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Hello folks, havent made a thread in a while...
So far, with the new trends, almost always you can expect protoss to go fast exp in ZvP. Zerg has adapted by doing pool-first builds and then expanding while having temporary map control.
Expand twice and play the macro game.... standard.
But have you tried other builds? Lately i've been having lots of success with slow lurk drop. Let me explain:
You go your standard 9 pool speedlings and kill the scouting probe asap. Instead of taking the first expo, you keep the 3 drones in gas and tech to lair. If you had some luck, you've already killed by now protoss probe, and he wont suspect. Let's go with this scenario first.
So protoss did 2 cannons and is warping nexus. When lair ir Half-done, start hydra den. Your lair and the hydra den will be completed when toss nexus has finished warping. (you've denied further scouting with your speedlings). So you have 3 ovies by now, send them all towards near protoss main. Start researching immediatly ovie drop, followed by lurkers. Then make asap 3-4 hydras and rally them to your ovies. Bring your lings there, too.
You'll morph the lurkers and load them to the ovies asap. Now, 2 things may happen:
a) Protoss smelled something fishy: He'll have a couple of cannons in his mineral line. Absolutely no problem, you'll be unloading 3 lurkers and a couple of lings. You may pick 2 things, either destroy cannons that protect the nexus, or destroy cannons that protect the mineral line. Even if protoss starts robo immediatly, 3 lurkers will kill his main nexus putting you ahead of the game.
b) Protoss made fast corsair. You'll need to have the timing just perfect. At most he'll have 2 sairs (most likely only one), but you have 3 ovies. He may kill at most one of them. You'll ling/lurk drop him and kill his main with ease.
Now what happens if protoss sees with the probe an early lair? he'll probably put cannons around his nexuses. Dont worry, just keep this line because we have seen in case a) that you can easily shred a cannon or 2 with 6-8 lings and 3 lurks.
Follow ups:
Be quick, and when you drop protoss main, dont be afraid and take 2 expos. Protoss will be too busy defending his main to do anything about it. (Also, he wont have enough army to counter, because you can easily kill 4-5 zealots anyway).
Now you'll probably have 3 bases + lair tech, and you'll be researching ovie speed. Protoss has absolutely nowhere to run, and if he took another main while you killed his, you can easily load a 12 hydra 4 lurk drop and shred whatever.
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Now, what happens when toss goes 2 gate instead of fast exp? No problem, just keep pumping lings while you take your expo, he wont be able to split his army in 2 because your lings will reign supreme, and if he leaves his ramp unguarded, you'll easily run 8 lings in his main and cause enough havoc to even up.
So now, i'd like you to discuss possible weakness of this build, good counters, variations or follow-ups, as i've seen this only from the zerg perspective and had much success with this.
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17053 Posts
How are you managing to keep the Protoss from seeing that you didn't take your nat? O_o
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17053 Posts
Oh, and if this were to ever happen to me, I'd sacrifice whatever base you're attacking, cannon the fuck out of the other base, and send all my existing units straight to counter your main.
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On June 10 2009 00:30 Empyrean wrote:
How are you managing to keep the Protoss from seeing that you didn't take your nat? O_o
you have speedlings to deny further scouting. Also, if you cannon the fuck out of your other base, how many units will you have to counter? if you teched right after getting your nat you wont have more than 3 zealots, which ill be eaten alive by even 8 lings or 1 lurk..
I think what could harm the most would be corsairs, sniping every overlord out there but you could just make 2-3 hydras and protect them.
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wow, you have no chance of winning unless you get massive amount of probekills with simultanous drop to nat and main.
otherwise toss can just sacriface other base and kill you with his superior ecomy.
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On June 10 2009 00:43 Piste wrote:
wow, you have no chance of winning unless you get massive amount of probekills with simultanous drop to nat and main.
otherwise toss can just sacriface other base and kill you with his superior ecomy.
How is fast expanding, losing your main and cannoning your natural a superior economy? o.O
Its not like he would be able to move out of his base with a decent force of anything but Zealots, that get raped by Lurkers, anytime soon.
I think this build could work well if you can prevent the P player from seeing that you didnt expand and if his Corsair scout came a little late, otherwise he would get enough cannons to prevent you from doing enough damage.
