EPT[SWL] CJ Entus vs KT Rolster - Page 34
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7. thing is we can make a case for KT too. Flash is a beast and can beat anyone on STX. Stats will own all STX T's. Violet own anyone on STX that isnt a zerg. Hoejja can kill a P bla bla bla... as someone above already stated, it really all comes down to the lineup. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7. Hyun can give him a nice run for his money. | ||
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thestool91
672 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:40 Vasoline73 wrote: Mehhhh. KT has Z, T, and P snipers who are good in the MU. I think calling them an Oz equivalent is selling them really short. It's like saying STX is just Calm (as long as he's not facing an S class terran right?), Kal if he's having a good day, Hwasin if he can cheese a zerg, Hero if he faces a protoss player and then a bunch of all in and cheese games from everyone else. That's not the team at all but it could be spun that way KT is deep because it has matchup specialists who are good and a high team moral that's pushing them this season. I mean you have Flash who's a favorite verses anyone, then a bunch of strong upcoming players who preform well + old players who can still take games off people. Violet, Stats, and ForGG are terran snipers... Lux, Firefist, 815, and ForGG are zerg snipers... and then Violet, Hoejja, Stats, and Lux are protoss snipers. Of course some of the players have to rely on getting their ideal MU (Hoejja anyone?) or getting ideal practice time and a good build (ForGG) but I would say that KT is about or maybe a little less deep than any team out there. The best ace and then solid support. Sounds deep enough to me. I'm obviously a KT fan so I have bias but I would take: Flash Luxury Violet Stats Hoejja 815 ForGG in a Bo7 over Calm Kal Hwasin Shuttle Bogus Hero Frozen anytime. And even without bias you can see that that MU would be pretty evenly matched in terms of depth. Maybe throw Shuttle out for July but July hasn't been played in PL for almost a year now -_-;;;;. As for SKT, they have 4 solid players which is enough for a Bo7, but no solid zerg player, which is losing alot of depth in my mind. Hyuk is a ZvZ sniper, but KT has too many Z to snipe lol, and they all tend to be good ZvZ'ers themselves. +Plus like Idra said, they are usually not on the same page and usually in different periods of slumps. In general I think it's just the way you look at it. EDIT: lol a bunch of posts before I got to reply lol I will try to be as unbiased in this conversation. i think that ktf has a very in depth team and if i am wrong please tell me where i went wrong. maybe they are the team with the most depth and maybe not, but in my opinion, they are definitely up in the top three teams when comparing depth. And in a BO7, I would most likely pick KTF over any other team, but that could be arguable with STX and SKT. If I could pick the lineup for KTF's bo7, it would look like this and I believe its probably one of the most in depth line ups Barracks / 815 -(Barracks) You have rookies like barracks who I will admit gave Jangbi a shot in the BO3 in the ro32 in the OSL and played an amazing comeback game against MVP. even though its too early to say how good he is, its obvious that hes been getting the best terran experience from the non-other than flash. I will say that I believe barracks has strong potential to be a great player. -(815)-Even though I cant say he always plays like the way he did on the map blue storm, hes still a legitimate player. He has exceptional zvz, and his zvp and zvt could be better but still he is a legitimate PL player. Tempest-hes not really around lately, but of course his macro is something to be feared. the commentators say that his macro is from his near perfect zealot to dragoon ratio or something similar to that. as well, sometimes his micro can be quite stunning. Tempest vs Light--> epic 33 (I believe) dragoon anyone? Hes taken out jaedong in a bo3 also if it means much to you all (but it was in gom so jaedong probably didnt even care about it) Stats- also by beating skyhigh and effort, two of cj's aces, stats has shown strong performance. his run in the msl exceeded my expectations. he beat fantasy and july, two players who are very strong in the vP matchup. the last match between july and stats was amazing, especially with his reaver control. also, he took out jangbi in a bo3. its not bad. hoejja-the hive tech beast. i orgasm whenever i see him go into hive mode, especially versus protoss. his recent game vs hiya and kal really impressed me. versus hiya, an odd tactic that won him the game by throwing hiya off guard (and hiya was being pretty stupid also) and against kal, hoejja's abillity to attack many places at once. (also displayed vs bisu in the winners league) hes pretty inconsistent, but i would say hes an excellent sniper. luxury-yes he is chance park, and he loves his all-in builds. you can say he sucks asshole, but he still rakes in the wins. and also he fucks with your mind because hes the kind of player you cant read. hes kind of like nal_ra. u cant really anticipate what he will do. before even starting the game, he has a grasp on your mind. hes one the most reliable players to pull an upset with his consistent random builds. violet- violet is on a small losing streak but i wouldnt say hes on a slump. his loss to hydra and action were upsetting, and the game against calm he got caught unprepared, and against hiya he blew the lead. he still gets shaky at times. but regardless, its stupid to say hes not a strong proleague player. he has had excellent streaks and excellent games. i would say the two most meorable games RECENTLY were against great and against hyuk. check those out flash- flash. i hope ive made a point and by that i mean i hope that no one thinks kt doesnt have an in depth team. nowadays, even non-kt fans have recognized many of kt's unknown players. ok shit i forgot forgg. