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On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway.
If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead.
Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks.
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On February 05 2009 06:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 23:50 Choros wrote:
It was Tasteless who said during a commentary fairly recently that + Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players. Given that shields recharge based on points and not percentages, I can't fathom how this could be true.
Someone should put up a big banner dispelling this myth.
Protoss shield upgrades DO NOT affect shield regeneration rate. They just add +1 shield armor just like HP armor upgrades add to HP armor.
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On February 04 2009 20:49 Synneby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2009 20:20 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
Why is this thread even allowed to live..
a +1 in PvZ allows zealots to actually kill a zergling with only 2 hits rather than 3.... Why are you allowed to live when you post like that? Upgrades arent just about 2 hitting lings. First of, there is more MUs then PvZ. 8 i belive. And second, he is talking about upgrades in general and not about "smart upgrade trix". So, yeah, upgrades are really important, IF you are going into the late game. So there are no easy answers. Sometimes its awesome to build an extra forge and upgrade shield, sometime it isn't. You have to analyse the situation make decisions. to summarise some guidelines: (for P mostly) +1 weapon is crucial 2 get early in PvZ You build you second forge around the time you get your third in PvZ ofc you upgrade shield in PvT. But only when you are like 20 min into the game and only if you have an massive eco and army. ofc you upgrade shield PvZ. It helps your archons AND cannons! But armour and weapon first. And only a 3 forge if your have and really good eco. same for PvP. Why not if you have the minerals? Upgrade only weapon in TvT Get carpece before melee Get range upgrade first if you play against metal Upgrade your muttas if you play against metal Upgrade in ZvZ if you can get away with it etc etc
There are 6 matchups
1) PvP
2) PvZ ZvP
3) PvT TvP
4) ZvT TvZ
5) TvT
6) ZvZ
Now if we're talking about both sides than there are 9. However that is not 9 matchups that is 6 matchups 3 of which have 2 sides.
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Calgary26003 Posts
I can't say why ranged attack isn't useful. I mean, theoretically if you're using Lurkers for a significant amount of time in the midgame, you should get it, but emperically I can tell you it's not that important. 
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What about ship weapons/armor? I see a lot of people upgrading air attack in PvZ for corsairs (and potentially carriers later). If you're going reaver/sair, is it worth it to upgrade air all the way to +3? Is it worth it to up armor? I don't know if anyone ever ups Air for Terran though, considering how rare wraiths, valks, and bcs are used.
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Calgary26003 Posts
Yes, +3 for Corsairs.
Yes, + Armor for ReaverSair (+Weapons is better if you aren't going to stay Reaver all game)
I agree that Terran air weapons are rare except in TvT, in which case you should max them.
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+1 obs armor for PvT
I'm kidding ofc, but I saw a game where someone did that, pretty awesome.
TvP: Very important. A zealot does 16 damage, 8 per w/e its called(like the goli does 20 dmg and each missle it shoots does 10 dmg and it shoots 2 at a time). Tanks already have +1 and the zealot dmg is divided into to so the attack is -1 twice. I don't feel like giving a good example( ) but i'm sure you could figure out how that is very important.
TvZ: Important, enough said. Get them asap. 3/3 rines pwn
TvT: I fyou get a fast +1 your siege tanks 2 hit tanks I think, not sure cuz they have that 1 armor already. Might be +2, but yeah there important to get.
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On February 05 2009 06:57 d(O.o)a wrote:
There are 6 matchups
1) PvP
2) PvZ ZvP
3) PvT TvP
4) ZvT TvZ
5) TvT
6) ZvZ
Now if we're talking about both sides than there are 9. However that is not 9 matchups that is 6 matchups 3 of which have 2 sides.
and PvZ + 8 other is?
And I disagree, there is 9 match ups. Correct me if Im wrong, but the fact still stands, you upgrade differently in PvZ and ZvP. For one, you dont have the same upgrades. lol
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is awesome32280 Posts
On February 05 2009 08:08 SCC-AlwaysGG wrote:+1 obs armor for PvT I'm kidding ofc, but I saw a game where someone did that, pretty awesome. TvP: Very important. A zealot does 16 damage, 8 per w/e its called(like the goli does 20 dmg and each missle it shoots does 10 dmg and it shoots 2 at a time). Tanks already have +1 and the zealot dmg is divided into to so the attack is -1 twice. I don't feel like giving a good example( ) but i'm sure you could figure out how that is very important. TvZ: Important, enough said. Get them asap. 3/3 rines pwn TvT: I fyou get a fast +1 your siege tanks 2 hit tanks I think, not sure cuz they have that 1 armor already. Might be +2, but yeah there important to get.
Nope, you need +2 attack on siege tanks so they kill in 2 hits instead of 3.
80 (+2) x 2 = 160 > 150 (tank armor)
75 (+1) x 2 = 150 < 150 (tank armor)
This of course doesn't take into account splash from other tanks being hit, scv repairing.
Anyway, +2 is crucial in big tank cleanings. + attack also helps goliaths against any sort of anti air in all mus.
Weird that no one mentioned about mech ups in TvZ, nowadays it's so popular.
Both attack and defence are very important. I think attack is always better than armor (means it should be upgraded first.
