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What is the difference between 9 pool and overpool in ZvP? When should I use the one or the other with or without speed?
In ZvP when should I use 9 pool or overpool with or without gas. On Medusa overpool is supposed to be the best, but on Destination the lings are to slow to force 2 cannons before nex as it would on Medusa. When should I do the one or the other with speed and without? What is it that decides what BO you should use.
And should I go pool first builds without speed. Or is it just wast to not stop the scouting completly and scare the P to maby overdefend witch he would not do vs a fast pool without speed?
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when the map is bigger, you need faster lings and therefor the 9pool.
when you dont need lings that fast, you go for overpool.
whatever the rest of your tactic is, is up to you how to use the lings.
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overpool has 2 drones mining for more time than 9 pool. Personally, I think overpool is a lot better than 9 pool.
The thing about 12 hatch is it can get really gay if the protoss can put a pylon down to block your hatch. So in 2 player maps, I like to play overpool without gas if I want to get a fast expansion down. It stops all the 9/9 gates pretty well and it also prevents pylons from going up in your nat hatch spot. Also, what you can do is save up 2 larva and make drones right when your pool finishes. This will force the toss to make cannons while you can just use those drones as extra economy.
I'm not sure about when 9 pool is better than overpool. Maybe close rush distances to force cannons? Although overpool can force cannons a lot too.
With speed:
pros: less economy than without speed.
denies scouting
can make a toss make 3 cannons (if he's korean. foreigners tend to sack up and stay with 2 cannons. Can also do a runby that can basically kill a toss)
you have your gas down which can lead to very fast muta if you put drones bak on gas after killing scout. You can also 2 hatch hydra with this or 3 hatch speedling.
cons: Less economy
hatchery comes slower.
If he just puts 2 cannons and can block your runby, you're pretty far behind.
other questions are pretty subjective.
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Pool without speed to force cannons first, 9pool or overpool depends on base distances
Get speed if you want, you basically just sacrifice a bit of econ to stop early scouting and threaten runby.
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the eco difference is little if not none, so 9 pool is just as viable and you get earlier lings, so.... yeah.
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On May 18 2009 04:28 CoL_DarkstaR wrote:
when the map is bigger, you need faster lings and therefor the 9pool.
when you dont need lings that fast, you go for overpool.
whatever the rest of your tactic is, is up to you how to use the lings.
no when the map is smaller, you need faster lings.
This is because it takes him a lot longer to find you / pressure you so you can start off with a better economy
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Zurich15364 Posts
On May 18 2009 05:42 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2009 04:28 CoL_DarkstaR wrote:
when the map is bigger, you need faster lings and therefor the 9pool.
when you dont need lings that fast, you go for overpool.
whatever the rest of your tactic is, is up to you how to use the lings. no when the map is smaller, you need faster lings. This is because it takes him a lot longer to find you / pressure you so you can start off with a better economy
Darkstar has it right. The idea of 9pool is to force the Protoss to build cannons before nexus. Thus on larger maps you need fast lings or P can nexus first and still be safe.
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On May 18 2009 05:42 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2009 04:28 CoL_DarkstaR wrote:
when the map is bigger, you need faster lings and therefor the 9pool.
when you dont need lings that fast, you go for overpool.
whatever the rest of your tactic is, is up to you how to use the lings. no when the map is smaller, you need faster lings. This is because it takes him a lot longer to find you / pressure you so you can start off with a better economy
Sorry, you have no clue what you're talking about. The idea is that Zerg needs lings fast enough to get to the Protoss base before he can go nexus > cannon >cannon.
On a larger map, you need faster lings to get that.
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The difference between overpool and 9pool is (sorry but obviously) the time in which lings can get to an opponents base for a runby.
To explain more directly. On destination if you overpool toss your odds of being able to beat both cannons and getting slow lings to get into tosses bases straight off is very slow, since protoss can easily get cannons in time. While with 9pool you can quite often (imo all that way up to c+) get at least 3 lings inside of protoss base, with ling speed finishing about 7 seconds after you run past tosses ramp. 3 speedlings inside of protosses base before he gets a gateway is a huge huge deal.
