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How important are upgrades? Wep, armour, shield?
Do they differ depending on the matchup?
Watching some replays from tl.net I noticed one TvP where the Protoss was engaged in a macro battle, had gotten 3/3 wep/armour but no shield upgrades. He had like thousands in the bank, had lost his forges but didn't rebuild them and upgrade his shields despite fighting a macro war which eventually if I recall correctly was more or less being decided by mine out.
Fnatic.Never vs Defeat.Nba on Bluestorm
http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1305
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Upgrades are really useful in all match ups, they make a big difference in large scale battles.
Alot of the time tosses wont go beyond one shield because of gas constraints, and sometimes they wont get them all together because they're stupid. Shield is very important in pvp/pvz cause archons.
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Shield is kind of useless in PvT because everything the T has does so much damage anyways <_<
Armor is pretty much useless in TvT as well
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There are very specific important upgrades, the most obvious being +1 zeals killing +0 carapace zerglings in two hits. Another example is getting +armor on marines vs lurkers to force an extra shot for the kill.
Besides those kinds of things the importance of armor upgrades can easily be determined by what units make up the biggest part of your opponents army.
If they are massing zerglings - armor upgrades are VERY important, vs seiged tanks, armor upgrades are almost useless.
The more times their units attack yours, the more armor will do.
Remember also that armor is very important vs mutalisks because their attack bounce thus giving each armor upgrade up to triple the effectiveness.
Other units armor is important against is corsairs and carriers because the damage is small, fast and hits a lot of times. There are others but I'll let you figure it out..
I don't know all of the ins and outs of why plasma is skipped so often, hopefully someone can make a detailed post about that.
I know you are partially paying for the fact that they affect buildings and thus the rate of return on your units is much lower.
I think I have even read somewhere that they affect shield regeneration but I don't know if that is correct.
Attack upgrades are more straightforward unless someone wants to correct me...
Some upgrades are more important than others..
EG +1 marines do 6+1 which is a MUCH larger increase than for example seiged tanks which are 70+5
A safe bet is to copy pro's habits, but you can always do research and math to see what you think is best so that you can feel confident in your decisions.
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Truth be told if you consider that blizzard balanced the rate of return on upgrades based upon the games they played in their alpha testing, and you imagine how fucking terrible their macro was..
You can extrapolate with some certainty that always getting upgrades quickly is correct.
If I was going to ask an all knowing being a question about upgrades I think I would ask when I should not either double upgrade or do Flash style 2-1 timings because I think when you should NOT do this would be a much shorter list than when you should.
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As far as I know, shield upgrades affect only the regeneration rate of the shields and shields take full damage, hence lowering their effectiveness by a huge margin. I could be completely wrong tho, this is just something I've heard.
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On February 04 2009 16:17 rkarhu wrote:
As far as I know, shield upgrades affect only the regeneration rate of the shields and shields take full damage, hence lowering their effectiveness by a huge margin. I could be completely wrong tho, this is just something I've heard.
Yeah like I said I've heard this also somewhere.. anyone confirm?
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On February 04 2009 16:19 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 16:17 rkarhu wrote:
As far as I know, shield upgrades affect only the regeneration rate of the shields and shields take full damage, hence lowering their effectiveness by a huge margin. I could be completely wrong tho, this is just something I've heard. Yeah like I said I've heard this also somewhere.. anyone confirm?
It's incorrect. Shield upgrades basically add +1 armour affecting the shields on both units and buildings, having nothing to do with regeneration.
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shields take full damage in regards to damage type not upgrades
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its only upgrade regeneration. i heard this from somewhere too. i dont think it give you +1 armor. doubt it.
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On February 04 2009 16:17 rkarhu wrote:
As far as I know, shield upgrades affect only the regeneration rate of the shields and shields take full damage, hence lowering their effectiveness by a huge margin. I could be completely wrong tho, this is just something I've heard.
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect.
From all my past UMS days (think D2 UMS), I am almost certain that each shield upgrade provides +1 armour for all damage taken by the shield.
I don't think it has anything to do with regeneration, that seems like a myth to me (just like hive generates larvae faster).
