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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On February 07 2010 15:57 PiePie wrote: This one was pretty sweet, but I personally preferred FBH vs UpMagic edit: nvm you said one of the best ^^ yes i agree Yeah FBH vs UpMagic was probably better. But you don't find good TvT like these. I would really recommend it, even if you don't like the match up. (both of them) | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ: Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups. All the rest all in or cheese games. This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all. Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth. But KT? no way. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers. That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of) STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too. In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches. | ||
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
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cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist? Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers. That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of) STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too. you forgot HYUK | ||
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
I take back everything I said +1 | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I obviously don't include bonjwas in these lists!! But it's true, he's kind of like 815 in that he's a good ZvZ sniper. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too.. that and July/Bogus/FrOzen STX will win proleague unless they bring the super ace match back, and even then they could still win 2 Bo7s | ||
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Ideas
United States8114 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist? Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers. That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of) STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too. In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches. ya but KT is still KTF and they will never win PL ever. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:14 IntoTheWow wrote: Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ: Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups. All the rest all in or cheese games. This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all. Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth. But KT? no way. kt isnt quite on the level of stx but they're certainly far better in terms of depth than hwaseung. hwaseung might hold up to them for the top 2, and personally id put alot more faith in violet than hiya in most scenarios, but after that hwaseung has literally nothing while kt has a group of pretty solid players. killer ggaemo perfectman lomo vs lux hoejja 815 firefist stats forgg is a very solid win for kt. honestly if a few of t1's players slump at the same time, as all of them seem prone to do, kt would be up there with them as well. best bisu fantasy canata hyuk is pretty scary until you realize that theyre almost never playing up to their abilities all at the same time. | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7802 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:14 IntoTheWow wrote: Depth? come on man. How do you see KT in a bo7 in the playoffs? I see them them similar to OZ: Flash on a map to take a good player of the opposing team. Lux and Violet on maps where they can get their good match ups. All the rest all in or cheese games. This is probably going to draw a lot of KT fans fire, but oh well. I don't see KT as a deep team at all. Deep teams are STX and T1 for example. Even Woongjin (thought of lower level) has certain depth. But KT? no way. Mehhhh. KT has Z, T, and P snipers who are good in the MU. I think calling them an Oz equivalent is selling them really short. It's like saying STX is just Calm (as long as he's not facing an S class terran right?), Kal if he's having a good day, Hwasin if he can cheese a zerg, Hero if he faces a protoss player and then a bunch of all in and cheese games from everyone else. That's not the team at all but it could be spun that way KT is deep because it has matchup specialists who are good and a high team moral that's pushing them this season. I mean you have Flash who's a favorite verses anyone, then a bunch of strong upcoming players who preform well + old players who can still take games off people. Violet, Stats, and ForGG are terran snipers... Lux, Firefist, 815, and ForGG are zerg snipers... and then Violet, Hoejja, Stats, and Lux are protoss snipers. Of course some of the players have to rely on getting their ideal MU (Hoejja anyone?) or getting ideal practice time and a good build (ForGG) but I would say that KT is about or maybe a little less deep than any team out there. The best ace and then solid support. Sounds deep enough to me. I'm obviously a KT fan so I have bias but I would take: Flash Luxury Violet Stats Hoejja 815 ForGG in a Bo7 over Calm Kal Hwasin Shuttle Bogus Hero Frozen anytime. And even without bias you can see that that MU would be pretty evenly matched in terms of depth. Maybe throw Shuttle out for July but July hasn't been played in PL for almost a year now -_-;;;;. As for SKT, they have 4 solid players which is enough for a Bo7, but no solid zerg player, which is losing alot of depth in my mind. Hyuk is a ZvZ sniper, but KT has too many Z to snipe lol, and they all tend to be good ZvZ'ers themselves. +Plus like Idra said, they are usually not on the same page and usually in different periods of slumps. In general I think it's just the way you look at it. EDIT: lol a bunch of posts before I got to reply lol | ||
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Fx_
503 Posts
On February 07 2010 14:54 IntoTheWow wrote: GO EFFORT CRUSH THIS NEWBIE LOL | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7802 Posts