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7802 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Calm got 2-0ed by Lux in the most recent WCG Korea (and is 0-4 against him in career) Kal is known for being very inconsistent and calling him the best PvT is a huge stretch with Stork, Jangbi, and Best all showing strong vT almost always. Kal on his good day could beat anyone, but Kal usually isnt having great days. Hwasin is easily sniped by a good P Again not so clear cut right? | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7. Flash is the favorite over anyone in STX. Lux is a good match for either Calm, Kal, or Hwasin. Violet and Stats are good matches for everyone on STX that isn't Calm, and maybe By.Hero (Kal is still a favorite but not by much). Modesty is a ZvZ sniper akin to 815, only not as good. Shuttle is solid, I'd put him a bit below the level of Stats/Violet. Frozen is kind of like Forgg, usually pretty awful but surprisingly capable sometimes. I mean we could play the match ups game but here's how I'd order the top few players on the teams: Flash Calm Kal Luxury Violet/Stats Stats/Violet (This one is up in the air, we haven't seen Stats a lot but there's something there) Hwasin Shuttle That's probably the top four for each team and I think it's a pretty fair assumption. Flash is the best, but Calm and Kal are pretty close behind. After that KT is probably heavily favorited over STX's next two in Hwasin and Shuttle (Mostly because Stats and/or Violet given the day have been wrecking PvT and PvP, Stats more recently but violet overall). After that both teams have a lot of playable zergs that are hard to rank -- Hero's probably the best but July and Modesty aren't much to talk about. July's a good ZvP sniper, but Hoejja's a better ZvP sniper (Hero is better than both), Modesty's an alright ZvZ sniper, 815 is much better, and Firefist is a pretty decent all around player. Then you've got the other wildcards, in Frozean/Bogus and Forgg/Tempest. I'd say they're pretty closely matched. You could give favor to either team given on the map set up -- I think in a very zerg favorited map pool STX probably has the lead with Calm/Hero over Lux/[insert KT zerg here, probably 815 if it's a zerg map). Terran maps, I'd give it to KT since Flash is as close to a guaranteed win in PL as you can get, and ForGG is alright, probably worse than Hwasin and better than Frozean. Protoss favored it gets close, Kal is assuredly better than Stats/Violet, but not by a whole lot, and then Shuttle is pretty solid but definitely worse than the KT protosses. tl;dr pretty closely matched and it would basically come down to the match card to see which team is favorited. I think it's telling though that KT beat STX in R1 and R2 recently with their newly improved line up, though. You can chalk it up to momentum and Flash churning wins, but Flash hasn't had to ace match it up a lot and that's because KT has been way more solid. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:21 Vasoline73 wrote: Calm got 2-0ed by Lux in the most recent WCG Korea (and is 0-4 against him in career) Kal is known for being very inconsistent and calling him the best PvT is a huge stretch with Stork, Jangbi, and Best all showing strong vT almost always. Kal on his good day could beat anyone, but Kal usually isnt having great days. Hwasin is easily sniped by a good P Again not so clear cut right? calm beat effort, jaedong, and kwanro in bos, and has better records this season than all of them and luxury. he also has an 80% zvp record in this past year kal is over 70% this past year in pvt and pvp, so he's actually the most consistently good protoss at the moment, and his pvz is pretty good too, he just 2-0ed hoejja for example dunno if you buy the guemchi hype, but hwasin knocked him out of both leagues | ||
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kyzers0ze
Singapore1073 Posts
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
There's no team that has four players who always show consistent results. It's all about current form. | ||
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anch
United States5457 Posts
On February 07 2010 18:24 kyzers0ze wrote: how did this become an arguement about whether stx or kt is deeper? ACE and estro are the deepest teams. deep as in ranking? look at the qualifiers for OSL and MSL, thats basically how deep a team is. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
On February 07 2010 19:12 moopie wrote: cheddar terran and chintoss leading KT to victory. this chintoss is pretty good | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:26 jalstar wrote: calm beat effort, jaedong, and kwanro in bos, and has better records this season than all of them and luxury. he also has an 80% zvp record in this past year kal is over 70% this past year in pvt and pvp, so he's actually the most consistently good protoss at the moment, and his pvz is pretty good too, he just 2-0ed hoejja for example dunno if you buy the guemchi hype, but hwasin knocked him out of both leagues Stop basing all your arguments on just stats. You can't say one person is better than another because he beat him in a BoX a few months ago. Rock beat Jaedong in a Bo5 Kal isnt even close to #1 PvT. Stork just outclasses him and one could argue that Bisu, Best and Jangbi are all above him. He's got good win% this year, but he's beaten none of the great vP terran players. his biggest accomplishment in that MU is wins vs Leta, who sucks vP, while he is 1-3 vs Fantasy and Really, the only real challenges | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
