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On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc.
Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)?
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On February 06 2009 13:27 Resonance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc. Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)?
Yea, the +1 missile is good for the better half of the game. until/if they get 3 armor on infantry.
So like mid game when u are taking 3rd/4th base and they send a little raid party , you can have 2-3 lurkers on the ramp without them easily taking it out for example (when they have armor).
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Does anyone else get +1 air armor for tvp late game? Usually at 3-2 I feel unsatisfied if my first armory lays there idle so I get + 1 to try to keep my vessals alive just a little bit longer....is this foolish of me and a waste of gas? because usually at this point my macro isn't perfect and I have extra resources anyways, but should I save that money for 1 extra fully upgraded tank if we mine out the map?
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I think the final +1 ground armour would be much more useful...
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Well obviously lol. I do have two armories. With ground armor being upgraded to 3 as soon as possible. So my question was is it worth it to start +1 air armor on idle armory because you cannot get +4 weapons.
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On February 06 2009 13:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 13:27 Resonance wrote:On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc. Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)? Yea, the +1 missile is good for the better half of the game. until/if they get 3 armor on infantry. So like mid game when u are taking 3rd/4th base and they send a little raid party , you can have 2-3 lurkers on the ramp without them easily taking it out for example (when they have armor).
Gotcha, will do. Looks like early +1 missile is viable then, thanks.
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On February 06 2009 17:37 Resonance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 13:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 06 2009 13:27 Resonance wrote:On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc. Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)? Yea, the +1 missile is good for the better half of the game. until/if they get 3 armor on infantry. So like mid game when u are taking 3rd/4th base and they send a little raid party , you can have 2-3 lurkers on the ramp without them easily taking it out for example (when they have armor). Gotcha, will do. Looks like early +1 missile is viable then, thanks.
Say then send 8 marines and 2 medics
that's 48 damage or 56 damage (depending if +1 attack)
lurker has 125hp +1 armor inherent. so that makes it 40 or 48 damage. Most likely you won't have +1 armor before they have +1 attack so i'm not gonna calculate that, but even if you do it's probably still the same amount of DPS and you're lurker is gonna get off the same 2-3 shots average before it dies.
Either way, the same amount of volley of shots will kill a lurker with or without armor on the lurkers. But marines shoot much faster than lurkers, the average amount of shots a lurker gets off is like 2, so it's pretty good imo. The armor upgrade is almost equally effective at changing the volley from 2 to 3 from the marine group but like I said they shoot faster. and since lurker have more range, hopefully they snag a few marines first.
Obviously this changes for the amount of marines they have but you see what I mean.
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On February 04 2009 20:49 Synneby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 20:20 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
Why is this thread even allowed to live..
a +1 in PvZ allows zealots to actually kill a zergling with only 2 hits rather than 3.... Why are you allowed to live when you post like that? Upgrades arent just about 2 hitting lings. First of, there is more MUs then PvZ. 8 i belive. And second, he is talking about upgrades in general and not about "smart upgrade trix". So, yeah, upgrades are really important, IF you are going into the late game. So there are no easy answers. Sometimes its awesome to build an extra forge and upgrade shield, sometime it isn't. You have to analyse the situation make decisions. to summarise some guidelines: (for P mostly) +1 weapon is crucial 2 get early in PvZ You build you second forge around the time you get your third in PvZ ofc you upgrade shield in PvT. But only when you are like 20 min into the game and only if you have an massive eco and army. ofc you upgrade shield PvZ. It helps your archons AND cannons! But armour and weapon first. And only a 3 forge if your have and really good eco. same for PvP. Why not if you have the minerals? Upgrade only weapon in TvT Get carpece before melee Get range upgrade first if you play against metal Upgrade your muttas if you play against metal Upgrade in ZvZ if you can get away with it etc etc
Upgrade your muta if u play against metal?? so ur suggesting we make mutas vs goliaths?? lol
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EPT
