Answering my bad questions and enduring my hopeless grammar are CJ Entusman #1 - IntoTheWow and the vanguard of the OZ/Jaedong fanbase - Atrioc
1. Both CJ and OZ are struggling with winnersleague this year. Why is that and are you confident that your teams will make it to the playoffs?
Atrioc : To say OZ is struggling is to gloss over the games themselves and just look at win/loss results. Yeah, they lost against KT but took it to a nail biting game 7 with Jaedong vs. Flash, a game that was razor close until Jaedong forgot consume. They won against Stars, and they lost against eSTRO after their Terrans, especially Really, put up some very solid performances and hyvaa got the ZvZ snipe on Jaedong. What doesn't show up in the results is the fact that not only are Jaedong and Hiya still Winner's League powerhouses like last season, but Killer is finally coming into his skin. After being thrust into ace match after ace match, the kid has gained a toughness and ability to play under pressure that is really starting to show through. Watch his shutdown of ZerO in the crucial Game 7 against Stars and his dismantling of an on-fire Upmagic in a long ZvT against eStro and tell me that Killer isn't contributing. CJ, on the other hand, has had players - namely Effort, but also Movie and Iris, quite simply losing games they shouldn't and in a pretty ugly fashion. That is a team that has fallen from grace and does not show signs up being on their way back up.
IntoTheWow : CJ's team is good for Winners League format, but EffOrt has been kind of shaky as of lately and although Movie and sKyHigh are playing better CJ still needs that ACE player to worry the other team and to clean up like he did the past round.
2. What do you think about the opening set and OZ's choice to send out Jaedong first.
Atrioc : Lets all take a moment to reflect on the simple fact that CJ was recently all-killed by Guemchi. Guemchi. Anyone who doesn't see Jaedong bulldozing his way through most of (if not all) the CJ team is grossly overrating his opposition. At the very least, Iris (who is 0-4 vs. the Dong) is a surefire casualty, putting Oz up comfortably at 1-0.
IntoTheWow : Jaedong is obviously the favorite, but he doesn't look as invincible as he looked in the previous round. Jaedong only needs to dodge Neo Tornado, all the other maps are good for Zerg. Since NTornado is played on the 4th set, no matter when JD is played, he will have to play on that map if he has to win everything for this team. This is a double edged advantage. The moment Jaedong goes down, Oz is left with no good Zergs and they will have to start going all in or with cheese builds as they usually do.
3. Make your predictions. Will the match be a WL 2009 Grand Finals deja vu?
Atrioc : Is Rush Hour 3 still in the map pool? No? Then this series will only be similar in that Jaedong will rape CJ in the first three sets and different in that he will continue to do so in the fourth. Though, considering that Neo Tornado is a similar 63.9% TvZ, if Jaedong does get sniped in the fourth set, Oz has the far more reliable Killer and HiyA (rather than Spear and Young like last time) to mop up.
IntoTheWow : Yeah, except there's no superace now, so sKyHigh will mop the floor with HiyA, then whatever player is left is no match for Hydra, Movie, Snow, EffOrt, etc. The only thing CJ has to worry about it taking down Jaedong.
4. Do you think the couple of new maps in WL are producing good games so far, or you were initially hoping for some old maps ,like Tau Cross last year, to be used again.
Atrioc : Honestly, the TvZ balance of the Winner's League maps is pretty horrendous: of the 33 games in that matchup that have been played so far, 25 have been won by Terran (75.8%). So yeah, I wouldn't mind some tried and true maps like Tau Cross to come back and even out those numbers, but what I really want (and I assume most SC fans are behind me on this) is maps that are not only new but balanced. It may not be the most exciting thing to play on iCCup, but I always prefer watching progamers duke it out on maps like Python, Fighting Spirit, and Destination rather than Moon Glaive or Roadrunner.
IntoTheWow : I think figuring out new maps is always fun, but too many new maps at the same time can be chaos when it comes to keeping things balanced. So far I'm happy with the maps except for Judgement Day which is horrible.
5.Thank you for your time ! Last words?
Atrioc : CJ is looking like garbage lately, they have no consistent ace and their backup players are failing when they need to shine the most. I honestly expect a JD all kill, but Oz still has answers to any Entus player that manages to snipe his way through. I only wish my Hwaseung jacket was here sooner so I could wear it during the victory.
IntoTheWow : Hopefully we can get Jaedong vs sKyHigh. I bet Jaedong is angry at him lol.