Luxury > Bogus (Luxury has good TvZ often enough) Violet > Hwasin (Hwasin playing a protoss nowadays doesn't inspire confidence) Stats > Frozen (Stats is really good PvT) Hoejja > Shuttle (Hoejja is good vP) 815 > Calm (ZvZ snipe) ForGG > Hero (I would favor ForGG in this MU) is totally possible and easily believable for instance. As is... Flash < Hwasin (BBS v 14CC obv) Luxury < Frozen (sunk break or Lux fail) Violet < Calm (Violet tends to have a sloppy early game which good zergs capitalize on) Stats < Kal (Stats beat Jangbi in MSL but Kal is probably always a favorite) Hoejja < Hero (Hoejja shows weak ZvZ often) 815 < Bogus (815 vT not on bluestorm?) ForGG < Shuttle (ForGG vs average protoss?) Every team relies on getting good maps and MU for their players.. don't see how that makes them less deep  | ||
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Ideas
United States8114 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:31 IdrA wrote: kt isnt quite on the level of stx but they're certainly far better in terms of depth than hwaseung. hwaseung might hold up to them for the top 2, and personally id put alot more faith in violet than hiya in most scenarios, but after that hwaseung has literally nothing while kt has a group of pretty solid players. killer ggaemo perfectman lomo vs lux hoejja 815 firefist stats forgg is a very solid win for kt. honestly if a few of t1's players slump at the same time, as all of them seem prone to do, kt would be up there with them as well. best bisu fantasy canata hyuk is pretty scary until you realize that theyre almost never playing up to their abilities all at the same time. yeah but Bisu/Best/Fantasy is honestly about the same as Flash/Luxury/ForGG if you want to assume all players are at their peak. Canata/Hyuk isn't much of a match for the remaining combo of Violet/Stats (particularly) It also doesn't help that SKT would have to field a garbage player in the sixth slot (assuming seventh match is an ace) whereas KT would have 815/hoejja/tempest who are all pretty solid in their own respects. Too bad ForGG is never coming back, which kind of makes this moot. =( | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, stats? Firefist? Hoejja and 815 are excellent snipers. That aside, I get where you're coming from with STX, but SKT? They've got 3 to 4 legit players at any given time, with Bisu/Best/Fantasy and Canata on a good day. KT has Flash, Luxury, Violet, Stats to match, and their reserves (Hoejja/815/Firefist/Tempest/Forgg) are better than SKT's (uh, N.die.soo, TheZerg, mong? That's all I can think of) STX was fair because they have Calm/Kal/Hwasin as a good starting trio and their backups in Shuttle/Hero/Last/Modesty are pretty good, but I think it's pretty safe to say that KT is the favorite there, too. In a Bo3 of Bo7s where KT can play their really solid starting 3/4 and mix it up with their enormous roster of legitimate players is probably WHY they're the strongest looking Playoff team. They don't have 2 absolute aces like Bisu/Fantasy, (well they kind of do when Lux feels like it but I've learned the hard way not to bank on Lux), but KT has WAAAAY more solid players to stretch between a total of 21 possibles matches. HyuK is way better than all of KT's Zergs. You jut compared Bisu/BeSt/Fantasy/Canata to Flash/Luxury/Violet/Stats? lol Yeah KT is such a strongest team in playoffs, that's why we didn't see them there last year? They didn't even go past the bo5 rounds and you expect them to do good in a bo7? Luxury is increibly inconsistent, probably one of the most inconsistent players out there. STX is a favourite over KT in a bo7 any day. KT doesnt have a reliable zerg, his Protosses are decent but they are not good all around, just in some match ups. The only solid player KT has is Flash, the rest depends too much on maps and match ups to call that "depth". | ||
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:54 Vasoline73 wrote: Flash > Kal (invincible Flash) Luxury > Bogus (Luxury has good TvZ often enough) Violet > Hwasin (Hwasin playing a protoss nowadays doesn't inspire confidence) Stats > Frozen (Stats is really good PvT) Hoejja > Shuttle (Hoejja is good vP) 815 > Calm (ZvZ snipe) ForGG > Hero (I would favor ForGG in this MU) is totally possible and easily believable for instance. As is... Flash < Hwasin (BBS v 14CC obv) Luxury < Frozen (sunk break or Lux fail) Violet < Calm (Violet tends to have a sloppy early game which good zergs capitalize on) Stats < Kal (Stats beat Jangbi in MSL but Kal is probably always a favorite) Hoejja < Hero (Hoejja shows weak ZvZ often) 815 < Bogus (815 vT not on bluestorm?) ForGG < Shuttle (ForGG vs average protoss?) Every team relies on getting good maps and MU for their players.. don't see how that makes them less deep lol I guess anything is possible but it's Frozen -_- give me a break. Well then again Jaehoon is godly now hmmm... | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On February 07 2010 16:31 IdrA wrote: kt isnt quite on the level of stx but they're certainly far better in terms of depth than hwaseung. hwaseung might hold up to them for the top 2, and personally id put alot more faith in violet than hiya in most scenarios, but after that hwaseung has literally nothing while kt has a group of pretty solid players. killer ggaemo perfectman lomo vs lux hoejja 815 firefist stats forgg is a very solid win for kt. honestly if a few of t1's players slump at the same time, as all of them seem prone to do, kt would be up there with them as well. best bisu fantasy canata hyuk is pretty scary until you realize that theyre almost never playing up to their abilities all at the same time. I didn't mean to put Oz and KT's players' skill at the same level but the way the would play a playoffs. I would favour KT too in front of Oz (thought remember what happened last Playoffs). | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
Kal has the PvT out of anyone and I wouldn't rule him out against Flash. Hwasin has very good TvZ and ok TvT. Hero, Bogus, July, Shuttle, Modesty, and Frozen have all shown good play at times and only a few of them have to be good for STX to win a Bo7. | ||
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