I'd say fOrGG and Luxury are favorites if they play their best, but as we all know both are random as dice. Flash > Really seems like a safe bet, but it's a new map and Really could win with an unexpected strategy. + Show Spoiler +
Just kidding, Flash will kick Really's butt no matter what.
I predict 3-0 for KT (but won't be surprised at all if eSTRO puts up a fight).
2 of either Lux, Forgg, or Violet will fail in their respective games taking this to a classic 2-3 loss for Estro.
Or it'll be EXACTLY like the previous Lux/Forgg/Flash sendout against Estro in which KT 3-0s, some people go "park chan ho!" for a couple days before remembering Luxury and Forgg find it funny to fail after becoming MSL champs.
Upmagic stands a decent chance of beating Luxury, although I think that Luxury might have sucked the skills out of his twin brother again. Forgg vs Sangho is just lol, Sangho will very likely win that. Violet winning over Hyvaa is much more likely than the other two. It could turn into 2-2 very easily, I would not be surprised.
(T)fOrGG < Match Point > (P)SangHo (Z)Luxury < Outsider SE > (T)UpMaGiC (T)Flash < Fighting Spirit > (T)Really (P)Violet < Heartbreak Ridge > (Z)hyvaa Closer < Moon Glaive >
Game 1: fOrGG's nickname was the TimeAttacker because of his sense of timing. After his MSL win everyone expected him to be JD's second in command(along with a promising Lomo and an awkward BackHo), but he never got there, and now he is just a good terran in the shadow of Flash. On the other hand we have SangHo who was once called the one destined to become a real ace for eSTRo over the always ok/so-so Really. Both have failed to become what they were expected to, but I still have some faith in SangHo, so I will give him the edge.
Game 2: The once formidable ZvT Lux struggled really bad last season(not only ZvT but in all matchups), with no trace of the zerg who kicked Flash out of OSL when he was the real ultimate weapon and seemed invincible. UpMagic once seemed really washed up, but he made a sort of comeback last PL season, and he is still one of the most creative and fun players to watch. Luxury is still on time to become feared again, while UpMagic seems to be making one last effort before fading(into ACE we hope). Unless Lux has gone thru a drastic change this offseason, I'm giving this one to UpMagic.
Game 3: Really is so plain, so standard, so boring, that I don't see how he could win this unless Flash goes 14cc and suddenly Really decides to go BBS.
Game 4: Violet was a pleasant surprise for KT after the Lucifer fiasco, and in fact, he seems like he won't fade away like "Peul(플)" Yong Ho did. Last PL he did fairly well against Z, and I'm sure the KT staff has lots of hopes in him to share the weight of the team with Flash. hyvaa is still the go-to zerg in eSTRO, which speaks poorly of their roster, and he did crash a little against P last PL, especially in the end. In his defense, he faced some tough P's in the way. Still, Violet should win this.
(ACE): In KT, Flash should always the ace, but like we have seen last season, KT coaching staff seems to experiment sending Lux or even fOrGG. Honestly, KT has some of the worst ace picking in the league. Anyways, I hope they send Flash for fan's sake, and they end this quickly.
thats so interesting that Sangho and ForGG are playing each other both here and in the MSL survivor. they even have the same % in the PvT matchup, around 49%...who knows...there might be some mind games involved...i expect sangho to take this one, but forGG will bring it for the msl. though i hope sangho takes it twice cuz i <3 him
On October 10 2009 03:29 RamenStyle wrote: (T)fOrGG < Match Point > (P)SangHo (Z)Luxury < Outsider SE > (T)UpMaGiC (T)Flash < Fighting Spirit > (T)Really (P)Violet < Heartbreak Ridge > (Z)hyvaa Closer < Moon Glaive >
Game 1: fOrGG's nickname was the TimeAttacker because of his sense of timing. After his MSL win everyone expected him to be JD's second in command(along with a promising Lomo and an awkward BackHo), but he never got there, and now he is just a good terran in the shadow of Flash. On the other hand we have SangHo who was once called the one destined to become a real ace for eSTRo over the always ok/so-so Really. Both have failed to become what they were expected to, but I still have some faith in SangHo, so I will give him the edge.
Game 2: The once formidable ZvT Lux struggled really bad last season(not only ZvT but in all matchups), with no trace of the zerg who kicked Flash out of OSL when he was the real ultimate weapon and seemed invincible. UpMagic once seemed really washed up, but he made a sort of comeback last PL season, and he is still one of the most creative and fun players to watch. Luxury is still on time to become feared again, while UpMagic seems to be making one last effort before fading(into ACE we hope). Unless Lux has gone thru a drastic change this offseason, I'm giving this one to UpMagic.
Game 3: Really is so plain, so standard, so boring, that I don't see how he could win this unless Flash goes 14cc and suddenly Really decides to go BBS.
Game 4: Violet was a pleasant surprise for KT after the Lucifer fiasco, and in fact, he seems like he won't fade away like "Peul(플)" Yong Ho did. Last PL he did fairly well against Z, and I'm sure the KT staff has lots of hopes in him to share the weight of the team with Flash. hyvaa is still the go-to zerg in eSTRO, which speaks poorly of their roster, and he did crash a little against P last PL, especially in the end. In his defense, he faced some tough P's in the way. Still, Violet should win this.
(ACE): In KT, Flash should always the ace, but like we have seen last season, KT coaching staff seems to experiment sending Lux or even fOrGG. Honestly, KT has some of the worst ace picking in the league. Anyways, I hope they send Flash for fan's sake, and they end this quickly.
Matchpoint is like over 90.00% T>P so I definitely expect FrogG to win. And Luxury. Rest I agree with. 5-0.
Why would anyone bet against Forgg failing? I played it safe with my anti-team and stuck with players unlikely to see playing time or who just suck, like Justin.