On February 09 2010 21:45 We Are Here wrote: iris... prepare some sort of ridiculous cheese plz
We saw how that worked for Really... I think JD got better at handling dumb Terran cheese after losing to skyhigh/fantasy/Flash/pretty much every other Terran
hopefully effort can snipe the dong, but seeing that JD is my fav player, i won't be too much sad if he AK CJ. The best thing would be the reverse all kill that happened last roud (that was AWESOME!)
personally i think if movie performed well...JD can be killed...or effort megacheese zvz...but the 1st match is pretty much 1-sided...skyhigh is another trump card...
i expect jd to lose in the third or fourth set, cj has great snipers. and then some unknown oz protoss will snipe back in set 5 and own the other matches (if needed) kt dejavu
On February 10 2010 00:59 iliera wrote: Hiya > Movie Hiya < Skyhigh Jaedong > Skyhigh Jaedong < Iris Killer < Iris BackHo < Iris OR BackHo > Iris into BackHo < Effort
It would be very impressive for Hiya and Movie to play before Jaedong and Iris, considering that they have already been decided for the opening game. But then again Movie is a ninja and Hiya is... a fish. So you never know.
On February 09 2010 23:36 prototype. wrote: Killer > sKyHigh
not happening lol...
Really? Have you seen Skyhigh's TvZ? Besides his TvT, he is nothing special. His game vs. great was considered the worst game ever. I'd say this game is gonnna be 50:50.
On February 10 2010 02:35 PiePie wrote: I always root for the underdogs
Then why are you not an ACE fan?
I mean in pairings. I did root for ace when they went up btw against other teams. Yes I am a KT fan, but I have been a KT fan for a LONG time before they started to actually do well, I'm not going to change just because they are doing well now, I'm quite happy. Please don't take what people say literally. When u watch the superbowl and someone is rooting for the Saints because they are the underdogs, theres no logic to bring up the last ranked team and question why they aren't a fan of that specific team.
To keep this thread on track as my original post was expressing my opinion why I wanted CJ to win... I really want to see a Dong vs Movie match :D I got a gut feeling its going to be epic even though Movie isnt doing so hot right now.
That's so perfect for cj to carefully prepare multiple snipes. The most obvious scenario if he beats iris is: zerg on 2nd map, skyhigh with cheese on 3rd and with movie or effort trying 4th if JD survives.
I wonder if this time Jaedong will be: (1) defeated (2) outsmarted (3) outplayed (4) lost only because he made a mistake.
Now on the serious note. I would be surprise if Jaedong all-kills CJ. I'm sure CJ has at least 2 snipers designated to take him down with crazy builds. But obviously, Jaedong is that good, that he can do it. Unlikely, but possible.
On February 10 2010 04:37 Lebesgue wrote: I wonder if this time Jaedong will be: (1) defeated (2) outsmarted (3) outplayed (4) lost only because he made a mistake.
Now on the serious note. I would be surprise if Jaedong all-kills CJ. I'm sure CJ has at least 2 snipers designated to take him down with crazy builds. But obviously, Jaedong is that good, that he can do it. Unlikely, but possible.
well yeah I guess it comes down to like, if Jaedong has a 80% chance to win a game, he only has a 41% chance to allkill.
On February 10 2010 02:35 PiePie wrote: I always root for the underdogs
Then why are you not an ACE fan?
When u watch the superbowl and someone is rooting for the Saints because they are the underdogs, theres no logic to bring up the last ranked team and question why they aren't a fan of that specific team.
There's also a difference between rooting for the Saints because they are underdogs, and rooting for CJ because you ALWAYS root for the underdogs. My emphasis on the word ALWAYS.
I don't get why I shouldn't be allowed to take someone literally if they don't clearly use sarcasm or exaggeration.
On February 10 2010 02:35 PiePie wrote: I always root for the underdogs
Then why are you not an ACE fan?
When u watch the superbowl and someone is rooting for the Saints because they are the underdogs, theres no logic to bring up the last ranked team and question why they aren't a fan of that specific team.
There's also a difference between rooting for the Saints because they are underdogs, and rooting for CJ because you ALWAYS root for the underdogs. My emphasis on the word ALWAYS.
I don't get why I shouldn't be allowed to take someone literally if they don't clearly use sarcasm or exaggeration.
But yeah, um, let's not take that further.
