EPTMy question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just mutas. Get +1 carapace? Switch to lings?
Here's the replay.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=16598
ZvZ enemy spore colony
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DrLefTy
United States36 Posts
My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just mutas. Get +1 carapace? Switch to lings? Here's the replay. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=16598 | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On July 12 2009 05:53 DrLefTy wrote: So I just lost in a long ZvZ. I went 9pool speed into one hatch muta, but before my mutas got to his base, it had a spore colony up protecting the drones. Knowing full well that my mutas didn't have a chance against the spore colony, I decided to switch to hydras, but since my opponent never teched to mutas, he was ahead on the hydra tech, and eventually got the best of me. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just mutas. Get +1 carapace? Switch to lings? Here's the replay. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=16598 Wait what? What are you talking about? 11 mutas+ can shrug off spore colony fire as if it were a turret. You don't have to kill the colony even. If he's going some ridiculous hydra tech just go mass Mutalisks. Don't treat mutalisks like wraiths or scouts... they are far more capable at killing buildings than any flier besides a carrier. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
I didn't watch the replay but hydras out of one base sucks. As long has he doesn't have two bases he cannot defeat you. | ||
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
Dude mutas can hold their own against a spore colony. Spore colonies + hydralisks might be a different story. But just one spore colony is nooot a big deal And if he invests money into multiple spore colonies Then that already puts you ahead economically so you can just mass up more mutalisks and roll him | ||
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DrLefTy
United States36 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:04 Jayme wrote: Wait what? What are you talking about? 11 mutas+ can shrug off spore colony fire as if it were a turret. You don't have to kill the colony even. If he's going some ridiculous hydra tech just go mass Mutalisks. Don't treat mutalisks like wraiths or scouts... they are far more capable at killing buildings than any flier besides a carrier. I say that because I seem to remember losing a lot of mutas to one spore before i could take it down. I guess I should note I've only played SC for a month. | ||
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DownMaxX
Canada1311 Posts
On blackberry so I can't watch replay... | ||
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aokces
United States309 Posts
Here's a better post for your title: 'ZvZ enemy spore colony' Help, this guy went 5evo and spore rushed me. Knowing full well my overlords didn't stand a chance against the spore colonies, I decided to switch to sunken tech. But since he never built a pool, he got way ahead and eventually got the best of me with +1 carapace drones. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just overlords. Research overlord speed? Switch to lings? | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:15 DrLefTy wrote: I say that because I seem to remember losing a lot of mutas to one spore before i could take it down. I guess I should note I've only played SC for a month. Ignore the spore colony. Go after drones. Muta micro into spore range, kill a few drones and retreat. Cycle out mutalisks that have taken heavy damage and then repeat. | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:39 aokces wrote: Here's a better post for your title: 'ZvZ enemy spore colony' Help, this guy went 5evo and spore rushed me. Knowing full well my overlords didn't stand a chance against the spore colonies, I decided to switch to sunken tech. But since he never built a pool, he got way ahead and eventually got the best of me with +1 carapace drones. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just overlords. Research overlord speed? Switch to lings? Personally I'd research overlord drops, and try to clog the spore colony by dropping drones into the hole on top. *** OP: Basically, a minimum of three mutas can | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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520
United States2822 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:39 aokces wrote: Ignore the spore (400 hp can take a lot of damage), the drone kills you get will be worth a few dead mutas. Here's a better post for your title: 'ZvZ enemy spore colony' Help, this guy went 5evo and spore rushed me. Knowing full well my overlords didn't stand a chance against the spore colonies, I decided to switch to sunken tech. But since he never built a pool, he got way ahead and eventually got the best of me with +1 carapace drones. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just overlords. Research overlord speed? Switch to lings? xD hmm man I don't think there is a point in watching the whole rep (I'm at 6mins right now). Like others said target drones + spores don't have that big range man lol you could harass his drones, gas and den from the north not getting hit even once! Or just keep track of your muta and don't make them wait near the base, they were there when spore was like 1/3 done?? This guy went 7pool NO GAS, even pure ling should defeat him ez I think? edit: muta tank so lings come closer to hydras -> it's lings that do most of the damage There is no point in switching, especially having map control. Mutaling is much faster than hydra; that also means that if you would meet in the middle of the map or something you always should have bigger, of course stronger army. You could expo if he placed spore in a better location so you wouldn't own him like you should in that situation rofl. As I read a good post on TL some time ago the only good situation to switch to Hydra is after you are low on gas I think so you go Mutaling + hydra vs mutaling. Gotta see a good game of that tho >.< | ||