On October 10 2009 13:28 Onisparda wrote: i have sangho in my fantasy anti-team ...
We all do.
Why Sangho? He is the only playable protoss on Estro
I've said this before, but SangHo on the anti-team is a BAD idea. That being said, he has Bisu later this week, so you might be able to unload him after that.
On October 10 2009 13:36 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: If only Lux or Forgg can break out of his slump, KT would become unstoppable. Flash with Violet and a in-form Luxury would be so sick.
They might get better results from random b-teamers, or Stats, who I'm glad to see getting a slot in their next game, even if I do dislike that it takes Violet's slot.
On October 10 2009 13:56 Nevuk wrote: This is playing out exactly like a Sair/reaver build, But I have to wonder what up is planning on transitioning to.
that was awesome! Luxury had no right being in that game while Up was pushing, but up let lux take out way to many units, and then he should have pressed harder and finished him. Lux just stole a win, GG! Now it''s flash time...
On October 10 2009 14:10 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: that was awesome! Luxury had no right being in that game while Up was pushing, but up let lux take out way to many units, and then he should have pressed harder and finished him. Lux just stole a win, GG! Now it''s flash time...
great imagination, "stealing a win" must feel 10x the "regular win" lux played fairly sloppy and still managed to pull this off. That says something
On October 10 2009 14:10 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: that was awesome! Luxury had no right being in that game while Up was pushing, but up let lux take out way to many units, and then he should have pressed harder and finished him. Lux just stole a win, GG! Now it''s flash time...
great imagination, "stealing a win" must feel 10x the "regular win" lux played fairly sloppy and still managed to pull this off. That says something
It was upmagic that played sloppy, up's build worked and took out teh island expo and had a contain yet couldnt win,
There's a replay of Violet totally dismantling Hyvaa floating around, it's not even close. Had he been playing a decent terran this week, then he might have been a very good anti-team choice, but he's not.
On October 10 2009 14:15 Crunchums wrote: So good that they kept Outsider in the map pool, though I wonder why they added that mineral block in the main?
Map needs more minerals I assume. There IS a lot of gas on that map.
On October 10 2009 14:15 Crunchums wrote: So good that they kept Outsider in the map pool, though I wonder why they added that mineral block in the main?
Map needs more minerals I assume. There IS a lot of gas on that map.
The mineral block does does not have very many minerals in it though.
On October 10 2009 14:10 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: that was awesome! Luxury had no right being in that game while Up was pushing, but up let lux take out way to many units, and then he should have pressed harder and finished him. Lux just stole a win, GG! Now it''s flash time...
great imagination, "stealing a win" must feel 10x the "regular win" lux played fairly sloppy and still managed to pull this off. That says something
It was upmagic that played sloppy, up's build worked and took out teh island expo and had a contain yet couldnt win,
yea vs 5 bases taking out 1 island expo means a lot i mean lux just wanted to counter and got drops, he coulda massed ground and played the ugly turtle terran game. And wtf he didnt play sloppy? he didnt use ovies to scout the mines at nat while countering, he made soo many hats at last expo that werent even able to produce anything. Plus shitton of small micro mistakes he made. Overall Upmagics build didnt work out, he just got outmacroed without much concept
On October 10 2009 14:24 barbahaba0 wrote: as much as i am a fan of jaedeong i have more confidence in flash tvt than jaedongs jvz although lets not talk about flash tvz
Everyone's vZ was in pretty bad shape last season though.
On October 10 2009 14:18 Nevuk wrote: OH FUCK IT"S A TVT. I forgot.
Its a FvT, which is always interesting.
there's no such thing as FvT. too many good terrans
there's only JvZ
Except that Bisu and Flash had a higher win % last year in their mirror MU than Jaedong did. JvZ is no more, hasn't been for a few months.
doesn't matter
they didn't play nearly as many games
jaedong's JvZ cus he's proven so time and time again, 1 time loss is nothing
What one time lost? He lost series to Calm and Effort, his ZvZ Elo is almost lower than Flash's TvZ. It's a consistent pattern. He lost to Hyuk and some other really weak zergs through playoffs. Bisu's PvP was above 85%, very ridiculous, for an entire year. Bisu's pvp elo is only 16 points away from JD, and JD had a ridiculous peak to fall from to reach that - 2346 down to 2266, with it being considerably lower before his series vs Yarnc.
I'm not saying that JD isn't the best ZvZ'er of all time, he is, and he's still the favorite against any zerg, just that Flash/Bisu are scarier opponents for members of their respective races, right now, than JD is to a zerg player.
3 vultures dropped into really's main, they do a bit of damage before getting cleaned up meanwhile 2 vultures mine the ramp at really's 3rd which he scans and defuses with goliaths but not before the vultures get some SCV kills and force the scvs to run away for a bit Flash expanding to 12 meanwhile
3 dropships from flash flying towards bottom left they flew over some mines so really knows it's coming and has units in his main really expanding to 6, flash drops a vulture there
Really rapes the drop with mines but flash has halted production of the cc at 6 until really's deals with that vulture and brings another SCV
That drop by Flash ended up being some kind of +1 attack drop, either by accident or Flash's whole timing plan (?) - upgrade finished right as he made it to Really's base
I think Really could win this, although I'm not sure I'll believe it until Flash gg's, as he's shown how capable of insane comebacks he is in this matchup.
Flash drops 6, a better drop this time cause Really is forced to come at him from below a ramp but Really has a unit advantage right now so it's not too bad for him Flash manages to only lose 2 dropships, really is forced to lift his CC
Flash expanding to 9, Really cleans up the drop and relands the CC, they'll be even on bases soon
On October 10 2009 14:38 integral wrote: what the fuck are you guys jabbering about, flash isn't even behind
lol apparently they don't realize that Really sacrificed dropships for more ground and Flash is fully abusing that advantage. Flash also has +2 while Really does not but I'm not sure how long that disparity has been/will remain.
