Movie < Flash who cares < Flash who cares < Flash Effort > Flash (in controversial power outage decision) Effort < FORGGhttp://www.gomtv.net/videos/173
On February 07 2010 12:47 Vasoline73 wrote: Movie < Flash who cares < Flash who cares < Flash Effort > Flash (in controversial power outage decision) Effort < FORGGhttp://www.gomtv.net/videos/173
Prediction for the first game: Movie proxies a robo at the 8 o'clock expansion, has a fail reaver attack. Takes over the map like mad and screws breaking the push. Flash uses the high ground to take out Movie's natural but Movie's mega-base count gets him over the line even though it looked like Flash would make a comeback.
Well that's what I hope. 12 nexus is a good start.
On February 07 2010 13:11 r33k wrote: Who didn't expect Flash to play like the childish asshole he is?
Movie went 12 nex. Bunker rush is standard. Really losing the 12 Nex isn't THAT bad but Movie lost a few probes and goons so he's pretty much screwed.
On February 07 2010 13:14 iamho wrote: god movie is so bad, isnt the standard response to getting scouted first and bunker rushed following a 12nex to just pull back and let it die?
Yes. I think Stork said a while back the best thing to do when bunker rushed is just let the nexus die and save probes.
On February 07 2010 13:14 iamho wrote: god movie is so bad, isnt the standard response to getting scouted first and bunker rushed following a 12nex to just pull back and let it die?
On February 07 2010 13:14 LipsOfDeceit wrote: Why does he do this nexus first shit, he's already shown he can hang with Flash in a straight up game, why go for the risky stuff .
Gods, what a humiliation for Movie. Can't believe that this is the strat he prepared... I also don't get why some pro's keep going for the fast Nexus vs Terran. They get raped so often it's not even funny...
On February 07 2010 13:17 unionbank wrote: Movie makes me want to vomit for 30 hours straight i can't forgive that kid anymore honestly pathetic player
On February 07 2010 13:14 LipsOfDeceit wrote: Why does he do this nexus first shit, he's already shown he can hang with Flash in a straight up game, why go for the risky stuff .
You base that off one game on EOTS?
He was more than hanging with Flash in game 1 and 2. If Movie's execution had been slightly better, there was no reason he couldn't have taken those games. 12 nex clearly doesn't work for him, especially against Flash's ability to stop it.
On February 07 2010 13:17 GeLaar wrote: Gods, what a humiliation for Movie. Can't believe that this is the strat he prepared... I also don't get why some pro's keep going for the fast Nexus vs Terran. They get raped so often it's not even funny...
it's like the 14cc, greed for an win
in movies case, he had to try to get an early advantage to beat flash. But it backfired horribly
On February 07 2010 13:14 LipsOfDeceit wrote: Why does he do this nexus first shit, he's already shown he can hang with Flash in a straight up game, why go for the risky stuff .
You base that off one game on EOTS?
He was more than hanging with Flash in game 1 and 2. If Movie's execution had been slightly better, there was no reason he couldn't have taken those games. 12 nex clearly doesn't work for him, especially against Flash's ability to stop it.
He got a massive lead from a unorthodox strategy, not straight up, and still couldn't hang with Flash in game 1. None of Movie's attack dented Flash's army. Game 2 was not straight up either, lol.
Movie can't pull himself up after the trauma of losing in the finals against Flash... His so mentally weak that the only thing in mind is that he has to go for a really greedy build and win otherwise he thinks he has no chance. With that kind of mentality you cannot win especially against flash.. but i don't blame him but im still disappointed
replay showing movie could have killed bunker with probes.. its had 14 hp left with 4 probes surrounding it, but movie retreated just before it would have died.
On February 07 2010 13:26 jiabung wrote: replay showing movie could have killed bunker with probes.. its had 14 hp left with 4 probes surrounding it, but movie retreated just before it would have died.
was thinking the same... probably his nerves got to him..
On February 07 2010 13:26 jiabung wrote: replay showing movie could have killed bunker with probes.. its had 14 hp left with 4 probes surrounding it, but movie retreated just before it would have died.
On February 07 2010 13:26 jiabung wrote: replay showing movie could have killed bunker with probes.. its had 14 hp left with 4 probes surrounding it, but movie retreated just before it would have died.
so close for movie, had the probes continued attacking, he would hold the expo...
On February 07 2010 13:26 jiabung wrote: replay showing movie could have killed bunker with probes.. its had 14 hp left with 4 probes surrounding it, but movie retreated just before it would have died.
was thinking the same... probably his nerves got to him..
You'd think he'd be prepared for this sort of thing after practicing this strategy specifically for this game...
On February 07 2010 13:26 jiabung wrote: replay showing movie could have killed bunker with probes.. its had 14 hp left with 4 probes surrounding it, but movie retreated just before it would have died.
so close for movie, had the probes continued attacking, he would hold the expo...
Wouldn't he click on the bunker to see it's health when it's so close tho? =[
On February 07 2010 13:14 LipsOfDeceit wrote: Why does he do this nexus first shit, he's already shown he can hang with Flash in a straight up game, why go for the risky stuff .
You base that off one game on EOTS?