If I say I root for underdogs you could have used the same argument. The point is I shouldn't have to clarify everything if you should know what I mean, which I'm sure you did. If you asked me who i was rooting for and I said Saints, you would ask me why. I would say "I root for underdogs!" or I could say " I always root for the underdogs!". It really means the same thing and since this thread clearly isn't some sort of legal document which needs to be scrutinized I don't see why you would even bring that up, I mean which each post here I could probably pull up some word someone used and challenge them. It was not sarcasm or exaggeration, it's a statement thats meant to be taken in context of the setting with a bit of common sense. Even the fact that you even get anal over the word in this kind of thread makes me wonder... I mean honestly I was just posting my thoughts and I don't feel like I should have to explain every word I use on a TL fourm when my post isnt even directed at one specific person. My original post was not argumentative so I really don't see the point...
But yeah, let's not take that further. It wasn't even an argumentative statement and don't make a big deal over semantics
Your original statement was not even on topic to this thread, simply just questioning why I don't root for ace (which I obviously do if you read my other posts, I'm a huge Reach/Yellow fan.)
Anyhow back to the topic, I think starting with the Dong provides alot of risks for Oz. I mean yes Dong wants the all kill to get some pride and prove he is the best, but starting out first lets u get sniped easily because it gaurentees the other team 4 rounds against you to take you down. If you go in at the end the opposing team may only be able to send in 1 or 2 rounds of people to take you down. I think Oz is taking a risk with this one!
Actually to be fair, it ultimately comes down to what set CJ can snipe Jaedong as it always has. I definitely see Skyhigh making an appearance on the 4th set or later. NT, Roadrun, MoonGlaive all scream for a Terran player. Fighting Spirit is pretty much the same due to the sheer amount of TvT's being played on that map.
So outside of JD and Skyhigh which we obviously know Skyhigh is winning, taking a look at the other players leftover gives me this...
1) I have and always will stand by my opinion that Hiya is over-rated. Don't get me wrong, he's at least decent on good days, but he will at most get 1-kill against CJ.
2) Killer is much much better than before. The kid can play, just inconsistent at times. His ZvT seems slightly lacking, but still, have to give him credit.
3) This season's CJ team is wayy different than last season's. You could always count on Iris and even Savior playing a decent game and effort/movie/skyhigh were a mega trio of young stars in the making. Then you still had Much and Kwanro after all of that so there were a ton of ways CJ could prepare for each match. Nowadays, its CJEffort with a splash of streaky players. And even effort is no surefire win anymore (losses to Calm,Stats, etc in critical situations). Movie... can't seem to win a PvP for some reason or any game for that matter. Skyhigh is a true enigma; he'll play retardedly awesome like he did vs. Really on MoonGlaive or he'll lose to Stats on some lame 2-fact aggro strategy. Savior/Iris are nowhere near their former selves but I'm always hoping for their resurgence. Lastly, Snow is definitely showing promise, but not at the same level that I saw in Effort/skyhigh/movie last year.
Then the always possible JD AK and if somehow Effort miraculously wins against JD, then Effort AK.
If Coach Cho is feeling ballsy, he'll send Savior out instead of Movie and Savior will be absolutely crushed. So its possible to flip Effort and Savior's appearances. Oz has two Protoss-snipers (hiya/killer) which is the reasoning behind the move.
On February 10 2010 08:53 PiePie wrote: Effort actually has a chance against JD just because its ZvZ
Effort's been doing terrible ZvZ lately though.. =( It used to be his best at around 70% win rate... sigh effort
Well, yeah Effort has been failing recently... but I mean if he did beat Jaedong I wouldn't be too surprised. I mean Hyvaa and Hyuk? I at least give Effort just as much as a chance as Hyuk lol
I don't think an all kill by Jaedong will happen but I seriously would not be surprised if it happens. Its a shame that Oz doesn't have any decent zergs and protoss players because Skyhigh is really going to be an issue for them yet again, despite being pretty much autolose against any non-terran with a good vT matchup.
Though, CJ isn't the Winners League machine anymore. Having ditched Kwanro and lost Much, I think they've lost a lot of their sniping ability. If Jaedong is careful, Oz should win this fairly easily.
I'd trust Hyuk to beat Jaedong way more than I'd trust Effort (because Hyuk actually beats Jaedong).
Anyway, SkyHigh and Effort should be able to beat any non-JD player on Oz. The problem is they actually need to beat jaedong before they feast on those lowly scrubs. Maybe they'll send out Hydra to snipe or something
GO CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ CJ
Jaedong is not going to lose to SkyHigh unless SkyHigh has another clever cheese up his sleeves. Every time they played a standard game, Jaedong crushed SkyHigh.
