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On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:On December 10 2009 14:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Jaedong isn't underrated. Flash is underrated for sure- I have actually seen people try to make the case that Flash is bad or that he is not innovative.
Which is like saying Jaedong has bad muta micro im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ.
tru in some cases stats done matter but most of the time it does
and july was not 'terribad' in those games, he just got outplayed
and no matter how you shake it, stats pvz is very solid... it does not really take a long time to average someones level of play, at least not in my case
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On December 11 2009 12:27 oatboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:On December 10 2009 14:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Jaedong isn't underrated. Flash is underrated for sure- I have actually seen people try to make the case that Flash is bad or that he is not innovative.
Which is like saying Jaedong has bad muta micro im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ. July played horrible that day.
its more that stats played beautifully...
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5930 Posts
On December 11 2009 12:37 lyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:On December 10 2009 14:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Jaedong isn't underrated. Flash is underrated for sure- I have actually seen people try to make the case that Flash is bad or that he is not innovative.
Which is like saying Jaedong has bad muta micro im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ. tru in some cases stats done matter but most of the time it does and july was not 'terribad' in those games, he just got outplayed and no matter how you shake it, stats pvz is very solid... it does not really take a long time to average someones level of play, at least not in my case
No it was terribad. Watch it again. July had no idea about the concept of storm dodging and had generally bad decision making: not really using hive tech, not using zerglings, having a hydralisk only army against the late game protoss ball, burning scourges left and right for no reason, very reluctant to expand, etc.
Not saying Stats didn't play solidly but July played so poorly that its a clear explanation why STX doesn't play him in proleague anymore and other zergs like Modesty are getting more play than him.
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On December 11 2009 12:37 lyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:On December 10 2009 14:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Jaedong isn't underrated. Flash is underrated for sure- I have actually seen people try to make the case that Flash is bad or that he is not innovative.
Which is like saying Jaedong has bad muta micro im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ. tru in some cases stats done matter but most of the time it does and july was not 'terribad' in those games, he just got outplayed and no matter how you shake it, stats pvz is very solid... it does not really take a long time to average someones level of play, at least not in my case
Wow, seriously? I've read this whole back-and-forth conversation and the things you bring up just show how inexperienced with the scene you are. Bringing up stats no less. Stats good at PvZ? Saying that Canata good at TvZ? Saying that JD beat Bisu and Stork at a chump tournament? I don't know man, it really seems like you're just trying to scrape up every itty bit of proof you can to prove your point, regardless of how convincing or solid the basis is.
In some cases stats don't matter but most of the time it does? In this case it REALLY does not matter. July is washed up now, I wouldn't dare use him as a standard for good PvZ or terribad PvZ.
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On December 11 2009 13:26 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 12:37 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:On December 10 2009 14:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Jaedong isn't underrated. Flash is underrated for sure- I have actually seen people try to make the case that Flash is bad or that he is not innovative.
Which is like saying Jaedong has bad muta micro im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ. tru in some cases stats done matter but most of the time it does and july was not 'terribad' in those games, he just got outplayed and no matter how you shake it, stats pvz is very solid... it does not really take a long time to average someones level of play, at least not in my case Wow, seriously? I've read this whole back-and-forth conversation and the things you bring up just show how inexperienced with the scene you are. Bringing up stats no less. Stats good at PvZ? Saying that Canata good at TvZ? Saying that JD beat Bisu and Stork at a chump tournament? I don't know man, it really seems like you're just trying to scrape up every itty bit of proof you can to prove your point, regardless of how convincing or solid the basis is. In some cases stats don't matter but most of the time it does? In this case it REALLY does not matter. July is washed up now, I wouldn't dare use him as a standard for good PvZ or terribad PvZ.
reply something concrete then we can argue
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I'm not sure how you can dismiss Flash's TvT streak by saying that 'all Terrans are kinda bad atm'.
That's the point. All Terrans are kinda bad atm...compared to Flash.
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He's saying all the Zergs Flash played are bad...I think.
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On December 11 2009 13:52 lyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 13:26 BanZu wrote:On December 11 2009 12:37 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:On December 10 2009 14:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Jaedong isn't underrated. Flash is underrated for sure- I have actually seen people try to make the case that Flash is bad or that he is not innovative.