He was more than hanging with Flash in game 1 and 2. If Movie's execution had been slightly better, there was no reason he couldn't have taken those games. 12 nex clearly doesn't work for him, especially against Flash's ability to stop it.
He got a massive lead from a unorthodox strategy, not straight up, and still couldn't hang with Flash in game 1. None of Movie's attack dented Flash's army. Game 2 was not straight up either, lol.
I just wish he'd stop going 12 nex, he clearly has trouble with it.
I'm not claiming Movie is straight up better than Flash, he certainly isn't. Game 3 did show that he can hang in there, you can claim it was a single game but if he did it once there's no reason why he can't do it again. I just feel like he's better off trying a straight up game, where he can gain a lot of experience against a player of Flash's caliber and still have a chance, albeit it a small one, of winning the game. 12 nexus doesn't help his game, is clearly something he isn't great at defending early on and straight up play or strategic, unorthodox builds like the ones in G1+2 offer up a better chance of winning.
On February 07 2010 13:30 YPang wrote: it really makes no sense why flash would place a supply so far away from his CC... i duno how he can predict something like this.
its to scout an early gatewayrush-probe in his base.
On February 07 2010 13:38 Vasoline73 wrote: Hopefully Flash's over defense doesnt cost him the game. He just needs to play it smart and he shouldddddd be ok. Didn't lose that many SCVs...
Thing is he's flash so Snow can take 2:1 bases with flash and he'' win
he gets raped early game and then is just like "lol i guess ill win now"
the ogn commentators said in his game on hbr against movie "it seems like movie wrote a great situation but flash just tore it up and said 'nah son, mine is better' "
On February 07 2010 13:40 YPang wrote: yo snow sucks
You think another terran would've held that and done what flash can do?
Yes. He didn't seem that far behind. I'm not sure why so many people here are claiming the game would've been over for anyone else. Maybe if Stork had been on the Protoss side, but not with someone like Snow. He had no idea what to do with the advantage he got, and I'm pretty sure quite a few Terran players would've been able to push him back.
On February 07 2010 13:45 MrHoon wrote: If Flash doesn't take down Effort, I don't really see a chance KT will win
Luxury... JUST MAYBE. To be honest I give 815 more credit for his ZvZ than Luxury at this moment lol
Violet's PvZ is getting raped since 09
1). Flash is a pretty big favorite vs Effort at the moment >.>
2). Even if you gave Effort 70-80% odds vs the remaining 3 KT players individually then there's still a decent chance for one of the 3 to win. So if Flash loses they are not in terrible chance
On February 07 2010 13:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote: They should just send 815/HoeJJa/Lux is Flash is taken down by EffOrt since ZvZ is their best chance. EffOrt will lose one of those three games imo
flash's sieging and unsieging during that push when snow was trying to zealot bomb was soooo~ gosu. He didn't once splash his own tanks during the entire time despite having no anti-air whatsoever. It was pure amazing.
On February 07 2010 13:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote: They should just send 815/HoeJJa/Lux is Flash is taken down by EffOrt since ZvZ is their best chance. EffOrt will lose one of those three games imo
violet has shown some very nice pvz aswell....
I would credit violet if he isn't like 0-7 against effort lol
Impressive play by Flash, tho I can`t help feeling he got kinda lucky that zealot did not detonate those mines around his tank cluster at the ramp of his min only. So many of his tanks was in the red, he probably would have lost most of them and with them pretty much all hope of winning the game.
Also, Skyhigh is a monster TvTer. He's on a four game winning streak beating every TvTer of note not named Flash or Leta (who he 2-0'd a few weeks back in PL), against Light/Sea/Fantasy/Really.
Violet has been in a slump the last couple months. Really disappointing since I thought this was the starleague season he would break out and I believe he's already out of both.
On February 07 2010 13:50 StylishVODs wrote: Holy shit that was the best play I've ever seen from Flash.
Godly micro, that push where he always made sure to advance without getting damaged from zealbombs.
godly macro, wtf units just kept pouring in.
godly multitask, making scvs, facts and expanding at the same time wtf.
I'm amazed.
Flash is on godmode tonight, I expect an all kill.
Completely agree, it's too bad no one was in ventrilo to hear my Nerdgasms. Seriously though, Snow or not, every time I thought he was going to be in deep shit or even lose an edge, he proved me wrong. Vultures just keep pouring in, amazing mines, great focusing with tanks, on top of that he survived a 3-gate cheese and even missed Snow's third originally.
On February 07 2010 13:51 SimonB wrote: Violet has been in a slump the last couple months. Really disappointing since I thought this was the starleague season he would break out and I believe he's already out of both.
Violet and Flying will always be in my heart as protoss bonjwas
i really wonder why every1 is always talking about exhausting players by sending them victims before sending the big guns... those guys are progamers, they play sc for 10-18 hours a day. what makes people think that they would lose any kind of focus or stamina when playing 4 games of 10-30 mins in a row, with small breaks between them?
On February 07 2010 14:03 Black Gun wrote: i really wonder why every1 is always talking about exhausting players by sending them victims before sending the big guns... those guys are progamers, they play sc for 10-18 hours a day. what makes people think that they would lose any kind of focus or stamina when playing 4 games of 10-30 mins in a row, with small breaks between them?