Regardless, I'm confident that no one in CJ will be able to beat Oz back in a fair game. I love you CJ, but you're slumping HARD as of late. Not that interested in this match TBH :/
On February 10 2010 13:27 Mystlord wrote: JD still clearly ahead in Mutas. Looks like a clear JD win unless Effort magically pops 15 scourge or something.
On February 10 2010 13:29 Gumbo wrote: Fuck for sake, Jaedong weakest matchup is ZvZ, what the fuck happened.
Same thing with Flash getting really weak at TvP despite being the guy who pretty much brought TvP to the modern age. Players are just getting better and closing the gap in skill level.
On February 10 2010 13:29 Gumbo wrote: Fuck for sake, Jaedong weakest matchup is ZvZ, what the fuck happened.
Same thing with Flash getting really weak at TvP despite being the guy who pretty much brought TvP to the modern age. Players are just getting better and closing the gap in skill level.
how recent are we talking about O.o flash's recent TvP has been unstoppable
On February 10 2010 13:29 dukethegold wrote: The best thing Oz can do at this point is to send out Killer to snipe Effort.
But what happens after that? Can Killer and Hiya defeat Skyhigh and Movie?
The answer is no.
I'm a CJ fan and I think they could do okay. I mean, Skyhigh's vZ is bad, and Hiya is pretty good vP.
That said, Skyhigh and Movie will cream them.
Anyone know why JD didn't go in with all those lings after mutas were out? Could've done some drone damage while Effort only had 4 muta. Afraid of backstab or what?
On February 10 2010 13:29 Gumbo wrote: Fuck for sake, Jaedong weakest matchup is ZvZ, what the fuck happened.
Same thing with Flash getting really weak at TvP despite being the guy who pretty much brought TvP to the modern age. Players are just getting better and closing the gap in skill level.
how recent are we talking about O.o flash's recent TvP has been unstoppable
There was a time where Flash was getting demolished by the dragons again and again. Of course he's solved those issues through being more flexible.
On February 10 2010 13:32 disciple wrote: I bet Avidkeystamper and Atrioc will be the only dudes with OZ icon in their siggys to watch this match till the end
On February 10 2010 13:29 Gumbo wrote: Fuck for sake, Jaedong weakest matchup is ZvZ, what the fuck happened.
Same thing with Flash getting really weak at TvP despite being the guy who pretty much brought TvP to the modern age. Players are just getting better and closing the gap in skill level.
how recent are we talking about O.o flash's recent TvP has been unstoppable
There was a time where Flash was getting demolished by the dragons again and again. Of course he's solved those issues through being more flexible.
yeshyesh this is true, but yeah just seemed out of context cause was a while ago.
JD with his between SL regular slump T.T. Anyways Oz can still win this, GGaemo/Killer need to mop up Effort with a bo win, one of them beats Skyhigh's mediocre ZvT, and if needed Hiya will clean up Movie.
Edit: Nvm, lolmo is out, unless a BBS occurs here I do not see Oz winning period.
Yeah, let's just feed Effort some scrubs and hope he will get tired before we send in another scrub, and then tire him some more and then let's send Jaedong out again disguised as Killer.
On February 10 2010 13:41 dukethegold wrote: LOMO?
WTF IS CHO THINKING?
Yeah, let's just feed Effort some scrubs and hope he will get tired before we send in another scrub, and then tire him some more and then let's send Jaedong out again disguised as Killer.
On February 10 2010 13:41 dukethegold wrote: LOMO?
WTF IS CHO THINKING?
Yeah, let's just feed Effort some scrubs and hope he will get tired before we send in another scrub, and then tire him some more and then let's send Jaedong out again disguised as Killer.
It would be smarter to save a player like HiyA for a situation where he can potentially reverse all-kill. You don't go in order of best player, second best, third best, etc.
Hwaseung isn't a particularly deep team, there aren't really a lot of options.
On February 10 2010 13:41 dukethegold wrote: LOMO?
WTF IS CHO THINKING?
Yeah, let's just feed Effort some scrubs and hope he will get tired before we send in another scrub, and then tire him some more and then let's send Jaedong out again disguised as Killer.
Let's think about this. Who else is Oz going to send? They've got three more players to send and the only two good options they have is Killer (loll) and Hiya. May as well send Lomo and hope his two port wraith does something.