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Taken from Starcraft Wiki (don't know how reliable it is):
Shield points have a separate "armor" rating from regular hit points. The base "armor" is 0 and may be upgraded. This applies to both units and buildings.
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Shield upgrades work in the very same way armor upgrades work for hp, but since shield regenerates, each point of shield regenerated in combat adds 1 + the number of shield upgrades to your effective hp, i.e. if a unit has max shields and regenerates 2 points of shield in between hits, it will need 8 more damage before dying.
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Just about all zerg upgrades are very powerful in all MUs. It's rare to see missile attack upgraded in ZvT, but if you are producing lurkers into the late game, its crucial. The difference between marines dying in 2 hits vs 3 hits is huge. That upgrade can mean most of his marines either die in the first volley of lurker shots or most of them survive. Splash damage and the lurker's long cooldown make this really important.
Melee upgrades in ZvP or ZvT are just as important in the long term. Especially in ZvT where dual ebay is the standard. If your lings are only doing 2 or 3 damage, they are basically useless vs m&m. This is a good example for why, especially in ZvT, you need to choose between hydra/lurk and ultra/ling. Upgrades are just as important in ZvP, but you don't need to pick what to upgrade as carefully, just upgrade everything. :D
Oh and i agree with everyone else: shield upgrades have nothing to do with regeneration, they just reduce shield damage taken by 1.
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On February 04 2009 18:00 LxRogue wrote:
Just about all zerg upgrades are very powerful in all MUs. It's rare to see missile attack upgraded in ZvT, but if you are producing lurkers into the late game, its crucial. The difference between marines dying in 2 hits vs 3 hits is huge. That upgrade can mean most of his marines either die in the first volley of lurker shots or most of them survive. Splash damage and the lurker's long cooldown make this really important.
Melee upgrades in ZvP or ZvT are just as important in the long term. Especially in ZvT where dual ebay is the standard. If your lings are only doing 2 or 3 damage, they are basically useless vs m&m. This is a good example for why, especially in ZvT, you need to choose between hydra/lurk and ultra/ling. Upgrades are just as important in ZvP, but you don't need to pick what to upgrade as carefully, just upgrade everything. :D
Oh and i agree with everyone else: shield upgrades have nothing to do with regeneration, they just reduce shield damage taken by 1.
I think the prefered method of overcoming terrans is to save the gas on lurkers and missile attack upgrades. Sticking to melee and carpace upgrades keeps the zerglings cost efficient, and allows you to save gas if your defiler and scourge usage is competent. Then you can proceed to turn the tables by overpowering the terran infantry with your well upgraded ultralisks.
Missile and melee attack upgrades are more suited against metal I believe.
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just tested in single player, 2 dragons (large unit, 80 shields, deals 20 explosive damage at 0/0/0, which is 100% damage to large units)
for upgrades, it goes damage/armor/shields below
0/0/0 - 1 shot - 60/80 shield (20 damage)
0/1/0 - 1 shot - 60/80 shield (20 damage, armor did not affect shield)
0/1/1 - 1 shot - 61/80 shield (19 damage, +1 shield reduced damage by 1)
0/1/2 - 1 shot - 62/80 shield (18 damage, +2 shield reduced damage by 2)
0/1/3 - 1 shot - 63/80 shield (17 damage, +3 shield reduced damage by 3)
just for kicks
3/1/3 - 1 shot - 57/80 shield (23 damage, 3of3 weapons gives goons 26 damage, meaning damage was reduced by 3)
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Why is this thread even allowed to live..
a +1 in PvZ allows zealots to actually kill a zergling with only 2 hits rather than 3....
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Protip: Always play with 2 upgrade buildings.
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+3 attack allows goons to kill the mines in just one hit, not many know that, but it's a very good upgrade
also, +1 armor drone survives 1 hit from a non-upgraded dt, and thus the zerg gets the "we are under attack" msg. not sure about the probe.
+2 archons kill lings (with 0 and 1 armor) in 1 shot iirc. +3 archons kill any ling in 1 shot.
if I remember correctly, there was already a discussion about shields once, and archons benefit from it greatly, also, shields increase the living time of cannons against zerglings a lot.
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On February 04 2009 20:20 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
Why is this thread even allowed to live..
a +1 in PvZ allows zealots to actually kill a zergling with only 2 hits rather than 3....