Have you ever watched a Bo5? Stamina is definitely a factor.
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
Skyhigh has like 69% in TvT If he has 69% in TvZ/P He'd be good right?
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
Skyhigh has like 69% in TvT If he has 69% in TvZ/P He'd be good right?
Yeah, but Flash is 70% overall lifetime.
And anyway, even if SkyHigh could "transfer his skills," doesn't mean he'd be 69% in every match-up.
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
Skyhigh has like 69% in TvT If he has 69% in TvZ/P He'd be good right?
Yeah, but Flash is 70% overall lifetime.
And anyway, even if SkyHigh could "transfer his skills," doesn't mean he'd be 69% in every match-up.
Ok almost as good as Flash, If he plays his style in other MUs, he could probably do it.
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
Skyhigh has like 69% in TvT If he has 69% in TvZ/P He'd be good right?
Yeah, but Flash is 70% overall lifetime.
And anyway, even if SkyHigh could "transfer his skills," doesn't mean he'd be 69% in every match-up.
Ok almost as good as Flash, If he plays his style in other MUs, he could probably do it.
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
Skyhigh has like 69% in TvT If he has 69% in TvZ/P He'd be good right?
Yeah, but Flash is 70% overall lifetime.
And anyway, even if SkyHigh could "transfer his skills," doesn't mean he'd be 69% in every match-up.
Ok almost as good as Flash, If he plays his style in other MUs, he could probably do it.
On February 07 2010 14:25 Gao Xi wrote: skyhigh needs to translate his TvT beasting skills to TvP and TvZ. Then he'd be better then Flash
Uhm, I love SkyHigh, but, uhm, Flash is the number TvT player of all time? One of the top 4 TvZ players of all time? One of the top TvP players of all time?
Skyhigh has like 69% in TvT If he has 69% in TvZ/P He'd be good right?
Yeah, but Flash is 70% overall lifetime.
And anyway, even if SkyHigh could "transfer his skills," doesn't mean he'd be 69% in every match-up.
Ok almost as good as Flash, If he plays his style in other MUs, he could probably do it.
i think his style is not adaptable enough
skyhigh is more like fantasy than flash
His aggressive style seems more applicable in TvZ, than TvP
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
All of the KT tosses have flashes of brilliance, but are incomplete in different ways. I still think Violet has by far the most potential even if he's slumping now.
On February 07 2010 15:39 SimonB wrote: All of the KT tosses have flashes of brilliance, but are incomplete in different ways. I still think Violet has by far the most potential even if he's slumping now.
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
On February 07 2010 15:33 LecafOz wrote: Where can i see vod's? Any links ? --
If you really want it fast wfbrood.com use google to translate and pray the games you want to watch aren't commentated as this is a Chinese site so the overlapping Korean and Chinese hurts. Though I've actually gotten used to it.
On February 07 2010 15:51 IntoTheWow wrote: Set 3 is probably one of the best TvTs in the past months. Action packed, tense, high level play.
This one was pretty sweet, but I personally preferred FBH vs UpMagic
edit: nvm you said one of the best ^^ yes i agree
Yeah FBH vs UpMagic was probably better. But you don't find good TvT like these. I would really recommend it, even if you don't like the match up. (both of them)
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
i lol'd
Howso?
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ:
Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups.
All the rest all in or cheese games.
This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all.
Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches.
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist?
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist?
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too..
that and July/Bogus/FrOzen
STX will win proleague unless they bring the super ace match back, and even then they could still win 2 Bo7s
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist?
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches.
ya but KT is still KTF and they will never win PL ever.
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
i lol'd
Howso?
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ:
Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups.
All the rest all in or cheese games.
This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all.
Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth.
But KT? no way.
kt isnt quite on the level of stx but they're certainly far better in terms of depth than hwaseung. hwaseung might hold up to them for the top 2, and personally id put alot more faith in violet than hiya in most scenarios, but after that hwaseung has literally nothing while kt has a group of pretty solid players. killer ggaemo perfectman lomo vs lux hoejja 815 firefist stats forgg is a very solid win for kt. honestly if a few of t1's players slump at the same time, as all of them seem prone to do, kt would be up there with them as well. best bisu fantasy canata hyuk is pretty scary until you realize that theyre almost never playing up to their abilities all at the same time.
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
i lol'd
Howso?
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ:
Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups.
All the rest all in or cheese games.
This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all.
Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth.
But KT? no way.
Mehhhh.
KT has Z, T, and P snipers who are good in the MU. I think calling them an Oz equivalent is selling them really short. It's like saying STX is just Calm (as long as he's not facing an S class terran right?), Kal if he's having a good day, Hwasin if he can cheese a zerg, Hero if he faces a protoss player and then a bunch of all in and cheese games from everyone else. That's not the team at all but it could be spun that way
KT is deep because it has matchup specialists who are good and a high team moral that's pushing them this season. I mean you have Flash who's a favorite verses anyone, then a bunch of strong upcoming players who preform well + old players who can still take games off people. Violet, Stats, and ForGG are terran snipers... Lux, Firefist, 815, and ForGG are zerg snipers... and then Violet, Hoejja, Stats, and Lux are protoss snipers. Of course some of the players have to rely on getting their ideal MU (Hoejja anyone?) or getting ideal practice time and a good build (ForGG) but I would say that KT is about or maybe a little less deep than any team out there.
