EPTCombination of Bo advantage compounded on map architecture on Ruby playing moderately well results in a win. No one in the world was coming back from that.
Amusingly, Flash probably would've won if he spawned at either of the bottom locations.
[SPL] Air Force ACE vs KT Rolster - Page 30
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Combination of Bo advantage compounded on map architecture on Ruby playing moderately well results in a win. No one in the world was coming back from that. Amusingly, Flash probably would've won if he spawned at either of the bottom locations. | ||
|
McDonalds
Liechtenstein2244 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i50.tinypic.com/5a27lu.jpg) | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:34 nayumi wrote: 1. You roll a dice and guess what Flash is gonna do. 2. You either: 2.1 Get it right -> you beat Flash -> You feel like God. 2.2 Get it wrong -> you get owned -> You walk to your teammates and everyone shrugs because it was motherfucking Flash. This applies for non-Jaedong only though. Thats kinda harsh on Ruby though, and the other people who beat him recently. 14CC gave an advantage yes but he still had the mechanics to hold the advantage (especially early game taking the line) and take it to a win. Snow and Hiya both outplayed him too. Fantasy was the only real pure roll of the dice. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:34 nayumi wrote: 1. You roll a dice and guess what Flash is gonna do. 2. You either: 2.1 Get it right -> you beat Flash -> You feel like God. 2.2 Get it wrong -> you get owned -> You walk to your teammates and everyone shrugs because it was motherfucking Flash. This applies for non-Jaedong only though. Honestly while I don't like seeing Flash lose, I love that players are embracing this philosophy. It's really ridiculous when someone tries to beat him straight up and fails. It's like, are you even trying? Taking chances the way his opponents have been is exactly the right way to attack the problem of beating a superior (to everyone but Jaedong) player like Flash. It's cool to see that people are doing this, because it also puts a lot of stress on Flash's game, as the whole "I can't 14cc but if I proxy rax and it gets scouted I lose (see Fantasy game)" dilemma has shown. It's always fun to see the best players tested like this. | ||
|
POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:22 Subwoofermate wrote: Big issue with Flash is that he's completely predictable but a lot of the time still manages to win because he macros better than you and generally makes better decisions most of the time. Its a common theme in nearly all of his TvTs this year; opponent takes massive risk, Flash nearly loses the game but just plays a lot better and then manages to win. Practice isn't going to help Flash. He's very good, probably the very best, at the matchup but he's fallen into the same ditch his TvP was once in. He's just too predictable and the opponent knows if he sees Flash do so and so, he can do whatever and get away with it. Because Ruby can just assume Flash will do the exact same two opening builds over and over if there isn't a proxy. "Practice isn't going to help Flash" Not true. This game we saw that Ruby had a better understanding of the map than Flash did and abused it. Ruby took the grandline and took positional advantage and won with superior dropship count; if Flash knew the importance of the grandline he wouldn't have ceded control of it that easily and allowed ruby the easy 3rd gas. In fact, this insight isn't new, Skyhigh has also used the same strategy(against forgg) and won. If Flash knew, this would've been preventable. Not the first time Flash didn't understand the map enough, as seen from Midas vs Flash in msl qualifiers where midas said the same thing. And I wouldn't say Flash is predictable, he cheeses just the right amount of times to throw opponents off. | ||
|
okum
France5779 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:37 infinity2k9 wrote: Thats kinda harsh on Ruby though, and the other people who beat him recently. 14CC gave an advantage yes but he still had the mechanics to hold the advantage (especially early game taking the line) and take it to a win. Snow and Hiya both outplayed him too. Fantasy was the only real pure roll of the dice. Not saying that Snow didn't play well, but he started off from a huge BO advantage too. Hiya is the only player to beat Flash from an even start recently in Proleague. | ||
|
J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
| ||
|
darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:36 TwoToneTerran wrote: Rofl you guys are making too much of this. Ruby 14cc'd and got an army advantage. He used that to secure the only accessible third gas on the map with a ground army. With a third gas you get dropships, and with that Flash had literally no reasonable way to expand to a gas location. Combination of Bo advantage compounded on map architecture on Ruby playing moderately well results in a win. No one in the world was coming back from that. Amusingly, Flash probably would've won if he spawned at either of the bottom locations. I agree that it isn't a huge deal. Part of Flash's mega streaks lately have been his good luck (obviously skill matters the most but he's had some pretty good luck over the past 8 months), and lately he's gotten some bad draws. However, I think he definitely could have played this game better, even with the disadvantage. Seemed like he had no plan for what to do in the given spawn position situation if he loses out on the middle third gas. I mean, he had a plan (expand downward) but it wasn't exactly a great plan. Personally my theory is that forGG has been playing the bulk of the games on this map (as he's been sent out a lot) but now that Flash has no individual leagues for a month KT has moved him onto all the maps. Yeah I know Flash has played some Grand Line games before but not many TvT's, and a map like Grand Line is so heavily dependent on positions (literally a completely different game based on any of the three possible position combinations) that every bit of experience helps. | ||
|
POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:43 darktreb wrote: I agree that it isn't a huge deal. Part of Flash's mega streaks lately have been his good luck (obviously skill matters the most but he's had some pretty good luck over the past 8 months), and lately he's gotten some bad draws. However, I think he definitely could have played this game better, even with the disadvantage. Seemed like he had no plan for what to do in the given spawn position situation if he loses out on the middle third gas. I mean, he had a plan (expand downward) but it wasn't exactly a great plan. Personally my theory is that forGG has been playing the bulk of the games on this map (as he's been sent out a lot) but now that Flash has no individual leagues for a month KT has moved him onto all the maps. Yeah I know Flash has played some Grand Line games before but not many TvT's, and a map like Grand Line is so heavily dependent on positions (literally a completely different game based on any of the three possible position combinations) that every bit of experience helps. I can say with confidence that your theory is correct. ForGG has been sent out on this map A LOT. | ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2337 Posts