Oz has no depth whatsoever so what do you expect Coach Cho to do?
Probably around equal, although with three gas zerg straight from the beginning it's... Well, impossible to do the traditional third gas deny. Three hatch before pool leads to scary cows.
LOL ballsy as fuck builds from both. Effort taking his third; some mnm and 2 firebats out for Lomo. Zerglings keep getting into Lomo's base. Mutas about to pop.
Lol Effort demonstrated what is known as WTF Mutalisk micro, where your ability to micro Mutas is questioned as you flew over your opponent's MnM group.
On February 10 2010 13:41 dukethegold wrote: LOMO?
WTF IS CHO THINKING?
Yeah, let's just feed Effort some scrubs and hope he will get tired before we send in another scrub, and then tire him some more and then let's send Jaedong out again disguised as Killer.
Let's think about this. Who else is Oz going to send? They've got three more players to send and the only two good options they have is Killer (loll) and Hiya. May as well send Lomo and hope his two port wraith does something.
Oz has no depth whatsoever so what do you expect Coach Cho to do?
Sending Killer out to snipe Effort. In my eyes, that is a more legit choice.
I can not even imagine Lomo winning against Effort.
Lomo takes out the third. Effort with some not as good muta micro there. Lomo getting turrets up and SV. Effort expoing to the 6 oclock; lomo walks right by it.
On February 10 2010 13:49 dukethegold wrote: Sending Killer out to snipe Effort. In my eyes, that is a more legit choice.
That would only be possible if Killer has prepared to snipe Effort. Suppose he spent his prep time say, for vP or vT to snipe Movie or Skyhigh? In that case, Killer losing to Effort would be a much bigger setback.
On February 10 2010 13:59 Fredflintstone wrote: i dunno... i think that game just reiterates how bad Lomo actually is
How so? Skill is not necessarily determiend by mechanics and execution. You have to consider strategy in that, and Lomo clearly had the superior strategy (and build order)
On February 10 2010 13:59 Fredflintstone wrote: i dunno... i think that game just reiterates how bad Lomo actually is
And how good 14cc is.
I mean, that fail scan (lost so many marines) and that fail eraser (he would've been much closer to taking out the 6th the first time if he did do it correctly).
Effort made a mistake not protecting that third, but I don't think he had enough units. And losing all his mutas hurt lmao.
I guess when Effort loses, he can only play like crap, that's the only justification. God forbid that he just got raped by Lomo. Give credit where credit is due.
On February 10 2010 14:27 Itachii wrote: Lomo all killing CJ would be more ridiculous than Puma's all kill.
JD beat Iris so no AK for Lomo.
Stream's too laggy for me to know what's going on other than the fact that I hear lots of marine death screams and I see that there are some more purple bases?
Lomo is getting wrecked by early chamber carapace upgraded crazy zerg; skipping defilers and lurkers entirely for early cara up-ed ultras that wreck face.
On February 10 2010 14:27 Itachii wrote: Lomo all killing CJ would be more ridiculous than Puma's all kill.
JD beat Iris so no AK for Lomo.
Stream's too laggy for me to know what's going on other than the fact that I hear lots of marine death screams and I see that there are some more purple bases?
On February 10 2010 14:27 Itachii wrote: Lomo all killing CJ would be more ridiculous than Puma's all kill.
JD beat Iris so no AK for Lomo.
Stream's too laggy for me to know what's going on other than the fact that I hear lots of marine death screams and I see that there are some more purple bases?
yah already edited my post, sleepy as hell
NP I'm barely awake as it is.
WOW THAT IS ALOT OF ULTRA
GG FROM LOMO
That's recommended for sure even though I only saw a slideshow of the game. In fact Lomo vs Effort was pretty fucking entertaining too.
On February 10 2010 14:35 cokencheese wrote: I don't get it. How did Hydra manage to mass carapace Ultras on only two bases? His late bases were barely even mining.
Lomo had a big advantage after taking out all those expos, but Hydra's upgraded cows raped face after he scourged basically all of Lomo's SV's. Then Lomo's third kept getting harassed and he couldn't get in good mining and Hydra got back map position and had his expos running.
Lomo beat effort because of the unharassed 14cc and good strategy and his denying of the third gas; his micro was less than impressive, but it wasn't enough to lose him the game after effort lost some mutas and lurkers that didn't do enough damage.
On February 10 2010 14:35 cokencheese wrote: I don't get it. How did Hydra manage to mass carapace Ultras on only two bases? His late bases were barely even mining.