The best ace and then solid support. Sounds deep enough to me.
I'm obviously a KT fan so I have bias but I would take: Flash Luxury Violet Stats Hoejja 815 ForGG
in a Bo7 over
Calm Kal Hwasin Shuttle Bogus Hero Frozen
anytime. And even without bias you can see that that MU would be pretty evenly matched in terms of depth. Maybe throw Shuttle out for July but July hasn't been played in PL for almost a year now -_-;;;;.
As for SKT, they have 4 solid players which is enough for a Bo7, but no solid zerg player, which is losing alot of depth in my mind. Hyuk is a ZvZ sniper, but KT has too many Z to snipe lol, and they all tend to be good ZvZ'ers themselves. +Plus like Idra said, they are usually not on the same page and usually in different periods of slumps.
In general I think it's just the way you look at it. EDIT: lol a bunch of posts before I got to reply lol
Flash > Kal (invincible Flash) Luxury > Bogus (Luxury has good TvZ often enough) Violet > Hwasin (Hwasin playing a protoss nowadays doesn't inspire confidence) Stats > Frozen (Stats is really good PvT) Hoejja > Shuttle (Hoejja is good vP) 815 > Calm (ZvZ snipe) ForGG > Hero (I would favor ForGG in this MU)
is totally possible and easily believable for instance.
As is...
Flash < Hwasin (BBS v 14CC obv) Luxury < Frozen (sunk break or Lux fail) Violet < Calm (Violet tends to have a sloppy early game which good zergs capitalize on) Stats < Kal (Stats beat Jangbi in MSL but Kal is probably always a favorite) Hoejja < Hero (Hoejja shows weak ZvZ often) 815 < Bogus (815 vT not on bluestorm?) ForGG < Shuttle (ForGG vs average protoss?)
Every team relies on getting good maps and MU for their players.. don't see how that makes them less deep
honestly STX having a LITTLE bit of a rough spot lately and only Kal is performing up to snuff. hero is slumping (not that he ever was really THAT good), hwasin CANT be doing too good if frozean is played over him so much, and calm keeps getting lamed vs Terran (3 of his last 4 ZvTs were vs bunker rushes, and the other vs gogo he admittedly played pretty risky but lost to a sunken bust that he didnt scout by ONE MATRIX and got ebayed in his nat). If calm starts 9pooling once in a while vs terran though, I think STX will be fine again.
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
i lol'd
Howso?
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ:
Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups.
All the rest all in or cheese games.
This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all.
Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth.
But KT? no way.
kt isnt quite on the level of stx but they're certainly far better in terms of depth than hwaseung. hwaseung might hold up to them for the top 2, and personally id put alot more faith in violet than hiya in most scenarios, but after that hwaseung has literally nothing while kt has a group of pretty solid players. killer ggaemo perfectman lomo vs lux hoejja 815 firefist stats forgg is a very solid win for kt. honestly if a few of t1's players slump at the same time, as all of them seem prone to do, kt would be up there with them as well. best bisu fantasy canata hyuk is pretty scary until you realize that theyre almost never playing up to their abilities all at the same time.
yeah but Bisu/Best/Fantasy is honestly about the same as Flash/Luxury/ForGG if you want to assume all players are at their peak. Canata/Hyuk isn't much of a match for the remaining combo of Violet/Stats (particularly) It also doesn't help that SKT would have to field a garbage player in the sixth slot (assuming seventh match is an ace) whereas KT would have 815/hoejja/tempest who are all pretty solid in their own respects.
Too bad ForGG is never coming back, which kind of makes this moot. =(
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist?
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches.
HyuK is way better than all of KT's Zergs.
You jut compared Bisu/BeSt/Fantasy/Canata to Flash/Luxury/Violet/Stats? lol
Yeah KT is such a strongest team in playoffs, that's why we didn't see them there last year? They didn't even go past the bo5 rounds and you expect them to do good in a bo7?
Luxury is increibly inconsistent, probably one of the most inconsistent players out there. STX is a favourite over KT in a bo7 any day.
KT doesnt have a reliable zerg, his Protosses are decent but they are not good all around, just in some match ups. The only solid player KT has is Flash, the rest depends too much on maps and match ups to call that "depth".
On February 07 2010 16:54 Vasoline73 wrote: Flash > Kal (invincible Flash) Luxury > Bogus (Luxury has good TvZ often enough) Violet > Hwasin (Hwasin playing a protoss nowadays doesn't inspire confidence) Stats > Frozen (Stats is really good PvT) Hoejja > Shuttle (Hoejja is good vP) 815 > Calm (ZvZ snipe) ForGG > Hero (I would favor ForGG in this MU)
is totally possible and easily believable for instance.
As is...
Flash < Hwasin (BBS v 14CC obv) Luxury < Frozen (sunk break or Lux fail) Violet < Calm (Violet tends to have a sloppy early game which good zergs capitalize on) Stats < Kal (Stats beat Jangbi in MSL but Kal is probably always a favorite) Hoejja < Hero (Hoejja shows weak ZvZ often) 815 < Bogus (815 vT not on bluestorm?) ForGG < Shuttle (ForGG vs average protoss?)