People need to stop making excuses for their heroes. JD is my fav player, and he simply got owned in the MSL finals, no excuses there... just a combination of his poor play and Flash's great play. And I fail to see how Ruby was there to "snipe" Flash, when they had just played the game before and Flash beat him. | ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
| ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:45 foxmeep wrote: If any of you actually watched the game Ruby was hardly at an advantage from his 14cc. Flash had more tanks out and close to an equal number of vultures. Ruby just got the better of Flash in several encounters. THAT is how Ruby got map control, not from his 14 cc. People need to stop making excuses for their heroes. JD is my fav player, and he simply got owned in the MSL finals, no excuses there... just a combination of his poor play and Flash's great play. And I fail to see how Ruby was there to "snipe" Flash, when they had just played the game before and Flash beat him. You are really clueless about TvT. "hey guys 14cc doesn't get more units than fac CC" | ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2337 Posts
You're a blind fanboy. | ||
|
okum
France5779 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:45 foxmeep wrote: Ruby didn't get his second gas for a while and built more factories early on. He had quite a bit more vultures than Flash, or at least was able to reinforce with vultures faster. I think this is why Flash felt that he had to back down closer to his base instead of taking the grand line.If any of you actually watched the game Ruby was hardly at an advantage from his 14cc. Flash had more tanks out and close to an equal number of vultures. Ruby just got the better of Flash in several encounters. THAT is how Ruby got map control, not from his 14 cc. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:45 foxmeep wrote: If any of you actually watched the game Ruby was hardly at an advantage from his 14cc. Flash had more tanks out and close to an equal number of vultures. Ruby just got the better of Flash in several encounters. THAT is how Ruby got map control, not from his 14 cc. People need to stop making excuses for their heroes. JD is my fav player, and he simply got owned in the MSL finals, no excuses there... just a combination of his poor play and Flash's great play. I agree that Ruby wasn't THAT ahead from the 14cc. But I don't think too many excuses are being made (yeah there are a few, but that's natural, for the most part it's been pretty levelheaded discussion) - Flash was definitely outplayed/outplanned this game and losing 4 straight aces (3 straight TvT) is hard to excuse no matter what. He needs to step up but at the same time I don't think anyone's that worried about him overall. Funny thing is Flash absolutely CRUSHED Ruby a month ago on the MP/Grand Line combination and they just met on them again. This time was a very different story though. Impressive stuff by Ruby. | ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
You think 14cc gets equal production to fac CC. I make no qualms about Flash's losses -- I never have and never will. I did not disparage Effort for winning, or Jaedong for Nate, or even Fantasy for the amusing cheese win. But you're absolutely clueless if you think 14cc doesn't get more vults and tanks than fac cc. | ||
|
sixfour
England11062 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:42 J1.au wrote: KT has become too predictable. Every team knows Flash will bet sent out for ace, and they prepare accordingly. Even though Flash probably wants to play every ace, I really feel KT has to start sending other players. It will be better for the team in the long run. This sort of predictability isn't that bad though, basically because it's Flash. The other team needs either someone who can beat him straight up (can probably count on one hand the number of players that can do that with any sort of decent winrate), or have some awesome cheese or other gimmick build planned, and you'd still have a large number of games where it's scouted, Flash defends correctly, or the other player doesn't execute. Wins from that have got to be higher than what you'd get from occasionally sending out Stats etc | ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:30 darktreb wrote: He's a poor bo5 player? Since 2008 he's lost bo5's to the following players: - Jaedong - forGG - Effort Each time he lost a bo5, his opponent was the league winner. And how can you say a guy is "incapable of playing critical matches" when he's won leagues the last two seasons? Simply retarded. ok, well maybe i am way too harsh on him, (dont like him), but still this is what i read in teamliquid article before OSL and MSL , the article is somewhere , but i wasn't able to find it to support my idea, sorry | ||
|
Tufas
Austria2259 Posts
Thank you Yellow, <3 | ||
|
POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
On June 07 2010 20:45 foxmeep wrote: If any of you actually watched the game Ruby was hardly at an advantage from his 14cc. Flash had more tanks out and close to an equal number of vultures. Ruby just got the better of Flash in several encounters. THAT is how Ruby got map control, not from his 14 cc. People need to stop making excuses for their heroes. JD is my fav player, and he simply got owned in the MSL finals, no excuses there... just a combination of his poor play and Flash's great play. And I fail to see how Ruby was there to "snipe" Flash, when they had just played the game before and Flash beat him. Nobody is saying Ruby got map control from the 14cc. And neither can you deny than 14cc vs rax-cc puts Ruby at an advantage. Nobody here is making an excuse for FlaSh's loss either. And you can tell Ruby practiced to snipe FlaSh on this map. If anything, his poor performance in the previous map shows this. His play was far more polished, purposeful and just all round better in the last game. On June 07 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash knew exactly what he had to do. He kept engaging to try to carve out a niche where he could expand to the bottom areas and take a gas -- he was almost successful but it happened too late in the game, where Ruby had 1-2 gases more than him for 10 minutes. The problem with that is Ruby wasn't retarded. He put units on the enormous and endless high ground position (this was part of my map architecture comment). Flash did nothing particularly wrong -- hell his crisis management on Ruby's drops was impeccable. You just can't win a TvT on 2 gases. Flash ceding 12oclock that easily was what cost him. 3rd gas is incredibly important on this map like you mentioned, and letting Ruby secure it and mine it with relatively little interference is a mistake in itself. | ||
| ||
