EPTedit: you have to watch all 3 parts but this sounds really similar to what you were describing.
[G] The Sair Zealot - Page 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Flyingsnow
Japan208 Posts
edit: you have to watch all 3 parts but this sounds really similar to what you were describing. | ||
|
thunk
United States6233 Posts
I love how PGR21 does strategy with reps. Seems oh so logical. I look forward to Part II SJM | ||
|
Raithed
China7078 Posts
| ||
|
sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
| ||
|
Sanity.
United States704 Posts
| ||
|
jamster1211
Taiwan153 Posts
all he ever makes are zealots | ||
|
rredtooth
5464 Posts
On March 30 2009 14:51 Hyperionnn wrote: Best example ever for this build: that definitely doesn't look like it. i've watched it before and skimmed through it just now but bisu got his archives much faster and got templars (both high and dark) out early before he pushed. heck if anything it looked more like the +1 speedlot and archon push. | ||
|
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
If anyone wants to help out with tidbits I linked the threads. Enjoy killing zergs~ Bye~ | ||
Empyrean
17082 Posts
| ||
|
sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
They are on the top. It says file #1 and file #2. | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On March 30 2009 11:44 SuperJongMan wrote: * When scouting with the first sair, If a spire and natural gas is up, put 3 cannons @ main. (You don't wanna get scourged all at once and type GG) From a Zerg point of view, that's pretty good advice. Damn. What Zerg opening puts Zerg in the best position against this build? | ||
|
vAltyR
United States581 Posts
Thanks for the translation, I'll start working on this as soon as I get the 4gate2archon build down! | ||
|
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
Sometimes, Zergs are assholes and just go straight Den. If you see this, this is not the build you want to be stuck with, it is possible to win sure, but you're at a disadvantage. When will this kind of thing be scouted, and what other builds could you move in the direction of if that happened? *Off 1 gas: Star - Adun - Sair - Sair How many zealots will you have by this time? It seems like if you scout them and they're being aggressive you'll want to prioritize things other than star sair sair. | ||
|
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Ofc being stuck with just zealots isn't good vs mass hydras but it's not so hard to hold with goon templar. and get a 3rd. The build was displayed by Stork in batoo re-games. I dunno, you want me to write the guide again so you can try reading it? | ||
|
Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
 When does that actually ever happen? | ||
|
broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
there's a game in which stork owned jaedong with it in the wcg, when jd assumed stork was building mass corsairs. a game recently, Nony vs. F91, check out the 1st game in which zealots failed. | ||
|
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
| ||
|
Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
The guide says to make 3 cannons and defend with 4 corsairs while you go on a split up suicide attempt to damage him with speedlots, but what if the zerg just defends? Even if he only has like 7-8 mutas by the time you have 4 sairs because he got his second gas after his 5th hatch then lings+sunks is still good to prevent you from running around as his small number of mutalisks kills your zealots because they don't even have +1 to clear through the lings at a good speed . Then it says afterwards that the attack actually comes at 6 corsairs and that you somehow find his scourge with your zealots and easily pick them off before battling his mutalisks? I just don't understand how that is realistic at all. Of course it depends on if the zerg actually does this. But the point of the 3 hatch spire build is that the only time the zerg doesn't see exactly what you are doing is the time between when he suicides an overlord as your first sair pops out and when his scourge are out. With this build 2 gates go down as the stargate builds which he should see. And even if he doesn't then he can see that you have no +1 air attack going at your core, and no second gas or robo at your nat and will obviously go mutalisks. In the event that the zerg mindlessly goes 5 hatch hydra against mass speedlots then great, but in that case you could have just gone +1 speedlots after your first corsair and probably would have worked even better. You say that Stork used this and won in the batoo regames and after watching that Vod he obviously did. But as was 99% expected, yarnc saw a build with only 1 gas and went mutalisks. And the guide claims in both parts that mutalisks are so easy to deal with. Yet stork was not only unable to do anything with his zealots but he could barely defend his gateways. Yarnc ended up doing minimal damage and stork managed to just barely morph an archon, while yarcn left with half his mutas dead and the other half almost dead, putting this build in the best possible position vs any zerg that doesn't suck at scouting and as such stork was not ahead, he just wasn't behind. For the next 10 mins of the game it is pretty much stork contained with a 3 bases vs a 4 base Z with even supply and managed to come out on top in a somewhat even game. Had stork not had a free 3rd base to take while he was contained he would have almost certainly have lost anyways. So now I guess that it makes this build decent on maps in which you have a free 3rd base like medusa and andromeda, and Bisu has used the "part 2" of this build to great effect on andro and medusa from what I see and won pretty much every game easily as it appears closer to a normal build and so the zergs tried to transition into 6 hatch hydra with 