He did a crazy zerg build. Which skips defilers and lurkers. So basically, other than 11 mutas, all the other gas (including from lurker aspect, lurkers, defiler den, consume upgrade, defilers) is saved until Ultra Cavern pops. That's a lot of gas.
Normally, all that gas is used the moment it's acquired. Mutas -> Lurkers -> Defilers -> Ultra. But instead, skip lurkers and defilers, which is a huge amount of gas.
On February 10 2010 14:34 dukethegold wrote: So...Lomo defeats Effort.
Cho send out Hydra, another Zerg, against the man who defeated Effort.
Hydra wins.
I really don't get how starcraft works.
It's a lot easier to beat a better opponent when you only have to win 1 game against them instead of a series. Hydra did an unorthodox build, which ended up paying off huge since he won't have to face Lomo again.
On February 10 2010 14:40 dukethegold wrote: Anybody else here remember the period of time when Effort had like 19-2, 92% win rate against Terran? -__-
On February 10 2010 08:53 PiePie wrote: Effort actually has a chance against JD just because its ZvZ
Effort's been doing terrible ZvZ lately though.. =( It used to be his best at around 70% win rate... sigh effort
Well, yeah Effort has been failing recently... but I mean if he did beat Jaedong I wouldn't be too surprised. I mean Hyvaa and Hyuk? I at least give Effort just as much as a chance as Hyuk lol
On February 10 2010 14:35 cokencheese wrote: I don't get it. How did Hydra manage to mass carapace Ultras on only two bases? His late bases were barely even mining.
On February 10 2010 14:35 cokencheese wrote: I don't get it. How did Hydra manage to mass carapace Ultras on only two bases? His late bases were barely even mining.
He did a crazy zerg build. Which skips defilers and lurkers. So basically, other than 11 mutas, all the other gas (including from lurker aspect, lurkers, defiler den, consume upgrade, defilers) is saved until Ultra Cavern pops. That's a lot of gas.
Normally, all that gas is used the moment it's acquired. Mutas -> Lurkers -> Defilers -> Ultra. But instead, skip lurkers and defilers, which is a huge amount of gas.
Cool, thanks. Looks like Zero and Jaedong have been popularizing this same build recently.
I'm not to sure that lomo was way ahead the game as some say here.
Even tho hydra lost his 3rd, he had mined at least a few extra gas from it and wasn't there a time where (foreign) zergs used a fast upgrade/ultra build from 2 base which wasn't too weak?
I haven't seen the whole game so it's more a question than a opinion.
Even with crazy zerg losing your third gas base is pretty fucking huge, and Lomo kept expos down for a good while - that built up gas can only last you so much while the terran can just constantly pump mnm. Hydra did good (from what I saw of that slideshow) in keeping ultras alive and killing SV. If Lomo had built up a fleet of SV then Hydra wouldn't have had a chance.
On February 10 2010 14:40 dukethegold wrote: Anybody else here remember the period of time when Effort had like 19-2, 92% win rate against Terran? -__-
Vulture out. Hydra goes for a break but fails. Vulture micro kills all the lings and will likely kill all the drones. Should've just built one sunken. Hydra's face shows that he knows he lost.
On February 10 2010 15:31 NeoOmega wrote: Skyhigh's barracks is in the middle for a quick scout. He pulls this all the time. Somebody needs to bbs this kid.
Or he could be bunker rushing, who knows. Im a noob.
Man!! Atrioc was so wrong when he predicted a Jaedong all-kill. Yet his OZ win prediction comes true. After all these years as a Dong fangirl, Atrioc should know that he'll go through a post-SL-title slump for a few weeks. I'm sure he'll be back though in time for the next OSL. Hello Platinum mouse.
gahh i just spent the last 5 mins trying to edit this in gimp the say 'gyrados learned 14cc'.. but GIMP(or me) is retarded and i could not get select boxes to go away
Can't really blame Hydra and Skyhigh. Hiya got 2 BO cheese wins. If Hydra did anything other than 12 hatch or if Skyhigh didnt scout Hiya in the last spot ... woulda coulda shoulda...
Hydra should have been expecting a bunker rush though. Hiya can't play TvZ straight up.
On February 10 2010 16:14 pylonsalad wrote: Can't really blame Hydra and Skyhigh. Hiya got 2 BO cheese wins. If Hydra did anything other than 12 hatch or if Skyhigh didnt scout scout Hiya in the last spot ... woulda coulda shoulda...