Which is like saying Jaedong has bad muta micro im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ. tru in some cases stats done matter but most of the time it does and july was not 'terribad' in those games, he just got outplayed and no matter how you shake it, stats pvz is very solid... it does not really take a long time to average someones level of play, at least not in my case Wow, seriously? I've read this whole back-and-forth conversation and the things you bring up just show how inexperienced with the scene you are. Bringing up stats no less. Stats good at PvZ? Saying that Canata good at TvZ? Saying that JD beat Bisu and Stork at a chump tournament? I don't know man, it really seems like you're just trying to scrape up every itty bit of proof you can to prove your point, regardless of how convincing or solid the basis is. In some cases stats don't matter but most of the time it does? In this case it REALLY does not matter. July is washed up now, I wouldn't dare use him as a standard for good PvZ or terribad PvZ. reply something concrete then we can argue
There's nothing to argue as you have nothing worthwhile to present.
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On December 11 2009 14:56 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2009 13:52 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 13:26 BanZu wrote:On December 11 2009 12:37 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 12:20 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 12:11 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 11:18 Womwomwom wrote:On December 11 2009 10:58 lyhb wrote:On December 11 2009 10:27 Hinanawi wrote:On December 11 2009 10:14 lyhb wrote:
[quote]
im talking about people here in tl in general We worship the ground Jaedong stands on...it's just that him doing amazing is nothing new, lately. Flash is on an 18 game TvT streak and 11 game TvZ streak lately, so of course he's getting a lot of attention here lately. Like Doc said, we still get some people who call Flash a 'boring turtle', which makes me think that they must not have watched basically any of his games this season (especially his TvZ). imo flashes streak of late isnt legit and should not be regarded the way some people... most of his win streaks are from pl, always matched with b class terrans and zergs... when he faces s class he loses (best/stork) i mean flash is very good i get that but i dont think he is better than jaedong like people here make it out to be jaedong beat bisu/stork in b03 and also beat kal/movie 4 s class players... also beat canata a very good tvz'er and stats a very solid pvz'er jaedong zvz i think is transitioning to a comfort zone with all the new zergs coming into the scene.... once he is done with that, his 'slump' would be over people say that flash is playing the best sc right now but i beg to differ You're right, Flash was playing his best during the 08 Bacchus OSL period. When he went through Bisu 3-2, Jaedong 3-1, then demolished Stork 3-0 in under 50 minutes. Flash's TvP looks weak because of everyone has adapted to him just like all of the zergs now know as much as Jaedong about ZvZ - that is the power of replays and VODs. There was period where Flash rolled protoss players left and right and was pretty much the only terran who could win on Katrina and Medusa. Stats is not a good PvZer. There is no proof of his PvZ skill besides the two games against July, which only shows why July is never in STX's proleague lineup not Stat's PvZ skill. Always matched with B Class terrans and Zergs? You just hate Flash, just admit it. His TvZ streak are against "nobodies" but his TvT streak is very legit. The only terran he hasn't run through is Sea. its not how many games you win or win streaks... its about the quality and substance of the wins yes reckon bacchus flash is legit adn back then you could argue that flash is better than jaedong/bisu and stats is a very good pvz'er... the way he dominated july (someone with a very solid zvp [70% i think])... stats is an up and comer... been watching his plays and the guy has potential to be up there and i dont hate flash tho it may sound like i do. im actually a big fan, have always been even in his 'rainy' days... until he wins againts people in his level or win individual leagues then we can compare him to jd his tvt wins are legit but as i said i consider terrans right now to be in low (so in a way its not legit? makes sense?)... exept maybe a couple here and there Stats generally don't mean crap. July's ZvP was terribad in those two games. Did you even watch those games? Its too early to say Stats has good PvZ. tru in some cases stats done matter but most of the time it does and july was not 'terribad' in those games, he just got outplayed and no matter how you shake it, stats pvz is very solid... it does not really take a long time to average someones level of play, at least not in my case Wow, seriously? I've read this whole back-and-forth conversation and the things you bring up just show how inexperienced with the scene you are. Bringing up stats no less. Stats good at PvZ? Saying that Canata good at TvZ? Saying that JD beat Bisu and Stork at a chump tournament? I don't know man, it really seems like you're just trying to scrape up every itty bit of proof you can to prove your point, regardless of how convincing or solid the basis is. In some cases stats don't matter but most of the time it does? In this case it REALLY does not matter. July is washed up now, I wouldn't dare use him as a standard for good PvZ or terribad PvZ. reply something concrete then we can argue There's nothing to argue as you have nothing worthwhile to present.
you could not present anything in the first place...
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EPT