Why are you allowed to live when you post like that? Upgrades arent just about 2 hitting lings. First of, there is more MUs then PvZ. 8 i belive. And second, he is talking about upgrades in general and not about "smart upgrade trix".
So, yeah, upgrades are really important, IF you are going into the late game. So there are no easy answers. Sometimes its awesome to build an extra forge and upgrade shield, sometime it isn't. You have to analyse the situation make decisions.
to summarise some guidelines: (for P mostly)
+1 weapon is crucial 2 get early in PvZ
You build you second forge around the time you get your third in PvZ
ofc you upgrade shield in PvT. But only when you are like 20 min into the game and only if you have an massive eco and army.
ofc you upgrade shield PvZ. It helps your archons AND cannons! But armour and weapon first. And only a 3 forge if your have and really good eco.
same for PvP. Why not if you have the minerals?
Upgrade only weapon in TvT
Get carpece before melee
Get range upgrade first if you play against metal
Upgrade your muttas if you play against metal
Upgrade in ZvZ if you can get away with it
etc etc
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+2+2 hydras, ZvP is easy.
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Each weapon upgrade increases siege damage by 5
that means that at +3 you get 70+15 = 85 damage, which isn't that much compared to marines gaining a +50% bonus (6+3=9, 3 is 50% of 6 )
I guess why plasma shields upgrades are skipped is because they matter the least, since everything does FULL damage to shields anyway
However I digress, most good players forget to upgrade shields even in lategame when resources are available(in PvT, in PvZ and PvP they're upgraded more often). I think shields SHOULD be upgraded because even if they're down to 0, they quickly regenerate and that 1 extra shield point will prevent 4 damage points actually, and this may be vital in an mined-out map micro struggle (maybe less against Terran, but still ! )
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On February 04 2009 20:46 quirinus wrote:
+3 attack allows goons to kill the mines in just one hit, not many know that, but it's a very good upgrade
not true
goon has explosive damage type (half damage on small units)
even if it has 26 or 29 damage (i don't know if it gets +2 or +3 damage per upgrade), the half of that is 13 or 14.5 so it can't kill a mine with 20 HP...
Where did you hear this info ~~
though zealots can kill a mine with one hit after two upgrades.
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On February 04 2009 22:24 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 20:46 quirinus wrote:
+3 attack allows goons to kill the mines in just one hit, not many know that, but it's a very good upgrade
not true goon has explosive damage type (half damage on small units) even if it has 26 or 29 damage (i don't know if it gets +2 or +3 damage per upgrade), the half of that is 13 or 14.5 so it can't kill a mine with 20 HP... Where did you hear this info ~~ though zealots can kill a mine with one hit after two upgrades.
Dragoons have 2 dmg/up.
The zealots do two hits. So (8+3)+(8+3). They can do one hit damage, if they
get killed while they attack (8+x). Even with 2 wpn upgrade zealots can kill mines.
A 3 level carapace zergling need 3 shots from cannon to die.
35-(20-3)=18
18+1-(20-3)=2
2-(20-3)=dead zergling
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It was Tasteless who said during a commentary fairly recently that + Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players.
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On February 04 2009 23:50 Choros wrote:
Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players.
I don`t think that could be true.
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Shields Upgrades
By far the most useful upgrade for the Protoss, the Plasma Shield upgrade will add to the shield maximum for all units and buildings. Combined with Armor upgrades, you can noticeably increase the lifespan of your units. As such, the Plasma Shield Upgrade should always be researched as early as possible.
That is from starcraft compendium.
I think its bullshit. XD
Edit:
I tested it. It reduces damage by 1 per upgrade i think.
It also works on buildings.
So it might give those few secs for your buildings vs mass ling and stuff.
Also pretty neat for archons.
And goons will take even less damage from vultures too.
Its good vs anything with low damage really.
I'd really advise you to upgrade it in PvZ and maybe pvt if you have the time and resources =P
And in pvp it might give your units that 1 extra hit so its pretty nice.