It's strong! Leta is good at everything he does, his hands are so insanely fast. I popped in to say LOL! Only Skyhigh was on my fpl. That kid is the best TvT sniper IN THE WORLD. He took down Flash, Sea, Light, Fantasy(x2), Really in his last 5. Uh.. that's about everyone in the MU. Only Leta, Firebathero, Upmagic and Hwasin, and I think he's scalped every T ace in TvT. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
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biz87
Germany95 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Winner's league is really anybody's game. There are at least 5 teams that can field monster line-ups. It only takes 4 wins to take a match and those wins can come from anybody. In no particular order: 1. OZ with Jaedong, Hiya (just look at last year) 2. KT with Flash, Lux, Violet, Stats and a whole slew of situationally useful players (Hoejja ZvP, 815 ZvZ, Tempest PvT, etc) 3. SKT with Bisu, Fantasy, Best, Canata, Hyuk ZvZ/P 4. STX with Calm, Kal, Hwasin, and an alarming number of snipers 5. CJ with Skyhigh, Movie, Effort, Iris, and who knows what up-and-coming youngster will suddenly reverse all-kill in the finals KT has a slight edge over the other teams because they're on fire and they have Flash (although on paper they're no better than SKT/STX), but all the other teams are powerful threats in a Bo7 and there's just no knowing who will win. Arguing over which team is "deepest" is pretty pointless IMO because random shit happens all the time in winner's league (who needs depth when you have GUEMCHI??!). Even people like Killer and Perfectman can step up their game and make an impact on a Bo7. I don't even try to predict what will happen in winner's league --- I just sit back and watch the circus. | ||
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
On February 08 2010 05:53 Djabanete wrote: who needs depth when you have GUEMCHI??! ^this +1 No one should talk about depth anymore, it's just a way for lesser teams to feel like they are better because they have more scrubs for Guemchi to kill. end of argument. It's like even though KT is completely owning everyone this season, "hey my number 9 team has more DEPTH THAN U HAHAHHA but yeah we are like almost dead last" QQ MORE GUEMCHIZZLE LOVES IT. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On February 07 2010 17:03 IntoTheWow wrote: HyuK is way better than all of KT's Zergs. You jut compared Bisu/BeSt/Fantasy/Canata to Flash/Luxury/Violet/Stats? lol Yeah KT is such a strongest team in playoffs, that's why we didn't see them there last year? They didn't even go past the bo5 rounds and you expect them to do good in a bo7? Luxury is increibly inconsistent, probably one of the most inconsistent players out there. STX is a favourite over KT in a bo7 any day. KT doesnt have a reliable zerg, his Protosses are decent but they are not good all around, just in some match ups. The only solid player KT has is Flash, the rest depends too much on maps and match ups to call that "depth". Last year they didn't have half of these players playing well until the fourth/fifth rounds? Are you really forgetful or something? And Hyuk is not better than Luxury. Hyuk isn't even close. Hyuk had one break out month and then proceeded to play the same way he's played the last 2 years -- like garbage, worse than ALL of KT's zergs. KT has been stomping through PL and is still undefeated in WL this year. Flash is obviously the best and most consistent player on KT -- he's the best and most consistent player in PL. But they've won the vast majority of their games without an ace match, and I mean the VAST majority. Flash had to win ace like 4 times against Fantasy(after he lost the first game, meaning KT picked up 2 wins on SKT), Sea(Again, when he lost to Hyun, meaning KT took 2 games without Flash against the current #2 team), and against Stork and Calm where he had to win 2 games in the night. That's 22 PL games, and only 2 in which Flash had to win 2 games. And you know what else? Flash hasn't even had to play all the ace games. Violet was put in for ace twice against Leta and Mind, respectfully, and picked up both games. KT has been amazing and I'll be damned if I put up with people calling them lacking for the first time since like 2005 that they've been absolutely astounding. You can call inconsistency all you want, but every one of the teams you can list that's "more deep" than KT has horrible inconsistency problems. SKT has barely ever been all on the same page, recently with Bisu, and in the past with Best and Fantasy. STX is home to resident "ace" protoss player Kal, easily the most inconsistent dragon around, and Calm, who is Calm sometimes and Clam half the time. Hwasin is consistent in so much as he's always been mediocre to good, which is fine. KT is just as strong as any team and their stats show it. You're thinking way too hard about last season where KT was just developing their currently dominant line up. I'm not saying KT is invincible, but I'm sure as hell saying you're completely and utterly wrong when you say things like "Hyuk is better than every KT zerg." And that Canata is legitimately better than Stats/Violet. tl;dr: KT is the best >:[ *raaant* | ||
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