Every team relies on getting good maps and MU for their players.. don't see how that makes them less deep
lol I guess anything is possible but it's Frozen -_- give me a break. Well then again Jaehoon is godly now hmmm...
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
i lol'd
Howso?
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ:
Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups.
All the rest all in or cheese games.
This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all.
Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth.
But KT? no way.
kt isnt quite on the level of stx but they're certainly far better in terms of depth than hwaseung. hwaseung might hold up to them for the top 2, and personally id put alot more faith in violet than hiya in most scenarios, but after that hwaseung has literally nothing while kt has a group of pretty solid players. killer ggaemo perfectman lomo vs lux hoejja 815 firefist stats forgg is a very solid win for kt. honestly if a few of t1's players slump at the same time, as all of them seem prone to do, kt would be up there with them as well. best bisu fantasy canata hyuk is pretty scary until you realize that theyre almost never playing up to their abilities all at the same time.
I didn't mean to put Oz and KT's players' skill at the same level but the way the would play a playoffs.
I would favour KT too in front of Oz (thought remember what happened last Playoffs).
Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7.
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7.
thing is we can make a case for KT too.
Flash is a beast and can beat anyone on STX. Stats will own all STX T's. Violet own anyone on STX that isnt a zerg. Hoejja can kill a P bla bla bla...
as someone above already stated, it really all comes down to the lineup.
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7.
On February 07 2010 15:05 kyzers0ze wrote: im kinda sad stats is taking violet's place
You should never be sad that KT has yet another A rank player who can crush nooblets.
This gives KT 3 protoss options, 4 zerg options, and 2/3 Terran options (depending on if Suny is playable). Deepest team by a lot and Violet will still see games. He wasn't being played in the ace match a lot the last 2 rounds just for show.
i lol'd
Howso?
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ:
Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups.
All the rest all in or cheese games.
This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all.
Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth.
But KT? no way.
Mehhhh.
KT has Z, T, and P snipers who are good in the MU. I think calling them an Oz equivalent is selling them really short. It's like saying STX is just Calm (as long as he's not facing an S class terran right?), Kal if he's having a good day, Hwasin if he can cheese a zerg, Hero if he faces a protoss player and then a bunch of all in and cheese games from everyone else. That's not the team at all but it could be spun that way
KT is deep because it has matchup specialists who are good and a high team moral that's pushing them this season. I mean you have Flash who's a favorite verses anyone, then a bunch of strong upcoming players who preform well + old players who can still take games off people. Violet, Stats, and ForGG are terran snipers... Lux, Firefist, 815, and ForGG are zerg snipers... and then Violet, Hoejja, Stats, and Lux are protoss snipers. Of course some of the players have to rely on getting their ideal MU (Hoejja anyone?) or getting ideal practice time and a good build (ForGG) but I would say that KT is about or maybe a little less deep than any team out there.
The best ace and then solid support. Sounds deep enough to me.
I'm obviously a KT fan so I have bias but I would take: Flash Luxury Violet Stats Hoejja 815 ForGG
in a Bo7 over
Calm Kal Hwasin Shuttle Bogus Hero Frozen
anytime. And even without bias you can see that that MU would be pretty evenly matched in terms of depth. Maybe throw Shuttle out for July but July hasn't been played in PL for almost a year now -_-;;;;.
As for SKT, they have 4 solid players which is enough for a Bo7, but no solid zerg player, which is losing alot of depth in my mind. Hyuk is a ZvZ sniper, but KT has too many Z to snipe lol, and they all tend to be good ZvZ'ers themselves. +Plus like Idra said, they are usually not on the same page and usually in different periods of slumps.
In general I think it's just the way you look at it. EDIT: lol a bunch of posts before I got to reply lol
I will try to be as unbiased in this conversation. i think that ktf has a very in depth team and if i am wrong please tell me where i went wrong. maybe they are the team with the most depth and maybe not, but in my opinion, they are definitely up in the top three teams when comparing depth.
And in a BO7, I would most likely pick KTF over any other team, but that could be arguable with STX and SKT.
If I could pick the lineup for KTF's bo7, it would look like this and I believe its probably one of the most in depth line ups
Barracks / 815 -(Barracks) You have rookies like barracks who I will admit gave Jangbi a shot in the BO3 in the ro32 in the OSL and played an amazing comeback game against MVP. even though its too early to say how good he is, its obvious that hes been getting the best terran experience from the non-other than flash. I will say that I believe barracks has strong potential to be a great player. -(815)-Even though I cant say he always plays like the way he did on the map blue storm, hes still a legitimate player. He has exceptional zvz, and his zvp and zvt could be better but still he is a legitimate PL player.