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uhhh i only really know about the terran ups
tvz: +1 marines will really help vs mutalisks because they have such low health.
tvz: +1 armor, 3 shots to kill marines with lurkers, as opposed to 2. if you stim the meds will heal some of your marines, so some of them can still take 3 shots.
tvt: +2 attack lets you 2 shot tanks in siege mode, as opposed to 3
tvt: armor isnt that important, ill usually get it though at like +2 attack
tvp: a lot of flash style tvp revolves around upgrades and timing your push on 2-1, 3-2, or 3-3. upgrades help terran a lot in this matchup.
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Calgary25980 Posts
PvP: Attack is very important, armor less important, shields are not important.
PvT: P - Attack is very important, armor is pretty important, shields are not important. T - Attack is very important, armor is very important (until 2).
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important. Z - Melee attack is important, armor is crucial, ranged attack is less important (depending on unit composition).
TvT: I have no idea. I'd imagine Attack is very important and armor is not important.
TvZ: T - Attack is crucial, armor is crucial. Z - Melee attack is very important, carapace is crucial, ranged attack is not important.
ZvZ: Flying carapace is important (depend on play style).
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On February 05 2009 01:30 Chill wrote:
PvP: Attack is very important, armor less important, shields are not important.
PvT: P - Attack is very important, armor is pretty important, shields are not important. T - Attack is very important, armor is very important (until 2).
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important. Z - Melee attack is important, armor is crucial, ranged attack is less important (depending on unit composition).
TvT: I have no idea. I'd imagine Attack is very important and armor is not important.
TvZ: T - Attack is crucial, armor is crucial. Z - Melee attack is very important, carapace is crucial, ranged attack is not important.
ZvZ: Flying carapace is important (depend on play style).
in TvT Armor can be important but you can put it all into attack and be fine i guess. Tanks have 85 damage so armor doesnt really matter at all when they attack
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 05 2009 01:30 Chill wrote:
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important.
I don't think shields are less important at all. The majority of damage that a zerg army deals comes from zerglings. Having 3 shield will reduce the damage of a fully upgraded crackling by 37.5%. I think it's pretty significant.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 05 2009 01:37 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 01:30 Chill wrote:
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important. I don't think shields are less important at all. The majority of damage that a zerg army deals comes from zerglings. Having 3 shield will reduce the damage of a fully upgraded crackling by 37.5%. I think it's pretty significant.
Shields take full damage from everything, meaning Hydralisks deal 100% to Zealots' shields and 50% to armor. You're right, late game shields are nice, but much less important than the other upgrades.
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For PvZ I think if you see the game being dragged out at least 15 minutes past the late game, it becomes beneficial to upgrade shield. Shield for archons makes lings not as powerful vs archon, and increases the strength of photon cannons which are just some benefits. If you think PvZ its usually the protoss taking on swarms of units, allowing them to live longer is very beneficial, and think about reavers in a PvZ composition army, they have a lot of shield but incur a lot of damage, even if you win the fight in PvZ. The shield recovery helps them to stay alive longer.
I used Reavers as a main example considering after a fights over and a protoss loses the bulk of their army, the remaining units are usually spellcasters/reavers for some reason. At least in my games :D and its obviously beneficial to have to spend less money replenishing your gas heavy spellcasters.
Most of that was obvious I think :D Just my thoughts as a Zerg adn thinking of what makes lategame ZvP hard for me, when I am scrambling around with my ragtag groups of ultra/ling. I find it annoying when he also has very high upgrades.
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I don't understand why so many saying shield upgrade sucks? It's not as good as the normal armor upgrade but it's not bad. If the game goes to late game with overminerals, be sure to upgrade it, maybe even earlier, I would say 1 less dragoon or something is worth starting your upgrade a bit earlier.
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United States42566 Posts
You literally need to be 200/200 to justify shields in non PvZ. Yes, it's a difference. About 4% less damage from goons, 10% less from zealots, 1% less from reavers, 0% less from storms, 2.5% less from archons. But those numbers aren't great. You won't notice the lack of them.
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On February 05 2009 01:30 Chill wrote:
PvP: Attack is very important, armor less important, shields are not important.
PvT: P - Attack is very important, armor is pretty important, shields are not important. T - Attack is very important, armor is very important (until 2).
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important. Z - Melee attack is important, armor is crucial, ranged attack is less important (depending on unit composition).