Overpool is good at allowing you to very easily transition into standard 3 hat lair -> 5 hat economy/gameplay. Also overpool can (in a less suicidal fashion) run by with 8-10 lings and get sometimes up to 5-6 lings into tosses base, which with any form of decent micro/macro is an auto-win.
Also with 9pool if you make those additional lings after your first six, your economy is so shot to hell that your third hat and lair are extremely late, in otherwords without dealing damage you can be light years behind protoss in both technology and economy, which is very hard to overcome.
Now the issue of gas or no gas. Overpool-11hat is an amazing build order. You can still get alot of auto-runbys against cocky/bad protoss players, and your hatchery is only 5 or 6 seconds later then a 12 hat. Overpool gives huge advantages against proxygates, and blind macro toss. Also just doing it and denying basic probe inflitration will disrupt alot of protoss builds, which will give you a chance of them 'over building' and leaving a huge timing window, or shoot their economy in the foot and getting their second gas very early, or very late.
Overpool-speed is amazing because you can cancel speed at 99%, which to lair after your third hat, build drones until 17/17, make a lair-> overlord then put drones on gas and still have enough gas when your lair is done for a spire, while you can fully recover from any economic setback, also protoss will often make a third cannon and/or block some holes with probes.
9pool without speed isn't that great of a build zvp at all imo. It doesn't give you any of the flexiblity of an overpool, it has work economy of an overpool, and you don't have an extractor to grief toss with the possiblity of 2 hat / 3 hat hydra/muta/ling all-in's.
Most of the 'facts' I gave are 100% solid, my opinions about the uses of them are biased and based off of gameplay and observation, so they can and should be taken as 'opinion'.
Cheers!
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When playing 9 pool without gas, you always use the extractor trick to get 10/9 then cancel the gas and get an overlord. Your overlord and pool will finish at the same time with 3 larva ready, a hatchery can be put down right after 6 lings. Overpool has 11 drones before lings, 9 pool has 10 drones, with a one drone difference.
By getting 2 drones before third hatch in 9 pool, you then eliminate the drone difference entirely, transferring the econ delay to tech. Since normally if you open 9 pool you will lose 1 overlord to the first corsair no matter what, the tech delay of 1 extra drone makes virtually no difference.
In my experience the econ difference between 9 pool and over pool is insignificant. In the 5 hatch hydra build for example, with overpool the best econ advantage I had squeezed out was about 3-5 extra hydras by the 9 minute mark. That said, if you cannot get additional advantages with 9 pool, there is no reason not to go for overpool, after all, extra hydras are always good.
You should choose whichever build that can force 2 cannons. On large maps use 9 pool due to extra walking time, on small maps use overpool. The layout of the natural also makes a difference, on Destination for example, even though the distance is not long, P can form almost a complete build block around 1 cannon with gateway, forge, nexus, and pylon. There is no way you can force 2 cannons with overpool, so I always go with 9 pool. On maps like return of the moon where the nat is difficult to wall off, overpool is usually enough to force 2 cannons.
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On May 18 2009 06:50 AttackZerg wrote:
Now the issue of gas or no gas. Overpool-11hat is an amazing build order. You can still get alot of auto-runbys against cocky/bad protoss players, and your hatchery is only 5 or 6 seconds later then a 12 hat. Overpool gives huge advantages against proxygates, and blind macro toss. Also just doing it and denying basic probe inflitration will disrupt alot of protoss builds, which will give you a chance of them 'over building' and leaving a huge timing window, or shoot their economy in the foot and getting their second gas very early, or very late.
Overpool-speed is amazing because you can cancel speed at 99%, which to lair after your third hat, build drones until 17/17, make a lair-> overlord then put drones on gas and still have enough gas when your lair is done for a spire, while you can fully recover from any economic setback, also protoss will often make a third cannon and/or block some holes with probes.
Cheers!
Bolded the part that confuses me
So basically. Overlord -> Pool -> Gas right?
Get ling speed and then send your lings. If you can't runby cancel ling speed and get lair instead right?
