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Recentlu I have hit a pvz wall in my play. The zerg will quitley get its 2 nats up while im fast expanding and then proceed to mass hatch hydra. Long story short I need help.
I think there is some sort of timing push I can do against zerg when all the hatches are going up, but whenever i push at him b4 the hydras are up, i have to few zeals to do real damage. Or possibly I'm simply getting out macroed, though i know my mins get out of hand, so do his.
This one i win, but its rather ugly.
Ok on this one i feel useless, It seems to me even when i have the superior army that i can not secure my 4th base. Is there a better way to do this, am i simply doing it wrong? Also I think i had a lack of harassment in this game, but it always feels as if it doesnt matter how much I harass that mass hydras are bound to come out and murder me. Im trying to do things like force him to make lings instead of drones ect but idk.
In this one i was even able to put up my 4th base, and managed to take down 3 hatches. Maybe it was to little to late is my idea, but i dont understand what to do when he just quietly techs to ultras. I try to push out several times but his hydra numbers are just massive. I think bad macro lost me this one, but even when i feel my macro is on, mins are low, i still lose utterly. I just dont get the beating zerg theory, what is my endgame strat as Day 9 would say.
Also note that I am a d,d+ player, so i have bad micro and macro, so if its just that plz tell me how where and why, and it would b greatly appreciated.
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I won't comment on the replays now, but against mass hydra on the D level, I think that storm will usually work out pretty well for you.
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On March 20 2009 04:59 Zozma wrote:
I won't comment on the replays now, but against mass hydra on the D level, I think that storm will usually work out pretty well for you.
If you get the chance to watch them plz due, i would love ur insight
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STORM + Lot +1 and speed.
PUt your gas into templars and your mins into lots.. ez mode
ALso Sair/dt can rape hydras if you r goodx0rs
- also, mid game web is frustrating as fuck for a zerg
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i watched the 31:15 PvZ and i noticed you dont like probes, the most imba unit in the game. Try to keep up ur probe production and spend ur money as it comes in, ya its not as easy as it sounds  , esp ur gas u had like 50min 1000gas at one point fairly early in the game.
about harassment, its pretty difficulty considering you didnt have mapcontrol in the midgame + cross positions + a 22minute robo. He only had his nat+min only so w/o a shuttle your probably not going to hurt his economy or tech much , good job on killing his 4th at top left when it hatched tho.
some basic things that you missed in the early game was adjusting your build order. You scouted his 12 hatch, i think you should have canceled the 2 cannons and put down an earlier nexus (also considering cross positions) i think you could have got away with even a nexus>gateway>2cannons.
good job with the second probe scout sneaking into his main, u were putting up 2 cannons in ur main prior to this (im assuming to defend against mutas) as ur probe scouted the main and saw no spire i think it would be safe to cancel those 2 cannons and get more infrastructure going.
about the 4th base you were trying to take i think this was blunder that cost you the game aside from mechanics . During the small time(@ around 20:XX) you had map control you left your army around the bottom right of middle expansion very out of position. This was your chance to "secure" your 4th , the other attempts were more like trying to sneak the expansion  sadly by the time you got the probe there he had remacro'ed his hydra force and rolled it since ur forces were still sitting around the middle expo, then you proceeded to counter attack and got sandwiched hardcore
overall you did good to keep him on 3 bases the entire game while holding 3 of your own with what units you had. In this game tho macro really killed it for you, during the time around 20:XX when u had a chance to take your 4th u were at like 3k min 2k gas.
some stuff to consider, since you were on equal bases with him i think defending and taking a new base is more profitable than trying to kill him a faster robo would allow you to harass and possibly take the island as ur 4th, TEMPLAR ENERGY UPGRADE! definitely worth getting.