Flash shuts down Really's attempt to expand to top right main and lands his own cc there instead
Flash doing a good job of using his dropship advantage to turtle and tak lots of the gas expos on the map, he heven manages to kill 2 dropships that really carelessly left in gol range
On October 10 2009 14:38 integral wrote: what the fuck are you guys jabbering about, flash isn't even behind
lol apparently they don't realize that Really sacrificed dropships for more ground and Flash is fully abusing that advantage. Flash also has +2 while Really does not but I'm not sure how long that disparity has been/will remain.
really had 3 mining bases before flash had 2, we talked about the opening
Flash has conceded the middle of the map but used his superior dropship count (and play) to hold both of the other mains. Really is expanding to the middle base which has a double gas so that'll help him out but Flash is ahead and a better player so Really is basically fucked even if the stream is lagging : (
On October 10 2009 14:38 integral wrote: what the fuck are you guys jabbering about, flash isn't even behind
lol apparently they don't realize that Really sacrificed dropships for more ground and Flash is fully abusing that advantage. Flash also has +2 while Really does not but I'm not sure how long that disparity has been/will remain.
really had 3 mining bases before flash had 2, we talked about the opening
Yea... Really put down his academy and armory pretty early and Flash only got 6 or 7 SCV kills with his wraiths.
flash traded a stronger economy early for better penetration (hi SDM) and army mobility with dropships, with which he is currently abusing the fuck out of really's immobile army
having more units doesn't do shit in TvT unless you can actually do something with them, and TvT has a massive defender's advantage unless you have a vastly superior dropship count. so from my perspective, flash was never behind, nor was he even in danger, unless really eliminated flash's dropships.
On October 10 2009 14:43 integral wrote: flash traded a stronger economy early for better penetration (hi SDM) and army mobility with dropships, with which he is currently abusing the fuck out of really's immobile army
having more units doesn't do shit in TvT unless you can actually do something with them, and TvT has a massive defender's advantage unless you have a vastly superior dropship count. so from my perspective, flash was never behind, nor was he even in danger, unless really eliminated flash's dropships.
youre theorycrafting, if really knew how to defend and held his expos he should be on top no matter what, theres different ways to play tvt that do not involve dropships
On October 10 2009 14:43 integral wrote: flash traded a stronger economy early for better penetration (hi SDM) and army mobility with dropships, with which he is currently abusing the fuck out of really's immobile army
having more units doesn't do shit in TvT unless you can actually do something with them, and TvT has a massive defender's advantage unless you have a vastly superior dropship count. so from my perspective, flash was never behind, nor was he even in danger, unless really eliminated flash's dropships.
I thought he was behind earlier just cause he got his expos up slower and then he pulled ahead by using his dropship advantage. He wasn't just ahead because he had more dropships, he earned it through superior play. But I agree with your basic point that he was never very far behind.
On October 10 2009 14:44 Nevuk wrote: is it just me or is the scv saturation really poor on most of flash's bases? I just counted... 3 scvs mining minerals at one.
I think he was expecting to lose that base, didn't even take the gas?
On October 10 2009 14:44 Nevuk wrote: is it just me or is the scv saturation really poor on most of flash's bases? I just counted... 3 scvs mining minerals at one.
I think he was expecting to lose that base, didn't even take the gas?
On another of the bases he was only mining gas, the 12 o clock onee
I really like the way Flash played the map, he's pretty much had the high ground for the entire game and he hasn't let Really mine the middle very much
Yeah, that was closer than I think people were expecting it to be. I don't understand how Really won several of the major confrontations but then had a smaller ground army.
GO FLASH. In mid-late game, it was a little shaky whether flash would win or lose but it is very apparent at the end. (Too bad you were too expensive for me to afford)
On October 10 2009 14:56 butterbrain wrote: A friend who doesn't play starcraft: "flash seems very methodical"
Should tell him about his pre-game habits, he measures the precise distance with a ruler and tapes his mousepad and keyboard to the desk so it replicates his practice environment.
did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
On October 10 2009 14:58 Kazius wrote: Flash shows that when it comes to maps split in half between terrans, his multitasking will ALWAYS win.
??? Flash's multitasking is easily his worst attribute. His decision making and game sense are literally perfect, that's why he's special.
Really had some impressive play but he simply couldn't predict and respond to Flash's attacks well enough, which led to Flash getting a huge mid-lategame advantage. Quite respectable though.
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
when really had both bottom left expos and flashs top right nat was seiged and getting raped i thought really may have pulled it out of his arse but not really other than that
On October 10 2009 14:58 Kazius wrote: Flash shows that when it comes to maps split in half between terrans, his multitasking will ALWAYS win.
??? Flash's multitasking is easily his worst attribute. His decision making and game sense are literally perfect, that's why he's special.
Really had some impressive play but he simply couldn't predict and respond to Flash's attacks well enough, which led to Flash getting a huge mid-lategame advantage. Quite respectable though.
Yar Flash's Multitasking hasn't been up to par lately.
But yes, reason why Flash is good is because of his game sense and decision making. Sometimes he makes almost a near-perfect game winning decision which make people go WTF
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
the only point I was a bit worried was right after flash fucked up one of his drops, but no I never thought flash was losing.
I would've pretty embarrassed if I'd argued for flash not being behind and then he'd lost though, but flash is godmode TvT. Trust in Flash.