Tempest-hes not really around lately, but of course his macro is something to be feared. the commentators say that his macro is from his near perfect zealot to dragoon ratio or something similar to that. as well, sometimes his micro can be quite stunning. Tempest vs Light--> epic 33 (I believe) dragoon anyone? Hes taken out jaedong in a bo3 also if it means much to you all (but it was in gom so jaedong probably didnt even care about it)
Stats- also by beating skyhigh and effort, two of cj's aces, stats has shown strong performance. his run in the msl exceeded my expectations. he beat fantasy and july, two players who are very strong in the vP matchup. the last match between july and stats was amazing, especially with his reaver control. also, he took out jangbi in a bo3. its not bad.
hoejja-the hive tech beast. i orgasm whenever i see him go into hive mode, especially versus protoss. his recent game vs hiya and kal really impressed me. versus hiya, an odd tactic that won him the game by throwing hiya off guard (and hiya was being pretty stupid also) and against kal, hoejja's abillity to attack many places at once. (also displayed vs bisu in the winners league) hes pretty inconsistent, but i would say hes an excellent sniper.
luxury-yes he is chance park, and he loves his all-in builds. you can say he sucks asshole, but he still rakes in the wins. and also he fucks with your mind because hes the kind of player you cant read. hes kind of like nal_ra. u cant really anticipate what he will do. before even starting the game, he has a grasp on your mind. hes one the most reliable players to pull an upset with his consistent random builds.
violet- violet is on a small losing streak but i wouldnt say hes on a slump. his loss to hydra and action were upsetting, and the game against calm he got caught unprepared, and against hiya he blew the lead. he still gets shaky at times. but regardless, its stupid to say hes not a strong proleague player. he has had excellent streaks and excellent games. i would say the two most meorable games RECENTLY were against great and against hyuk. check those out
flash- flash.
i hope ive made a point and by that i mean i hope that no one thinks kt doesnt have an in depth team. nowadays, even non-kt fans have recognized many of kt's unknown players.
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT.
Calm got 2-0ed by Lux in the most recent WCG Korea (and is 0-4 against him in career) Kal is known for being very inconsistent and calling him the best PvT is a huge stretch with Stork, Jangbi, and Best all showing strong vT almost always. Kal on his good day could beat anyone, but Kal usually isnt having great days. Hwasin is easily sniped by a good P
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7.
Flash is the favorite over anyone in STX. Lux is a good match for either Calm, Kal, or Hwasin. Violet and Stats are good matches for everyone on STX that isn't Calm, and maybe By.Hero (Kal is still a favorite but not by much). Modesty is a ZvZ sniper akin to 815, only not as good. Shuttle is solid, I'd put him a bit below the level of Stats/Violet. Frozen is kind of like Forgg, usually pretty awful but surprisingly capable sometimes.
I mean we could play the match ups game but here's how I'd order the top few players on the teams:
Flash Calm Kal Luxury Violet/Stats Stats/Violet (This one is up in the air, we haven't seen Stats a lot but there's something there) Hwasin Shuttle
That's probably the top four for each team and I think it's a pretty fair assumption. Flash is the best, but Calm and Kal are pretty close behind. After that KT is probably heavily favorited over STX's next two in Hwasin and Shuttle (Mostly because Stats and/or Violet given the day have been wrecking PvT and PvP, Stats more recently but violet overall).
After that both teams have a lot of playable zergs that are hard to rank -- Hero's probably the best but July and Modesty aren't much to talk about. July's a good ZvP sniper, but Hoejja's a better ZvP sniper (Hero is better than both), Modesty's an alright ZvZ sniper, 815 is much better, and Firefist is a pretty decent all around player.
Then you've got the other wildcards, in Frozean/Bogus and Forgg/Tempest.
I'd say they're pretty closely matched. You could give favor to either team given on the map set up -- I think in a very zerg favorited map pool STX probably has the lead with Calm/Hero over Lux/[insert KT zerg here, probably 815 if it's a zerg map). Terran maps, I'd give it to KT since Flash is as close to a guaranteed win in PL as you can get, and ForGG is alright, probably worse than Hwasin and better than Frozean. Protoss favored it gets close, Kal is assuredly better than Stats/Violet, but not by a whole lot, and then Shuttle is pretty solid but definitely worse than the KT protosses.
tl;dr pretty closely matched and it would basically come down to the match card to see which team is favorited. I think it's telling though that KT beat STX in R1 and R2 recently with their newly improved line up, though. You can chalk it up to momentum and Flash churning wins, but Flash hasn't had to ace match it up a lot and that's because KT has been way more solid.
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT.
Calm got 2-0ed by Lux in the most recent WCG Korea (and is 0-4 against him in career) Kal is known for being very inconsistent and calling him the best PvT is a huge stretch with Stork, Jangbi, and Best all showing strong vT almost always. Kal on his good day could beat anyone, but Kal usually isnt having great days. Hwasin is easily sniped by a good P
Again not so clear cut right?
calm beat effort, jaedong, and kwanro in bos, and has better records this season than all of them and luxury. he also has an 80% zvp record in this past year
kal is over 70% this past year in pvt and pvp, so he's actually the most consistently good protoss at the moment, and his pvz is pretty good too, he just 2-0ed hoejja for example
dunno if you buy the guemchi hype, but hwasin knocked him out of both leagues
On February 07 2010 17:08 jalstar wrote: Calm has the best ZvZ out of anyone and could crush any of KT's zergs. Probably protoss too. Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT.