TvT: I have no idea. I'd imagine Attack is very important and armor is not important.
TvZ: T - Attack is crucial, armor is crucial. Z - Melee attack is very important, carapace is crucial, ranged attack is not important.
ZvZ: Flying carapace is important (depend on play style).
Why is ranged attack for ZvT not that important (since it takes out marines in 2 hits)? I know carapace is a lot more important, as well as melee, but 2 hits instead of 3 is a pretty big deal no? I'v been thinking about this a fair bit lately, and it is making me want to just go 3 evo all upgrades.
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On February 05 2009 05:49 Resonance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 01:30 Chill wrote:
PvP: Attack is very important, armor less important, shields are not important.
PvT: P - Attack is very important, armor is pretty important, shields are not important. T - Attack is very important, armor is very important (until 2).
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important. Z - Melee attack is important, armor is crucial, ranged attack is less important (depending on unit composition).
TvT: I have no idea. I'd imagine Attack is very important and armor is not important.
TvZ: T - Attack is crucial, armor is crucial. Z - Melee attack is very important, carapace is crucial, ranged attack is not important.
ZvZ: Flying carapace is important (depend on play style). Why is ranged attack for ZvT not that important (since it takes out marines in 2 hits)? I know carapace is a lot more important, as well as melee, but 2 hits instead of 3 is a pretty big deal no? I'v been thinking about this a fair bit lately, and it is making me want to just go 3 evo all upgrades.
Marines stim anyway, and that often negates the 3-hit kill thing, and unless you're planning on going hydralurk the gas is better spent on getting ultralisks.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 04 2009 23:50 Choros wrote:
It was Tasteless who said during a commentary fairly recently that + Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players.
Given that shields recharge based on points and not percentages, I can't fathom how this could be true.
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On February 05 2009 06:07 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 05:49 Resonance wrote:On February 05 2009 01:30 Chill wrote:
PvP: Attack is very important, armor less important, shields are not important.
PvT: P - Attack is very important, armor is pretty important, shields are not important. T - Attack is very important, armor is very important (until 2).
PvZ: P - Attack is crucial, armor is very important, shields are less important. Z - Melee attack is important, armor is crucial, ranged attack is less important (depending on unit composition).
TvT: I have no idea. I'd imagine Attack is very important and armor is not important.
TvZ: T - Attack is crucial, armor is crucial. Z - Melee attack is very important, carapace is crucial, ranged attack is not important.
ZvZ: Flying carapace is important (depend on play style). Why is ranged attack for ZvT not that important (since it takes out marines in 2 hits)? I know carapace is a lot more important, as well as melee, but 2 hits instead of 3 is a pretty big deal no? I'v been thinking about this a fair bit lately, and it is making me want to just go 3 evo all upgrades. Marines stim anyway, and that often negates the 3-hit kill thing, and unless you're planning on going hydralurk the gas is better spent on getting ultralisks.
Heard of medics? They heal damn fast.
On February 05 2009 04:58 Kwark wrote:
You literally need to be 200/200 to justify shields in non PvZ. Yes, it's a difference. About 4% less damage from goons, 10% less from zealots, 1% less from reavers, 0% less from storms, 2.5% less from archons. But those numbers aren't great. You won't notice the lack of them.
True, it's only a little useful in PvZ, not that good in PvP and PvT, what ????
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Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway.
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On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway.
If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead.
Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks.
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On February 05 2009 06:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 23:50 Choros wrote:
It was Tasteless who said during a commentary fairly recently that + Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players. Given that shields recharge based on points and not percentages, I can't fathom how this could be true.
Someone should put up a big banner dispelling this myth.
Protoss shield upgrades DO NOT affect shield regeneration rate. They just add +1 shield armor just like HP armor upgrades add to HP armor.