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
no? it was pretty obvious that really was losing most of the time, if he would have won I would have called it a comeback
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
no? it was pretty obvious that really was losing most of the time, if he would have won I would have called it a comeback
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
no? it was pretty obvious that really was losing most of the time, if he would have won I would have called it a comeback
around midgame it was pretty much 50-50, really won more battles and had one more expo
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
no? it was pretty obvious that really was losing most of the time, if he would have won I would have called it a comeback
this is wrong, stop the bs
nou.
around midgame it was pretty much 50-50, really won more battles and had one more expo
Really didn't have more expansions than flash the entire game except for the very beginning. 3 o'clock was never mining.
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
no? it was pretty obvious that really was losing most of the time, if he would have won I would have called it a comeback
wtf?
really was just slightly behind Flash most of the game, though the turning point was when he lost the center expo (doesn't mean he was way behind from here onwards). really winning wouldn't be a 'comeback', learn to use the term properly
On October 10 2009 15:12 MrHoon wrote: cmon Violet, prove yourself that you aren't another KT Toss one hit Proleague Wonder
oh boy have you seen pure vs tempest on katrina se? thats when i thought tempest was THE kt protoss then he just failed then lucifer came along he failed too now its stats/violet.
On October 10 2009 15:00 Kiarip wrote: did anyone really think taht flash was losing the game at any point in time?
I mean he kind of had a slight BO disadvantage given how his cloaked wraith tech got scouted early, and there was that one time where he lost quite a bit of tanks from a drop, but it seemed like he had a clear advantage throughout the whole game :S
if really had won, im sure you would be saying the same about really
no? it was pretty obvious that really was losing most of the time, if he would have won I would have called it a comeback
wtf?
really was just slightly behind Flash most of the game, though the turning point was when he lost the center expo (doesn't mean he was way behind from here onwards). really winning wouldn't be a 'comeback', learn to use the term properly
... Really didn't have any dropships the first 70% of the game or so... Even though he had a larger army at times, Flash blocked everything off, so he couldn't do anything. He had absolutely no mobility, and was behind an expansion... The fact that he had more units made it look more even than it actually was.
* Simply, after double Nex, Get an archive and 4 gates. After 2 archons - produce speed+1 zealots and pressure/attack the zerg. * 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus+Gate => Main Gas, Core, front gas, Stargate, Citadel, Templar+3 gate. +1, 4 HT, Speed up, Make speed zealots... at around 8:30, attack. * The 4 gate 2 archon build is used to fight Zerg Neo-Sauron builds. (9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. ) * Once again, I re-iterate, this build is to fight Neo-Sauron Zergs. * If the zerg shows switch up, there must be adjustments made, and the following will be an explanation on how to do so.
1 - The Double Nexus -
*The Build Order - 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus *Key Points - When pool is half done, the forge must be coming up. - Even if the forge and pool finish at the same time, ling make+travel time = finished cannons. - Minor variations dependant on map. - If you are given a little freedom due to the pool being late, you can build a nexus and if still given further freedom by opposition, build a gate! - If the zerg aggresively 3 hatch 0 pools, do a Nexus -no forge 2 gate. While harassing with zealots, producing probes and teching are both possible. However, the zerg, due to making zerglings+sunkens will not be able to do anything else. - It is because of this 9 pool is the standard. To stop the 9 pool, the basic double nex build is as described above and admittedly slower.
* The Defence - - 2-4 zerglings = 1 photon. More lings - 2 photon. If speed up or around 12 lings, 3 photon. - In most ling heavy scenarios, 3 is plenty. - More importantly is the sim city + Probe/Zealot path blocking to not even let the lings onto the cannons in the first place. - Specifically, Gate on top, Forge on bottom = No ling run by. This is an important feature a toss should utilize. - If the zerg does speed up or 8+ lings, block/narrow the entrance with probes. - Trying to conserve 2-4 more probes will end the game. The zerg is obviously poor so there is no need to feel like you must have 2-4 extra probes working for your econ. - As money allows, replace the probes with 1-2 zealots from the gates.
*The Scouting - - Is it 12 hatch or 9 pool, pool timing is the most important thing here. - then, are lings making or drones? Then 'What is the hatch count and gas timing. - Most zergs put up the hatches they want (3/4) before they make the gas. - By this assumption, we can usually get a feel for if the zerg has taken his 2nd natural or not. - Depending on gas timing, Hydra, Muta, Lurker can be guessed. - If you were breached by the all in, watch the replay with an emphasis on the zergs gas timing/usage. - Checking for Chogoling speed up is obv important. - If the gas has been up for awhile but there is no lair in sight, high probability of a chogoling break. - If the scouting probe is caught and the zerg is containing outside movement from the toss's nat and even if scouting seems hard, you can't be still. - It is good to fake probe movements in and out of the base to check for chogospeed. - If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side. - After the zergs natural expo, if the 3rd hatch is towards the main, be very cautious.
2 - The Core Timing -
* Build order - (After Gate) - Core, Nat Gas, Stargate, Citadel. - Before the core is complete, the nat gas must be put up to prevent gas shortage. - A goon is always a nice choice to prevent more ol scouting. - Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence. - If the Zerg's tech is late (4 Hatch Gas), corsairs are not even needed. [This isn't mentioned but I assume no SG at all]
* The Defence - - If unsure of the zergs exact intentions, another photon up front for 3 isn't a bad choice. - Pure Hydra Break - Cancel all probes and cannon like no tomorrow. Magu Magu Photon Photon. - If hydras are trying to fast break the gate, bring a probe up to the gate and get ready to re-construct the gate to buy extra time is a good option. - If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
* The Scouting - - The Sair is better off looking at zerg intentions rather than overlord hunting. - Just because scourge are out, don't keep the sair in your main. Avoid the scourges and looking at the zerg is very beneficial - Post 3-hatch, if the 4 and 5 hatchery do not pop up, mutalisks all-in are much more likely. - If hatcheries 4 and 5 are up, the zerg has less than 200 minerals. He can't make mutas! - It is important to discover the natural gas status also. If the gas is already up, a gas heavy muta or lurker attack will be coming.