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invy
Bosnia-Herzegovina41 Posts
So he saved minerals or something for mutas and spire and zerglings overran him. Don't build hydras. | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
12 mutas owns 24 hydras if you start harrassing them the second they leave their base | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
The main problem with this game is that neither of you seemed to have any understanding of the matchup. I missed it at the beginning, but if you went speed first with 9pool or overpool and take off one drone from gas, you NEED to put a drone back on gas when you start your lair. I'm just not going to watch the rest. You need to learn to scout properly with your overlords and just be more wary of what's going on. If you were scouting properly or even used your zerglings well, you would have realized that your opponent was absolutely screwed and you could have won the game at the zergling stage. In general though, if your opponent goes spores for defense, due to the large investment into the spores, you are able to make a couple more drones and expand to get a second gas. It varies on what openings you and your opponent did and what happened before the spores went up on who has the upper hand, but almost always the player that went spore will not have the initiative. On July 12 2009 08:03 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I wouldn't recommend 1 hatch mutas unless your muta micro is really good, and even then its pretty much an all in build, meaning if you don't do severe damage with your early muta advantage, you've pretty much lost the game. (ex: recent match between Jaedong and Yellow[arnc]). No, you're wrong. On July 12 2009 06:39 aokces wrote: Ignore the spore (400 hp can take a lot of damage), the drone kills you get will be worth a few dead mutas. Really depends. It is so absolutely possible to win a ZvZ just simply because you have more mutalisks than the opponent regardless of drone count. On July 12 2009 08:06 beetlelisk wrote: As I read a good post on TL some time ago the only good situation to switch to Hydra is after you are low on gas I think so you go Mutaling + hydra vs mutaling. Gotta see a good game of that tho >.< Good god, no. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:39 aokces wrote: Ignore the spore (400 hp can take a lot of damage), the drone kills you get will be worth a few dead mutas. Here's a better post for your title: 'ZvZ enemy spore colony' Help, this guy went 5evo and spore rushed me. Knowing full well my overlords didn't stand a chance against the spore colonies, I decided to switch to sunken tech. But since he never built a pool, he got way ahead and eventually got the best of me with +1 carapace drones. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just overlords. Research overlord speed? Switch to lings? LMAO that's brilliant. Anyway, I can't believe no one's linked to Liquipedia yet: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerg_vs._Zerg_Guide This pretty much contains all you need to know about ZvZ as a Zerg newbie. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
His spore doesn't even guard half his fucking base! Why don't you just sit at the top of his base and kill some of his shit? Just avoid the damn spore, you don't even need micro. Just move and hold position to kill him. He's making pure drones when you can kill him. Why are your zerglings sitting at your base? Go to his. Why don't you expand or something? He obviously cannot attack, he has nothing. Oh my bad, finally you try to muta harass(with a few unstacked mutas) and then run when his second spore finishes. You can still take out like half his drones with proper micro here. Why are you switching over to hydra now? You just retreating from his base and let him expand for free. He's actually ahead of you now, despite his weird ass BO. At this point, I'm pretty sure computers can beat both of you in a ZvZ O_o I'm 10 minutes in, and not even halfway done. I'm sorry, this is just too bad to watch. Please learn some basic ZvZ. + Show Spoiler + Unless my replay is glitched or something? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I think I'm gonna have an aneurysm. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
No, you're wrong. If you're going to claim somebody is wrong, you ought to provide some evidence for the fact, otherwise your statement is worthless. It's quite simple really, 1 Hatch muta sacrifices economy and production capabilities for an early tech advantage. If you fail turn that sacrifice into an advantage somehow, your opponent is left with superior economy and production, and unless he/she completely sucks, its pretty much game over. This is demonstrated perfectly in the recent match between Jaedong and Yellow[arnc], in which, like I said, Jaedong failed to gain a significant advantage with his early tech, and was overpowered by a superior economy. Please explain to me how this is wrong. | ||
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Eben