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On February 04 2009 20:49 Synneby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 20:20 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
Why is this thread even allowed to live..
a +1 in PvZ allows zealots to actually kill a zergling with only 2 hits rather than 3.... Why are you allowed to live when you post like that? Upgrades arent just about 2 hitting lings. First of, there is more MUs then PvZ. 8 i belive. And second, he is talking about upgrades in general and not about "smart upgrade trix". So, yeah, upgrades are really important, IF you are going into the late game. So there are no easy answers. Sometimes its awesome to build an extra forge and upgrade shield, sometime it isn't. You have to analyse the situation make decisions. to summarise some guidelines: (for P mostly) +1 weapon is crucial 2 get early in PvZ You build you second forge around the time you get your third in PvZ ofc you upgrade shield in PvT. But only when you are like 20 min into the game and only if you have an massive eco and army. ofc you upgrade shield PvZ. It helps your archons AND cannons! But armour and weapon first. And only a 3 forge if your have and really good eco. same for PvP. Why not if you have the minerals? Upgrade only weapon in TvT Get carpece before melee Get range upgrade first if you play against metal Upgrade your muttas if you play against metal Upgrade in ZvZ if you can get away with it etc etc
There are 6 matchups
1) PvP
2) PvZ ZvP
3) PvT TvP
4) ZvT TvZ
5) TvT
6) ZvZ
Now if we're talking about both sides than there are 9. However that is not 9 matchups that is 6 matchups 3 of which have 2 sides.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I can't say why ranged attack isn't useful. I mean, theoretically if you're using Lurkers for a significant amount of time in the midgame, you should get it, but emperically I can tell you it's not that important. 
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What about ship weapons/armor? I see a lot of people upgrading air attack in PvZ for corsairs (and potentially carriers later). If you're going reaver/sair, is it worth it to upgrade air all the way to +3? Is it worth it to up armor? I don't know if anyone ever ups Air for Terran though, considering how rare wraiths, valks, and bcs are used.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Yes, +3 for Corsairs.
Yes, + Armor for ReaverSair (+Weapons is better if you aren't going to stay Reaver all game)
I agree that Terran air weapons are rare except in TvT, in which case you should max them.
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+1 obs armor for PvT
I'm kidding ofc, but I saw a game where someone did that, pretty awesome.
TvP: Very important. A zealot does 16 damage, 8 per w/e its called(like the goli does 20 dmg and each missle it shoots does 10 dmg and it shoots 2 at a time). Tanks already have +1 and the zealot dmg is divided into to so the attack is -1 twice. I don't feel like giving a good example() but i'm sure you could figure out how that is very important.
TvZ: Important, enough said. Get them asap. 3/3 rines pwn
TvT: I fyou get a fast +1 your siege tanks 2 hit tanks I think, not sure cuz they have that 1 armor already. Might be +2, but yeah there important to get.
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On February 05 2009 06:57 d(O.o)a wrote:
There are 6 matchups
1) PvP
2) PvZ ZvP
3) PvT TvP
4) ZvT TvZ
5) TvT
6) ZvZ
Now if we're talking about both sides than there are 9. However that is not 9 matchups that is 6 matchups 3 of which have 2 sides.
and PvZ + 8 other is?
And I disagree, there is 9 match ups. Correct me if Im wrong, but the fact still stands, you upgrade differently in PvZ and ZvP. For one, you dont have the same upgrades. lol
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is awesome32274 Posts
On February 05 2009 08:08 SCC-AlwaysGG wrote:+1 obs armor for PvT I'm kidding ofc, but I saw a game where someone did that, pretty awesome. TvP: Very important. A zealot does 16 damage, 8 per w/e its called(like the goli does 20 dmg and each missle it shoots does 10 dmg and it shoots 2 at a time). Tanks already have +1 and the zealot dmg is divided into to so the attack is -1 twice. I don't feel like giving a good example( ) but i'm sure you could figure out how that is very important. TvZ: Important, enough said. Get them asap. 3/3 rines pwn TvT: I fyou get a fast +1 your siege tanks 2 hit tanks I think, not sure cuz they have that 1 armor already. Might be +2, but yeah there important to get.
Nope, you need +2 attack on siege tanks so they kill in 2 hits instead of 3.
80 (+2) x 2 = 160 > 150 (tank armor)
75 (+1) x 2 = 150 < 150 (tank armor)
This of course doesn't take into account splash from other tanks being hit, scv repairing.
Anyway, +2 is crucial in big tank cleanings. + attack also helps goliaths against any sort of anti air in all mus.