*OMG! It's not a spire! - If it's not spire, it's ling hydra lurker. - Since the sair neutralizing scourges are not there, Sair-reaver is a good choice. If the Citadel is already up, Sair-DT is a good choice. - It is still possible to ignore it all and go 4gate 2 archon.
3 -Two Archons and +1 Spd Zealots -
*Build Order - (After Citadel) - +1 attack, Templar Archives, 3 gateways, 2 archons, Speed up, 4 gateway zealot pump. - The above build is the standard but depending on the zorgs status, what comes first does differs. - Afterwards, product sufficient zealchon from gates and put down a pylong at the 2nd natural to PREPAREeeee FORrrrrrr EXPANSION~~~.
*Fast Mutal Defence. - Even if you scout that it's not muta, 2 cannons in your main is standard. (It is encouraged that you have a bountiful and abundant 3 flower harvest) - As aforementioned, if the nat gas is made but the 4/5th hatcheries are missing, it is wise to assume mutalisks. - Even with an archon, without cannons/sair fast power mutals will shake you up. 3-4 Cannons at main, 2-3 sairs plz. Plz plz. - Most Zorgs that go mutal defend with many sunkenlisks. If the sunken count looks low, poking him with your 2 archon superlot and sairs is recommended. (While expanding). - If this isn't the case, prepare your 2nd expo! The mutals will aggravatingly rape your macro polo probe, and this is another reason many sairs are needed. Also, if you feel your probe micro sux and the mutas will rape it, going ahead and setting a probe there before hand to preserve your original intended expo timing isn't bad.
* Fast Lurkers - Similar to mutals, if the nat gas is fast and the hydra den is fast, faster lurkers will be looking to contain you. - Instead of Archons or Speed Up, adding only 2-3 gates + robotics + Goon range + Templar&Obs is recommended. - Make 1-2 DTs and hide them somewhere. Later, when he is harassing your expos, your harass him back ninja style. - When breaking the lurker contain, take a shuttle full of 4 zealots and harass the back and then attempting to break the lurker is much easier street. - If your 1-2 DT's made it out, harass with these dt's now. - When breaking the contain, having 1 archon is really nice. It serves as a good lead. Because the hydras and lings come towards the archon, the rear templars can get easy storms.
* Scourge, Hydra, Then Lurker - Making scourges to pressure the corsair while making hydras, then follwing up with lurkers is the standard. - Until the Zealots are Archons are destroyed, the Protoss will have the center. - At this moment, you have to make your 2nd natural, but speed up ling movement to halt this will be seen. - In this case, instead of moving all your zealots out, send a few to confront the zerglings and to hold the territory. - Keep pumping zealots while reseraching Storm. Prepare HT while raising a robo and get observers. - As you pump templar, your gas will deplete and minerals will be left over. This is when you increase gateways.
4. - The Second Half Charge -
* Overcoming The Lair Timing - Massing Dragoons and Templar while destroying the zerg's lair units and pushing the nat is the ultimate goal of this strat. - It is recommended to be on a wider and more open map where dragoons can fight to their full potential, like Tau Cross. - If the zerg survives and gets to hive, adrenal+swarm makes goons useless and the game will become increasingly difficult
*Split Map Fights ("Macro Wars") - The main way to win is to follow the zerg step in step for expo's while constructing a hanbang. - Zealots - Archons - Templar will be the base units and later the reaver must be incorporated. - Putting a robo (or two) at your expos will help fight defiler and zergling terrorism!!!! - If you control the center and carelessly expand, cracklings will shake you up and ruin your pretty Nexus in an instant. - In preparation for doom drops on the main, many photons (You will have money left, 5, 7, 10, flower fields!) are recommended. While Dark Swarm nullifies these, they buy precious time. And you must quickly defend with speed up shuttle/reavers. - Be careful and please take good care of your corsairs. If you can gather it up, mass corsairs is very powerful, but because of the high gas cost, your army can become lacking. - Until you are sure of victory, do not go into a zerg's defensive line. Especially don't smash into a sunken line. Concentrate on gathering an archon and reaver count, stop or slow down zerg expo attempts, and be sure to keep your econ safe of any threats. - Got money left over? Photon Photon Photon Gate Gate Gate. .
On October 10 2009 15:17 jalstar wrote: +1 speedlot push: the new Bisu build
It's not new, it's just not been necessary, was first used last year sometime.
neither was the original Bisu build
but now Bisu uses it vs Jaedong and it's used in like 3 pvz's straight
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's only started to be necessary becasue 5 hatch hydra got so annoying, there's 2 threads in the strat forum on it, the most recent variant involves getting the early early +1 seen here and delaying speed for it while still keeping sairs.
* Simply, after double Nex, Get an archive and 4 gates. After 2 archons - produce speed+1 zealots and pressure/attack the zerg. * 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus+Gate => Main Gas, Core, front gas, Stargate, Citadel, Templar+3 gate. +1, 4 HT, Speed up, Make speed zealots... at around 8:30, attack. * The 4 gate 2 archon build is used to fight Zerg Neo-Sauron builds. (9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. ) * Once again, I re-iterate, this build is to fight Neo-Sauron Zergs. * If the zerg shows switch up, there must be adjustments made, and the following will be an explanation on how to do so.
1 - The Double Nexus -
*The Build Order - 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus *Key Points - When pool is half done, the forge must be coming up. - Even if the forge and pool finish at the same time, ling make+travel time = finished cannons. - Minor variations dependant on map. - If you are given a little freedom due to the pool being late, you can build a nexus and if still given further freedom by opposition, build a gate! - If the zerg aggresively 3 hatch 0 pools, do a Nexus -no forge 2 gate. While harassing with zealots, producing probes and teching are both possible. However, the zerg, due to making zerglings+sunkens will not be able to do anything else. - It is because of this 9 pool is the standard. To stop the 9 pool, the basic double nex build is as described above and admittedly slower.
