• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:41
CET 20:41
KST 04:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
What's the best tug of war? The Grack before Christmas Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2?
Tourneys
OSC Season 13 World Championship $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
How soO Began His ProGaming Dreams BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recommended FPV games (post-KeSPA) BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Mechabellum Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How Does UI/UX Design Influence User Trust? Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
National Diversity: A Challe…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2068 users

[G] The Sair Zealot - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-01 02:06:52
April 01 2009 02:05 GMT
#41
Skipping the +1 makes it faster because the citadel and therefore leg speed is faster (the 2nd gas only affects templar archives).

And im pretty sure all games where zerg opens mutas are when the toss makes no more than 1 or 2 corsairs or any at all, because you dont make mutas when the stargate keeps blinking because for one, a muta opening is rather easily scouted and if you mass drones they wont be in time and if you cut drones, making sunkens + lings is painfully expensive if the toss has speedzeals.

Usually you see pros switching to mutas far into midgame after they have really thinned corsair numbers with scourges and making more corsairs is not affordable because its critical to secure with hts that 4th (or even 3rd) for the protoss and zerg has already a pretty sizeable hydra army.

For a vod on how mutas can go really wrong even if properly timed vs a sair build watch jaedong vs bisu on neo harmony.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Neon_Monkey
Profile Joined February 2008
United States270 Posts
April 01 2009 02:54 GMT
#42
In Jaedong vs bisu, Jaedong made his mutas immediatly after his spire was done and his second gas unfinished at that point. Then he lost all his mutas trying to break cannons with like 5 mutalisks and no scourge for some reason and then instead of transitioning into hydras he made like 10 more mutas that did nothing and then he didn't even have hydra speed by the time 2 archons were out and at his nat. And there have been plenty of games where Z purposely makes mutas vs corsair builds (although they don't always win, they aren't behind because of it): Yarnc vs Stork on medusa, as already described, savior vs best on collo, haran vs best on chupung with a few other games I don't remember, like half the games on blue storm, July vs Jangbi on harmony, Luxury vs Jangbi on Carthage, July vs some toss on andro, and I think bisu vs zero? (I just remember bisu losing like 5 sairs to scourge at the end of the game).

According to the guide the speedlots hit at 7:10. Just taking the timing from the recent TL rep of infernal vs I_wish_you at 6:45 he has 3 fully saturated bases, a sunken, a hydra den, 5 hatches, and still has enough money for 8 mutalisks along with his scourge that are already out. So if you cut the hydra den out and a few drones you can still have lings at your nat to stop a runby if he splits them in half. And in one of the reps of this build the attack actually hits at 7:30. In the one on colo it hits at 7:20 and he leaves his base right before 7 mins. However in that rep he made 1 cannon at his choke, 1 at his main, and none at his nat. Thats really cutting it tight to get the zeals out even that early which is a little later than the guide describes.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-01 03:18:24
April 01 2009 03:13 GMT
#43
I cant remember every single game you posted but the ones i do remember the zerg winning, the protoss never had more than 2 corsairs at the time the mutas arrived at their base.

And as for the infernal rep, yes he had the money for mutas but other upgrades had bigger priorities and the mutas ended up coming much later than 7:10 and being useful a bit later than 8:00
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
April 01 2009 03:19 GMT
#44
This build isn't really the "holy grail of PvZ" like the zeal+2 archon push that SJM published earlier. It's a strong build, but I feel it's more to give secure you a third and help your transition into later game than it is to outright kill a zerg. It definitely has some weaknesses, but at the same time, some strengths too. It's just another build to add to your list of builds.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-02 17:06:51
April 02 2009 17:05 GMT
#45
I actually like this build a lot.
I wanna learn a really good reaver sair zealot build...
I should go look for it too.

If you don't believe me, just try to keep pushing Muta into this build.
Have fun. It's definitely not easy.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Brain Bouts
17:00
#103
Reynor vs ScarlettLIVE!
RotterdaM1287
IndyStarCraft 285
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1287
IndyStarCraft 285
mouzHeroMarine 257
ProTech108
BRAT_OK 104
NeuroSwarm 96
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2556
Dewaltoss 121
Shuttle 110
Hyun 74
Sexy 26
Shine 10
Dota 2
qojqva5244
Fuzer 206
League of Legends
C9.Mang0189
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu271
Khaldor260
Trikslyr60
Other Games
Grubby1893
fl0m1013
Beastyqt957
B2W.Neo375
crisheroes323
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 13
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 45
• LUISG 15
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 16
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler88
Other Games
• imaqtpie2427
• Shiphtur521
• tFFMrPink 17
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
5h 19m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 14h
Krystianer vs TBD
TriGGeR vs SKillous
Percival vs TBD
ByuN vs Nicoract
OSC
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
OSC
3 days
Solar vs MaxPax
ByuN vs Krystianer
Spirit vs TBD
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.