Calm got 2-0ed by Lux in the most recent WCG Korea (and is 0-4 against him in career) Kal is known for being very inconsistent and calling him the best PvT is a huge stretch with Stork, Jangbi, and Best all showing strong vT almost always. Kal on his good day could beat anyone, but Kal usually isnt having great days. Hwasin is easily sniped by a good P
Again not so clear cut right?
calm beat effort, jaedong, and kwanro in bos, and has better records this season than all of them and luxury. he also has an 80% zvp record in this past year
kal is over 70% this past year in pvt and pvp, so he's actually the most consistently good protoss at the moment, and his pvz is pretty good too, he just 2-0ed hoejja for example
dunno if you buy the guemchi hype, but hwasin knocked him out of both leagues
Stop basing all your arguments on just stats. You can't say one person is better than another because he beat him in a BoX a few months ago. Rock beat Jaedong in a Bo5 Kal isnt even close to #1 PvT. Stork just outclasses him and one could argue that Bisu, Best and Jangbi are all above him. He's got good win% this year, but he's beaten none of the great vP terran players. his biggest accomplishment in that MU is wins vs Leta, who sucks vP, while he is 1-3 vs Fantasy and Really, the only real challenges
Why people make fun of Leta's TvP! It's strong! Leta is good at everything he does, his hands are so insanely fast.
I popped in to say LOL! Only Skyhigh was on my fpl. That kid is the best TvT sniper IN THE WORLD. He took down Flash, Sea, Light, Fantasy(x2), Really in his last 5. Uh.. that's about everyone in the MU. Only Leta, Firebathero, Upmagic and Hwasin, and I think he's scalped every T ace in TvT.
Depth isn't everything in winner's league. Hwaseung was one game away from winning the whole thing last year with one great player and one good player (Jaedong and Hiya). Obviously CJ's depth paid off (Savior/Effort/Iris/SkyHigh is very strong), but Hwaseung came awfully close to winning.
Winner's league is really anybody's game. There are at least 5 teams that can field monster line-ups. It only takes 4 wins to take a match and those wins can come from anybody.
In no particular order:
1. OZ with Jaedong, Hiya (just look at last year) 2. KT with Flash, Lux, Violet, Stats and a whole slew of situationally useful players (Hoejja ZvP, 815 ZvZ, Tempest PvT, etc) 3. SKT with Bisu, Fantasy, Best, Canata, Hyuk ZvZ/P 4. STX with Calm, Kal, Hwasin, and an alarming number of snipers 5. CJ with Skyhigh, Movie, Effort, Iris, and who knows what up-and-coming youngster will suddenly reverse all-kill in the finals
KT has a slight edge over the other teams because they're on fire and they have Flash (although on paper they're no better than SKT/STX), but all the other teams are powerful threats in a Bo7 and there's just no knowing who will win. Arguing over which team is "deepest" is pretty pointless IMO because random shit happens all the time in winner's league (who needs depth when you have GUEMCHI??!). Even people like Killer and Perfectman can step up their game and make an impact on a Bo7. I don't even try to predict what will happen in winner's league --- I just sit back and watch the circus.
On February 08 2010 05:53 Djabanete wrote: who needs depth when you have GUEMCHI??!
^this +1 No one should talk about depth anymore, it's just a way for lesser teams to feel like they are better because they have more scrubs for Guemchi to kill. end of argument. It's like even though KT is completely owning everyone this season, "hey my number 9 team has more DEPTH THAN U HAHAHHA but yeah we are like almost dead last" QQ MORE GUEMCHIZZLE LOVES IT.
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist?
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches.
HyuK is way better than all of KT's Zergs.
You jut compared Bisu/BeSt/Fantasy/Canata to Flash/Luxury/Violet/Stats? lol
Yeah KT is such a strongest team in playoffs, that's why we didn't see them there last year? They didn't even go past the bo5 rounds and you expect them to do good in a bo7?
Luxury is increibly inconsistent, probably one of the most inconsistent players out there. STX is a favourite over KT in a bo7 any day.
KT doesnt have a reliable zerg, his Protosses are decent but they are not good all around, just in some match ups. The only solid player KT has is Flash, the rest depends too much on maps and match ups to call that "depth".
Last year they didn't have half of these players playing well until the fourth/fifth rounds? Are you really forgetful or something?
And Hyuk is not better than Luxury. Hyuk isn't even close. Hyuk had one break out month and then proceeded to play the same way he's played the last 2 years -- like garbage, worse than ALL of KT's zergs.
KT has been stomping through PL and is still undefeated in WL this year. Flash is obviously the best and most consistent player on KT -- he's the best and most consistent player in PL. But they've won the vast majority of their games without an ace match, and I mean the VAST majority. Flash had to win ace like 4 times against Fantasy(after he lost the first game, meaning KT picked up 2 wins on SKT), Sea(Again, when he lost to Hyun, meaning KT took 2 games without Flash against the current #2 team), and against Stork and Calm where he had to win 2 games in the night. That's 22 PL games, and only 2 in which Flash had to win 2 games.
And you know what else? Flash hasn't even had to play all the ace games. Violet was put in for ace twice against Leta and Mind, respectfully, and picked up both games. KT has been amazing and I'll be damned if I put up with people calling them lacking for the first time since like 2005 that they've been absolutely astounding.