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That would be my interpretation. I don't see any other reason to have to cancel speed.
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my opinion on overpool vs 9drone non gas:
overpool is mostly a macro defencive build in case the opponent cheeses or something, youd be able to block it while exping early
i think the build started getting popular when tau cross came out, alot of p's were cannon rushing z users if theyd 12hat(pylon blocking the entrace out of the main) and even 12pooled wasnt fast enough to block it so players started to overpool
anyways from a toss perspective 9pool hurts us more because were forced to add 2 cannons before exping but against an overpool i can exp and then add my cannons, which is a pretty big advantage for me, as z you can even gas cancel and get an extra drone which doesnt put u that far back from an overpool eco-wise.. thats why i feel that 9pool>overpool if you want to play a defencive/macro style, adding gas = makes your b.o offencive
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Thx all 
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imo overpool is better in general because on most maps it still forces the P to go cannons first and it gives better economy than 9 pool. Also, it seems to me that if you are going to 9 pool you should also get early ling speed because otherwise the P player won't really fear a run-in.
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Think overpool like 12 pool...
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From my general experience in playing vs. 9pool/overpool, i've found that generally people who go overpool will be playing a troop production/macro oriented game. Where as 9pool tends to be done more by slightly cheesy or all-in players.
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Overpool is the better build if you are planning to do 24-36 ling break/runby on FE protoss. It relies heavily on them not seeing more than the inital few lings or the speed up.
9pool+speed is better if you are planning to pressure from the get go.
9pool+speed is not really that great of a counter for proxy gate(s) although it helps, the protoss just retreats to ramp before the speed kicks in anyways. Overpool basically accomplishes the same thing but you wasted tech/time/money on the speed so early.
About the map rush distances, I don't think you do either build over the other just for this reason, it is dependent on what you are trying to do.
I use all 3 openings (12 hatch,O9P,9PO) on all kinds of maps and they all work fine.
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On May 19 2009 08:34 CharlieMurphy wrote:
About the map rush distances, I don't think you do either build over the other just for this reason, it is dependent on what you are trying to do.
Good point, however, when you are trying to do the same thing with either build, ie. force 2 cannons before nexus, without any intention to make more than the initial lings, map distance becomes a big factor.
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On May 19 2009 11:50 w3jjjj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2009 08:34 CharlieMurphy wrote:
About the map rush distances, I don't think you do either build over the other just for this reason, it is dependent on what you are trying to do.
Good point, however, when you are trying to do the same thing with either build, ie. force 2 cannons before nexus, without any intention to make more than the initial lings, map distance becomes a big factor.
Exactly.
For instance on bluestorm. Overpool or overpool speed are strong early-earlymidgame map controling builds but because of the nature of the map, the closest rush distance threw the tiny gap is easily blocked and walls are easy for form in both locations, protoss can get 100% macro advantage against either. With 9pool or 9pool speed they MUST build there cannons very quickly vs a proactive zerg otherwise an walk by is easy.
Also the longer the rush distance the weaker any pool first opening becomes and the stronger builds like 12/12/14 become.
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This thread is AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There should be a wiki entry explaining the difference between these build orders.
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On May 18 2009 04:28 CoL_DarkstaR wrote:
when the map is bigger, you need faster lings and therefor the 9pool.
when you dont need lings that fast, you go for overpool.
whatever the rest of your tactic is, is up to you how to use the lings.
This basically. In ZvP mainly you use 9 pool instead of over 9 on long maps like destination to still force him to forge cannon cannon or forge cannon/pull probes. Instead of forge nexus cannon cannon like he could do against over 9.
The speed thing is a preference. Up to you..do you want to deny scouting to make him guess your build more until sair is out...or do you want a faster third expo up and slightly faster tech.
Against T its very situational/map dependent. Most of the time you dont want to do either one. An example of when you do however is 12/3 on a map like python where you scout him without him seeing your overlord , then you might want to 9 pool. Orrrr conversely you scout him WITH him seeing your overlord and you want to econ but you want 6 lings out to apply pressure and prevent him from blocking your nat hatch.