Also if you go old school reaver 3 gate push in PvZ (which was used quite a lot in Othello iirc) armor is more important than damage.
You need your goons to stay alive as long as you can so reavers deal damage. You don't benefit much from attack.
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On February 05 2009 08:15 Synneby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 06:57 d(O.o)a wrote:
There are 6 matchups
1) PvP
2) PvZ ZvP
3) PvT TvP
4) ZvT TvZ
5) TvT
6) ZvZ
Now if we're talking about both sides than there are 9. However that is not 9 matchups that is 6 matchups 3 of which have 2 sides. and PvZ + 8 other is? And I disagree, there is 9 match ups. Correct me if Im wrong, but the fact still stands, you upgrade differently in PvZ and ZvP. For one, you dont have the same upgrades. lol
I agree, there are nine matchups, it's not like you play TvZ the same as you play ZvT. It sounds wierd but still, it's how I see it.
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I kind of got an understanding of this when I played defense games.
Think of your total damage output from your army. lets say you have 10 goons.
10 x 20 = 200
Now, your damage output is 200, and now the comes a choice, would my damage output be greater if I spent money on another unit, or on an upgrade? well, lets do the math.
11 x 20 = 220 OR 10 x 22 = 220. In this case, it would not matter which choice you invested in, except that another dragoon would be more cost efficient.
Lets do another example with marines.
Lets say you have 10 again.
10 x 6 = 60
Now, upgrade or unit.
10 x 7 = 70 OR 11 x 6 = 66. In this case, the upgrade would be the better choice. However, you must always take into account the prices and time involved. You could probably spit out another 10 marines before the upgrade finishes without spending any gas.
Hope this helps, I was kind of in a hurry.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 05 2009 11:04 noxing wrote:
I kind of got an understanding of this when I played defense games.
Think of your total damage output from your army. lets say you have 10 goons.
10 x 20 = 200
Now, your damage output is 200, and now the comes a choice, would my damage output be greater if I spent money on another unit, or on an upgrade? well, lets do the math.
11 x 20 = 220 OR 10 x 22 = 220. In this case, it would not matter which choice you invested in, except that another dragoon would be more cost efficient.
Lets do another example with marines.
Lets say you have 10 again.
10 x 6 = 60
Now, upgrade or unit.
10 x 7 = 70 OR 11 x 6 = 66. In this case, the upgrade would be the better choice. However, you must always take into account the prices and time involved. You could probably spit out another 10 marines before the upgrade finishes without spending any gas.
Hope this helps, I was kind of in a hurry.
This is simple when playing with instant upgrades, but good luck getting any meaningful analysis after balancing battles, expansions, production potential, and upgrade timings.
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United States3824 Posts
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?"
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On February 05 2009 12:20 cgrinker wrote:
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?"
scouts aren't really that important, and they're there.
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Weapon's and armour is very important in all match up's I'd say, unless you're going for some sort of early han bang. I think it's crucial to have 2 forges when you get your nat up, or by the time you get your third in PvT. I never really get shields unless it's a hardcore macro game, like every base is taken and it's just a war of attrition and you got lots of money in the bank.
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On February 04 2009 23:50 Choros wrote:
It was Tasteless who said during a commentary fairly recently that + Shield affects regeneration thus it is upgraded last by pro protoss players.
Tasteless said that the shield upgrade made the recovery time quicker, which is wrong. It works like any other armor ugprade, except that shields take full damage from any type of attack and shields recover.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 05 2009 18:17 virLudens wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 12:20 cgrinker wrote:
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?" scouts aren't really that important, and they're there.
Scouts are very important when you want to be BM.
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On February 05 2009 12:20 cgrinker wrote:
You should get a calculator. And then do some calculate. And then roport back. And then ask yourself, "If they weren't important, would the be there at all?"
Is everything in a game important? Even Blizzard is only human.
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On February 05 2009 06:35 StRyKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 06:23 koreasilver wrote:
Well, in the case where they stim right when you engage they don't heal all of the marines.
Even if you do get the upgrades, a lot of Terran bio users micro so well nowadays that they will disengage before your lurkers can even touch the marines unless you flank them. If you do flank them, well then the number of lurker spines will kill the marines at once regardless of upgrades anyway. If you ever played high level ZvT you'll often notice that after a battle a good chunk of marines will have 2 HP left -- meaning that lurkers hit them twice but since they had +1armor they didn't die. Meaning, if you had upgraded attack, they'd all be dead. Missile attacks do matter quite significantly -- it's just that they often don't matter as much as melee attack, since often you have lings covering the marines anyway to take out that extra 2 HP. Not to mention, ultras get +3 per melee upgrade, and the preference of many zergs to eventually go ultraling negates the importance of missile attacks.
Yea, I often like to open with really fast +1 missile when I lurker/Ling. It helps a lot vs tanks too (since they have that inherent 1 armor to start- same for medics), even if they don't have armor ups on infantry it helps reduce medics' healing effectiveness.
Not to mention buildings die faster and SCV will be sure to die in 3 hits.
I usually don't get a +2 missile attack though.
PS- about chill's little cheat sheet, it doesn't address certain play styles in the matchups. such as sair/reaver, Mech vs Zerg, Mutalisk vs ??, etc.
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Calgary26003 Posts
Right, it addresses standard play.
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EPT