Weird that no one mentioned about mech ups in TvZ, nowadays it's so popular.
Both attack and defence are very important. I think attack is always better than armor (means it should be upgraded first.
Also if you go old school reaver 3 gate push in PvZ (which was used quite a lot in Othello iirc) armor is more important than damage.
You need your goons to stay alive as long as you can so reavers deal damage. You don't benefit much from attack.
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On February 05 2009 08:15 Synneby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 06:57 d(O.o)a wrote:
There are 6 matchups
1) PvP
2) PvZ ZvP
3) PvT TvP
4) ZvT TvZ
5) TvT
6) ZvZ
Now if we're talking about both sides than there are 9. However that is not 9 matchups that is 6 matchups 3 of which have 2 sides. and PvZ + 8 other is? And I disagree, there is 9 match ups. Correct me if Im wrong, but the fact still stands, you upgrade differently in PvZ and ZvP. For one, you dont have the same upgrades. lol
I agree, there are nine matchups, it's not like you play TvZ the same as you play ZvT. It sounds wierd but still, it's how I see it.
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I kind of got an understanding of this when I played defense games.
Think of your total damage output from your army. lets say you have 10 goons.
10 x 20 = 200
Now, your damage output is 200, and now the comes a choice, would my damage output be greater if I spent money on another unit, or on an upgrade? well, lets do the math.
11 x 20 = 220 OR 10 x 22 = 220. In this case, it would not matter which choice you invested in, except that another dragoon would be more cost efficient.
Lets do another example with marines.
Lets say you have 10 again.
10 x 6 = 60
Now, upgrade or unit.
10 x 7 = 70 OR 11 x 6 = 66. In this case, the upgrade would be the better choice. However, you must always take into account the prices and time involved. You could probably spit out another 10 marines before the upgrade finishes without spending any gas.
Hope this helps, I was kind of in a hurry.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 05 2009 11:04 noxing wrote:
I kind of got an understanding of this when I played defense games.
Think of your total damage output from your army. lets say you have 10 goons.
10 x 20 = 200
Now, your damage output is 200, and now the comes a choice, would my damage output be greater if I spent money on another unit, or on an upgrade? well, lets do the math.
11 x 20 = 220 OR 10 x 22 = 220. In this case, it would not matter which choice you invested in, except that another dragoon would be more cost efficient.
Lets do another example with marines.
Lets say you have 10 again.
10 x 6 = 60
Now, upgrade or unit.
10 x 7 = 70 OR 11 x 6 = 66. In this case, the upgrade would be the better choice. However, you must always take into account the prices and time involved. You could probably spit out another 10 marines before the upgrade finishes without spending any gas.
Hope this helps, I was kind of in a hurry.
This is simple when playing with instant upgrades, but good luck getting any meaningful analysis after balancing battles, expansions, production potential, and upgrade timings.
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United States3824 Posts
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?"
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On February 05 2009 12:20 cgrinker wrote:
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?"
scouts aren't really that important, and they're there.
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Weapon's and armour is very important in all match up's I'd say, unless you're going for some sort of early han bang. I think it's crucial to have 2 forges when you get your nat up, or by the time you get your third in PvT. I never really get shields unless it's a hardcore macro game, like every base is taken and it's just a war of attrition and you got lots of money in the bank.
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On February 04 2009 23:50 Choros wrote:
It was Tasteless who said during a commentary fairly recently that + Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players.
Tasteless said that the shield upgrade made the recovery time quicker, which is wrong. It works like any other armor ugprade, except that shields take full damage from any type of attack and shields recover.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 05 2009 18:17 virLudens wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 12:20 cgrinker wrote:
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?" scouts aren't really that important, and they're there.
Scouts are very important when you want to be BM.
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On February 05 2009 12:20 cgrinker wrote:
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?"
Is everything in a game important? Even Blizzard is only human.
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On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks.
Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness.
Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits.
I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though.
PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Right, it addresses standard play.
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On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc.
Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)?
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On February 06 2009 13:27 Resonance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc. Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)?
Yea, the +1 missile is good for the better half of the game. until/if they get 3 armor on infantry.
So like mid game when u are taking 3rd/4th base and they send a little raid party , you can have 2-3 lurkers on the ramp without them easily taking it out for example (when they have armor).