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On May 18 2009 04:31 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
overpool has 2 drones mining for more time than 9 pool. Personally, I think overpool is a lot better than 9 pool.
The thing about 12 hatch is it can get really gay if the protoss can put a pylon down to block your hatch. So in 2 player maps, I like to play overpool without gas if I want to get a fast expansion down. It stops all the 9/9 gates pretty well and it also prevents pylons from going up in your nat hatch spot. Also, what you can do is save up 2 larva and make drones right when your pool finishes. This will force the toss to make cannons while you can just use those drones as extra economy.
I'm not sure about when 9 pool is better than overpool. Maybe close rush distances to force cannons? Although overpool can force cannons a lot too.
With speed:
pros: less economy than without speed.
denies scouting
can make a toss make 3 cannons (if he's korean. foreigners tend to sack up and stay with 2 cannons. Can also do a runby that can basically kill a toss)
you have your gas down which can lead to very fast muta if you put drones bak on gas after killing scout. You can also 2 hatch hydra with this or 3 hatch speedling.
cons: Less economy
hatchery comes slower.
If he just puts 2 cannons and can block your runby, you're pretty far behind.
other questions are pretty subjective.
On long maps saving 2 larvae and making drones WONT make P make cannons if hes good. He will simply watch your hatch carefully and react to the exact units you're making/when you send the lings to the nat instead of chasing the probe. At higher levels of play run by is rarely a good idea because most good ps always have good probe placement to block. Losing those initial lings is huge. Every larvae counts in the early game.
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u can think of 9pool and overpool like 2gate tech and 1gate tech. 9pool is more aggresive and forces the toss to get 2 cannons. toss can get away with a nexus if zerg does overpool
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On May 18 2009 06:50 AttackZerg wrote:
The difference between overpool and 9pool is (sorry but obviously) the time in which lings can get to an opponents base for a runby.
To explain more directly. On destination if you overpool toss your odds of being able to beat both cannons and getting slow lings to get into tosses bases straight off is very slow, since protoss can easily get cannons in time. While with 9pool you can quite often (imo all that way up to c+) get at least 3 lings inside of protoss base, with ling speed finishing about 7 seconds after you run past tosses ramp. 3 speedlings inside of protosses base before he gets a gateway is a huge huge deal.
Overpool is good at allowing you to very easily transition into standard 3 hat lair -> 5 hat economy/gameplay. Also overpool can (in a less suicidal fashion) run by with 8-10 lings and get sometimes up to 5-6 lings into tosses base, which with any form of decent micro/macro is an auto-win.
Also with 9pool if you make those additional lings after your first six, your economy is so shot to hell that your third hat and lair are extremely late, in otherwords without dealing damage you can be light years behind protoss in both technology and economy, which is very hard to overcome.
Now the issue of gas or no gas. Overpool-11hat is an amazing build order. You can still get alot of auto-runbys against cocky/bad protoss players, and your hatchery is only 5 or 6 seconds later then a 12 hat. Overpool gives huge advantages against proxygates, and blind macro toss. Also just doing it and denying basic probe inflitration will disrupt alot of protoss builds, which will give you a chance of them 'over building' and leaving a huge timing window, or shoot their economy in the foot and getting their second gas very early, or very late.
Overpool-speed is amazing because you can cancel speed at 99%, which to lair after your third hat, build drones until 17/17, make a lair-> overlord then put drones on gas and still have enough gas when your lair is done for a spire, while you can fully recover from any economic setback, also protoss will often make a third cannon and/or block some holes with probes.
9pool without speed isn't that great of a build zvp at all imo. It doesn't give you any of the flexiblity of an overpool, it has work economy of an overpool, and you don't have an extractor to grief toss with the possiblity of 2 hat / 3 hat hydra/muta/ling all-in's.
Most of the 'facts' I gave are 100% solid, my opinions about the uses of them are biased and based off of gameplay and observation, so they can and should be taken as 'opinion'.
Cheers!
Awesome post! Thanks
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You guys do know something. Go edit liquipedia.
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EPT