4 bases, so I guess its hard to argue against it there. But also in the case of stork vs yarnc, stork managed to sneak a probe into yarncs base and so he knew the build was able to work. However if he had not, then this is a build you pretty much have to start doing before your sair scouts his base. Had yarnc done the ever so popular 3 hatch lurker into 5 hatch hydralurk to break the temples on medusa then wtf would this build have done? Zealots suck against lurks and can't even be used for suicide as zerg has only 1 choke to his 3 bases and corsairs sure aren't going to stop it. Without reavers or storm the only thing this build can really do is get a crapload of cannons at both chokes and get a really delayed storm with a very low gas build against a giant containment build. Goodluck with that. I know you have added that the build isn't some dominate PvZ build but it seems to think that it works great vs no matter what the zerg does as it includes everything the zerg can do in the guide, making it seem like it can be used all the time. So from what I see this is a very good build on Medusa if you know what the zerg is doing, and Andromeda. However the guide doesn't say that and whoever wrote it doesn't seem to think that at all. It's not like I completely disagree with this guide and thanks for taking the time to translate it. It just annoys me that everyone thinks this is so great and then some people post videos of completely different openings claiming that the build is awesome. But mostly I just took the time to write this because the severe underestimation of mutalisks against the "Bisu" build is really bugging me. | ||
|
Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
Splitting your forces is the best way to deal damage vs a muta zerg because he wont have many lings and you arent waiting for the +1 either so this speedzeal attack is coming at a pretty decent time. Going above 11 mutas vs corsairs is just suicide because you just cant compete in mutaling production as he can in corsair/zeal/archon. and its much harder for the zerg to micro mutas than its for the protoss to micro corsairs, especially when theres an archon nearby. Best and most standard build on andromeda is corsairs with speedshuttle reaver to take that island quick into standard play or even carriers. | ||
|
Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
On April 01 2009 10:14 Cloud wrote: Its good vs mutas because mutas cant do anything at all to harm the protoss unless the zerg gets rather lucky with the scourge or theres no more than a single cannon. Splitting your forces is the best way to deal damage vs a muta zerg because he wont have many lings and you arent waiting for the +1 either so this speedzeal attack is coming at a pretty decent time. Going above 11 mutas vs corsairs is just suicide because you just cant compete in mutaling production as he can in corsair/zeal/archon. and its much harder for the zerg to micro mutas than its for the protoss to micro corsairs, especially when theres an archon nearby. Best and most standard build on andromeda is corsairs with speedshuttle reaver to take that island quick into standard play or even carriers. I don't get how skipping +1 makes the rush any faster. With a +1 rush your +1 finishes at the earliest possible time zealot leg can finish, so its basically just doing a +1 rush which is pretty much agreed as being bad vs 3 hatch spire but this gets an insignificant number of corsairs with the rush. And yes, obviously going above 11 mutas is risky against hardcore corsair builds but you can just get like 11 and transition into something else. But even so going above 11 isn't THAT bad. Even against normal 2 gas builds it has shown time and time again that they don't "counter" mutalisk builds. In 1 game recently on chupung (i forget the players) a zerg delayed the P's 3rd for like 3 mins whent he P had like 5 sairs and 2 archons (or I might be mixxing up 2 different games with similairish builds?). July completely ranover jangbi with them in the race war, but I guess jangbi suicided 3 corsairs so that isn't the best of examples. There have games recently where they just go mutas and transition straight into ultras (although they lose in the late game) and never seem to have problems killing stuff and defending fine with the mutas. And last year savior won like 3 games vs normal 2 gas builds making nothing but mutalisks all game, showing that you can keep up mutaling production vs archon+sair builds that have even normal gas timings while defending 5 bases. Jaedong also did it vs Much on athena showing that you don't even need more than 3 gas to do so (although that was goon-da-storm). Obviously those are progamers and no one else has similair muta micro but I'm not saying get more than a dozen mutas vs those builds. But when you start bringing in B level players and above and claiming it works you obviously need to talk about people who have at least decent mutalisk micro. And its not like the zerg just screams "I'm going mutalisks!" they get them right after the scourge chase the first sairs away which is viable against this build as the speedlot rush is delayed by about the same ammount of time due to getting the stargate before citadel. I guess because P is determined to do a corsair build anyways that part doesn't matter, but the main point is just he can't get both corsairs and archons off of 1 gas. The build can't even afford +1 air or ground attack, the ground which is needed eventually, let alone make enough archons to matter at a reasonable timing. And the templar archives is so late that your 4th base will already be saturated and have transitioned into probably hydralisks by the time he can get 2 archons out to fight the mutas. At least I think, I have played against a lot of similair builds but none exactly like this. | ||
| ||