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Does anyone else get +1 air armor for tvp late game? Usually at 3-2 I feel unsatisfied if my first armory lays there idle so I get + 1 to try to keep my vessals alive just a little bit longer....is this foolish of me and a waste of gas? because usually at this point my macro isn't perfect and I have extra resources anyways, but should I save that money for 1 extra fully upgraded tank if we mine out the map?
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I think the final +1 ground armour would be much more useful...
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Well obviously lol. I do have two armories. With ground armor being upgraded to 3 as soon as possible. So my question was is it worth it to start +1 air armor on idle armory because you cannot get +4 weapons.
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On February 06 2009 13:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 13:27 Resonance wrote:On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc. Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)? Yea, the +1 missile is good for the better half of the game. until/if they get 3 armor on infantry. So like mid game when u are taking 3rd/4th base and they send a little raid party , you can have 2-3 lurkers on the ramp without them easily taking it out for example (when they have armor).
Gotcha, will do. Looks like early +1 missile is viable then, thanks.
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On February 06 2009 17:37 Resonance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 13:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 06 2009 13:27 Resonance wrote:On February 05 2009 23:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks. Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness. Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits. I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though. PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc. Yeah I have been thinking about that quite a bit lately, getting early +1 range. Would help a lot for mid-game ZvT considering the lurkers are the ones who do the damage, and the lings just take it. The sweet thing about it is that lurkers will kill marines in two hits, even when marines have +2 armor, so the marines need +3 armor, and by that time usually zerg has ultras anyway. I know I said this before, but only 1 person answered me, would it possibly be worth it to get 3 evos of upgrades? Perhaps maybe just +1 missile first before +1melee (I normally get 2 evos after the hydra den)? Yea, the +1 missile is good for the better half of the game. until/if they get 3 armor on infantry. So like mid game when u are taking 3rd/4th base and they send a little raid party , you can have 2-3 lurkers on the ramp without them easily taking it out for example (when they have armor). Gotcha, will do. Looks like early +1 missile is viable then, thanks.
Say then send 8 marines and 2 medics
that's 48 damage or 56 damage (depending if +1 attack)
lurker has 125hp +1 armor inherent. so that makes it 40 or 48 damage. Most likely you won't have +1 armor before they have +1 attack so i'm not gonna calculate that, but even if you do it's probably still the same amount of DPS and you're lurker is gonna get off the same 2-3 shots average before it dies.
Either way, the same amount of volley of shots will kill a lurker with or without armor on the lurkers. But marines shoot much faster than lurkers, the average amount of shots a lurker gets off is like 2, so it's pretty good imo. The armor upgrade is almost equally effective at changing the volley from 2 to 3 from the marine group but like I said they shoot faster. and since lurker have more range, hopefully they snag a few marines first.
Obviously this changes for the amount of marines they have but you see what I mean.
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On February 04 2009 20:49 Synneby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 20:20 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
Why is this thread even allowed to live..
a +1 in PvZ allows zealots to actually kill a zergling with only 2 hits rather than 3.... Why are you allowed to live when you post like that? Upgrades arent just about 2 hitting lings. First of, there is more MUs then PvZ. 8 i belive. And second, he is talking about upgrades in general and not about "smart upgrade trix". So, yeah, upgrades are really important, IF you are going into the late game. So there are no easy answers. Sometimes its awesome to build an extra forge and upgrade shield, sometime it isn't. You have to analyse the situation make decisions. to summarise some guidelines: (for P mostly) +1 weapon is crucial 2 get early in PvZ You build you second forge around the time you get your third in PvZ ofc you upgrade shield in PvT. But only when you are like 20 min into the game and only if you have an massive eco and army. ofc you upgrade shield PvZ. It helps your archons AND cannons! But armour and weapon first. And only a 3 forge if your have and really good eco. same for PvP. Why not if you have the minerals? Upgrade only weapon in TvT Get carpece before melee Get range upgrade first if you play against metal Upgrade your muttas if you play against metal Upgrade in ZvZ if you can get away with it etc etc
Upgrade your muta if u play against metal?? so ur suggesting we make mutas vs goliaths?? lol
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EPT