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Against someone who is equal or greater skill than you I don't see this build working at all. When I play PvZ i usually get an early goon to clear out any overlords close to my base while my corsair goes and checks the Zerg main out. If the Pprotoss player sees any of this you are SOL, if I saw 3 overlords near my base or heading towards my base I would instantly think something is up some sort of drop. This build revolves around keeping the Protoss player completely in the dark, if the Protoss player sees the over lords the lack of expansions the Zerg main then the game is pretty much gg for the Zerg player. If you can keep the Protoss player completely in the dark it could work but I don't see this as a viable long term strategy against better players.
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Even if you somehow kill his nexus, its doubtful that you kill every building in his main, and youre still in one base, its very possible for the toss to come back with sair reaver play.
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Hey~ Teach me a gay 2 hatch hydra bust while you are at it =)
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Since you're denying scouting, protoss will put up 2 cannons in his main along with fast corsairs because they fear fast mutas. I would imagine that lurker aspect will be done at the time when a corsair would reach your base. There is nothing to hide at that point.
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I think the corsair should reach in time to kill find your ovies near his base, also its too gas heavy and expensive 200/200 for lurk upgrade plus 200/200 for drop, plus 3 lurks 300 gas. how can you afford that on 1base? you cant make lurks in time coz of lack of gas, scouting probe finds out that you have no nat or very late nat until your lings speed upgrade kicks off.. I just dont think it works. 2hatch lurker/ling break is better.
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I don't think it's gonna be that easy to deny a probe scout, unless your micro is ridiculous. At least not from him finding out you don't have a nat.
How is fast expanding, losing your main and cannoning your natural a superior economy? o.O
Its not like he would be able to move out of his base with a decent force of anything but Zealots, that get raped by Lurkers, anytime soon.
I think this build could work well if you can prevent the P player from seeing that you didnt expand and if his Corsair scout came a little late, otherwise he would get enough cannons to prevent you from doing enough damage.
After Toss FEs, he has that much more time before the drop comes (which is awhile) to gain all the resources he needs, which will put him ahead in economy, and if a toss ever has more bases than z, trust me its a big difference. the chance that the P will lose his main isn't even 100%, it is actually very slim because this build has a lot of flaws. With all of this in mind, a few extra cannons wouldn't really bring down the P's economy either.
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On June 10 2009 01:15 SuperJongMan wrote:
Hey~ Teach me a gay 2 hatch hydra bust while you are at it =)
overpool speed
deny scout
2nd hatch
when you kill his probe start mining gas
range first at den
keep denying scout
when sair comes attack
gg
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This build doesn't work. I tried it like 4 times at D+ level and it gets countered so easily. You had a good idea but it simply doesn't work. You said that you had some success with it? What maps did u play on, and what rank were your opponents.
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Can you post some replays of this working?
I think the fact that you will lose at least three overlords every game at the time when you say you are going to drone up as well as double expand will really hurt you. I also have no idea how you intend to have any army to stop him from killing at least one of your expansions with 5 zealots. You don't have enough larvae to stop him with zerglings or enough lurkers to kill him before he kills a hatch, as well as you will be hard pressed to keep him from running into your main as well with your low unit count.
This is all speculation of course, which is why I would like to see a replay of how your games play out.
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17053 Posts
To be fair, I saw OneOther own up some D/D+'s when he was offracing Zerg.
Although they probably would've lost to a Guardian rush as well.
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On June 10 2009 00:51 CrimsonLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2009 00:43 Piste wrote:
wow, you have no chance of winning unless you get massive amount of probekills with simultanous drop to nat and main.
otherwise toss can just sacriface other base and kill you with his superior ecomy. How is fast expanding, losing your main and cannoning your natural a superior economy? o.O Its not like he would be able to move out of his base with a decent force of anything but Zealots, that get raped by Lurkers, anytime soon. I think this build could work well if you can prevent the P player from seeing that you didnt expand and if his Corsair scout came a little late, otherwise he would get enough cannons to prevent you from doing enough damage.
protoss has had two bases making probes for a while. he could buid so much shit faster than zerg with fast slowdrop from one base.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
didn't someone do this build in TSL?
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On June 10 2009 03:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:
didn't someone do this build in TSL?
Dinot slowdropped hydralurker into JFs base but I think he had more than one hatchery.
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EPT