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On March 20 2009 06:39 wingedpts wrote:i watched the 31:15 PvZ and i noticed you dont like probes, the most imba unit in the game. Try to keep up ur probe production and spend ur money as it comes in, ya its not as easy as it sounds , esp ur gas u had like 50min 1000gas at one point fairly early in the game. about harassment, its pretty difficulty considering you didnt have mapcontrol in the midgame + cross positions + a 22minute robo. He only had his nat+min only so w/o a shuttle your probably not going to hurt his economy or tech much , good job on killing his 4th at top left when it hatched tho. some basic things that you missed in the early game was adjusting your build order. You scouted his 12 hatch, i think you should have canceled the 2 cannons and put down an earlier nexus (also considering cross positions) i think you could have got away with even a nexus>gateway>2cannons. good job with the second probe scout sneaking into his main, u were putting up 2 cannons in ur main prior to this (im assuming to defend against mutas) as ur probe scouted the main and saw no spire i think it would be safe to cancel those 2 cannons and get more infrastructure going. about the 4th base you were trying to take i think this was blunder that cost you the game aside from mechanics . During the small time(@ around 20:XX) you had map control you left your army around the bottom right of middle expansion very out of position. This was your chance to "secure" your 4th , the other attempts were more like trying to sneak the expansion sadly by the time you got the probe there he had remacro'ed his hydra force and rolled it since ur forces were still sitting around the middle expo, then you proceeded to counter attack and got sandwiched hardcore overall you did good to keep him on 3 bases the entire game while holding 3 of your own with what units you had. In this game tho macro really killed it for you, during the time around 20:XX when u had a chance to take your 4th u were at like 3k min 2k gas. some stuff to consider, since you were on equal bases with him i think defending and taking a new base is more profitable than trying to kill him a faster robo would allow you to harass and possibly take the island as ur 4th, TEMPLAR ENERGY UPGRADE! definitely worth getting.
Thank you so very much ill try everything uve said
and that temp energy thing is a good call thanks loads
edit: could u watch the medusa game, i do some harassment here but i think i need better targets for my harassment, idk and its probably not enough, but thank you again for such descriptive pointers
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I watched the replays, and wingedpts gave you really good specifics on one of the games, here are a few less specific tips by map:
ANDROMEDA
In general on Andro, you want to be able to end the game off 4 bases - your 2 nats + your island. This means containing Z to his 2 nats at best, his 2 nats and the 3 or 9 base at worst. If Z gets another main/nat pair + island, you probably won't be able to win. 5 gas just produces too much lurk/scourge/ultra for sub A level protoss to deal with if Zerg is spending his gas.
I generally do a Bisu build style opening here so I can scout with my corsair (and decide if I want to make more than one) and so that I can quickly get DTs out on the map watching expansions. Your chances of getting a DT into the Zerg's base for harassment so unless your sair spots an obvious weakness, just play containment. Your whole focus needs to be denying expansions! Zerg with just his nat and min only on this map should never be a mid-late game threat.
After my sair/dt are out, my build generally branches in three ways:
1. He went muta into 5 hatch hydra.
In response to this, I would put 2 cannons by each nexus and make nonstop corsairs with +1 air attack coming, making sure not to lose any. Be sure to aim cannons on scourge if they come with a muta/scourge attack while running corsairs away. It's tricky but you'll learn with practice. Along with this build, I would make 4-6 dts rather than 1-2. Once you have six corsairs, you can roam the map without fear of mutas, and put DTs all over the map. If Z has tried to expand to a 4th base at this point, you can generally run it over with 6 dts and a few speedzeals + sairs coming in to bust overlords. If you bust his 4th the game should be effectively over, because you are safe to take your island as a 4th. Keep your sairs/dts alive as long as possible, and if you have trouble macroing while doing that, just make 8 gates and go nonstop zeal/templar.
2. He went fast lurker with a "hidden" 4th. You can do the same as above with sair/dt, but I prefer doing nonstop sairs, get a few temps with storm researching, and a quick robo - it'll be tight on your gas but you can make it work. Then go out and drive him nuts with storm drops and dt drops. Z who tries to cover a 4 base build with a lurker rush generally won't have the numbers to completely nullify your harass, and the worst case scenario is you screw his mining up enough with drops that his macro is slowed, and you can easily secure a 4th on your island. Best case scenario is you kill a lot of drones and possibly some tech, in which case you should just be able to walk over his 4th with a goon/obs/temp rush.
3. He went directly into a mass hydra build. If you track down TSL VODs, Nony used a build that's great vs this - basically corsair for scout, 2 gate temps with storm + energy, into a 6 gate ranged goon pump, and you go out with about 2 groups of units and beat Z down. If you storm correctly and avoid an all out flank, Z will be forced to drop everything to defend all his bases, and you will have the opportunity to take a 4th and maybe a 5th while adding gates. Add in drop harassment as soon as possible.