* The Defence - - 2-4 zerglings = 1 photon. More lings - 2 photon. If speed up or around 12 lings, 3 photon. - In most ling heavy scenarios, 3 is plenty. - More importantly is the sim city + Probe/Zealot path blocking to not even let the lings onto the cannons in the first place. - Specifically, Gate on top, Forge on bottom = No ling run by. This is an important feature a toss should utilize. - If the zerg does speed up or 8+ lings, block/narrow the entrance with probes. - Trying to conserve 2-4 more probes will end the game. The zerg is obviously poor so there is no need to feel like you must have 2-4 extra probes working for your econ. - As money allows, replace the probes with 1-2 zealots from the gates.
*The Scouting - - Is it 12 hatch or 9 pool, pool timing is the most important thing here. - then, are lings making or drones? Then 'What is the hatch count and gas timing. - Most zergs put up the hatches they want (3/4) before they make the gas. - By this assumption, we can usually get a feel for if the zerg has taken his 2nd natural or not. - Depending on gas timing, Hydra, Muta, Lurker can be guessed. - If you were breached by the all in, watch the replay with an emphasis on the zergs gas timing/usage. - Checking for Chogoling speed up is obv important. - If the gas has been up for awhile but there is no lair in sight, high probability of a chogoling break. - If the scouting probe is caught and the zerg is containing outside movement from the toss's nat and even if scouting seems hard, you can't be still. - It is good to fake probe movements in and out of the base to check for chogospeed. - If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side. - After the zergs natural expo, if the 3rd hatch is towards the main, be very cautious.
2 - The Core Timing -
* Build order - (After Gate) - Core, Nat Gas, Stargate, Citadel. - Before the core is complete, the nat gas must be put up to prevent gas shortage. - A goon is always a nice choice to prevent more ol scouting. - Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence. - If the Zerg's tech is late (4 Hatch Gas), corsairs are not even needed. [This isn't mentioned but I assume no SG at all]
* The Defence - - If unsure of the zergs exact intentions, another photon up front for 3 isn't a bad choice. - Pure Hydra Break - Cancel all probes and cannon like no tomorrow. Magu Magu Photon Photon. - If hydras are trying to fast break the gate, bring a probe up to the gate and get ready to re-construct the gate to buy extra time is a good option. - If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
* The Scouting - - The Sair is better off looking at zerg intentions rather than overlord hunting. - Just because scourge are out, don't keep the sair in your main. Avoid the scourges and looking at the zerg is very beneficial - Post 3-hatch, if the 4 and 5 hatchery do not pop up, mutalisks all-in are much more likely. - If hatcheries 4 and 5 are up, the zerg has less than 200 minerals. He can't make mutas! - It is important to discover the natural gas status also. If the gas is already up, a gas heavy muta or lurker attack will be coming.
*OMG! It's not a spire! - If it's not spire, it's ling hydra lurker. - Since the sair neutralizing scourges are not there, Sair-reaver is a good choice. If the Citadel is already up, Sair-DT is a good choice. - It is still possible to ignore it all and go 4gate 2 archon.
3 -Two Archons and +1 Spd Zealots -
*Build Order - (After Citadel) - +1 attack, Templar Archives, 3 gateways, 2 archons, Speed up, 4 gateway zealot pump. - The above build is the standard but depending on the zorgs status, what comes first does differs. - Afterwards, product sufficient zealchon from gates and put down a pylong at the 2nd natural to PREPAREeeee FORrrrrrr EXPANSION~~~.
*Fast Mutal Defence. - Even if you scout that it's not muta, 2 cannons in your main is standard. (It is encouraged that you have a bountiful and abundant 3 flower harvest) - As aforementioned, if the nat gas is made but the 4/5th hatcheries are missing, it is wise to assume mutalisks. - Even with an archon, without cannons/sair fast power mutals will shake you up. 3-4 Cannons at main, 2-3 sairs plz. Plz plz. - Most Zorgs that go mutal defend with many sunkenlisks. If the sunken count looks low, poking him with your 2 archon superlot and sairs is recommended. (While expanding). - If this isn't the case, prepare your 2nd expo! The mutals will aggravatingly rape your macro polo probe, and this is another reason many sairs are needed. Also, if you feel your probe micro sux and the mutas will rape it, going ahead and setting a probe there before hand to preserve your original intended expo timing isn't bad.
* Fast Lurkers - Similar to mutals, if the nat gas is fast and the hydra den is fast, faster lurkers will be looking to contain you. - Instead of Archons or Speed Up, adding only 2-3 gates + robotics + Goon range + Templar&Obs is recommended. - Make 1-2 DTs and hide them somewhere. Later, when he is harassing your expos, your harass him back ninja style. - When breaking the lurker contain, take a shuttle full of 4 zealots and harass the back and then attempting to break the lurker is much easier street. - If your 1-2 DT's made it out, harass with these dt's now. - When breaking the contain, having 1 archon is really nice. It serves as a good lead. Because the hydras and lings come towards the archon, the rear templars can get easy storms.
* Scourge, Hydra, Then Lurker - Making scourges to pressure the corsair while making hydras, then follwing up with lurkers is the standard. - Until the Zealots are Archons are destroyed, the Protoss will have the center. - At this moment, you have to make your 2nd natural, but speed up ling movement to halt this will be seen. - In this case, instead of moving all your zealots out, send a few to confront the zerglings and to hold the territory. - Keep pumping zealots while reseraching Storm. Prepare HT while raising a robo and get observers. - As you pump templar, your gas will deplete and minerals will be left over. This is when you increase gateways.