United States769 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I mean, you're implying that any ZvZ build besides 12pool expand and 12hatch are all-in. That's just ludicrous. Jesus Christ. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On July 12 2009 12:12 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: If you're going to claim somebody is wrong, you ought to provide some evidence for the fact, otherwise your statement is worthless. It's quite simple really, 1 Hatch muta sacrifices economy and production capabilities for an early tech advantage. If you fail turn that sacrifice into an advantage somehow, your opponent is left with superior economy and production, and unless he/she completely sucks, its pretty much game over. This is demonstrated perfectly in the recent match between Jaedong and Yellow[arnc], in which, like I said, Jaedong failed to gain a significant advantage with his early tech, and was overpowered by a superior economy. Please explain to me how this is wrong. You have no clue do you? I'd say the vast majority of ZvZ's don't drop their second hatcheries until after their Lair is well in the process of being completed. 9 pool -> gas -> lair is probably the most common build.... | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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gumbum8
United States721 Posts
I'm not sure If I'm exactly qualified to help you, But I'd be glad to help you with your zvz (I'd say I have C level zvz, but I hate to say something like that w/ no evidence... But I've been raping since my stat reset (stupid friends...) Basically, shoot me a PM or something and I'd be happy to play w/ you and maybe give you pointers  | ||
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
one spore scare you to tech hydra is tard'd. there is so many good advice ppl gave u. i think most effective you can do is. ran ling in snipe drone or take a expo and drone up win it in long term because by the time hes hydra got critical mass. you should have mass muta and handful of ling to roll hes hydra army over. because ur 2 base besides. one spore cannot stop 6 muta or 4 muta. just pick drones off and he probably will gg after lost like 7 or 8 drones | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
You see, there are some times when one does not need to prove an argument due to it being complete common knowledge. The vast majority of ZvZs are 1hatch lair, you simply cannot argue against it. I mean, overpool -> lair is the safest fucking build in ZvZ; how could anyone possibly say that 1hatch lair is "all-in" in ZvZ? That's just completely ignorant. I think we have a misunderstanding about terminology. I didn't say a 1 hatch lair was "all in". I said 1 hatch Mutas was all in, meaning you are pumping mutas from only 1 hatchery, like Jaedong's recent Z v Z's. If you don't think that's all in, then I don't know what the hell is. After watching this dudes replay, I see that he did put down a second hatch after the spire, so I retract my comment, my bad. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On July 12 2009 13:37 Jayme wrote: You have no clue do you? I'd say the vast majority of ZvZ's don't drop their second hatcheries until after their Lair is well in the process of being completed. 9 pool -> gas -> lair is probably the most common build.... I'm not sure how your post contradicts his. 1-Hatch Muta specifically means building Mutalisks out of one Hatchery. If you get a second Hatchery on your way to a Lair, it isn't 1-Hatch Muta anymore because by the time your Spire gets done you have two Hatcheries. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On July 12 2009 14:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I think we have a misunderstanding about terminology. I didn't say a 1 hatch lair was "all in". I said 1 hatch Mutas was all in, meaning you are pumping mutas from only 1 hatchery, like Jaedong's recent Z v Z's. If you don't think that's all in, then I don't know what the hell is. After watching this dudes replay, I see that he did put down a second hatch after the spire, so I retract my comment, my bad. You're absolutely clueless. Please stop posting. | ||
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gumbum8
United States721 Posts
On July 12 2009 14:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I think we have a misunderstanding about terminology. I didn't say a 1 hatch lair was "all in". I said 1 hatch Mutas was all in, meaning you are pumping mutas from only 1 hatchery, like Jaedong's recent Z v Z's. If you don't think that's all in, then I don't know what the hell is. After watching this dudes replay, I see that he did put down a second hatch after the spire, so I retract my comment, my bad. ...You play zerg...? | ||
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
On July 12 2009 09:34 peidongyang wrote: Just double expand. 12 mutas owns 24 hydras if you start harrassing them the second they leave their base are you kidding me? with hydra range? no way... | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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laLAlA[uC]
Canada963 Posts
On July 12 2009 07:13 tree.hugger wrote: OP: Basically, a minimum of three mutas can o.O;; 3 Muta's kill a spore? Maybe if its Kulkulza. You can micro spores too... | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
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EEEE1234
Canada55 Posts
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Ideas
United States8074 Posts
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threepool
United States150 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