MEDUSA
I don't really care what Z does on this map because I always get fast storm and lots of corsairs. 3 hatch muta into 5+ hydra is standard here like on most maps and you can counter it any number of ways... varying by how quickly he goes for a 4th and how quickly he gets lurkers. The key thing to watch is that Z doesn't lurker bust your temple at the back. I usually throw up 3 cannons there once I take my min only, which is generally as soon as I've dealt with Z's mutas
My favorite build on this map is mass sair -> drop. Drops are amazingly good on Medusa and if you're good with DTs you can lay a lot of pressure on Z. Sometimes I'll even come with a 6 dt / 2 ht drop right in the main, with my sairs, and just kill all their tech + storm whatever drones I can. Spire -> evolution chambers -> pool should be your priority. Spire because it's expensive, slow building, and Z relies heavily on scourge to defend drops and support lurks - evo chambers because Z armies suck if they fall behind on ups - pool because zerglings are the most essential mid-late game unit for Z. Even if Z brings his entire army into his main, you will kill at least 3-4 buildings with 4-6 dt. Z will almost surely send drones to his min only , so JUST unload the dt first. Then fly over and storm his transferring drones with the temps he doesn't know you have yet. If you can kill 20 drones and all his tech, it's GG, and you'd be shocked how often you can do this.
Assuming you don't do all that sick raping, Medusa is still a great map for PvZ because you can somewhat easily take the map as long as you play defensively with lots of storms, lots of cannons, and good scouting to see drops.
The #1 thing I cannot stress enough is to avoid being lurker contained at all costs. If they lurk contain you on medusa it can be exceedingly difficult to escape because of the way the chokes are build. They open out into a huge attack surface and unless you have really strong goon/temp lurk sniping, you absolutely can't get out, period. Even with great micro it is still hard, because Z will get 4 gas and mass scourge. A drop oriented build deals with this fairly well assuming you start early and stay on it, because it keeps the Z army away from lurks - and ranged goons + obs will run lurks over with ease if there aren't support units around.
In all cases of PvZ on any map you're going to need to storm well and make sure you have lots of storm. A common problem is to fight a huge battle, come out slightly ahead, then lose whatever you have lest to Z reinforcements. In general if you win a huge battle but you don't have a game ending force of leftovers, JUST GO HOME!!! Use the small advantage you've gained to secure a new base and harass a thinly spread opponent. A sure way to make sure you have plenty of storms is to keep your gas at 0. The only way you can do that is to make temps and goons. You want lots of temps and when you go out to attack, you want temps building in your gateways so after the battle, you have storms ready to roll, and a new army build.
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In general, when is it advantageous to upgrade +1 air attack?
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On March 20 2009 13:01 Midnight)Sun wrote:
In general, when is it advantageous to upgrade +1 air attack?
It's just inexpensive and increases sair damage by 20%. Kills muta in a few less shots. When you think how fast they fire and how many times they have to fire to kill something, it adds up. It also boosts the splash damage, which is even bigger.
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On March 20 2009 14:51 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2009 13:01 Midnight)Sun wrote:
In general, when is it advantageous to upgrade +1 air attack? It's just inexpensive and increases sair damage by 20%. Kills muta in a few less shots. When you think how fast they fire and how many times they have to fire to kill something, it adds up. It also boosts the splash damage, which is even bigger.
Should you ever upgarde to +2 air atack
And should u consider land upgardes a when possible deal, or is there specific food counts or other triggers that should start them
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here is your problem if you want it bluntly
its 12:05 into the game and your food count is at 91 when you've alone lost 2 zealots which means your food count 12 mins into the game if you had never lost any units would be at 95.
you're on 3 bases with 3 gateways adding a 4th like your unit composition is fine for defeating hydras. speed zealots and storm are the best counter to hydras short of a reaver added in the mix but your macro is gutter. the zerg race is more forgiving in this respect because if your macro slacks you can still come back and build 3 units at once. you can't do this as protoss or terran and you can't be at 91 food 12 mins into the game and you can't have poor probe saturation at your main and you can't only have 1 gateway per nexus. if you wanna do starcraft math its 3 1/2 gates per nexus although i'm not really sure about that since i don't play protoss but it sounds about right.