You can call inconsistency all you want, but every one of the teams you can list that's "more deep" than KT has horrible inconsistency problems. SKT has barely ever been all on the same page, recently with Bisu, and in the past with Best and Fantasy. STX is home to resident "ace" protoss player Kal, easily the most inconsistent dragon around, and Calm, who is Calm sometimes and Clam half the time. Hwasin is consistent in so much as he's always been mediocre to good, which is fine.
KT is just as strong as any team and their stats show it. You're thinking way too hard about last season where KT was just developing their currently dominant line up. I'm not saying KT is invincible, but I'm sure as hell saying you're completely and utterly wrong when you say things like "Hyuk is better than every KT zerg." And that Canata is legitimately better than Stats/Violet.
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist?
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers.
That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of)
STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.
In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches.
HyuK is way better than all of KT's Zergs.
You jut compared Bisu/BeSt/Fantasy/Canata to Flash/Luxury/Violet/Stats? lol
Yeah KT is such a strongest team in playoffs, that's why we didn't see them there last year? They didn't even go past the bo5 rounds and you expect them to do good in a bo7?
Luxury is increibly inconsistent, probably one of the most inconsistent players out there. STX is a favourite over KT in a bo7 any day.
KT doesnt have a reliable zerg, his Protosses are decent but they are not good all around, just in some match ups. The only solid player KT has is Flash, the rest depends too much on maps and match ups to call that "depth".
Last year they didn't have half of these players playing well until the fourth/fifth rounds? Are you really forgetful or something?
And Hyuk is not better than Luxury. Hyuk isn't even close. Hyuk had one break out month and then proceeded to play the same way he's played the last 2 years -- like garbage, worse than ALL of KT's zergs.
KT has been stomping through PL and is still undefeated in WL this year. Flash is obviously the best and most consistent player on KT -- he's the best and most consistent player in PL. But they've won the vast majority of their games without an ace match, and I mean the VAST majority. Flash had to win ace like 4 times against Fantasy(after he lost the first game, meaning KT picked up 2 wins on SKT), Sea(Again, when he lost to Hyun, meaning KT took 2 games without Flash against the current #2 team), and against Stork and Calm where he had to win 2 games in the night. That's 22 PL games, and only 2 in which Flash had to win 2 games.
And you know what else? Flash hasn't even had to play all the ace games. Violet was put in for ace twice against Leta and Mind, respectfully, and picked up both games. KT has been amazing and I'll be damned if I put up with people calling them lacking for the first time since like 2005 that they've been absolutely astounding.
You can call inconsistency all you want, but every one of the teams you can list that's "more deep" than KT has horrible inconsistency problems. SKT has barely ever been all on the same page, recently with Bisu, and in the past with Best and Fantasy. STX is home to resident "ace" protoss player Kal, easily the most inconsistent dragon around, and Calm, who is Calm sometimes and Clam half the time. Hwasin is consistent in so much as he's always been mediocre to good, which is fine.
KT is just as strong as any team and their stats show it. You're thinking way too hard about last season where KT was just developing their currently dominant line up. I'm not saying KT is invincible, but I'm sure as hell saying you're completely and utterly wrong when you say things like "Hyuk is better than every KT zerg." And that Canata is legitimately better than Stats/Violet.
tl;dr: KT is the best >:[ *raaant*
^Legit rant. KT is number 1 right now so they are the best team, so for all of u haters, stop talking about deepness people please just look at the stats for once and see how many kills flash ACTUALLY has been getting. Also look at the overwhelming dominance of KT as a whole. Honestly, it's like if a team has a super ace they aren't deep. No. wrong. It seems that these teams are less deep because they got some insanely good player, people think they depend on him and oh he wins all the games. Deep teams have good players as well but no one really sticks out which is why people think they are more "rounded and balanced or deep". Look at the actual games, stats, and wins please please please please PLEASE before u start bashing KT deepness and bringing up your "deepness" from your number 9 ranked team or something
I just think Stats is getting better and better if you look at his records hes only lost to a+ players since the start of 2009 hes actually won alot more games then lost agasint em. Just hoping he will keep it up.
I'm more impress with game 1, 2, & 4 than game 3. Game 3 was basically Flash losing from the early harass and the remaining 90% of the time SkyHigh attempting to stop Flash from coming back.
Game 2 is the highlight of the series for me. Incredible star sense and brillance from Flash. Even though Flash scanned an empty 3rd, somehow he just knew it was up somewhere. Any other terran would have died to the 3 gate push. Any other terran at the mineral only ramp would suffer a greater or major delay in push timing. Any other terran at the 2nd expo would their push broken to the zealot drop and goon/zealot defense on level ground.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/keit/Proleague0910.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/9.jpg)
vs. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/564.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2780/4270138554_182b8f6714_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
Movie < New Tornado > 
Flash![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4270138486_fa49e5b17a_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4270138564_e2f4db281d_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4298233007_a8f48c0585_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4270138498_55d0c9b2b1_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4298241699_df9ec0ba14_o.jpg)
Effort < Neo Moon Glaive > 
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![[image loading]](http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6341/cjcoach.jpg)