On February 10 2010 16:14 pylonsalad wrote: Can't really blame Hydra and Skyhigh. Hiya got 2 BO cheese wins. If Hydra did anything other than 12 hatch or if Skyhigh didnt scout Hiya in the last spot ... woulda coulda shoulda...
Hydra should have been expecting a bunker rush though. Hiya can't play TvZ straight up.
It was Skyhigh that tried to cheese. Proxy rax and proxy starport. He just failed to pressure.
Damn, CJ is so inconsistent. It's like any of them could beat any player but lost the next day to a b-teamer. This WL is so less exciting than last season's. At least for me as a CJ fan.
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Butthurt much?
Dont remember proxy rax and proxy startport from Skyhigh? Thats cheese if you ask me.
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Except that EffOrt expanded to his nat, while Jaedong expanded inbase, which is technically a BO advantage for JD, he'll get more mutas, and he'll get them out faster. If, of course, that first attack is somehow blocked, then EffOrt does have an advantage.
But seriously, EffOrt needs to stop losing to protoss, and needs to stop losing to bad terrans.
Lomo's abilities only activate in revenge of the fall of his manlover Jaedong. It is a beautiful and powerful relationship -- should someone beat Jaedong, Lomo is granted super powers directly afterwards and has a 99% chance to win.
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Except that EffOrt expanded to his nat, while Jaedong expanded inbase, which is technically a BO advantage for JD, he'll get more mutas, and he'll get them out faster. If, of course, that first attack is somehow blocked, then EffOrt does have an advantage.
But seriously, EffOrt needs to stop losing to protoss, and needs to stop losing to bad terrans.
???? Do you even play ZvZ? I am not giving excuses or anything, but if you ever played ZvZ you would know that hat at nat>>>hat at main once both are up, especially at cross spots. No you dont get mutas out faster, that depends on pool/gas timing and not on hatch timing. How in the world is a nat hatch with 2gas worse than a 2hat in main once both hatches are up. Just try playing overgas/hat in main vs 12hat or 12pool expo and see how difficult it is.
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Except that EffOrt expanded to his nat, while Jaedong expanded inbase, which is technically a BO advantage for JD, he'll get more mutas, and he'll get them out faster. If, of course, that first attack is somehow blocked, then EffOrt does have an advantage.
But seriously, EffOrt needs to stop losing to protoss, and needs to stop losing to bad terrans.
This is incorrect.
If you hatch in base and opponent hatches at natural + hatch timings are the same, if you don't end the game in the next 1-2 minutes after your mutas hatch, it's GG.
Zerg that hatch in main is essentially FORCED to attack and fight at opponent's base which is a HUGE disadvantage.
I'm not sure why Jaedong is being massochistic lately and going in base 2nd hatch.... He had the lings necessary to fight off Effort and claim a natural hatchery.
Jaedong was able to win vs Crazy Hydra in the same exact situation, but Crazy Hydra isn't that good.
Good zergs like Effort on the other hand will make you pay dearly for it.
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Except that EffOrt expanded to his nat, while Jaedong expanded inbase, which is technically a BO advantage for JD, he'll get more mutas, and he'll get them out faster. If, of course, that first attack is somehow blocked, then EffOrt does have an advantage.
But seriously, EffOrt needs to stop losing to protoss, and needs to stop losing to bad terrans.
This is incorrect.
If you hatch in base and opponent hatches at natural + hatch timings are the same, if you don't end the game in the next 1-2 minutes after your mutas hatch, it's GG.
Zerg that hatch in main is essentially FORCED to attack and fight at opponent's base which is a HUGE disadvantage.
I'm not sure why Jaedong is being massochistic lately and going in base 2nd hatch.... He had the lings necessary to fight off Effort and claim a natural hatchery.
Jaedong was able to win vs Crazy Hydra in the same exact situation, but Crazy Hydra isn't that good.
Good zergs like Effort on the other hand will make you pay dearly for it.
actually this is incorrect as well
crazy hydra is a very godd zvz'er, probably top 5-10 in the scene
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Except that EffOrt expanded to his nat, while Jaedong expanded inbase, which is technically a BO advantage for JD, he'll get more mutas, and he'll get them out faster. If, of course, that first attack is somehow blocked, then EffOrt does have an advantage.
But seriously, EffOrt needs to stop losing to protoss, and needs to stop losing to bad terrans.
This is incorrect.