4. - The Second Half Charge -
* Overcoming The Lair Timing - Massing Dragoons and Templar while destroying the zerg's lair units and pushing the nat is the ultimate goal of this strat. - It is recommended to be on a wider and more open map where dragoons can fight to their full potential, like Tau Cross. - If the zerg survives and gets to hive, adrenal+swarm makes goons useless and the game will become increasingly difficult
*Split Map Fights ("Macro Wars") - The main way to win is to follow the zerg step in step for expo's while constructing a hanbang. - Zealots - Archons - Templar will be the base units and later the reaver must be incorporated. - Putting a robo (or two) at your expos will help fight defiler and zergling terrorism!!!! - If you control the center and carelessly expand, cracklings will shake you up and ruin your pretty Nexus in an instant. - In preparation for doom drops on the main, many photons (You will have money left, 5, 7, 10, flower fields!) are recommended. While Dark Swarm nullifies these, they buy precious time. And you must quickly defend with speed up shuttle/reavers. - Be careful and please take good care of your corsairs. If you can gather it up, mass corsairs is very powerful, but because of the high gas cost, your army can become lacking. - Until you are sure of victory, do not go into a zerg's defensive line. Especially don't smash into a sunken line. Concentrate on gathering an archon and reaver count, stop or slow down zerg expo attempts, and be sure to keep your econ safe of any threats. - Got money left over? Photon Photon Photon Gate Gate Gate. .
No. It's an entirely different build that only uses 2 gateways.
I can't remember whether it was p4ndemik or romad that said violet was overhyped and that he still had a lot to learn, but violet really seems like the real deal to me.
On October 10 2009 15:24 integral wrote: I can't remember whether it was p4ndemik or romad that said violet was overhyped and that he still had a lot to learn, but violet really seems like the real deal to me.
It was Romad, he didn't think that Violet was bad just that his play hadn't been as impressive recently as it had been when he was streaking. (Which was true).
On October 10 2009 15:24 integral wrote: I can't remember whether it was p4ndemik or romad that said violet was overhyped and that he still had a lot to learn, but violet really seems like the real deal to me.
As GTR said before
Tempest/Lucifer, they were both hyped to be neo reach/ra
Even tho I love Violet, I still think it's too early to say
8 pyl 11 forge 14 can 15 can 15 nex 16 gate 16 pylon 2 17 gas follow up with core, stargate 2nd gas, 1-0, 3rd pylon, citadel. --- maintain zealot production, do NOT miss a fucking pylon --- Important however is that you do NOT make the citadel too early. If you're not Bisu it is better to have both 1-0 and legspeed ready at the same time - you don't want to attack before it anyway! (more on that later) 2nd gate is at like 46-50 supply. Make only 2 corsairs if not massive muta rush. Make a cannon right after your 2nd sair. Get gate 3 + 4.
After 30 supply or so the timing gets really really tricky so that's the part you gotta figure out for yourself but that's basically it.
The plot of this build is 1-0 just RAPES zerglings. If you watch the VOD closely you will see Bisu even WANTED Jaedong to make even more lings - he was rushing out with 7 zealots (and believe me Jaedong stops 7 zealots with 1 sunk+drone+ling at that time) and had no 1-0 - however Bisu did just fake it out a bit, run around, made Jaedong produce MANY lings which he needed to make in that situation (watch the VOD clearly!) then waited until 6 more zealots finished (timing of gate 3+4 is essential about it, I don't get it done proper yet...) and in the meantime his +1 was done as well.
You may ask why does Bisu want him to build lings right now? Logic of larva etc - if you waste larva on 24 lings (which die to 14 zealots with +1 as if they're nothing - literally all they do is buy you time to make hydras) IF you continue the thought Bisu has +2 working after this attack and you have the gas for 3 archons AND a robo (!) or robo + storm + 5 templar. Keep in mind Zerg just wasted 12+++ larva on Zerglings which means he has 12 drones less. Now the Zerg has 2 choices: a) Remain on extremely low drone count but still get your mutas at the right time out. [he lost 8 drones as well during Bisu's attack!] b) Use the lurker-tech for something while getting some more drones to atleast supply the 5 hatches he had and then go for something like an army again.
Do you think Zerg likes to choose between these options?
Obviously this is no free win buildorder - but if you execute it proper and atleast get 5-6 drones while not suiciding all of your zealots (and making templars+robo while you're doing so) it may give you quite a decent advantage.
Also you can quite safely expand to a third using a sole zealot to clear out the scout-ling there because Zerg's force should be extremely busy while your zealots are roaming around and testing his defences...
On October 10 2009 15:24 integral wrote: I can't remember whether it was p4ndemik or romad that said violet was overhyped and that he still had a lot to learn, but violet really seems like the real deal to me.
It was Romad, he didn't think that Violet was bad just that his play hadn't been as impressive recently as it had been when he was streaking. (Which was true).
On October 10 2009 15:24 integral wrote: I can't remember whether it was p4ndemik or romad that said violet was overhyped and that he still had a lot to learn, but violet really seems like the real deal to me.
It was Romad, he didn't think that Violet was bad just that his play hadn't been as impressive recently as it had been when he was streaking. (Which was true).
I like Violet but I kind of agree. I need to see Violet win some PvT's - he's shown NO indication whatsoever so far that he can play that matchup.