There really are things you can see for yourself, play again keeping them in mind and make thread when something less obvious happens. Avoiding the 1st Spore or just checking where mutas were and not letting them idle anywhere - as it was misplaced so badly and started morphing way too late - is pretty much really... visible? here. koreasilver talking about aneurysm is strange tho o.O flamebait? | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On July 12 2009 13:31 koreasilver wrote: You see, there are some times when one does not need to prove an argument due to it being complete common knowledge. The vast majority of ZvZs are 1hatch lair, you simply cannot argue against it. I mean, overpool -> lair is the safest fucking build in ZvZ; how could anyone possibly say that 1hatch lair is "all-in" in ZvZ? That's just completely ignorant. I mean, you're implying that any ZvZ build besides 12pool expand and 12hatch are all-in. That's just ludicrous. Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to get involved in the argument, but I want to point out that saying "everyone does it" is terrible evidence for backing up your claim. Just a few years ago, most protosses were doing 1 base in PvZ but that turned out to be the wrong way to play the matchup. Care to explain logically why 1 base muta isn't all in? After all, I'm sure plenty of people reading this thread would benefit from your supposed knowledge. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
that's pretty much it. or lingallin maybe, but why would you do that if you have a safer option to win | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On July 13 2009 20:17 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I'm not trying to get involved in the argument, but I want to point out that saying "everyone does it" is terrible evidence for backing up your claim. Just a few years ago, most protosses were doing 1 base in PvZ but that turned out to be the wrong way to play the matchup. Care to explain logically why 1 base muta isn't all in? After all, I'm sure plenty of people reading this thread would benefit from your supposed knowledge. You always get your lair within the first 200 gas you mine in ZvZ. Although this is pretty much how almost every Zerg build goes in each of the three matchups, due to the nature of ZvZ your gas timing is always fast and you never ever stop your gas intake. Due to the nature of the matchup, almost every build gets their pool and gas before anything, and due to the nonstop gas intake, a lot of the time you won't have enough drones to create a mineral surplus that will allow you to make a second hatchery for a long while. On whether or not you can take a second hatchery before mutalisk production also depends A LOT on what build you opened with, what build your opponent opened with, what both you and your opponent are trying to due, how much larva is being invested into zerglings and drones, and also the map. There are just too many variables involved that can change your second hatch timing. In example, I always go overgaspool on Destination and pump drones like mad until I see zerglings running across the map with my overlord, and due to my extremely greedy opening I am always certainly able to get a second hatch before mutalisk production. I'm able to do this because the rush distance is so so so so far that by the time my opponent's zerglings are at my base I would have enough zerglings and/or a sunk to deter my opponent's attack. However, I just simply can't do the same thing on a map like Blue Storm because overgaspool just isn't that great of a build on the map, and due to the wide, rampless choke, zergling aggression is extremely strong and important on that map. Alot of ZvZs I've played on Blue Storm started and ended with one hatchery due to nearly all my larva being spent into zerglings, mutalisk, and scourge, with my initial drones being the only drones mining throughout the entire game. I'm missing a lot of things that I know about, but I gotta get to work so I'll continue on with my explanation sometime else. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:39 aokces wrote: what the hell is this shit? trolls have to be funny to be funny...Ignore the spore (400 hp can take a lot of damage), the drone kills you get will be worth a few dead mutas. Here's a better post for your title: 'ZvZ enemy spore colony' Help, this guy went 5evo and spore rushed me. Knowing full well my overlords didn't stand a chance against the spore colonies, I decided to switch to sunken tech. But since he never built a pool, he got way ahead and eventually got the best of me with +1 carapace drones. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just overlords. Research overlord speed? Switch to lings? | ||
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Eggplant
United States120 Posts
Say opponent has S evenly spaced spore colonies, and you have M stacked mutalisks. Given the size of a base, and the range of spore colonies, you will (in all reasonable situations) be able to find a location to place your m stacked mutas so that they are taking damage from as few spore colonies as possible. They may have 200 spore colonies around the map, but at any given location, because of muta stacking, you will easily outnumber the spores, during which time, if you can do significant damage to economy/tech, while only taking damage from a single colony, it's definitely worth the pain! | ||
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Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
On July 12 2009 06:39 aokces wrote: Ignore the spore (400 hp can take a lot of damage), the drone kills you get will be worth a few dead mutas. Here's a better post for your title: 'ZvZ enemy spore colony' Help, this guy went 5evo and spore rushed me. Knowing full well my overlords didn't stand a chance against the spore colonies, I decided to switch to sunken tech. But since he never built a pool, he got way ahead and eventually got the best of me with +1 carapace drones. My question is, what should I do in a ZvZ if there is a spore colony? Those things are a big challenge to kill with just overlords. Research overlord speed? Switch to lings? OMG LOL, THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE BEST TACTIC EVER.. *rushes off to try it* | ||
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