point because his main/natural had just saturated, he was pumping from three bases for a while. This is when you must cripple or kill the Zerg, not take a base far away and extend yourself. Zerg can use his upgrade/effeciency in units to come back. Perfect example of this case, although a lot more extreme: | ||
cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
| ||
Yxes2211
United States1587 Posts
On July 25 2010 16:48 OneOther wrote: i completely disagree. http://www.youtube.com/jon747#p/u/6/TJjOARee1rU Go to 17:45 - 19:00 and watch it again. Three bases vs three bases, with JD's fourth just finished at 3 oclock. Kal's army is OVERWHELMINGLY bigger than JD's. He doesn't even need storms, really. 3 oclock was a free-kill and the center was his to hold. After some more viewings, I actually think Kal could have finished JD off right there and then. Then what does Kal do? Pulls back, leaves 3 oclock alone, sends a group of army to 7, and gives up the center. It was 130 population vs 85. Kal had so many options here. And he chose the worst one possible that let the game slip from his hands. PvZ is all about using an army advantage at a specific timing to solidify your victory. Kal's army was maximized at that point because his main/natural had just saturated, he was pumping from three bases for a while. This is when you must cripple or kill the Zerg, not take a base far away and extend yourself. Zerg can use his upgrade/effeciency in units to come back. Perfect example of this case, although a lot more extreme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4TLz2qRQg4 Yah no... Even Jaedong said that he thought Kal was going to win after he lost 9 o'clock. JD said he was lucky that 3 wasn't scouted and that Kal didn't push, (given he said he was also throwing forces at Kal to bide time so it wasn't ALL luck). I mean if the victor says he had a genuine chance ot lose at some point, its true. | ||
Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On July 25 2010 16:48 OneOther wrote: i completely disagree. You are correct if Kal went to the 3 oclock expo and wiped it out, he would have a very strong chance to close the game out. But he didn't scout it and that's part of starcraft, he's expecting Jaedong to expo at 11, not 3. But I disagree about him being able to push through Jaedong's defences. Kal's army at that point was 17 dragoons and 5 low energy templar and THREE zealots. No archons Vs 6 lurkers, 24 lings, 7-8 hydras. Sure the dragoons may be able to push through the lurkers, but Jaedong had cracklings swarming through from his hatcheries, and would be able to push Kal back. At 17:06, you saw 12 lings take out 6 / 13 dragoons. Dragoons with no armor upgrade, no archons and practically no zealots will melt under constant crackling reinforcements. You see Kal's first person view. His main AND natural was completely tapped out. He wouldn't have been able to match Jaedong's economy and push into Jaedong's main or 12 expo. He had no reinforcements streaming out of 9 gates. If Kal didn't spend money expoing at 7, that would have given him at best 1 more group of troops. And if he can't do that final allin push, it's 3 mining bases vs 1. At best, they would have traded armies. And this would have left Jaedong at the advantage because of their current economies. This would leave Kal overextended. Not being able to protect his new expo at 8, and not being able to push further. | ||
dtnmang
Vietnam752 Posts
| ||
![]()
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
@raga: There's a lot of things you should be careful about in StarCraft, but how you use your money just as two of three bases deplete is not one of them. Unfortunately the decision Kal made had the biggest risk out of all the options. | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On July 26 2010 03:02 OneOther wrote: @Tien: He would be able to reinforce with 10 zealots coming in if he didn't waste 1000 minerals at 7 oclock. If he did, Jaedong is dead meat. All Kal needed to do was make zealots and wait for those six templars to recharge, and either attack/expo at 3 oclock or just kill JD right there. Also, Kal's dragoon army seems to be around 20 or a little bit more. Zealots are easy to reinforce, and that's why I am saying it was Kal's game to lose. He made the worst split second decision at the worst time and I don't know why. Yes I know he ran out of main/nat (I think I explain why this makes that timing even more important), that's why he needed to kill or cripple the Zerg at that point. He did neither. Even Jaedong said he thought he had lost. I am simply arguing it was Kal's game to lose. Kal was going to beat JD, until he screwed up. Yes, that's part of StarCraft, but you are wrong to argue "Kal wasn't going to beat JD that game." Well Kal was mineing out and if by a chance his push with reinforcements failed he was going to meet the same end with only 1 base vs Jaedong . He probably didn't want to risk it .... Anyways the game was so fast paced that i don't blame Kal for not being able to muster up the finishing blow . Jaedong 's macro was really intence . He send non-stop armies to break Kal's ball of units and eventually overpowered him . Looking at the vod both players had phenomenal macro . | ||
Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
You do realize that Kal has to work with whatever information he has, while we are theory crafting with 20 20 hindsight. If he banks everything on a push, that means for the next 2 minutes he has to forgo any expansion plans and continue to pump troops from 1 mining base to feed the push. If the push fails, Kal knows he wont be able to regain map control and expand at the same time. Yes there are things Kal could have done to close the game out, but same goes for JAedong. If Jaedong could have seen Kal rerouting his forces at 6, he could have pulled all his forces and trap Kal. All im saying is that, with what Kal had between 17-19, there was no way he was going to push all the way into Jaedongs main. | ||
| ||