If you hatch in base and opponent hatches at natural + hatch timings are the same, if you don't end the game in the next 1-2 minutes after your mutas hatch, it's GG.
Zerg that hatch in main is essentially FORCED to attack and fight at opponent's base which is a HUGE disadvantage.
I'm not sure why Jaedong is being massochistic lately and going in base 2nd hatch.... He had the lings necessary to fight off Effort and claim a natural hatchery.
Jaedong was able to win vs Crazy Hydra in the same exact situation, but Crazy Hydra isn't that good.
Good zergs like Effort on the other hand will make you pay dearly for it.
actually this is incorrect as well
crazy hydra is a very godd zvz'er, probably top 5-10 in the scene
Jaedong,Lux,Kwanro,Calm,Effort,Yarnc,Zero,Shine,Hyuk andd..... lets put crazy hydra arbitrarily as no10? Where did you get that from? The only impressive game I've seen from him was his game vs JD in the MST qualifiers and a 2-6 record is not impressive at all.
What Tien said is definitely correct, if both players place their hatches at relatively the same time the guy that puts his hat at the nat is definitely at a huge advantage and will win except if the other guy kills him straight up with mutas or lings(which is really hard on cross maps because timings give you even less of advantage in zvz). Oh and CH would've probably won that game if he actually managed to pop 6 mutas right away but he built a couple of scourge due to mineral lack and JD microd like a god and CH's nat mutas/drones kept dying instantly, if CH got 6 mutas even JD would be fighting a insanely tough uphill battle even though his mutas were slightly faster. I am just asking you guys to play overgas/hat at main vs 12hat at nat and see how hard it is to play that out vs a guy who is near your skill level.
On February 11 2010 01:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: Lomo's abilities only activate in revenge of the fall of his manlover Jaedong. It is a beautiful and powerful relationship -- should someone beat Jaedong, Lomo is granted super powers directly afterwards and has a 99% chance to win.
On February 11 2010 01:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: Lomo's abilities only activate in revenge of the fall of his manlover Jaedong. It is a beautiful and powerful relationship -- should someone beat Jaedong, Lomo is granted super powers directly afterwards and has a 99% chance to win.
That you Flash?? You really wish Jaedong was a homo for you as he was for Lomo don't you?
On February 10 2010 16:16 QuakerOats wrote: Effort also got a BO win vs JD, and Hydra vs Lomo was kind of a cheesy BO win too. If you look at it that way everything is a BO win.
Except that EffOrt expanded to his nat, while Jaedong expanded inbase, which is technically a BO advantage for JD, he'll get more mutas, and he'll get them out faster. If, of course, that first attack is somehow blocked, then EffOrt does have an advantage.
But seriously, EffOrt needs to stop losing to protoss, and needs to stop losing to bad terrans.
This is incorrect.
If you hatch in base and opponent hatches at natural + hatch timings are the same, if you don't end the game in the next 1-2 minutes after your mutas hatch, it's GG.
Zerg that hatch in main is essentially FORCED to attack and fight at opponent's base which is a HUGE disadvantage.
I'm not sure why Jaedong is being massochistic lately and going in base 2nd hatch.... He had the lings necessary to fight off Effort and claim a natural hatchery.
Jaedong was able to win vs Crazy Hydra in the same exact situation, but Crazy Hydra isn't that good.
Good zergs like Effort on the other hand will make you pay dearly for it.
He did claim in his interview that he got the timings wrong. And he blamed lack of practice for it. I am sure he's figured a powerful hat in base build that beats expanding to nat every time, but this time just failed to execute it.
Man, are you people retarded? overgas HAS to build the second hatchery inside the base. Anyone who thinks overwise are completely clueless, especially the guy that thought Jaedong's build is outdated. ROFL have you people not been watching ZvZ at all the past year?
And Jaedong started off in a build ADVANTAGE. Overgas > overpool. If Effort went 12pool expo then yeah, he would have had a build advantage except he went fucking overpool into lair first with a sunk for no reason. Did you people even watch the game?
People seem to of forgotten that Oz won this series...
and that no matter how great a win vs JD is, losing to Lomo takes away all of that glory plus some. Ffs, that guy hasn't won a public game in forever. I thought he quit! At least JD beat his scrub terran <3.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Ivo/mapsfinal_2copy.jpg)
Jaedong < Fighting Spirit >
Iris![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Ivo/Results_copy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Ivo/recommended_copy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk5/neverggg/oslshoots/bisu1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Ivo/interview_copy.jpg)
Oh well.