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Well. Even without watching the rep I will tell you this
+1/+2 Speedlots will absolutly rape hydras. Just get some flank-age going on, and hydras melt
Early-Mid game ht/storms absoutly critical vs the 2/3 hatch hydra break
clone storms and storm to your hearts content
Remember, dont storm individual hydras and dont storm above your zealots/goons
Storm the flank/back of the hydras and DONT GET YOUR SHIT SNIPED
Mid-Late Game Reaver/Ht will absoultly MELT hydras. But then again..If your opponent is still on hydras late game..You should have won already..-.-
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On March 21 2009 00:28 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
Well. Even without watching the rep I will tell you this
+1/+2 Speedlots will absolutly rape hydras. Just get some flank-age going on, and hydras melt
Early-Mid game ht/storms absoutly critical vs the 2/3 hatch hydra break
clone storms and storm to your hearts content
Remember, dont storm individual hydras and dont storm above your zealots/goons
Storm the flank/back of the hydras and DONT GET YOUR SHIT SNIPED
Mid-Late Game Reaver/Ht will absoultly MELT hydras. But then again..If your opponent is still on hydras late game..You should have won already..-.-
Incorrect.
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On March 20 2009 22:58 niin wrote:
here is your problem if you want it bluntly
its 12:05 into the game and your food count is at 91 when you've alone lost 2 zealots which means your food count 12 mins into the game if you had never lost any units would be at 95.
you're on 3 bases with 3 gateways adding a 4th like your unit composition is fine for defeating hydras. speed zealots and storm are the best counter to hydras short of a reaver added in the mix but your macro is gutter. the zerg race is more forgiving in this respect because if your macro slacks you can still come back and build 3 units at once. you can't do this as protoss or terran and you can't be at 91 food 12 mins into the game and you can't have poor probe saturation at your main and you can't only have 1 gateway per nexus. if you wanna do starcraft math its 3 1/2 gates per nexus although i'm not really sure about that since i don't play protoss but it sounds about right.
so its a sheer macro problem, not a lack of harassment or map control?
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i'm just going to say, I don't know if this is of any use, but hydras are generally only a midgame unit. once a lot of H templars get out on the field, usually zerg will have to make their transition into ultra/ling, because mass storms devastate hydras, unless they've got great storm dodging.
Reavers work, but thats something that requires a lot more effort and cost to implement.
All IMO.
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I don't want to watch the reps and give detailed comments. But one small thing that might help you a lot vs mass hydras.. get armor/shields instead of weapons. Weapons are better vs the usual lurk builds, but if he is going all ling/hydra especially hydra shields/armor rapes them, if you think about the fact that ranged hydras are getting so many more shots off vs your mostly zealot army.
Against the build you described I would try a 3 gate no exp power build and then move out with +1 shields and just straight up goon/zealot. You would be amazed at how well this crushes pure hydra.
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On March 21 2009 12:16 fast ball player wrote:
I don't want to watch the reps and give detailed comments. But one small thing that might help you a lot vs mass hydras.. get armor/shields instead of weapons. Weapons are better vs the usual lurk builds, but if he is going all ling/hydra especially hydra shields/armor rapes them, if you think about the fact that ranged hydras are getting so many more shots off vs your mostly zealot army.
Against the build you described I would try a 3 gate no exp power build and then move out with +1 shields and just straight up goon/zealot. You would be amazed at how well this crushes pure hydra.
Don't ever get shields until you have all your ground weapons/armor. Getting +1 armor first is good vs hydras, just make sure you get a 2nd forge down for weapons after you have obs.
As for the question about +2 air, only get it if you're going for an air army. If you have a commanding lead and zerg is being a turtle - say you've got 4 gas on a maxed army and can't attack - 8 sairs with dweb + 4 carriers is a great base cracker, especially with attack ups. The key thing is to maintain a big enough ground army to hold down counters and to actually kill the zerg once you crack his turtle with your air. This is a very rare situation in my experience but it does come up.
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Love storms and hydras will hate you =)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/9091.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/9092.jpg)
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