So Instead of splitting map or getting fast 3rd he just stays on 2 base macro mode... how are you suppose to counter that, apprently lurker + obs snipping seems to be not good enough
this spire opening is nowhere as sharp as it used to be violet didnt even bother wasting money on cannons for mineral lines without protoss stressing muta defence it probably doesnt even give you any advantage( esp going lurkling)
On October 10 2009 15:27 StorrZerg wrote: So Instead of splitting map or getting fast 3rd he just stays on 2 base macro mode... how are you suppose to counter that, apprently lurker + obs snipping seems to be not good enough
mass ling backstab/faster hive would probably work
On October 10 2009 15:27 StorrZerg wrote: So Instead of splitting map or getting fast 3rd he just stays on 2 base macro mode... how are you suppose to counter that, apprently lurker + obs snipping seems to be not good enough
Hyvaa overextended himself defending that far away and taking a 4th. He scouted the spinning upgrades, the lack of third and the gate number, he should have started macro mode with maybe some hydras to sniper stuff.
lol silly commentators, only getting excited on the days when they're commentating and saying "oh this day won't be a fun day..." on days they aren't commentating hahaha
On October 10 2009 15:27 StorrZerg wrote: So Instead of splitting map or getting fast 3rd he just stays on 2 base macro mode... how are you suppose to counter that, apprently lurker + obs snipping seems to be not good enough
is a good example of him getting outclassed zvp, although he takes a third he tries the 2 base mode first only to get beaten off.
On October 10 2009 15:32 MrHoon wrote: lol silly commentators, only getting excited on the days when they're commentating and saying "oh this day won't be a fun day..." on days they aren't commentating hahaha
haha they got really excited over ace vs mbc then skt vs estro shows up 'oh... do taek myung... yeh'
On October 10 2009 15:30 Nevuk wrote: I actually like Violet's pvp more than his pvz, there's no one he can't beat pvp.
Violet is miniature Bisu.
Considering that Bisu is his idol, this makes sense. He's a bit more inclined to take influence from Reach, considering his frequent use of dark archons.
With all this discussion about Violet, though, I still think that Horang2 was probably a better choice for FPL, as I consider them about equal in PvP, with Violet taking the lead in PvZ and horang2 in PvT, but Violet was 1 more point and has real competition for his slot in Stats. (Haksoo doesn't count. Sorry.)
On October 10 2009 15:38 Nevuk wrote: With all this discussion about Violet, though, I still think that Horang2 was probably a better choice for FPL, as I consider them about equal in PvP, with Violet taking the lead in PvZ and horang2 in PvT, but Violet was 1 more point and has real competition for his slot in Stats. (Haksoo doesn't count. Sorry.)
On October 10 2009 15:38 Nevuk wrote: With all this discussion about Violet, though, I still think that Horang2 was probably a better choice for FPL, as I consider them about equal in PvP, with Violet taking the lead in PvZ and horang2 in PvT, but Violet was 1 more point and has real competition for his slot in Stats. (Haksoo doesn't count. Sorry.)
Yeah, but Violet owns.
Which is why he is on my team instead of H2 haha. If Horang2 ever starts making more appearances than Violet, I'll probably trade, though (Which shouldn't happen, unless Stats starts raping and the maps don't allow for two toss).
On October 10 2009 15:24 integral wrote: I can't remember whether it was p4ndemik or romad that said violet was overhyped and that he still had a lot to learn, but violet really seems like the real deal to me.
As GTR said before
Tempest/Lucifer, they were both hyped to be neo reach/ra
Even tho I love Violet, I still think it's too early to say
I think lucifer did really well for that short span because ra was his coach. after ra left lucifer lost it imo
On October 10 2009 15:38 Nevuk wrote: With all this discussion about Violet, though, I still think that Horang2 was probably a better choice for FPL, as I consider them about equal in PvP, with Violet taking the lead in PvZ and horang2 in PvT, but Violet was 1 more point and has real competition for his slot in Stats. (Haksoo doesn't count. Sorry.)
On the other hand, at least for one day SangHo gets to be the best player on eSTRO - at least as determined by record. Up and Really both probably played better.
I was just going over Flash's play vs Really in my head. At the time I thought that his Fact Port wraith play had led to a B.O. disadvantage, but it probably went just the way he was expecting it to. He was mildly behind on econ for a while, but the faster transition to drop play was perfect for the map and gave him such a massive tactical edge through out the mid game. Really had a huge army advantage for quite a while there but couldn't get anything done.
The TvT was interesting to watch play out. I agree with Orbifold, I initially thought that Flash's choice to build a starport had really hampered him in the early game, as Really at one point had a substantial army AND econ advantage. But with TvT, what really matters is dropship count, and I think Really's advantages were mostly an illusion. He simply had no offensive capabilities, so even if Flash had an army half the size (it was closer than that, I know) Really simply could not touch Flash, whereas Flash could abuse Really with mobility. Perhaps, on a different map, Really could have set up a contain on Flash, but it seemed like that thought never entered into his mind.
^^ I think you're completely right. I would even go as far as to say that FlaSh wanted really to think that he had the major advantage, when in reality, Flash had control of the game the entire time. I don't think a build like this would work on a less experienced player, per se, because the advatagewouldn't be recognized.
Sweet, I'm glad you guys had the same impression as I. My TvT is pretty sorry, so I have to think stuff out for a while when I watch high level games.
Flash got that nice position towards the middle, but Really had a huge Tank count advantage... and I remember thinking "Flash is in trouble if Really pushes in a strong attack". In retrospect though, Flash could have dropped all over any advance and bought enough time to fall back and meet reinforcements.
I think this map is going to make for some fun TvTs.
Wow, just watched Upmagic vs Luxury. It was so amusing. :D Upmagic will never, ever win a Starleague (or even get far in one), but he has so much flair. Such an entertainer. Every time I think SC is completely mapped out and that everything has been tried, Upmagic (as well as some others) proves me wrong.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss98/dissuey/plktesmaincopy.jpg)
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fOrGG < Match Point > 
SangHo
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